Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abbotts Mill, Delaware

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Abbotts Mill, Delaware

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Abbotts Mill, Delaware is not an unincorporated community. Abbotts Mill is just that, a mill alongside Abbotts Mill Pond. The mill itself has been turned into Abbotts Mill Nature Center, but it is not an unincorporated community as marked. A mill alongside a pond is certainly not notable. State of Delaware Historical Marker - Abbotts Mill Superman7515 (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delaware Nature Society Abbotts Mill Website Superman7515 (talk) 18:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, Abbotts Mill is not a community but the site of a former grist mill. At the least, the article should be edited and expanded to reflect this.19:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The article can be moved to Abbotts Mill Nature Center and turned into an article describing the history of the mill and the nature center. I do not believe it to be an actual community. Dough 48 72 19:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The Geographic Names Information System lists Abbotts Mill as a populated place, which would indicate that this is in fact a community. I wouldn't entirely object to merging it into an article on the mill (which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and therefore notable in its own right), since there appears to be far more coverage of the mill than any other aspect of the community, but it should still be kept somewhere. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Other than GNIS, what other coverage is there of this being a community? Other than unreliable websites that use the GNIS information directly, such as Hometown Locator, no other sites list Abbott's Mill as being a community. No site run by the State of Delaware, Sussex County, or the parks and nature sites that review this area make any mention of the area being a community. Superman7515 (talk) 01:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep it appears that it once was a community, and whether or not it currently it is populated it is certainly notable due to the historical mill.[1] Just because sources on its status as a community are limited (on the Internet at least) doesn't mean they don't exist. WP:Notability says once notable, always notable. I would recommend seeing if the article could be fleshed out as is. If, down the road, it becomes apparent that it's more appropriate at an article about the historic site instead, it can be moved. There's also ample precedent for having articles about a communityy in addition to any historical sites within that community. There's no harm in keeping it for the time being and letting interested editors try to improve it.DCmacnut <> 19:51, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Looking at the g-satellite image of this place, it does seem to be a distinct population center, if not very large. Sure it might be dominated by the mill, but there's still a neighborhood that's separate from it. --Oakshade (talk) 20:09, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Although there are houses and housing developments in the area, none of them refer to themselves as "Abbotts' Mill" or being located in "Abbotts Mill". The state refers to the area as "near Milford".Wkharrisjr (talk) 21:05, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the housing development near Abbott's Mill (Blair's Pond Estates, in reference to the other pond near Abbott's Mill Pond, Blair's Pond Estates housing development) is what is being used as the reference for the community, again the article would be wrong, because that housing development is located in Kent County and the GNIS info states the supposed community is in Sussex County, so those units couldn't be considered in the decision of whether Abbotts Mill is an unincorporated community in Sussex County. Those homes, and those around Abbott's Mill, are considered by those of us in the area as in Williamsville, which really is an unincorporated community in Kent County. Superman7515 (talk) 01:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Per these comments and below, it does seem the designation as a site as opposed to a community is correct. I still advocate "keep" as the site is notable. --Oakshade (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another link to a State of Delaware website, which again mentions it being near Milford, but makes no mention of a community having ever been there or being there now, that is or was referred to as Abbotts Mill... http://history.delaware.gov/preservation/HistoricPlaces/AbbotsMill.shtml On a side note, if this is kept, how hard is it to get the article changed to the proper name of Abbott's Mill with the apostrophe? I honestly don't know as I've never tried changing an article title before. Superman7515 (talk) 01:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I added a bit of NRHP info and set up redirect from Abbott's Mill to the article, for now. The article can be moved to either Abbott's Mill over redirect, easily, or to Abbotts Mill Nature Center and turned into an article describing the history of the mill and the nature center. It looks like it is not actually a community, so it should be moved, and the settlement infobox deleted. I've included an NRHP infobox further below. This might better have been a Requested Move discussion, not an AFD. --do ncr am 02:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OK, this may be a notable historic place. But trying to get this in as an "unincorporated community" under WP:NPLACE is the weakest of all arguments. As the Delaware website notes, "The mill is a two-and-a-half-story frame structure". Not a delete, because it might qualify as notable in its own right as an historic landmark, without the nonsense that it is or ever was a community of some sort. I've considered User:Dcmacnut's argument that it might have been a community once, based on [[2]], but I'm not finding it-- reference to a mill and some outbuildings where people worked is all I see. Like Dcmacnut, I think there's an argument that it's notable as an historic site. But forget GNIS as proof of this as an independent community. GNIS counts so many things as so-called populated places that are definitely not "unincorporated communities"-- mobile home parks, neighborhoods, subdivisions, etc.-- that it can't be taken seriously when it comes to whether a place is notable under WP:OUTCOMES. If you live in the US, you can type in your home county [3] and see for yourself how many of these non-communities turn up. GNIS got 607 so-called populated places in Sussex County, of which a fraction are actual towns, in Category:Towns in Sussex County, Delaware. We went through this GNIS thing not long ago with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waltlou Mobile Home Park. As noted, this might qualify as a state-maintained tourist site or landmark, but the idea that it's a little country town just doesn't mesh with what the State of Delaware calls it. Mandsford 04:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as a NRHP site. The unincorporated place is quite strange - but since it is in Delaware, it has a lot of company. In Delaware they just don't do towns and cities like they do in other states. See New Castle County, Delaware for something of any explanation, but I think it comes down to the small area and a 350 year history where every wide spot in the road had its own name. Then in New Castle County, they almost all use Wilmington as their postal address! BTW, I will get a photo of the place, but it might take awhile. Smallbones (talk) 06:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can get a street view by typing in "Abbot's Mill Nature Center" on Google maps, on Abbot's Mill Road. Equal treatment for Delaware, I say, no more, no less. Mandsford 02:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Though that would explain why Delaware has so many unincorporated communities. In most other states they're all notable, but there's only about 30 per county and rarely more than 120 for large counties. I had always wondered why such a small county had over 600 populated places. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 07:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I was trying to explain with many of the others that have been created on here that aren't communities but are listed in the GNIS. Such as the different intersections that are "Whatever Crossroads" in the middle of farm land with no houses around or Old Furnace which is another NRHP site that GNIS has listed as a community. In reality it is an actual old furnace, Deep Creek Furnace, that was put on NRHP in 1977. I've lived here my whole life and Smallbones is right that pretty much every wide spot in the road had a name at one point or another. You look at PA and NJ where there is no unincorporated land in the whole state because it is all broken down into townships, etc. In Delaware, you can drive for miles and not be someplace, so they named everything. Superman7515 (talk) 12:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As the person who originally proposed the deletion, I would have no problem or objection to this being moved to a more appropriate topic of it as a NRHP site about the mill and nature center if we can get a consensus on that. I just clearly disagree with it being labeled an unincorporated community. Superman7515 (talk) 12:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Move to where? — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 13:31, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. No need to move but can be reworded as an article about an NRHP site. The person who proposed it as an article about a community could not even manage to find a population figure. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 13:31, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually what's documented is that it is named "Abbott's Mill" (with possessive apostrophe), and there are no other such places, so "Delaware" is not needed as disambiguation. I think it should be moved over redirect to Abbott's Mill (leaving redirect from current name). And the unincorporated community stuff comes out of the article. N'est-ce pas? --do ncr am 17:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's no population figure because most unincorporated communities in the US don't have census data, even larger ones with post offices, so there's no way to get reliable population figures for them. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 18:20, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.