Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abigail Folger

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Charles_Manson#Tate_murders. Two other articles are discussed in the nomination, but they haven't been discussed by other participants so this close applies to Folger only, with no prejudice to relisting the others separately at any time. A generalised article on the Tate murders seems like a good idea, but of course is beyond the scope of this particular discussion. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 07:13, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Abigail Folger[edit]

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Simply put, this biography of a crime victim seems to fail WP:VICTIM ("The victim... had a large role within a well-documented historic event. The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role"). All sources I see mention her in passing; if she hasn't been killed by Manson, her life up to that point wouldn't make her notable. Her membership in a prominent family doesn't matter (notability is not inherited), and claims of civil rights activity are unreferenced. What remains is the short section on her death (Abigail_Folger#Death), which per the policy ("A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person.") should be merged to Charles_Manson#Tate_murders (now, the Tate murders article should likely be split off into a subarticle, but that's another issue). This same rationale is also valid for Jay Sebring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ("an American hair stylist") and Steven Parent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ("Delivery boy, salesman") who have even less inherent notability (the other two victims were actors and seem to pass WP:ACTOR, so they are not part of this discussion). To recapitulate: Tate murders may be notable (through this is not being discussed); but three out of its five victims are not (fail WP:VICTIM) and should be merged back to the Charles_Manson#Tate_murders. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:14, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. ^BE _CK ^Y _SA ^{Y L}E _S 16:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ^BE _CK ^Y _SA ^{Y L}E _S 16:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ^BE _CK ^Y _SA ^{Y L}E _S 16:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 10:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I didn't find a whole lot of sources (as nom suggested I would not) that talk about her in much more detail beyond the "coffee heiress" who was one of those killed. The most in depth pages come from the murder/serial killer/crime fan [?] sites. (I don't know what to call them. Kind of ghoulish, but perhaps they count?) There also appears to be a smalltime play about her. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 07:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NORTH AMERICA¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:17, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/redirect to whatever article winds up being about the Tate Murders (I agree that deserves a separate article). I agree that Abigail Folger is not notable except for being a victim of that highly notable crime. Same with Steven Parent, even more so, if someone wants to nominate it. IMO Wojciech Frykowski was not separately notable either. But I disagree about Jay Sebring; he was probably notable even without his connection with that crime. --MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NOTE: I just noticed that the nominator placed AfD tags at the articles Jay Sebring and Steven Parent, referencing this AfD discussion. I have deleted those tags. Those two articles were not properly nominated for deletion, merely mentioned in an AfD about a different article. If you want to nominate Steven Parent for AfD I would support that. I have spent the past hour or so improving the references at the Jay Sebring article, and I think his independent notability is clearly demonstrated. In any case this is not the venue for discussing possible deletion of those two articles. Notice that both Rhododendrites and I assumed that Abigail Folger was the only article under discussion here. --MelanieN (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to generalized article on the Tate Murders. If Folger had died in her sleep at the time she died instead of being murdered, we would not take any notice of her. She is notable for being murdered, other things in her life do not add up to notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or delete for now until more info is available for individuality Cec2020 (talk) 01:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we follow WP:GNG or WP:42, we'd have to go with a technical keep. Her life as a celebrity and debutante was well-established in reliable sources. Bearian (talk) 12:22, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Which ones, to be precise? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.