Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011 LBC United Football League

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep all. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2011 LBC United Football League[edit]

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It is not a notable league. Since this is a league within the Philippines, and having done a check, there is no league system/pyramid in the coutnry and therefore isn't the top flight and is just an 'isolated' league. It's also not overseen/governed by a recognized FA. Banana Fingers (talk) 11:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because these are clubs that play in this league and they are not notable. The first four clubs listed are also recreations of previous articles (under different titles) that have been deleted via PROD due to failing notability and lack of coverage.

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Banana Fingers (talk) 11:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep see comment here. Stu.W UK (talk) 02:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Like I've said above, this league isn't governed by a recognized body. When I say 'recognized', they aren't members of of the Philippine Football Federation or any of its member associations such as the National Capital Region F.A.. So your comment that this league runs the highest, second highest and is the successor to the Filipino Premier League is incorrect. I believe it's also irrelevant if their official website states that they have aspirations to play in the AFC Champions. Banana Fingers (talk) 11:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the same thing, and a lot of the website is bereft of any sort of link to the PFF. Two things changed my mind though. One is that if you go here and look at the image under the word 'board', one of the images in the cycle is the logo of the PFF with the words 'The United Football League is sanctioned by the Philippine Football Federation' underneath. The second is that this article talks about players not being able to play for their country if playing in a league not recognised by FIFA. It also says that the captain of the filipino team plays for Kaya Futbol Club. Taken together I felt that was enough to persuade me they were , an official league. If you can point to something that contradicts this, I'm happy to change my mind. Considering the PFF's website is a pdf about tickets for a match earlier this month, I think it's safe to say it isn't easy to get clarity! Stu.W UK (talk) 12:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but that little photo underneath the word 'board' saying that they are sanction by the PFF... I'm not buying it. Surely if they were sanctioned/recognied by the PFF, the governing body of this league would at least be an associate member of the PFF. Heck, they should at least be a probationary member of the PFF, but no evidence is found regarding this. The group behind this league are the same ones who have put directly on their website that they intend to get recognized by the AFC so the clubs in their league could qualify for the AFC Champions League. For a league that's still very new and considering the level of Philippine football as a whole, that's some ambition they've got. And by saying they're sanctioned by the PFF would probably be their way of trying to show some credibility. At the end of the day, there is no evidence they are. Banana Fingers (talk) 14:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment. Regarding the part about players not being able to play for their country if playing in a league not recognized by FIFA... that has nothing to do with this. That's talking about the Philippines captain having the possibility of being barred for playing for the Philippines if he plays for a club in Indonesia "rogue league", the Indonesia Premier League. Banana Fingers (talk) 14:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I researched the team Sunken Garden United and found references in prominent Philippine newspapers. This team is associated with the University of the Philippines which is one of the top two or three universities in the Philippines (ie equivalent to Harvard or Yale or Oxford etc). My sense is it's a topic of growing importance in the Philippines (since "football" or what is called "soccer" in the US) is starting to catch on big in this country -- it's been only a decade or so, but enthusiasm is growing. There are references -- but there is a general unfamiliarity with Philippine newspapers and magazines by Wikipedians writing about this topic. If one of the teams is notable, then the league as a whole is surely notable; not sure about individual players though.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The article about the League, plus the teams within the League, are not well done yet, but the fault isn't that the topic isn't notable; rather, they need substantial trimming and referencing.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment. About the criticism that the league isn't structured well -- there are published sources suggesting that it puts on a month-long annual tournament entitled World Cup Pilipinas here. The Philippine Securities & Exchange Commission registers teams as "athletic organizations"; there are corporate sponsors; imo, looks officially like a league.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:20, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"If one of the teams is notable, then the league as a whole is surely notable". This seems quite odd. One team is notable all of a sudden the entire league is? This "World Cup Pilipinas" has nothing to do with the United Football League. The Philippine Securities & Exchange Commission may register teams as "athletic organizations". It doesn't all the teams are actually registered. Banana Fingers (talk) 14:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, teams play in a league. If a particular team is notable, then wouldn't a much higher entity -- the league -- be notable as well? And aren't you applying a similar (top-down) logic: if a league isn't notable, then all the teams within the league aren't notable as well? I think they're all connected, and I think you'll agree. Plus I found numerous references (even more exist) for both the league as well as individual teams, suggesting that Philippine sportswriters, for prominent publications (Sun Star, Inquirer, Philippine Star), think these subjects are important enough to write about.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. The governing body of this league is independent (not a recognized body). Therefore it's like saying, I set up a competition/league (it would be a non-notable competition), and I was able to get a world renown team like Arsenal for example to play in it. It doesn't really make my competition notable. Banana Fingers (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as above, both Stu.W UK and Tomwsulcer have convinced me of the worth of these articles. Giant Snowman 14:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The league is only 4 years old, but notable and receives considerable national coverage in that part of the world. The teams have substantial sponsors. I don't believe editors should out-of-hand delete the Philippine national Air Force and Navy teams for being "non-notable". --UnicornTapestry (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just had a look through the website of the Philippine Inquirer. A quick search reveals a number of articles, including this which states "sanctioned by the Philippine Football Federation and the National Capital Region Football Association, the tournament is organized by the Football Alliance and the United Football Club Association." There's also this, which describes it as "The country’s first ever professional, corporate-sponsored football league". Stu.W UK (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Sanctioned by the Philippine Football Federation....." That author probably just had a look at the league's website and saw that they're supposedly sanctioned by the PFF and concluded that they must also be sanctioned by the NCRFA? lol. Seriously. That's the same journalist who can't even give the public the correct name of the mother of Philippines international Neil Etheridge. Etheridge's mother's name is Melissa here, Melinda here, and Merlinda here. Banana Fingers (talk) 19:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment. "The country's first ever professional....." No it's not. Philippine football is still amateur. That journalist's line of thinking is, corporate sponsors = professional. Banana Fingers (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That same article explicitly refers to the "country’s first foray in play-for-pay football". Now you may argue whether that merits it being called professional or semi-professional, but I'd say it pretty much rules out the idea they're amateur. As for mocking the journalism of the paper this describes it as the most widely read, circulated and awarded newspaper in the Philippines. You may not consider the standard of Filipino journalism in English to be particularly high, but for establishing notability it's the best you're likely to find. Stu.W UK (talk) 20:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. —Stu.W UK (talk) 20:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here from early October 2010? (no date given), "It was also announced that the First Division clubs will be receiving much higher allowances this season...." Key word is 'allowances'. It's not wages or salaries. That doesn't make the club and especially the players semi-pro, let alone fully pro. Banana Fingers (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It says the clubs get allowances, not the players. I would read that as meaning they get more from the companies that back them or from a central league pot of money. The players get paid to play football, thus it isn't amateur. Or am I missing something? Stu.W UK (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The clubs get these allowances and then it would be up to the clubs how they allocate them to the players and to anyone else within club. Banana Fingers (talk) 07:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I was dismayed that you had to be asked to notify the original author of some of the articles and you didn't bother to notify the original author or major editors of this one (LBC) at all. Next time, please notify parties that might have an interest. Thank you. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 21:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? Having just checked, I'll admit that I forgot about the creator of the article LBC United Football League and that is my bad, I apologize for that. But for everything else (the club aticles), it's the same author who created them all, and I did notify that person. Even before you did. I assumed it was the same user who created all these articles. Banana Fingers (talk) 07:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough; that is eminently understandable. No problem, then. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 14:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. Assuming the league is professional, which it probably is, that means the teams competing, the players playing and the seasons played are notable. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 02:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly your assumption is wrong. How can the likes of Philippine internationals Emelio Caligdong and Ian Araneta be full time footballers when they're active members within the Philippine Air Force? It's simple, they're not full time footballers therefore the players and the league isn't pro. Banana Fingers (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly they're not amateurs either since they're getting paid (no matter how their compensation is called). This is akin to European basketball leagues before FIBA allowed "professionals" to compete in their tournaments. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 11:47, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's like saying an amateur boxer who competes at the Olympics is counted as a professional because they're getting allowances from their boxing association/Olympic association. Banana Fingers (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And we have articles for them. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 12:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question: I haven't read the guidelines of Wikiproject Football but isn't this article pass WP:GNG already? --Bluemask (talk) 10:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This doesn't have a green or blue check mark, but the relevant page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability states that:
  - For leagues:"All leagues that are a country's highest level are assumed notable."
  - For clubs: "All teams that have played in the national cup (or the national level of the league structure in countries where no cup exists) are assumed to meet WP:N criteria."
    - The relevant clause is the one within the parenthesis.
- Since there's probably no other football league that has a higher profile in the Philippines, this should satisfy that criterion. The article obviously passes WP:GNG, though.–HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 12:12, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it meets WP:GNG, and in its current, more referenced state I'd say it does, no other criteria matter Stu.W UK (talk) 12:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Article's subject passes WP:GNG, that in and of itself should be enough. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.