User talk:Seraphim System/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Seraphim System. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 3

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Archive 10

Please comment on Talk:Attack on Prekaz

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Attack on Prekaz. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Jones's v Jones'

The problems I have with "Jones' " are (1) that it doesn't sound right when I subvocalise it, and (2) that the Guardian style manual, which is the one I prefer, is very specific:

The possessive in words and names ending in S normally takes an apostrophe followed by a second S (Jones’s, James’s), but be guided by pronunciation and use the plural apostrophe where it helps: Mephistopheles’, Waters’, Hedges’ rather than Mephistopheles’s, Waters’s, Hedges’s.

Within the article, obviously, if one Jones's gets changed to Jones' then all must. 79.75.238.113 (talk) 06:24, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Well what about James? James' v. James'? That's how I feel about Jones. James' doesn't sound right either, even though that's not as clear as Waters. Hedges' is much the same. You're free to follow whatever style guide you want, but based on the above quote I think there is much to recommend the AP style guide. I can't imagine what reason is guiding the recommendation to continue wasting ink in this way. Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused by that response, which seems to need proofreading. However, the somewhat necessary and somewhat sufficient reason would be to keep spelling in line with the most common pronunciation (although, to add a little more confusion, Sao Feng in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End refers to "Davy Jones' Locker"!). 79.75.238.113 (talk) 06:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

This correlation between punctuation and pronunciation is pure fiction. No one actually pronounces these words "Aescylus" vs. "Jones-ez" — if you did, no one would understand that you were using a possessive. If you said "I borrowed Aeschylus book" most people would think you weren't a native English speaker. Seraphim System ^(talk) 06:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Mount Athos

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Please comment on Talk:Islamic calendar

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Please comment on Talk:Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War

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Please comment on Talk:Algiers expedition (1541)

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At AE

Please self-revert/remove your statement at AE. It needlessly inflames the situation by interpreting another editor's words in the worst possible light (well past how I think their words can be reasonably read). GoldenRing (talk) 16:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: struck through, sorry, I should have made it clear those were my words, I tried to do this by saying "it amounts" to, to indicate that this was an interpretation and not what was actually said, and to avoid saying "debressor said" but since I used quotation marks I understand how this might be misinterpreted, especially if someone is quickly scanning the page. I do think my wordig was more favorable then what was actually said (anti-jewish), but either way Debresser's words speak for themselves and that seems to be what the discussion is focused on Seraphim System ^(talk) 21:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I should have been more clear: Saying that you want some input from other groups (what Debresser said) is not the same as saying you refuse to collaborate with anyone not from a particular group (how you interpreted it). Is trivially not the same and you come across as throwing mud to see what sticks. Let's be clear: what Debresser said was completely unacceptable. But the amount of mud slung around since is making it quite difficult to do anything about it, partly because the behavior of several editors at AE seems to me equally deserving of action and I just don't have the appetite for handing out a huge round of sanctions. GoldenRing (talk) 07:00, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure which part you want me to strike out. I struck the comment that was in quotations, but I'm not supposed to substantially alter posts after many subsequent comments have been posted. I'm not sure if this will improve your mood but I think some of the comments from uninvolved admins today are based on Debresser's record, more then anything I may have said. He has been shown tremendous leniency (including recently reporting, El_C, an admin, to AE which was quickly closed as frivolous) - I don't think you were involved with any of those decisions, except possibly the most recent one with El_C. I don't really think my comments were as influential as you feel they were. The comments today came from editors with a broad range of views - pro-Palestine, pro-Jewish/Israeli, and the level of community agreement is fairly unusual for this type of action (from what I have seen). Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:34, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally I think AE and conduct based discussions are the one place where comments have to get a little personal, since they are the forum for editors hash out these disputes. Nothing I've seen today at AE stands out compared to what goes on everyday at ANI or other forums. The request to strike a comment was unusual, but I obliged, because I thought it could be misinterpreted as a quote. - but now it seems the issue is about how I've interpreted the evidence, have not shown enough good faith in my interpretation, etc. (Note that this you come across as throwing mud to see what sticks. is a bit over the line here.) I have been involved with this particular editor on another non-ARBPIA religion related article (successful RfC for me, after being dragged into multiple AN/I reportings that were closed without action), which was an RfC about a comparison between Judaism and Christianity that the community decided was inappropriate for the article. I don't know if you think my comments are motivated by some ARBPIA-related POV, but they are not. Editors are free to make honest comments at these discussions, within reasonable limits, and admins are free to ignore these comments if they feel they are not policy based. My comments were based on my past interactions with the editor. Anyway, The comment I made about non-collaboration does not seem to have been the focus of today's discussion, so I don't really think it is worth getting hung up on it, or upset about it, though I am sorry if it was particularly upsetting for some reason - that was not my intention. Besides, I am not very active in ARBPIA (anymore), because I really don't enjoy the hostile non-collaborative environment, and I find my time is more productive in other areas. Sometimes I translate articles, but I try not to get too involved anymore. - I've been working on entirely unrelated mythology articles and that is why I am interested in this topic of dating/literary traditions/etc. (This is actually very important for the quality/standards of our articles.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:54, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of elevation extremes by country

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Old articles for July copy edit drive

Hi! Great work on the drive! Some of the article titles on your list looked familar to me, so I checked and they're from the "old articles" months (August–November 2016). (This is the month the {{copy edit}} template was added, marked with a |date= parameter.) I marked them with *O on your list. This entitles you to a 50% bonus on the wordcount (calculated automatically) when barnstars are awarded.

I also put a comment with one from December 2016. We're running out of "old articles", so there's a chance that December will be added to the list of months that qualify. If that should happen, the December article can also get a *O.

Just want to make sure you get credit for your work. Keep it up! – Reidgreg (talk) 14:39, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Syrian Civil War

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Edit Conflict

Sorry, but there seems to have been an "Edit Conflict" in this edit. Please copy and repaste.Davidbena (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I already undid yours, I've had many edit conflicts before which I have not resolved by removing the conflicting edit. When there is an edit conflict you should not just copy and paste the conflicting version over the existing version, because it will remove the conflicting edits (I think this should be obvious, but in case it is not, I think it is also written in the instructions on the Edit Conflict page which you may want to review next time). Just add your comment in order.Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:40, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Usually, when this happens to me, I leave the page. When I return to the page, I still see the edit that I made (with no other edit), press the "save" button, and then discover that I had inadvertently deleted another's edit. So, how can I avoid this?Davidbena (talk) 22:44, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I usually just copy my comment and go back to the article and open a new edit window, because it always sounded considerably easier then what was proposed in WP:EDITCONFLICT Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay. That's what I'll do the next time this happens.Davidbena (talk) 22:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Joseph Stalin

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Notability

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Please comment on Template talk:Infobox country

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Please comment on Talk:Battle of Mosul (2016–17)

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Religion in ancient Rome

Hi Seraphim System, You have had a "working" tag for the above article on the Guild of Copy Editors Requests page for over a month. Could you please either complete the copy edit or remove the working tag so that another editor can finish it? Thanks, Tdslk (talk) 22:44, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

@Tdslk: I'm working on it but if you check the talk page, it is going to take me a little while because it needs to be checked against sources, and possibly reorganized. It's not an easy copy edit and it requires a thorough knowledge of the sources. I considered declining it, but it is linked to so many pages that I thought improving it would be preferable. I would be happy to hand it over to someone if they want to take it, but it's more then just a copy edit. You can check talk and let me know what you think. Also, I have been sick for a few days, I will be back to editing soon. Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:41, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Seraphim. It does look like the article has some problems; hopefully they can get sorted out on the talk page. Get well soon! Tdslk (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Archaeology of Israel

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Topkapı Palace

Hello: I just wanted to apologize for making an edit on an article you were working on. I saw the "Copy Edit" tag and didn't bother to check if anyone involved in the Drive was editing it. This is the first time this has happened to me. Sorry.Twofingered Typist (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

NP, it happens. Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Whataboutism

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GOCE July 2017 drive bling

		The (modern) Guild of Copy Editors Barnstar
		This barnstar is awarded to Seraphim System for copy edits totaling over 40,000 words (including bonus and rollover words) during the GOCE July 2017 Backlog Elimination Drive. Congratulations, and thank you for your contributions! Reidgreg (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

		Guild of Copy Editors Leaderboard Award: Long Articles, 5th Place
		This Leaderboard Barnstar is awarded to Seraphim System for copyediting 3 long articles during the GOCE July 2017 Backlog Elimination Drive. Congratulations, and thank you for your contributions! Reidgreg (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your hard work, and being very thorough with cleanup beyond the requirements of copy editing!

I want to apologize again about the edit conflicts you experienced on this drive, and am working with the coordinators to refine the instructions. Although you're in the right and the other editors were at fault, it's generally felt best to remove the {{copy edit}} tag once you put an article on your working line. That way the article won't appear in the copy edit maintenance categories others are using to find articles, and you can avoid edit conflicts with editors who aren't diligent enough to check the drive list or page history. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Cold War II

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2005 in south korean music

I fixed article according to your revisions. Is it ok?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:2005_in_South_Korean_Music -76.174.35.70 (talk) 04:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Religion in ancient Rome copyedit

Are you done with this article? I know you got pushback, but a copyedit doesn't normally entail overhauling sources. All the best, Miniapolis 16:10, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

@Miniapolis: Not normally, but that is what I was asked to do here because of the length of the article and the issues with the sourcing, and some of the primary sources. I am going to be busy for the next couple of months with life things, so if anyone wants to take over I wouldn't object - I think the history section at the end should be spun out because the article length is currently way beyond our guidelines, and because the section does not fit the structure of the article. The relevant parts could be merged back in to the already existing sections, but I don't want to propose an RfC if someone is going to take over the copy edit. Seraphim System ^(talk) 03:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like we should decline it for now; a copyedit is usually requested late in the article-improvement process, after the sourcing is done. All the best, Miniapolis 14:17, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

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Copyedit? of Topkapı Palace

Hi Seraphim System, while I appreciate that you tried to tackle the article Topkapı Palace, I fail to see how your edits that you summarized as "copyedits" can be counted as such. What is the logic for removing thousands of bytes of referenced information like here and a historical eyewitness account and put a cn tag instead, and here, just as an example? Subsection building headers, such as the Dormitory of the Expeditionary Force, have been deleted and merged into other buildings even though these are physically separate from each other, images that were of value such as the bird-eye views of the complex were removed, the size of the map reduced that almost nothing is discernible now [1], historical views of the interior removed but two superfluous images of Seraglio Point added, even though there is a separate article for it. The list goes on. With all due respect but a copyedit should primarily restrict itself to correcting grammar and flow, and not removing information. My first thought was to completely restore to the version before your edits, with the exception where you have updated sources, but I would like to hear from you first and maybe we can work on this more constructively to the satisfaction of both sides. Thank you for your understanding. Gryffindor (talk) 21:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Gryffindor: The tone of significant parts of the writing was informal and encyclopedic. The reason to remove "referenced information" was that the level of detail was excessive. I am willing to go over it again at a later time and leave more detailed summaries then "copyedit" but on the whole, I removed information that I thought was non-essential (taking into the consideration the length of the article.) I would note that this topic is under-represented and there are many possible spinout articles on the subject that have not even been created yet. I would suggest considering using some of this information to create new articles and then linking in a style that would be appropriate for Wikipedia. I am sorry I can't be more attentive to this right now, I have family obligations that will be keeping me busy for the new few months, but I am planning to continue working on this article when I return (and hopefully I will have access to new sources to help us resolve issues of which points are essential and thus WP:DUE for inclusion) Seraphim System ^(talk) 03:51, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I will add that I think it would be better to preserve the information but that some of the excessive detail on the architectural details, the color of the walls etc. in specific areas of the palace would justify separate main articles that can be linked. In this article I would want to preserve the information that provides a general overview and allow readers to follow up on the topics that interest them (which is the style we usually follow for big articles like this.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 03:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Seraphim System, thank you for your response. I can see some of the points such as article length, however culling an article of referenced information cannot be the solution. We should discuss other ways. Unfortunately unpicking all the parts will be so time-consuming, and I understand you are very busy. Can I just revert back to the original version and once you have more time let me know and we can sit down together and go through the article line by line? I'll see in the meantime what can be done to improve it. I see no other solution for the moment, I'm sorry. Gryffindor (talk) 08:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Gryffindor: Not really, there are plenty of other solutions available. WP:V is clear that the burden is on those who want to include material. I'm happy to discuss specific concerns, but I don't think the suggestion that we restore it, and then I discuss line by the line the changes that I want to make with you is feasible or policy compliant. I think what can be done in the meantime to improve it is that the material that was removed can be considered carefully for where it might be appropriate to create standalone articles on a topic. Additionally, there is a single source that is so heavily referenced and closely followed that I'm concerned it might have crossed the line to close paraphrasing. I absolutely don't support just restoring the article to its previous conditions - especially given the significant improvements to image layouts and other issues. The fact that reviewing the edits would be time-consuming is not a justification to revert policy based edits from another editor who had reasons to make them. I'm happy to discuss the article further, but I can't work on creating standalone articles from the removed material until I have more free time. Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:59, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

19:46:03, 29 August 2017 review of submission by Brentvans

Brentvans (talk · contribs)
- Draft:Brent van Staalduinen (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I'm sorry for the delay, but I'm just getting around to this now. I'm confused by your "self-published blog articles do not help us establish notability - insufficient independent secondary sources to establish notability " comment. None of the links or interviews are self-published, and I'm unsure how direct links to the award pages wouldn't establish notability, especially compared to a number of other author pages on Wikipedia, many of whom have never won a single award. Can you clarify?

@Brentvans: If you think I made a mistake, you can resubmit it but it had been previous rejected twice before. I don't expect it would pass AfD. For example, the citation to the Writer is written by the subject of the article. This is not an independent secondary source. Your username also suggests that the editor and the subject of the article may be one and same, which is discouraged. I would suggest seeking advice from the experienced editors at WP:TEAHOUSE. Seraphim System ^(talk) 09:20, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

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