User talk:Ssinke

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Hello, Ssinke, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! BRMo (talk) 13:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

NNL/YMCA

I note that you have changed the reference to the YMCA building where the NNL met, and cited a source. I'm not certain on how qualified a source Mr. Gilmore was as to its official name. Yes, I know WHO he was and I know he was a KC resident, but he may be the sole exception. The Chicago Defender, in an article dated 14 February 1920, reported the NNL (at the time chartered as the "National Negro League") had been formed at a meeting of the western clubs magnates who met at the YMCA (actually the "Y.M.C.A"), and the Kansas City Call listed it by the same name. It is a YMCA building, with the letters still clearly visible over its door -- I live in the Kansas City area, and have seen it up close a number of times. While it's possible that the building had a number of different alternate names at various times in its existence, it was quite definitely a YMCA building at the time the NNL was formed, and I believe that one man's statement naming it differently is insufficient to revert 85 years of previous knowledge. -- Couillaud (talk) 00:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

NNL/YMCA

Another article notes there were three meetings. One was in Chicago, I haven't pinned down the second, and then a third meeting was allegedly made at the Community Center Building at 19th and Vine where the actual documents were signed, according to QJ Gilmore. Quincy Jardin Gilmore was J.L. Wilkinson's right hand man. When Wilkinson needed somebody to front for him, Gilmore was the guy who took care of it. He managed the team, he managed the money and stepped in when Wilkinson was ill. Gilmore first worked for Wilkinson serving as his secretary and right hand man from 1918 with the All Nations after the team had moved from Des Moines to Kansas City, and then left the team in 1921 to work for a gas company in the New York area. He booked hotel rooms, found places where the team could eat, arranged payments. He was a front man for Wilkinson to make the process of finding black hotels and boarding houses for the team. He got a call from Wilkinson in a Chicago hospital asking him to come back and take over the team for the remainder of the 1921 season. Gilmore did, and served with Wilkinson until 1929 when he went to Texas to start the Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana 8-team league. He came back to the Monarchs, and they played the winners of the Texas league in a North-South baseball contest. He continued with the Monarchs for a while, and his wife Alberta also served with the Monarchs, then later working as a scout for the A's of Kansas City. Gilmore started and arranged the Monarchs booster club, and was in charge of getting flyers out to all of the barber shops, taverns, and any place that would hang up placards about the Monarchs games. Gilmore and his wife Alberta bought and owned the Chez Pariz nightclub at 1822 Vine in Kansas City. So all of this said, his memory of something five years ago (it's his first line, the lead line in his article) seems a lot more fresh than the wilting memories of people who weren't as specific as the guy who actually made it his job for the Monarchs to keep facts and money straight. Keep it listed that way. I don't care. I think it's inaccurate. And to insist that I am "reverting 85 years of previous knowledge," you're right because so much "previous knowledge" in the books is wrong. Ssinke (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It took me awhile to see your reply, as replies are usually placed on the pages of those for whom it is intended. While I appreciate your knowledge of Quincy Gilmore and his importance to the Monarchs, it's not his credentials I was questioning. What I was attempting to convey in my comment is that you were describing the exact same building, but were calling it by a different, less common name, and that one isolated reference calling it by that name is not sufficient to change the current precedent.

In 1920, the building was listed in the Kansas City Directory as the Y.M.C.A. building and was called that by contemporaneous sources (as in news reports from 1920), and that Quincy Gilmore merely used an alternate name for it five years later, very possibly the name it was known by five years later. It has probably had a number of names during its history, but it was known in 1920 and is commonly and historically known as the Y.M.C.A. building. Calling it by a different name just makes readers think we've discovered that the meeting was actually held at a different site altogether.-- Couillaud 15:33, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

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I'm getting these same notifications from the same bot, and they always seem to be false positives.

But that's not my prime reason for posting. Could you please use the phrase "he played" instead of "he would play" in articles? The latter is awkward, and it should be stated in simple past tense.

Thanks. -- Couillaud 18:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Less-than-notable Negro League players

Please read the Talk page of the "list of Negro league baseball players", particularly the discussion about the Dilution of the list. We have been trying NOT to let the list become a catcher of EVERY single person who once played in the Negro leagues, but only the most notable. Sometimes that's an arguable definition, and sometimes it's not. "Most notable" has a higher threshold than just being notable enough to have a Wikipedia page. Frank Blattner does not get mentioned as one of the great pre-league players; he does not have a bio in the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum eMuseum website. Seamheads.com covers Negro league stats from 1916 to 1923, and he does not show playing at all between 1918 and 1920. As best as I can tell, he was a utility player for Wilkinson's All-Nations team, which does not necessarily place him among the most notable players.

There are guidelines (loose as they may be) among those of us who contribute to this page ast to what qualifies for this page. I don't disagree on most that you have posted, but I DO disagree on this one, and with, I believe, good reason. If you still feel he deserves to be here, then show on his article just what he did that makes him among the most notable pre-integration black players.

Also, I have to revert your changes on Frank Duncan. Frank Lee Duncan II, best known as a Monarchs catcher, manager, and NAL umpire. Was born in 1901 and broke into the NNL in 1920. Frank "Pete" Duncan was born about 1888 and began his career with the pre-league Negro Teams at least 10 years earlier, AND played with the Detroit Stars in 1919. You are conflating one Frank Duncan's career with that of another.

 -- Couillaud

No definition of Notable

Since you haven't defined what is notable, you have obviously made this page "Couillaud's" Favorite Baseball Players. And I have no interest in adding to your list or proving anything to people like you. There were 3600 players, and you are purposefully keeping this list small to only players you like.

I don't like Rube Foster. But I don't go pulling him down off your list.

I was using this list to add Negro League players, and more importantly, PRE-Negro League players to Wikipedia and keep easy track of them as I went back and added references. But you are now making this very difficult. It doesn't matter that Blattner/Blukoi/or whatever his name happened to be spelled has shown up in literally thousands and thousands of newspapers across the country from 1912 to 1922. If he didn't kiss Rube Foster's butt, you don't think he belongs on the list.

Listen, I don't care. Because that's not why I'm here.

I'm here to add to the history of pre-Jackie Robinson baseball. It was the part of history where people like you felt players weren't important.

Duncan is messed up, I agree. I think there were 3 Duncans out there. But I don't have the time nor the patience to unwrap that puzzle right now.

There were probably 8 or more Chicago Giants teams from 1900 to 1930. There was the Chicago Giants, the Leland Giants, The Chicago American Giants, The Chicago Gilkerson Giants, Then several players broke off and created their own Giants team by the late 1920s and 1930s. Joe Green's Giants, for example. They're mixed together on Wikipedia like they're the same thing, and they're not. I have calendars and games played in different places that show they're not.

But here's the bottom line, that you obviously don't get. There were 3600 players out there, and I'm going to do my best to give as many of them a page as I can. I can only do work on those who were notable enough that they made the newspapers so many times we can follow their career.

The All Nations team has been very difficult to track. There were several white players, and players of other races, and major leagues doesn't care about them, the negro leagues doesn't care about them. But several of them played all over the country and spread baseball to much of the country, which at the time... WAS MOSTLY AGRARIAN. 100 years ago, most of the country lived in the country. And people who study the history of baseball just don't get that.

I'm not going to discriminate against any player who managed to make the newspaper thousands of times.

I'm also not going to add to "your list" anymore.

I'm not going to work on these things if people like you are going to undo my work. I barely have time in my day to work on this in the first place.

I've been working for about a decade to find and put the original newspaper articles about these players up, so readers can make up their own minds. I don't do stats, I don't provide very much conjecture. I don't post books very often, because I usually find out they were wrong.

Good luck with your list of "These are my favorite players list" because you aren't getting my free help on it from me any more.

Well, if you wish to be that way, I cannot stop you. But with your attitude and unwillingness to work with others or seek consensus, I'm not sure we'll all be missing that much.

Actually, Wikipedia has its own general definition of notability as it applies to Wikipedia articles; I don't really have to provide my own definition, because theirs works fine. Follow the link; you should read it.

I've been editing on Wikipedia for a number of years now with some particular attention to the Negro leagues, and researching Negro leagues (and pre-league) history as part of SABR's Negro Leagues Committee for more than 20 years myself. While your dedication to such projects is commendable, there are many of us working on it, and you're far from the only one, and probably not the best.

Yes, I am familiar with the Chicago Negro teams. The Chicago Unions and Columbia Giants were the top two pre-1900 teams, and were merged into the Chicago Union Giants in 1901, and were renamed the Leland Giants in 1905, keeping the name through the 1909 season. Frank Leland and Rube Foster parted ways in 1910, with Foster retaining the Leland Giants name and Leland naming his team the Chicago Giants. The Leland Giants became the American Giants in 1911, and though Leland died in 1912, the Chicago Giants remained a force up through the beginnings of the NNL, though their quality had faded by then. They continued to play into the early 1930s, though at a semi-pro level (which in Organized Ball terms would mean mid-level minor league). For the record, the Chicago Giants of the 1920s was "Joe Green's team"; he took over the managerial reins before 1920. The American Giants finally disbanded after the 1950 season. There were other teams (another Union Giants team played in the 1910s and '20s, and the Chicago Brown Bombers played in the 1940s), but these were the teams that played at the highest levels of play, and could have played competitively against white major league teams.

I didn't do that to impress you in particular of my skills; given your expressed attitude, it would be a useless effort. I did so to explain that your knowledge of pre-league history is not all that exceptional. There are a number of Negro leagues researchers and historians who edit on Wikipedia.

Just for the record, it is not MY list, and it's not just the players I like, but by general agreement (as stated in the page's intro), the most notable. The consensus came from a number of communications on various Talk pages (mine, BRMo's, Baseball Bugs, the article's, and a number of other editors). The consensus is that the people on the list were the all-stars of their time, had sustained careers of high-quality play, or were particularly notable for some reason (like Toni Stone) and connected to Negro league baseball. This was done just so the page itself does not become unmanageable and therefore useless to general readers. It is meant to be a listing of the best players pre-league, the best players from the first NNL and the ECL, the best from the pre-integration NAL and NNL, and the most notable (sometimes not the best) players players from the Negro leagues twilight era.

This is NOT about making bios and pages for players; in fact, I appreciate and commend you for that part of it. But this is a community effort. You need to stop giving out the attitude that you know more than anyone else about the Negro leagues, or even the pre-Negro leagues. SABR already has Jim Riley and John Holway. Aren't they enough?  ;-) No one will argue with you adding to WP's cache of Negro League players, but not all of them were notable, and many who were notable were not among the MOST notable. There are 39 men in the group of pre-league greats; I would argue that Frank Blattner was TREMENDOUSLY less notable than ANY ONE of those 39. You have added several who fully deserve to be added, and a few who don't (Blattner is not the only one I deleted). The list can still grow. But the list was once larger and much less organized before we split it up and agreed to limit it to the most notable. When I started editing this, it was limited only to the most notable players between 1920 and 1950. We've expanded that concept now, but this was NEVER intended as a catch-all list for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who ever played in the Negro Leagues.

This is not our first run-in. When you decided that a single reference you found justified changing the name of the YMCA (where the NNL was founded) to Community Center Building, and I changed it, you got angry about it and tried to show me how much you knew about Quincy Gilmore, when Quincy Gilmore was not the issue. You said you don't have "time nor the patience to unwrap" the puzzle of the three Frank Duncans (after cleaning it up, I put a note on the Talk page); in that case please do not make changes that have not been properly researched. I know you meant well, but we're striving for accuracy. I spend enough effort keeping people from putting incorrect birth and death information on Dobie Moore's page.

I'm sorry you won't add any more to the list. I always checked them when you did, and edit a number with further information, and changed "he would play" wherever I saw it, checked to make sure you were including them in the right era (I moved one or two into the first league era), and of course have removed a couple that just aren't that notable. But we'll make do. Life goes on. You have a good one. -- Couillaud 03:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't care.

I would accept your insult, if I had any respect for you. You can't just demand respect.

I don't belong to SABR for this exact reason. You guys do nothing but insult fellow historians.

When I posted, it said, players.

Then it said notable.

Then it said more notable.

Then it said most notable.

The "definition" of notable kept changing. Even so, you have no noticeable definition for "notable." I'm not the only one you're going to have to fend off. If you put a note up to clarify this, people might understand.

Again, there are 3600 Negro League and pre-Negro League players.

Wikipedia pages have no limit. There is no lack of space. But you act like we're wasting space and there's no such thing.

There is also nowhere on the page that says that "this was NEVER intended as a catch-all list for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who ever played in the Negro Leagues." You can't just assume people understand what you're doing or that they define the tenets of Wikipedia in the same way you define them. A little more clarity would go a long way.

If there are 3600 Negro League Players, you are creating yet again, another injustice by not paying attention to at least... let's say... 10% of them, on any page.

You have less than 150 players up there. Perhaps you should think about cutting when you actually get 360 players up there.

That gives people like me... who were trying to help... a chance to actually build the pages and build our arguments before people shoot them down at will.

I hope I don't profess to know it all when I reach 20 years of baseball research.

There's one thing I do know. And it's that there is not enough information about the Negro Leagues and especially the pre-Negro Leagues on Wikipedia.

You aren't helping when you cut down the people who are trying very hard to get it right. There are many ways you can handle this stuff, however you are going down the wrong path.

I'm working to put more than 15,000 pages online that I've collected over the past 10 years. I'm bound to make a few mistakes, but I'm posting original references, and talking to me like I'm stupid deepens my initial feelings that I need to stay far away from you SABR guys.

You've had 100 years to get this right, but your infighting like this holds everyone back. I will continue my own work, but I won't continue anywhere people take down work, rather than finding a way to add it to the collective knowledge. You could have started another page listing all of the players, or players by year, but instead you just took the easy route and hit delete, delete, delete. Sad.

First, I did not insult you, I criticized you. Wikipedia has rules of civil discussion, and I am following them. If you cannot or choose not to distinguish the difference between criticism and insult, that is not my problem. If you cannot or will not observe Wikipedia's rules of civil discussion, that is your problem. I addressed the issue of the list civilly, and you have responded churlishly. Wikipedia always tries to make one thing clear to all editors here: If you can't stand having your work edited or criticized by others, you're in the wrong place.

Second, I do not assume you are stupid, nor did I make any suggestion to that effect; again, that is just your interpretation. I do not profess to "know it all", but I have published some of my findings in this area (among them an account and stats of the Negro National League's 1923 season), and while I don't "know it all", your comments about your own research seemed an attempt to tell me that 10 years research proved that you know much more than I about the Negro leagues. I don't know you, and I don't have any idea what your 10 years research are worth.

Third, I believe that you don't really know that much about SABR, other than stories told out of school, but I won't bother with that either. We'll just respect your belief that all "SABR guys" should be avoided.

Fourth, Wiki's definition of "notable" has not changed in the time you've been here, and the intro to the List of Negro League players, describing it as "some of the most notable players" has been in place since 2008, long before you began editing it. It has not changed, except in your perception. And no, we've never had to "fend off" others about this; it's been pretty clear for some time. It is not our "infighting" that's "holding us back", it is your refusal to cooperate with others or work on a consensus. I'm very sorry that we didn't put up a disclaimer of what the list is NOT, but we all assumed that telling what it IS up front would be sufficient.

Fifth, instead of suggesting that I "start another page" because you don't like the current parameters of this one, perhaps you could start your own page. Much time and work has gone into creating, organizing, and maintaining this one. It was done over a period of years by a number of people contributing. You would learn how much work it is by creating your own, although I can tell you from the start that it won't be "yours" for long; others will edit it as well. You accused me of taking the "easy route"; I submit that it you doing just that, ignoring and refusing to seek consensus, complaining, and threatening to run away. Sad indeed.

Sixth, you DO have a point here, though not the one you may have thought. This list was created in (IIRC) 2004, and included nearly everyone who had an individual article. Trouble was, there were fewer than two dozen articles at that point. It began being more limited in 2006 when it was viewed as being too sprawling (you'll see that on the Talk page), and we split it into eras a couple of years ago for better readability, but the list itself has never changed its name. It probably SHOULD be renamed to be more clear. We expect that people will read the description and understand what the list really describes, but you're the exception to prove the rule. I will see if there is a consensus to change the list's name, if only to avoid confusing (and insulting) future editors who believe that One-Wing Maddox should be on the list. Perhaps you could start a List of All-Nations Players, or at least the category.

Last, there actually IS a list of ALL Negro league (and pre-league) players. It's called Category:Negro league baseball players and includes anyone with that category listed. You have forgotten (or did not know) to add them to that category, and you inadvertently left them out of that category. Rube Currie and Vicente Rodriguez (one of my favorite players, BTW) both had that category added.

Again, given your currently expressed attitude, I fear this is a wasted effort. If you don't learn consensus and cooperation, and don't apply a modicum of civility on Wikipedia, your stay will be an unhappy one.

I won't be back to read any response you make. Most Wikipedians communicate by posting to each other's Talk pages, rather than insisting on carrying it on theirs alone. -- Couillaud 17:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

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Thank you for making a wiki page, it looks great! Best wishes, Anastasia Bykova (talk) 09:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Frank Forbes

The article Frank Forbes has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this newly created biography of a living person will be deleted unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

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• Actually, that shouldn't have been tagged that way. Frank Forbes died in 1983, so the policy doesn't apply to dead people. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to provide references for your articles. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 23:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I forgot to put the first reference in before I hit save. The article now has two references and I'm adding more.

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