User talk:Widmun
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Nomination of Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali for deletion[edit]
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. JTtheOG (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
May 2017[edit]
Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia, as you did to Relationship between religion and science. While objective prose about beliefs, organisations, people, products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for soapboxing, advertising or promotion. Thank you. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Conflict of interest in Wikipedia[edit]
Since you are now starting to add references to Al-Ali's works in other articles, I am initiating the conflict of interest discussion with you. I work on conflict of interest issues here in Wikipedia, along with my regular editing. I'm giving you notice of our Conflict of Interest guideline and Terms of Use, and will have some comments and requests for you below.
Hello, Widmun. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places, or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a COI may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic, and it is important when editing Wikipedia articles that such connections be completely transparent. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. In particular, we ask that you please:
- avoid editing or creating articles related to you and your family, friends, school, company, club, or organization, as well as any competing companies' projects or products;
- instead, you are encouraged to propose changes on the Talk pages of affected article(s) (see the {{request edit}} template);
- when discussing affected articles, disclose your COI (see WP:DISCLOSE);
- avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or to the website of your organization in other articles (see WP:SPAM);
- exercise great caution so that you do not violate Wikipedia's content policies.
In addition, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation (see WP:PAID).
Please take a few moments to read and review Wikipedia's policies regarding conflicts of interest, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, sourcing and autobiographies. Thank you.
Comments and requests[edit]
Wikipedia is a widely-used reference work and managing conflict of interest is essential for ensuring the integrity of Wikipedia and retaining the public's trust in it. As in academia, COI is managed here in two steps - disclosure and a form of peer review. Please note that there is no bar to being part of the Wikipedia community if you want to be involved in articles where you have a conflict of interest; there are just some things we ask you to do (and if you are paid, some things you need to do).
Disclosure is the most important, and first, step. While I am not asking you to disclose your identity (anonymity is strictly protecting by our WP:OUTING policy) would you please disclose if you have some connection with Al-Ali, directly or through a third party (e.g. a PR agency or the like)? You can answer how ever you wish (giving personally identifying information or not), but if there is a connection, please disclose it. After you respond (and you can just reply below), I can walk you through how the "peer review" part happens and then, if you like, I can provide you with some more general orientation as to how this place works. Please reply here, just below, to keep the discussion in one place. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for engaging with my page. I will not beat around the bush or waste your time and mine. The honest straight answer is that I am Him....and add that I have no financial gain whatsoever out of it...I don't receive any kind of royalty from selling the books ,neither have I sold my rights to the publisher and you can make sure by asking Amazon if you have such access. Not only that but I spent many thousands of dollars on publication charges . The books prices you see go all to the publisher ( CreateSpace of Amazon) for the simple reason that I want my books to be sold cheap and within the grasp of more hands. I am sure you have by now searched me on the web and thank you for providing me with 2 more references I was unaware of and providing ISBN nos. for the others...you might find more by removing my hyphenated middle name...I think the page in its shape now requires more factual information about my DOB and personal, degrees, urological innovations (all in journals and medical books referred to) , scientific activities, academic career and decorations, if acceptable. Regards--Widmun (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for your note and for your honesty. It is delightful to have such an experienced surgeon working in Wikipedia. I hope that when the article about you gets settled, that you will contribute to other topics where you have expertise.
- So... per WP:COISELF, you have a conflict of interest with regard to content about you in Wikipedia.
- As I noted above, there are two pieces to COI management in WP. The first is disclosure, which you have now initially done. The second is a form of peer review. This piece may seem a bit strange to you at first, but if you think about it, it will make sense. In Wikipedia, editors can immediately publish their work, with no intervening publisher or standard peer review -- you can just create an article, click save, and voilà there is a new article, and you can go into any article, make changes, click save, and done. No intermediary - no publisher, no "editors" as that term is used in the real world. And no author at the top of the page, so that readers know who wrote an article, and can read the article in light of who the authors are. And likewise, no COI disclosures on a given article, as there are in scientific publications. So the bias that conflicted editors ~tend~ to have, can go right into the article. Conflicted editors are also really driven to try to make the article fit with their external interest. If they edit directly, this often leads to big battles with other editors.
- What we ask editors to do who have a COI and want to work on articles where their COI is relevant, is:
- a) if you want to create an article relevant to a COI you have, create the article as a draft through the WP:AFC process, disclose your COI on the Talk page, and then submit the draft article for review (the AfC process sets up a nice big button for you to click when it is ready) so it can be reviewed before it publishes; (too late for this!) and
- b) And if you want to change content in any existing article on a topic where you have a COI, we ask you to propose content on the Talk page for others to review and implement before it goes live, instead of doing it directly yourself, and to disclose your COI when you do that. You can just do that simply. "I wrote the following book, and I would like to add it to the list here." Or "I would like to add this information about myself to the article -- what do folks think?" Please be aware that for everything in Wikipedia -- especially for biographies of living people, must be sourced to a reliable source, and that source needs to be cited. Please see WP:RS for the definition of "reliable source" for most topics, and WP:MEDRS for the definition of "reliable source" for anything about health. Please also see WP:BLP which is the policy governing articles about living people.
- What we ask editors to do who have a COI and want to work on articles where their COI is relevant, is:
- By following those "peer review" processes, editors with a COI can contribute where they have a COI, and the integrity of WP can be protected. We get some great contributions that way, when conflicted editors take the time to understand what kinds of proposals are OK under the content policies. (which I will say more about, if you want).
- I hope that makes sense to you.
- I want to add here that per the WP:COI guideline, if you want to directly update simple, uncontroversial facts (for example, correcting the facts about your date of birth) you can do that directly in the article, without making an edit request on the Talk page. Just be sure to always cite a reliable source for the information you change, and make sure it is simple, factual, uncontroversial content. If you are not sure if something is uncontroversial, please ask at the Talk page.
- Will you please agree to follow the peer review processes going forward, when you want to work on the article about you or any article where your COI is relevant? Do let me know, and if anything above doesn't make sense I would be happy to discuss. And if you want me to quickly go over the content policies, I can do that. Just let me know. Thanks! Jytdog (talk)
- Thank you for your comprehensive discussion which is enviable. Expanding my activity on Wikipedia at this time is not on my schedule, but I might in the future. You might have noticed that I created many pages in English and Arabic over the last 8 yrs. or so. You appreciate that I have other duties to comply with, full up to my brows. For the time being I only want my page to get through with your help, you seem to be more dedicated to Wikipedia than myself. Regards --Widmun (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- That is fine of course. 22:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comprehensive discussion which is enviable. Expanding my activity on Wikipedia at this time is not on my schedule, but I might in the future. You might have noticed that I created many pages in English and Arabic over the last 8 yrs. or so. You appreciate that I have other duties to comply with, full up to my brows. For the time being I only want my page to get through with your help, you seem to be more dedicated to Wikipedia than myself. Regards --Widmun (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
indenting and signing[edit]
Quick note on the logistics of discussing things on Talk pages, which are essential for everything that happens here.
In Talk page discussions, we "thread" comments by indenting - when you reply to someone, you put a colon ":" in front of your comment, and the WP software converts that into an indent; if the other person has indented once, then you indent twice by putting two colons "::" which the WP software converts into two indents, and when that gets ridiculous you reset back to the margin (or "outdent") by putting this {{od}} in front of your comment. This also allows you to make it clear if you are also responding to something that someone else responded to if there are more than two people in the discussion; in that case you would indent the same amount as the person just above you in the thread. I hope that all makes sense.
And at the end of the comment, please "sign" by typing exactly four (not 3 or 5) tildas "~~~~" which the WP software converts into a date stamp and links to your talk and user pages. That is how we know who said what. I know this is insanely archaic and unwieldy, but this is the software environment we have to work on. Sorry about that.
And you don't need to notify me on my talk page. This page is on my WP:Watchlist so I can see when you (or anybody) writes something here. Jytdog (talk) 22:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Jytdog (talk) ...What is next ...How do I proceed from here--Widmun (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
draft[edit]
- Sorry that you felt this way , something I didn't intend...but the reason is perhaps that I have hurriedly read your earlier comment of 9 May. and missed its valuable information.
Below is a revised manuscript of the page, by adding factual information about my career, for your kind attention:
Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali (also Muneer Al-Ali),born 18 May 1944 in Al-Hindiya, Iraq. He is a urologic surgeon who also has authored and translated books about the relationship between faith and science between Arabic and English.[1]
- Medical career
He holds two degrees, a Medical Bachelor from the Medical College, University of Baghdad, Iraq, in 1966, and a Fellowship of Royal College Surgeons, from the Royal College of Surgeons, Edinburgh, UK, in 1974.
In 1975, Al-Ali was appointed as a consultant surgeon at Erbil Military Hospital in Erbil, Iraq, before moving in 1976 to Al-Rasheed Military Hospital,Baghdad as a consultant urological and transplantation surgeon in the Urology & Transplantation Dept. and headed the department in 1982, until he migrated to Libya in 1994, then to New Zealand in 1997. He settled in the United Kingdom since 1999 .
He is a pioneer in renal transplantation in Iraq and the Arab world in the seventies, and co-founder in 1987 of the Middle East Society for Organ Transplantation (MESOT), and a member of its scientific committee. He introduced surgical procedures and treatments for some challenging urological diseases and major trauma.In 1997 he published a series of case studies of recto-urethral fistulas caused by trauma.[2]
- Academic career
• Professor of Urology, The Military Medical College, Baghdad, lraq (1987-1991).
• Vice-President, Urology Board, Iraqi Commission for Medical Specialization, which grants the degree of Fellowship of the Iraqi Board of Urology (FIBU)(1986-1993).
• Program Director & Supervisor (Urology), AI-Rasheed Centre for Higher Medical Education, Baghdad, Iraq (1986-1993).
• Clinical senior lecturer,Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago , New Zealand (1998-1999).
• Affiliate scholar,New College, University of Edinburgh, UK (since 2012).
- Publications
- Al-Ali, M; Wahbi, S; Twaij, H; Al-Badr, A (April 2003). "Tribulus terrestris: preliminary study of its diuretic and contractile effects and comparison with Zea mays". Journal of ethnopharmacology. 85 (2–3): 257–60. PMID 12639749.
- Al-Ali, MA; Kashmoula, DM; Haddad, LF (June 2002). "Surgically treated transitional cell carcinomas of the bladder. The role of radical surgery". Saudi medical journal. 23 (6): 695–9. PMID 12070550.
- Al-Ali, M; Al-Alousi, W; Al-Shukri, M (September 2001). "Serum sodium changes during and after transuretheral prostatectomy". Saudi medical journal. 22 (9): 765–8. PMID 11590448.
- Al-Ali, M; Al-Hajaj, R (March 2001). "Johanson's staged urethroplasty revisited in the salvage treatment of 68 complex urethral stricture patients: presentation of total urethroplasty". European urology. 39 (3): 268–71. PMID 11275717.
- Al-Ali, M; Samalia, KP (June 2000). "Genitourinary carcinoid tumors: initial report of ureteral carcinoid tumor". The Journal of urology. 163 (6): 1864–5. PMID 10799204.
- Agarwal, Sanjiv; Al-Ali, M; de Souza, Nandita M. (2000). "The Bladder Neck, Urethra, and Seminal Tract". In de Souza, Nandita M. (ed.). Endocavitary MRI of the pelvis. Amsterdam: Harwood Academic. ISBN 9789058231000.
- Al-Ali, M; Salman, G; Rasheed, A; Al-Ani, G; Al-Rubaiy, S; Alwan, A; Al-Shaikli, A (September 1999). "Phenoxybenzamine in the management of neuropathic bladder following spinal cord injury". The Australian and New Zealand journal of surgery. 69 (9): 660–3. doi:10.1046/j.1440-1622.1999.01659.x. PMID 10515340.
- al-Ali, M; Kashmoula, D; Saoud, IJ (August 1997). "Experience with 30 posttraumatic rectourethral fistulas: presentation of posterior transsphincteric anterior rectal wall advancement". The Journal of urology. 158 (2): 421–4. PMID 9224315.
- al-Ali, M; al-Shukry, M (January 1997). "Endoscopic repair in 154 cases of urethral occlusion: the promise of guided optical urethral reconstruction". The Journal of urology. 157 (1): 129–31. PMID 8976233.
- al-Ali, M; Haddad, LF (December 1996). "The late treatment of 63 overlooked or complicated ureteral missile injuries: the promise of nephrostomy and role of autotransplantation". The Journal of urology. 156 (6): 1918–21. doi:10.1016/S0022-5347(01)65391-6. PMID 8911355.
- Al-Ali, M; Haddad, L (January 1996). "A 10 year review of the endoscopic treatment of 125 spinal cord injured patients with vesical outlet obstruction: does bladder neck dyssynergia exist?". Paraplegia. 34 (1): 34–38. PMID 8848321.
- Self-published books
- Al-Ali, Muneer (2013). A scientific tafsir of Qur'anic verses : interplay of faith and science (2nd ed.). North Charleston, S.C.: CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform. ISBN 978-1480169968.
- Al-Ali, Muneer (2013). A Scientific Tafsir of Qur’an; Conversation of Faith and Science (in Arabic): Arab Scientific Publishers, Beirut, Lebanon ISBN 9781492327400.
- Fergusson, David (2013). Fergusson's " Faith and Its Critics" (in Arabic). CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform. ISBN 9781494468361.
{{cite book}}:|format=requires|url=(help)
- References
References
- ^ "Review: A Scientific Tafsir of Qur'anic Verses; Interplay of Faith and Science by Muneer Al-Ali". Kirkus Reviews. June 17, 2013.
- ^ Mishra, Pramod Kumar (2016). Textbook of Surgical Gastroenterology, Volumes 1 & 2. JP Medical Ltd. p. 1043. ISBN 9789351529989.
Category:Urologists Category:Living people
Best --Widmun (talk) 10:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
May 2017[edit]
Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. This is just a note to let you know that I've moved the draft that you were working on to Draft:Muneer Al-Ali, from its old location at User:Widmun/Muneer Al-Ali. This has been done because the Draft namespace is the preferred location for Articles for Creation submissions. Please feel free to continue to work on it there. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to ask me on my talk page. Thank you. KGirlTrucker81 huh? what I've been doing 20:54, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Many thanks....No further work required...just awaiting reviewing in order to publish...Regards --Widmun (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Muneer Al-Ali (May 14)[edit]
- If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Muneer Al-Ali and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
- If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
- You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.
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Hello! Widmun,
I noticed your article was declined at Articles for Creation, and that can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! >GtstrickyUser talk:Gtstricky 01:27, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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- Hello User:Gtstricky Thank you for your cooperation....Sorry that this page had to be declined twice...I have re-edited it with more information which is also sourced ...for your kind reviewing ... on Draft:Muneer Al-Ali...You appreciate that factual personal information can't be sourced i.e. DOB, Degrees, movement around the world, scientific activities, academic posts ,professional societies and decorations. However , my sourced articles and books contain information about my posts...and I can provide the names and locations of the hospitals where I worked around the world...N.B. sorry for the funny font because the superscript of your signatures has changed the default font to a very small one which can't be altered and I have to use a heading font to make my message comfortable to read ..Regards--Widmun (talk) 18:33, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Muneer Al-Ali (June 22)[edit]
- If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Muneer Al-Ali and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
- If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
- You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.
Speedy deletion nomination of Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali[edit]
What are you doing, is becoming disruptive, and you are going to end up indefinitely blocked. Please stop.
If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.
You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.
A tag has been placed on Muneer Abdul-Munim Al-Ali, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion, such as at Articles for Deletion. When a page has substantially identical content to that of a page deleted after a discusion, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Jytdog (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello, Widmun. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Muneer Al-Ali, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:
- edit the page
- remove the text that looks like this:
{{proposed deletion/dated...}} - save the page
Also, be sure to explain why you think the article should be kept in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you don't do so, it may be deleted later anyway.
You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:33, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
June 2017[edit]
Hello, I'm Hayman30. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions —the one you made with this edit to Muneer Al-Ali— because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Hayman30 (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Muneer Al-Ali[edit]
If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.
You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.
A tag has been placed on Muneer Al-Ali, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion, such as at Articles for Deletion. When a page has substantially identical content to that of a page deleted after a discusion, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Hayman30 (talk) 23:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Sockpuppet investigation[edit]
I do not think that you are playing by the rules, so I have filed an investigation here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Widmun. The Banner talk 19:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Unblock[edit]
Widmun (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
Sorry that I didn't comply with the regulations....It wasn't a planned act but a rather desperate one...because I have modified and changed the disputed page several times to no avail and deleted with a blanket statement which fits everything ,without indicating a specific requirement ,and I have been deliberately and unrelentingly pursued by an administrator called Jytdog...I am sure so many editors give similar reasons but you have your ways of investigating this....
Decline reason:
You were not "deliberately and unrelentingly pursued" by an admin. Your edits violated our rules, and then you were caught creating a sock account to get around these rules. You've admitted that this was done as a "desperate" move. Wikipedia's not to be a site to promote yourself. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Rickin...I am not in need of promoting myself...famous enough in my profession as a surgeon and author ..I don't even get royalties from my books.....Administrators shouldn't use blunt or impolite language like... me being " disruptive" ...this fits the definition of cultural terrorism.Widmun (talk) 16:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Jytdog.... today you have added revised versions of my talk page....and of the disputed page...I couldn't notice any appreciable difference....What is that supposed to mean ?Widmun (talk) 18:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I just fixed some formatting so your draft article is one subsection instead of being several main sections (one can now link to the whole thing like this: User_talk:Widmun#draft). btw, comments about "cultural terrorism" do not help you get unblocked. You have been WP:DISRUPTIVE (a technical term here) -- you socked and edit warred to try to get your autobiography in published in WP. You have now, in addition to that, accused the community of terrorism. It is very unlikely anyone is going to unblock you until you acknowledge what you have done wrong and promise to stop. And if you continue writing foolish things here, your talk page access will be revoked as well. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Jytdog...Bet you will do and revoke my talk page...Should I stay in such an abusive community, I will be truly foolish. It is not my cup of tee Widmun (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am sorry you are disappointed. It is not clear to me that the community made the correct decision in deleting the article about you and I am exploring ways to fix that, but your behavior has been dishonorable and you have only yourself to blame for that. It is too bad you have responded this way to a difficult situation. I will not reply here further. Jytdog (talk) 21:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Jytdog..This ordeal with the administrative community of WP( which so far I have looked high at as an independent encyclopedia ) makes me even doubt the credibility of its information as being whimsical, indulging and nonsubjective ... information in the wind, everybody's dish to either eat from or spit into...Widmun (talk) 09:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am sorry you are disappointed. It is not clear to me that the community made the correct decision in deleting the article about you and I am exploring ways to fix that, but your behavior has been dishonorable and you have only yourself to blame for that. It is too bad you have responded this way to a difficult situation. I will not reply here further. Jytdog (talk) 21:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Jytdog...Bet you will do and revoke my talk page...Should I stay in such an abusive community, I will be truly foolish. It is not my cup of tee Widmun (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)