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This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 05:24, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ace Starry[edit]

Clear vanity. Created by Astarry who has also made edits to List of magicians and Escapology advertising the same book. Identical edits by 69.119.198.146 were reverted. Aaron Brenneman 8 July 2005 15:34 (UTC)

  • With the book being listed at amazon as 385,106 in book sales, I can see why he'd be advertising it. Delete. --Scimitar 8 July 2005 15:53 (UTC)
  • Not Clear vanity. Just because I've taken the time to add information which may be of value to those using Wikipedia as an expert in my given field does not make it vanity. It's called generosity. I've been an established magician for thirty years in Idaho, California, and Texas, and a past president of the Idaho Magician's Guild, member of the Society of American Magician's, Texas Association of Magicians, The International Brotherhood of Magicians and The Magic Castle. Recently a friend of mine and I have opened The Magical Arts Centre in Hastings-on-Hudson, NY. My escape pictures from the burning rope are highly regarded as some of the best in escapology. As far as being an advertisment for my novel, nothing could be farther from the truth. THE MAGIC LIFE was ranked #72 on Amazon.com during the year of it's release, six years ago, right next to THE SEVEN HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE. It was a top ten finalist in the Hemmingway first novel competition and has been recommended by Classbrain.com as one of the most motivational novels for students. It was also published in Japanese by a major publisher Fuso Publishing. Noting it's current ranking and adding "I can see why he's advertising, is a personal smere. Not only am I not interested in selling books through your site, I know that it is something that wouldn't happen. Checking Amazon, the previous voter should have been noticed that it is unavailable. However used copies are from which I wouldn't make a red cent. And as for my informative links being reverted, the information I provided is for the reader not self promotion. I've been out of the escape business for over 15 years, simply because I'm too old and out of shape. However, I my escapes have been included in the Houdini Museum, honored by the Escape Artist Industy and those thousands of people that have visited my my escape web pages have written to me telling me how much they enjoy them. - Ace Starry
    • Writing an article about yourself is generally considered bad form, no matter how altruistic your intentions; read Wikipedia:Autobiographies (which I thought was a guideline, but is apparently classified as only an "essay") and WP:VAIN. I am sure Scimitar's comment was not intended as a personal smear; at first blush, it does look like you're using this article for self-promotion, and Amazon's sales rankings are a bit confusing, to me anyway, and have probably been misinterpreted here. (Anyone have any clue how they work? This question has come up elsewhere.) AиDя01DTALKEMAIL July 8, 2005 17:02 (UTC)
  • Comment Re Amazon sales listings - I think the number indicates where the book is on the sales popularity list, so the new Harry Potter is probably in the top ten, and no. 52,849 means 52,848 books sell better than no. 52,849. I think. --Mothperson 8 July 2005 17:33 (UTC)
  • My apologies if my comment was taken as a personal smear, it was certainly not intended that way. I just have a little bit of knowledge about the publishing industry from personal experience, and understand how hard it can be to market a book; I also know what some people try. As for your contention that it's unavailable, I just tried to order a new one and had no problems, so I'm not sure what you mean. --Scimitar 8 July 2005 18:12 (UTC)
    • Response - When I checked the book myself, it comes up with a disclaimer: "Availability: This title usually ships within 4 to 6 weeks. Please note that special order titles occasionally go out of print, or publishers run out of stock. These hard-to-find titles are not discounted and are subject to an additional charge of $1.99 per book due to the extra cost of ordering them. We will notify you within 2-3 weeks if we have trouble obtaining this title. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com."
  • Tentative Keep. Given the claims made here by Ace, he seems to pass WP:BIO muster. If the above claims could be added to the article along with sources, that would improve the article significantly. AиDя01DTALKEMAIL July 8, 2005 17:02 (UTC)
  • Now for his next trick.... THE AMAZING EXPANDING EGO! Delete, unless proof of decent Amazon placement, or some other evidence that this book made a significant impact, is given. Being a respected magician, just like being a respected member of most professions, is not gonna cut it. Dcarrano July 8, 2005 17:16 (UTC)
    • Wow, this certainly sounds like a personal attack. Though I'm not certain that he realized that I'm something of a newcomer to this, let me enlighten us as to what I discovered by reading some of the guidelines in Wikipedia:
    • Please do not bite the newcomers
      • Understand that newcomers are both needed by and of value to the community. By empowering newcomers, we improve the diversity of knowledge, opinions and ideals on Wikipedia, enhance its value and preserve its neutrality and integrity as a resource.
      • Assume good faith is a fundamental principle on any wiki, including Wikipedia. As we allow anyone to edit, it follows that we assume that most people who edit are trying to help the project, not hurt it. If this weren't true, a project like Wikipedia would be doomed from the beginning.
      • So, when you can reasonably assume that something is a well-intentioned error, correct it without just reverting it or labeling it as vandalism. When you disagree with someone, remember that they probably believe that they are helping the project. Consider using talk pages to explain yourself, and give others the opportunity to do the same. This can avoid misunderstandings and prevent problems from escalating. Especially, remember to be patient with newcomers, who will be unfamiliar with Wikipedia's culture and rules.
      • Assume good faith on the part of the newcomer. They most likely want to help out. Give them a chance!
      • Remember Hanlon's Razor. Behavior that appears malicious to experienced Wikipedians is more likely due to ignorance of our expectations and rules. Even if you're 100% sure that someone is a worthless, no-good, low-down scum-sucking Internet troll, vandal, or worse, conduct yourself as if they're not. By being calm, interested, and respectful, your dignity is uplifted, and you further our project.
      • Remember that you were once a newcomer also. Treat others as (if possible, better than) you would be treated if you had just arrived at Wikipedia.
  • Delete. A notable performing magician would make it into the news media reasonably often, for reviews, show listings, and the like. LexisNexis finds basically nothing for "ace starry", aside from some 1999 listings for book signings and shows at local bookstores in Texas and Louisiana. CDC (talk) 8 July 2005 21:49 (UTC)
    • Response - I'm not familiar with the extent of LexisNexis coverage. I've had numerous articles written about my appearances over the years: book reviews, reviews of appearances from comedy clubs and bookstores, mentions in the magic trade journals, Magic Magazine and Genii Magazine, One article in the mainstream that I can point you to references me as an expert escape artist in Maxim Magazine Article, Escape From Restraints - November, 1998. page 34. I'm mentioned in two doctoral papers that I know of, Florida State University, 2003 - The Secret Lives of Adults: Stories, By Ryan Walsh, "I found my feather in The Karate Kid, and he found his in escape artists like Houdini and Ace Starry."The other is called Literature at Lightspeed found at http://www.lespagesauxfolles.ca/Academic/chap02.htm which mentions the earliest literature on the web.User:astarry 12 July 2005
  • Weak Delete. I have only a passing familiarity with performance magic, so I'm not an authority; however a Google search for "'Ace Starry + magician" turns up only 356 hits, most of those small blurbs about his apparently semi-notable book. I'm leaning towards delete if only because he wrote the EnWiki article himself, but if it stays I won't rend my clothes in grief. Fernando Rizo 8 July 2005 22:39 (UTC)
    • Response - I wasn't really trying to "toot my own horn" when I added to your page. However, you've created a situation in which I feel the necessity to "be bold" as the guidelines suggest. While a search on Google using search terms "Ace Starry" and "magician" turns up "only 356" hits, (the guidelines suggest that 100 hits is reasonable) a search under "Ace Starry" brought up 722 hits. Almost half are referenced to the novel, but as is suggested in the guidelines an author who demostrates sales of over 5000 demonstrates sufficient public interest for inclusion. Though I have no way to demostrate exactly how many copies I've sold, my Japanese publisher alone may have sold that many copies. Note that many of the pages that come up are quotations and reviews in Japanese. Many are mentions from professional escape artist's pages. Some are fan linking pages.
    • It should also be of note that many of the pages include quotations from my book, done outside the US. User:astarry 12 July 2005
    • Among the URLs from Google, these should be notable:

Lexigram created for the name Ace Starry http://www.goodworksonearth.org/acestarry.html Guide to Essential Reading: Philosophical Fiction - http://www.sminkworks.com/books.htm SEED Related Books - http://www.reiki.com/seedbook.html Best Motivational Novel - http://www.classbrain.com/artaskcb/publish/article_108.shtml Literary Leaps Recommendations - http://literaryleaps.com/leapaisle.cfm?aislenumber=3&lastfound=461 Performers.net Formum - Good Performing Related Books - http://www.performers.net/forums/printthread.php?s=23badb213a62bd8ffe39c1aa94002919&threadid=1729The Polite Side of Magic User Forum - http://www.politemagic.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=MagicTalk;action=display;num=1026685677 Quoteland .. Good Beginnings -- http://forum.quoteland.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=586192041&f=436194441&m=1391917162&r=4891944176Site Rated on Illumirate - http://www.illumirate.com/opinions.cfm?cat_id=426784&item_id=32154 The Striatjacket Bibliography page- http://sj.blacksteel.com/media/books.cgi Misc. Writing - News & Yahoos - http://www.mw-land.com/news.shtml Fan Site - My Favorite Sites - http://scott.endsley.com/sites.htm Escapoligists.net - http://www.evenden-jones.co.uk/escapology/Links.asp The Houdini and Escapology Page - http://community-2.webtv.net/rsrestraints/Houdini/ Escape Artist Cinthia Morrison's Page - http://www.palmbeachweb.com/boldwolf/links.htm Escape Artist Weasel Dandaw's Page -http://weaseldandaw.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/page7.html Entertainers and Escapologists - http://www.entsweb.co.uk/entertainers/escapologists/Prophesies, Ancient Mysteries and Cyberspace Adventures - http://www.biddle-audenreed.com/SP2.html Google Answers: One's Purpose and Identity - http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=403322 Volunteer Service & Resource Project - http://www.geocities.com/givestore/wblnk13.html SF and Fantasy Authors Reference Page - http://www.sflovers.org/Reference/books/authors2.html

  • Delete Writing an autobiography must be POV--Porturology 9 July 2005 05:07 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.
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