User talk:PaxEquilibrium/Archive1

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Warning

I will ask you again to stop spamming my talk page. I am not interested in discussion with you about history of Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats, Balkans etc. This warning is according to Wikipedia policy befor I start a ban process. Emir Arven 22:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Welcome

Hello PaxEquilibrium/Archive1, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

That's okay

From my talk page:

Hey, ahm, I am already an experience Wikipedia user (and I have contributed to several things myself). I have just forgoten my username (my shame :P) because I didn't write anything for too long. My past username was "Emperor". If a union between my current username and my past one is possible, I would gladly await it. Thank you for your nice welcome, though. HolyRomanEmperor 17:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, then I suppose I should say Welcome Back! You might just want to note the name change on your user page. You might say something like, "I used to edit under the name Emperor." Just a suggestion. I'm not sure if they can change it any other way, sorry. Maybe Joy can help you more than I can. Once again, welcome back. --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Reply

I've not had a chance to read your entire reply, it's quite long. I'll get to it ASAP. --Joy [shallot] 14:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: reparation demands

Oh, I wasn't aware that this was a combination of problems in your case.

I have seen people (by and large Croats, but that's just a sampling error, nothing else) who were not able to get their tenant rights on state-owned apartments extended to ownership rights, it was a fairly common problem.

Having your things (ab)used by what is basically a squatter must be frustrating. Getting discriminated after asking to have the problem fixed is even more so.

I'm sorry if I sounded insensitive or rude, it wasn't my intention. I know that the government has record of some 1,400 houses still occupied by various non-owners, mostly Croats from Bosnia who were settled there with temporary housing papers and who weren't resettled, yet. I wrote about this problem in the article Demographics of Croatia, I'm all but unsympathetic to the issue.

Which reminds me... Perhaps we need an article History of Serbs in Croatia where we could integrate various information scattered around other articles. Or just Serbs in Croatia. --Joy [shallot] 16:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Let me hear yo out

I'll begin responding to your big comment here. I skimmed it several times up to now but it's really large and I needed to read it in detail before trying to answer it.

I'm not sure what you found wrong with the Sanja show. Maybe I didn't watch right episodes, but in those that I did, I never saw anything remotely related to propaganda. It's always been a purely fun show, no? They try talk about serious issues sometimes (civil matters like homosexuality and stuff) but it's usually very superficial, light-hearted.

About the Oluja show (emisija?), I don't really think that you need to waste your breath on that kind of programming. If I'm thinking of the right programme, that is. The one where the war veterans get interviewed and each of them shares whatever silly yet patriotic experience, and then the crowd is expected to "ooh" and "aah" after hearing them? I can assure you that a large portion of the viewers switch the channel at the very notion.

? O čemu pričaš ? Ako o emisiji na HRT u kojoj su gostovali Miljavac, Domazet i Štefanek-ona je odlična i puna podataka (imam ju na DVD-u). Mir Harven 17:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Nationalist demagoguery - it's horrible, but in normal times it's ignorable. A certain percentage of the population will always fall for it - Croats, Serbs, Americans, Arabs, ... you name it. It's a fact of life.

Footballers are also not among the brightest in the population. Sure, the press likes them, but more often than not they're just kids who were traditionally indoctrinated, both religiously and nationally, before they had a chance to develop their own brain sufficiently to realize that not everything is black and white.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'll briefly mention a counter-example - that Đurović fellow or what's-his-name, a basketballer from some KK Partizan I think - he has a visible tatoo of Draža Mihajlović on his arm. I mean, I can understand that someone is grateful to that guy for trying to preserve the monarchy and raise an uprising against the Nazi German occupation. However, they also have to understand that members of his group at one point thought it was a good idea to go about killing random other people because of their different national and religious affiliation.

It's not the Ustashe who dislike the Chetniks (although they did too, except occasionally when it was their common goal to fight the Partisans), it's just common people who heard about this crap. Just like it's not Chetniks who dislike the Ustashe (with the same disclaimer as before) because the common people also know what the latter did.

About the point number four, yes, that trend has fortunately subsided. It is indeed common for people to noticably avoid just saying "Hrvati" when they want to say "Croatians", and instead say "građani Hrvatske" because everyone knows that it's not right or fair to think that all citizens are Croats. The press calls this one of the processes of "de-Tuđmanizacija".

I'll get to the rest later.

BTW, is it perhaps strange for you that we're talking in English? I initially start all conversations on en: in English, but it's okay if you want to speak hrvatski, srpski, or any sort of a hybrid :), now that we've gone past the pages that the English speakers will need to understand fully.

--Joy [shallot] 17:03, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Dubrovnik, Duklja &co

If you want, I will give you a detailed mapped info about Dubrovnik and it's Serbia-Croatia relations.

Please do.

And what do you mean not mentioning Serbia before Stefan Nemanja??? It is a well-known fact that it was called Rascia (Raška) until the forming of Tsar Dušan the Great's Empire of Serbs, Arbanasses and Greeks, after which (although a feudal anarchic period until the Ottomans was in store) Serbia was the general name in use. And the union of Rascia and Bosnia (later inculding Zeta/Docleia and Zahumlje/Hum) is the concidered a first unified Serbia and that was even before Docleian Serbia.

See, this last part is where I can't agree. Docleian Serbia makes it sound like it was just a country of the Serb tribes, while there isn't much evidence to actually corroborate that.

And why do you not want to connect Duklja etc. with Serbia? Prince Petar Gonjiković (892.-917.), the ruler of Rascia, Docleia/Zeta, Travunia with Konavli, Hum and Paganija/Neretvia is generally concidered as the first known Serb leader/ruler. Then the Principality of Dalmatia, ruled by Princes Višeslav, Trpimir and Mucimir from 800.-910. and the Principality of Pannonia, ruled by Princes Ljudevit Posavski (819.-828.) and Braslav (880.-910.) cannot be concidered Croatian states? But everyone accepts these facts...

Well, apparently they're not known to everyone :) It would be good if you clarified the articles List of Serbian monarchs and House of Vlastimirović to state over which territories the medieval Serbian rulers ruled, and fill in the sources if possible. There's some talk of Časlav Klonimirović which apparently came later than Petar Gonjiković that you mention. Please fill in all those blanks. --Joy [shallot] 13:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

And you missed my notes of the history of Croatia articles being rather far too short. A reader would think that Croatia is a war-torn country that was created in a civil war (by un-orthodox means) with "some ancient lineage" Where are Tomislav, Krešimir, Zvonimir, Mihajlo Pupin's legacy, Nikola Tesla, Grgur Ninski, Josip Runjanin, etc...?

Hm, I think that all but one of those are all mentioned eventually. Did you click to see the articles marked Main article in each section? The link is at the top of each section.

I think Mihajlo Pupin's legacy isn't mentioned. Can you elaborate a bit?

A link to Montenegro and Serbia is still wanted, you know?

Where from? I missed this part.

--Joy [shallot] 22:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I would like the links to Montenegro and Serbia in the Croatia article, please.HolyRomanEmperor 13:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

They are prominently linked under the Geography heading, and the History section has two-click links to them via Dalmatia, Yugoslavia, etc. If you made a more concrete suggestion I'd be happy to comment on it... --Joy [shallot] 13:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mir Harven

Mir Harven is a Croatian nationalist, but he has scholarly knowledge and many of his opinions aren't entirely unfounded.

About the death toll in WWII - he has long been saying that the large round numbers given off the top of the head of various biased politicians immediately after the war are wrong. We know that most of them are indeed wrong today.

Republika Srpska has serious problems with legitimacy, because it is indeed formed on the basis of Serbian nationalism, and during its early days, its top politicians and soldiers were involved in widespread ethnic cleansing. And I don't mean that in the meaning of turning a blind eye to obvious crimes and supporting injustice like in the case of post-Storm Krajina - these charges are light in comparison.

The Serbs are probably the most geographically widespread people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They suffered horribly under the Ustasha regime in WWII, indeed, and they used to be the majority of the population. It's also not right that their opposition to the independence referendum failed.

However, it is also true that BiH is a profoundly multi-ethnic territory, where patches of land inhabited by different nations permeate almost everywhere. And Serbs are no longer in a majority, they are the second most numerous nation. And WWII was half a century ago. And they could have avoided a boycott and make a better case for their opposition.

However, they reacted by declaring their own independence and used the big brother (JNA) to help them carve out their own borders. I still remember footages taken by Arkan's supporters where they tracked his unit in Bijeljina where one of them split open a Muslim person's head with an axe. I mean, come on, any entity that allows this kind of action to be *filmed*, let alone committed, needs serious help. And of course to top it all off they thought it was acceptable to deport thousands from Srebrenica, and that it was a good idea to kill off all the men they could find, so as to mitigate the chance that they would procreate I guess.

You have to understand that there is much animosity towards Republika Srpska because of these circumstances. Had it just been the form of political organization of the Serbs in Bosnia, a cover organization for Serbian parties or some such, one that settled national issues in the parliament or in court, I doubt there would be so much opposition. But Republika Srpska was the buzzword of a large group of nationalist criminals who piggybacked on the valid rights and concerns of the Bosnian Serbs in order to attain more power than they ever would have in normal circumstances.

--Joy [shallot] 00:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

latest bit

I'm not being particularly polite - I'm just being normal :) I occasionally express my view with some amount of anger or indignation, but more often than not I take a breath before writing. It helps. :)

Perhaps Mir Harven is too troubled by some previous experiences and can't retain objectivity in all matters. Frankly, many of the contributors on Wikipedia have exhibited such symptoms (so to speak), and indeed some never managed to shed their preconceptions and make useful edits. He did, with some help, and a fair amount of his writing has been salvaged.

On the other hand, we often have problems in communication - especially when it's in a foreign language - some phrases don't come out as they would natively, they get interpreted as offensive, then there's a defensive reaction, and a quarrel. At times I've found it useful to try to reconstruct the English sentence from a Croatian or Serbian writer into how it would sound natively, and found that there might be many undertones lost in the translation. (This usually came after taking a deep breath... :)

The best thing to do is to keep having people communicate their actual thoughts to you (thoughts, rather than unarticulated sounds :), rather than trying to "battle out" issues with them. You may not end up understanding them fully or agreeing with them, but animosity will drain out in the process and you'll be able to gain some insight from the situation, if not from the information presented. --Joy [shallot] 13:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

...

I don't have an infinite amount of time to spend on Wikipedia every day, so please bear with me when you see that I don't immediately respond to a number of queries. --Joy [shallot] 14:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

?

What's your problem with life ? Facts ? Pose a rational question & we'll see. Mir Harven 17:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm

I don't think that I sound like an extreme nationalist, and I can't recall being warned about it ever. I have heard various people claiming that nationalism is a wrong thing, but I disagree with them. I have a complex view of SRS, seeing good and bad in them.

Oh, and try to pay no attention to Mir Harven. He's a known troll and, as the saying goes, don't feed the trolls. Nikola 08:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Krajišnik, a? :) No, I tend to be polite with everyone who deserves it. I didn't knew that you are a krajišnik till you told me. By the way, you need to fix that problem - which browser are you using? Nikola 09:08, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm here, but don't know what I could answer you. Mir is a problem, I know it for a long time, and Joy does support him. Not sure what are you asking me about? Nikola 12:28, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

That is typical. You are no doubt aware of immense anti-Serbian propaganda in Western media. As most of people, including admins, on Wikipedia live in the West, most do buy it, and so people like Mir, Dado or Kosovar can get away with any kind of crap while edits deemed pro-Serbian are often supressed. If you wish to pursue this, I'd suggest that you find (Google is your friend) a source which confirms that the people were released (a newspaper article is fine) and edit the article while linking to the source. Don't be afraid to revert back if someone reverts that without justification. By the way, why not writing a complete article on Varivode? Nikola 14:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you've convinced me, and Mir likely knew it already... Nikola 15:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Throw your look at [1] and [2]. Nikola 07:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that Ivo's mother was Serb, but can't find a reference. About Skenderbeg, see [3] and [4]. No, I don't intend to ever set a foot in Croatian Wikipedia, which I'd advise to you too. Let their idiocy show in its full glory. Nikola 20:40, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: the Serb Orthodox Cathedral Church of Saint Nicholas in Karlovac

I didn't know anything about it until recently. I had edited the Serb Orthodox Church article here to fix some tendentious writing, and noticed the see of the Eparchy of Karlovac on the list of SOC buildings that were torn down during the war.

I later saw some anonymously-compiled video footage on a talk show on Nova TV, and one of the scenes showed its patriarch blessing the RSK troops and spouting some typical national-religious mumbo jumbo - I suppose that this was the direct motive for the Croatian lookalikes of his audience to destroy his cathedral.

BTW I recently also read in Feral Tribune about semi-public executions of Serbian POWs in September 1991 in Karlovac by at least three members of the Ministry of the Interior. I recalled what you told me... sigh.

I'll get to the other comments, too, I merely lost track temporarily... --Joy [shallot] 19:25, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Let me hear yo out, part two

Continuing where I left off - point number five onwards.

I don't think you should be reading too much into the "Jelena" announcements. Not every American TV show is announced as "američka TV serija" or similar - the TV networks concentrate more on the content, or rather the key selling points, they say if it's a soap opera, telenovela, sci-fi, forensic, etc, the country of origin is often ignored. All Croatian TV stations nowadays tend to show the old Yugoslav programming occasionally, it's not very rare. Granted, this new Serbian telenovela(?) is a new thing, but other than that it seems fairly standard. It slightly reminds me of "Villa Maria", but that's probably from the same lighting, I don't actually know anything about the content :)

Where did you see that Josip Runjanin is considered Orthodox Croat? I don't recall seeing that. I did notice that his name is regularly morphed to end in -p and that his nationality is rarely mentioned, but that is somewhat expected. It's also rarely mentioned that Dimitrija Demetar was apparently a Macedonian. I'm not sure if Petar Preradović was a Croat, either. However, if you ask anyone with more than basic education to tell you if Croatia needs to kill off any mention of famous people who aren't Croats, you're unlikely to get less than 95% negative answers. Zlatarovo zlato is not less golden because its author was originally Schönoa, that's plain common sense.

I had no idea that the Bond template was a Serb :)) It's probably a common triviality in Serbia? Like the cravat being Croat here, I suppose.

I've already told you what I know with reference to point number seven &co. Šeks is widely ridiculed for his drinking addiction alone, and the leftist part of the public sees him as one of the primary remnants of the "old" HDZ. I can't say I've seen anyone with a grin on their face when he was made the president of the parliament. Similarly for Đapić.

The mayoress of Knin is basically a joke. I guess they put her there to put a pretty face on a really grim town. Everyone knows that the Dalmatian hinterland was never a particularly prosperous place, war or not, and she keeps ranting about how everything is becoming peachy. It's just transparent.

I don't really understand police control of the ultras, but it's a common thing to kill off any attempt of the visiting team's fans to do anything. When Torcida comes to Zagreb, the police lets them keep their scarves but removes anything more than that - if they piss off the Bad Blue Boys, all hell can break loose, and I guess it's much cheaper for the police to shut them down preemptively than to deal with thousands of rioters. Perhaps the Delije are treated even more harshly, and the reaction among the local ultras is more inane, but that's how things are in football.

I really doubt that either country will get any reparations. And I agree that it's wrong to compensate SCG - instead, the Croatian Serbs need to be compensated. You probably know that the Zec family children who survived their three siblings settled their lawsuit, and the process is going on, several others reached a settlement too. It's probably too late, too small, but hey, at least it's something.

I've no idea who this Jureško-Keto person is, I never heard of her. Hopefully nobody else did :))

You also shouldn't give too much negative weight to statements about SCG breaking up (that's "water polo"). It's long been known that Serbia and Montenegro are at odds in many issues, and in Croatia, like in other former Yugoslav republics, it will always inherently seem to some people that Serbia is strongarming Montenegro if they stick together, because it's like a smaller brother of hers.

It is indicative that crimes and terrorising happens in backward, hinterland areas. Any wiseass can get a hold of a weapon and target anyone, and the local police is composed of similar types, so the law enforcement system doesn't work. It doesn't help to have HDZ in power in Zagreb, so they basically don't do anything about it.

--Joy [shallot] 20:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Lynched in Zagreb? Who? --Joy [shallot]

Re: Let me hear yo out, part three

Continuing from point 24...

Yeah, I've also seen some complaints about expedited trials with no real evidence. Any legal system will have innocent people fall through the cracks - let alone a system without a system, such that our judiciary has been for the last two decades.

Also, it's also fairly typical to hear Croatian people recognize former RSK head honchos living freely out of sight in their home village, and wailing at the situation. The irony is that in case of a certain type of people, nationality or any similar issue is entirely peripheral - they will do just about anything to get by, and usually succeed; on the other hand, some people will get in trouble just for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

The point 25 is about a concept called victor's justice in English.

I've no idea who Jasmina Popović is, either. That statement you quoted sounds like a typical journalistic generalization - there are some who committed atrocities but not everyone. But hey, let's just consider everyone who's not back a runaway criminal and avoid having a guilty conscience. Self-deception is like a drug.

Woah, I'm done with the list... :) --Joy [shallot] 21:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mir Harven, part two

Replying to the text starting with "Croatia is nothing but a fascistic and nationalistic state ..." and ending with "Mir Harven mk II" - what is this? I don't understand where you got this. --Joy [shallot] 21:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, a parody. That explains it. --Joy [shallot]

I've looked at User talk:Mir Harven for the reference to the village of Varivode, and apparently he doesn't have complete information, but he did not dispute you on that, he just pointed you to the RSK page. That's either an attempt at the explanation why the legal system didn't work, or a misunderstanding.

Anyway, I don't think individual bickering will help anything. Wikipedia should simply present the available information about the Operation "Storm" aftermath. I've re-checked the Veritas web site now and it appears to be less graphically biased than before. They also seem to update their data, which can be included (with references). --Joy [shallot] 17:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

You need to put much of those comments in context. He obviously reacts rather coarsely, but at the same time most of his knee-jerk reactions, and I recall particularly that one where he said "Serbian sickos", were against anonymouses who were littering Wikipedia with fairly incoherent pan-Serbian junk. And you know how people tend to generalize - it's common to decry "ustaše", "četnici", "Hrvati", "Srbi", any pretty much any other group, because of actions of what are usually just individuals.

The comparison between Vojislav Šešelj and Mir Harven is amusing :) but there is a significant difference in that Mir Harven didn't cause anyone to take up arms... at least I hope! --Joy [shallot] 18:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think he's really continuing to defend anyone (there were no further comments), but then, I can't help it even if he is. --Joy [shallot]

sacral marking

I wouldn't call it "sacral"... at least for the majority. Perhaps it's strange for outsiders, especially someone who was sympathising with Krajina, to realize why there is such a positive attitude toward it, but for Croatia this was the operation that finally clinched the war and secured its independence. That's a pretty big deal, it's normal for the nation to appreciate it. The crimes do not override that. --Joy [shallot] 18:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I never heard that thing about seven-headed monster. That was Kuharić or Bozanić? Both of them seem too... frail :) to use such language, but I guess I can see it being said. The Martić-Mladić-&co. grouping was often seen as a criminal alliance whose only purpose was expansionism and harming Croatia, so allegorical references to monsters were to be expected among the more mythologically inclined, I'm afraid. --Joy [shallot] 18:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

It occurs to me that you may have meant sacral in the literal manner - marking by the Church. Yeah, I don't see much point in that either, but I see where they're coming from. There's a bunch of clergy on Bleiburg massacre remembrance events, too. The Church must feel that it's its duty to preserve memory of events of national importance, although the definition of such events extends only insofar as it suits them. You probably won't see them marking a ceremony of the building of major factories that happened during the Communism ;) --Joy [shallot] 18:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I was imprecise with that statement, sorry if it offended you. I didn't necessarily mean sympathising with the Krajina rulers and methods, only the sympathising with the rights of the Serbs in Croatia, esp. the right to find one's own way of staying alive, whatever that meant at the time. I got that impression from your writing - I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And outsider is also simply meant someone who has not been under the treatment of the Croatian press over the last fifteen years. You should consider yourself lucky to be such an outsider, honestly :) --Joy [shallot] 19:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Please

Please, people, this is a civilized talk page, do not post insultive posts here. HolyRomanEmperor 21:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Zvezda-Inter; Pagania/Neretvia

About the football match, I referred to that when I talked about the police control of the ultras. I don't think vandalism warrants any further comment - the police needs to put an end to it, and it does so increasingly well, although it's still lacking. About the Jajčinović fellow, again, I've no idea who that person is. You should confront him about his statements, not me :) Try to take a step back and consider that not all of the male population are idiots :)

I clicked the anarheologija.org link now, it works. I quickly read the text, it explains factoids mostly already known to me, although it adds the Serbian slant on it. I don't think this is any more valid than adding a Croatian slant on it. It's rather silly to try to claim them all as Croats or as Serbs when they were for a long time minding their own business - separately from both the Croatian and Serbian states in the neighbourhood. It's impossible to consider them integral to either of the two large nations when they clearly did not conform to the same standards.

And yet, they were also early Slavs and weren't particularly different from their neighbours - just like the neighbours themselves weren't particularly different - I can't honestly say that there was any rivalry between the Croats and the Serbs in this period - there existed differences that distinguished one from the other, but they had no real differences that they had to resolve. The buffer states such as Narenta and later the Bosnian state, who found a way to prosper from such a middle ground, benefitted both the westerners and the easterners, each of which had much more to gain from fighting with external enemies than with other Slavic tribes.

It's apparent that this Marko Aleksić is biased - he's consistently calling them Serbs and their land Krajina. Given the times we live in, this is needlessly pretentious.

--Joy [shallot] 10:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

hercegbosna.org

I can't say that I haven't seen biased stuff on the site, but it's got plenty of references so it's a decent source for research. Mir Harven is one of the editors, as you may have imagined already :)

The bit about Karadžić is a matter of interpretation. Consider that nations here are defined by several issues that are perceived to be major: ethnic origin, religion, and language. If you take any of those three and assign it to another nation, it's bound to piss people off.

Having said that, while the explanation of dialect origin seems plausible, I've never seen actual proof that the kaj is something inherently only Slovene, or that the što is something inherently only Serbian. I don't see how it's possible to have all the literate and educated Croats throughout history, suddenly promote a non-native language as their mother tongue. They simply weren't all čakavci, and they weren't all non-Croats masquerading as Croats.

--Joy [shallot] 11:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

About the original što/ča speaker - frankly, I've no idea. I don't even recall if our tribes had this distinction when they arrived in the south or if they still spoke the so-called Common Slavonic at the time. --Joy [shallot] 16:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

sympathising

By the way, why did you ever call me a "sympathizer"?

Again, I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way. I'm not trying to use it in a tendentious manner. --Joy [shallot] 11:11, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Re: Re: Let me hear yo out

(Sorry for the silly heading for this :)

I was under the impression that the people from diaspora who returned to Croatia would not go to the countryside, exactly because it's so backward nowadays. I don't recall those fourteen exactly, but it sounds like you said it sarcastically - that was the effect, I think there were no more than a few tens of thousands of returnees like that.

I missed the bit about "wonderful Croatian morning" :)) That's about as silly as Put singing "my Croatian sky" at the end of the song. It was really pathetic.

Fortunately, I've not seen anyone with a Pavelić tattoo in the media, or elsewhere. The Chetniks have a bad reputation in these regions because of two WWII things - an incident in Foča where they mass murdered and raped Muslims, and the opposition to the Partisans, notably killing Ivan Goran Kovačić or Marko Orešković.

You don't have to go into Bosnia (Foča) to find a Chetnik crimes against civilians - in Croatia, e.g., are known crimes in Poljica area (just E of Split), in villages under mountain Kamešnica (E of Sinj), in areas near Vrgorac...Kubura 06:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you should read too much into the prefix "Croatian". It serves a nationalist purpose for some parties, but it's also toponymical - it says that the party encompasses the entire country. The SDP also has it in the form of a suffix, their full name is SDP Hrvatske.

And I'd like to remind you that HSP has not become a "major" party, nor has it become a notable party during the time it was espousing far-right views. Its recent "surge" in "popularity" is more due to the fact that mainstream voters - don't vote! They still have a support in the range of 5% of active population, it's just that their population tends to vote and not sit at home.

The fact that Stipe Mesić is the president is the trivial proof of this - they absolutely hate him, but he manages to get his supporters to get out and vote for him, and he wins with a supermajority.

I agree with the parallels HDZ-SPS and HSP-SRS, although the situation is a bit worse when it comes to right-wing turnout in Serbia - more of the rightist voting body appears to have switched to SRS, whereas in Croatia more of it stayed with HDZ rather than switch to HSP. It's also positive that HDZ has shed some of its rightists - Tuđman and Šušak are dead, Pašalić and Glavaš formed their own parties, only Hebrang and Šeks remain as those that aren't considered moderate. However, Sanader appears to keep a tight order in the party and uses it for profit - sure, we all know that it's "embezzlement without borders" :) but at least they're not blowing the old nationalist horn every day all day.

I'm not sure why you think that "hrvatski ustaski pokret" is very powerful and influential. Who was that who compared Jasenovac with the play?!

I didn't actually say anything about 100,000 or any other number in Talk:Croatia, as Shallot or as Joy - I merely pointed the anonymous user to the right talk page. The first level of indentation is one person, the second is me. I'll go make that clearer.

--Joy [shallot] 12:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Andric and Serbs in Croatia

I took a look at Andric's article talk page, agree with you and so have reverted Elephantus. I'm not sure that article on (History of) Serbs in Croatia would be a good idea - what could go into that article that isn't already in Military Krajina? Also, remember that what is today Croatia was sometimes Croatia and Slavonia, and Krajina was not in Croatia, so even the name would be wrong. Nikola 09:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: This info

You should add the full text in the article Eparchy of upper Karlovac, and then link that from Karlovac. The Eparchy is linked from Serbian Orthodox Church already so this would consolidate one more red link. --Joy [shallot] 17:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It would help if you wouldn't copy and paste information about Eparchy of upper Karlovac from SPC web site. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Proscriptions required

Yes, there are many people who try to abuse Wikipedia as their personal soapbox. If you notice something that you think I could help you with, please feel free to tell me and I'll help out.

I have maintained a constant struggle :) to keep History of Dalmatia (which was previously Dalmatia#History) free of opinions, although it was always fluctuating. Recently I corrected many of Kubura's one-sided edits - he has a bunch of information but it needs to be proofread to avoid subtle and less subtle pieces of propaganda. Luckily, he can be reasoned with and my current version pretty much stands (i.e. there's no reverting going on). Please read it further and we'll work on it. --Joy [shallot] 17:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Hej

Mislim da bi to trebalo provjeriti. Za Istru je lako zaključiti da je talijanski službeni (official) zato što se koristi za cijelu županiju; ovo što je na razini općina ili pak samo pojedinačnih naselja nisam siguran da se može uključiti u infobox. U biti bi mogli staviti fusnotu.

Ispravio sam list of state mottos tako da nema Boga i Hrvata tamo, to je jednostavno bilo krivo. Svakakve su ljudi dosad stvari dodavali u to polje, ali službenog mota jednostavno nema.

Srijedit? :) Srediti je i u hrvatskom :) Maknuo sam copyvio dio iz članka, sad je pristojan mali stub. Ako stignem prenijet ću i još informacija.

BTW, jučer dok sam hodao Draškovićevom ulicom vidio sam natpis nekakvog starog obrta ili nešto slično, čiji je vlasnik Predrag Đurić. Danas sam na televiziji vidio profesora koji se zove Vuk Tvrtko Opačić. :) --Joy [shallot] 17:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, rekao si konkretno za Dalj... dobro, ima ta priča i drugu stranu. Citat s googlea (iz "24 sata", vidi [5]) - Riječ je o Srbima koji su djeci u školi prodavali Arkanove bedževe i bili aktivni članovi Šešeljeve Radikalne stranke. Oni su 1997. jasno rekli da ne žele predavati ustaškoj djeci i sprdali su se s našim jezikom, a sada kada im nedostaje satnice za punu plaću, zbog njih su iz škole otjerani uzorni hrvatski nastavnici.

Ipak, pravu potvrdu da to nije samo hrpa blesavih roditelja mi daje ostatak članka, pogotovo na kraju kad kaže Naš pravoslavni pop mi je prijetio da nam neće posvetit kuću niti krstit dijete jer smo suglasni s Hrvatima, ali je nama dosta toga da s nama upravljaju drugi - kaže uplašeni srpski roditelj. To ti pokazuje da se ljudi ne dijele na Srbe i Hrvate, nego na budale i na one koji to nisu. A dovoljno je svega par budala da zakuha, i odmah svi na noge skaču. Da iz te priče isključiš samo par ljudi s jedne i s druge strane, ne bi priče nikad ni postalo.

Inače, općenito, nije Dalj jedino mjesto koje ima dvojezične natpise (izvan Istre), tako je sigurno i u Trpinji, Boboti, i drugim srpskim selima, nije to ništa čudno. I kad ideš u Laslovo i Ernestinovo vidiš natpis na mađarskom, jer su to mađarska sela. Ipak, status službenog jezika se više povezuje sa službenom upotrebom što se tiče ljudi - vjerojatno da uđeš u općinski sud u Osijeku ili u neku drugu javnu ustanovu, i počneš pričati bilo srpski bilo mađarski, samo bi te čudno pogledali i rekli "the translator is --> thattaway -->" :)

To sa Dukljom je već odavno konfuzno. Problem je u tome što je famozni Pop Dukljanin bio iz Bara, a ne iz tog naselja kod Podgorice. Ne znam je li to naselje u to doba uopće bilo naseljeno. Anyway, napisao sam to u članku sada, valja će biti jasnije.

Hvala što si editirao i Pagania - dobro si me natjerao da dopišem svašta unutra :) Bilo bi dobro ako bi uspjeli iskopati i pokoje ime srpskih knezova koji su ih kontrolirali.

--Joy [shallot] 22:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Inače, shvaćam te u potpunosti što se tiče asimilacije. To je u biti normalna stvar. Hrpa ljudi iz miješanih brakova koji nisu htjeli probleme su ili emigrirali, ili se priklonili nekoj naciji, u biti odmah. Kontraprimjer koji je u Hrvatskoj popularan iz dnevnopolitičkih svrha, su Bunjevci u Vojvodini - kako je za vrijeme Šešelja bilo nepopularno povezivati se s Hrvatskom, niti bi se netko tko je u biti tamo domaći nužno i htio povezivati s drugom državom, dosta ljudi se nacionalno izjasnilo kao Bunjevci, Srbi, Mađari, i slično. Za one koji rijetko idu u crkvu ionako nije previše očito da su katolici, pa im je to osiguralo malo mira za slučaj da im neka budala dođe brojat krvna zrnca. I ne možeš im zamjeriti, nikako. --Joy [shallot] 22:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Da te pozovem...

Da nam se pridruzis i na srpskoj Vikipediji. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Re: Hej

Gdje smo ono stali... :)

Miloš ti je napisao što je poznato i relevantno o Boškoviću te o Andriću, ali mogu ponoviti svojim riječima ako inzistiraš.

Za Ruđera Boškovića je najtočnije reći da je bio u svakom pogledu - Dubrovčanin, jer se nije deklarirao kao Srbin ni Hrvat, nego je bio građanin i djelovao je za dobrobit Dubrovačke Republike. Otac mu se morao odreći pravoslavlja prije ženidbe za ženu romanskog porijekla, i umro je kad je R. B.-u bilo samo deset godina, tako da je to stvarno hvatanje za slamke. Revertirao sam ti promjenu tamo u tom članku gdje si nadodao "od 1939.-e" u vezi integracije u hrvatski milje - nevezano za merits of the same statement, takvo je stajalište bazirano na premisi da je integracija puno dugotrajnija od tog datuma. Tojest - kao enciklopedija prezentiramo i jedno i drugo stajalište takvo kakvo je, ne dajući mišljenje i o ijednome.

Ivo Andrić je očito bio prilično naklonjen svojim zapadnijim korijenima u ranijim danima (nije slučajno objavio nešto u hrvatskoj mladoj lirici), a kasnije se jasno očitova prema istočnijima (radio je za Kraljevinu Jugoslaviju u Beogradu, izjašnjavao se kao Srbin ako se dobro sjećam). Mislim da tu nema nikakve veće kontroverze, iako je dosta teksta u tom konkretnom članku podložno izmjeni jer ima više izražavanja mišljenja (literarna kritika).

U vezi jezika - koliko god je jezika priznato na lokalnom nivou, svejedno je srpski dominantan, kao što je u hrvatskoj hrvatski. AP Vojvodina iskače iz priče time što forsira sedam jezika u svim pokrajinskim uredima, svakako.

Rado bih dodao link na taj članak u Pagania, ali ne volim linkati članke koji nisu na engleskom iz engleske Wikipedije (npr. dosta hrvatskih gradova i sl. nisam polinkao službene stranice jer su samo na hrvatskom), budući da engleskim govornicima takvi linkovi općenito nisu uopće korisni.

Mislim da bi trebalo. Ako postoji strana na engleskom, svakako treba uvezati nju, ali ako ne postoji treba dati makar sta, posebno ako je zvanicna. U stvari, mislim da ukoliko postoji zvanicna stranica necega, ona bi uvek morala biti uvezana, bez obzira na jezik (naravno uz napomenu na kom je jeziku). Nikola 00:29, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Mislim da si dodao objašnjenje za Gojnikovića i Klonimirovića u članak, nisam ništa dirao...

Slažem se s tvojim opisom da se izraz "Srbija" treba koristiti za Nemanjinu državu nadalje, jer se prije toga nisu Srbi jednostavno nisu bili organizirali u jaku i trajnu srpsku državu koju bi mogli zvati Srbijom. Ni hrvatske kneževine prije Tomislava ne možemo nazivati "Hrvatskom", pogotovo zato što su podaci iz tog ranog perioda još rjeđi (u biti se ne zna dokle je sve sezala panonska kneževina u smjeru sjevera i istoka, makar ja ne vidim nikakve pouzdane informacije o tome). Da ne pričamo uopće o samim elementima državnosti koji su u srednjem vijeku bili patetični u usporedbi s kasnijima. Svakako da su obje grupe kneževina bile svojevrstan uvod u stvaranje pravih država, ali s obzirom koliko je taj "uvod" bio dugačak (makar tri stoljeća za Hrvate, preko pet za Srbe), ne može ga se ignorirati. Nadam se da se takav dojam dobija i iz mog opisa u članku medieval Croatian state gdje sam više odjeljaka posvetio ranijem periodu nego kasnijem (ako se dobro sjećam).

Argumenti o autentičnosti iskaza Konstantina i Grgura su jednako klimavi, IMHO. Pop priča o tim nekim Hrvatima koji ga okružuju, ali je očito katolik i teži uključiti sve u svoje "stado", jelte; Car priča o tim nekim Srbima koji su na najzapadnijoj margini njegovog carstva, a očito nije siguran u to sve kada prenosi obje priče svojih kroničara umjesto da iznese samo jednu.

Navodno da je nešto sumnjivo u krunidbi Mihajla, to sam vidio iz prethodnih edita u relevantnim člancima. Ima li negdje u vatikanskim knjižnicama zapis o tome? Mislim da je to bio kamen spoticanja - ako mu je papa poslao bulu, onda je negdje trebala ostati neka črčka negdje o tome.

Da i ja dodam još jedan detalj u vezi prijatelja - jedan od mojih dobrih kolega na faksu se zove - Kosta. 'nuff said :)

--Joy [shallot] 18:19, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Latinica

E, ide li u Srbiji negdje syndicated Latinica? Neki dan su imali dobru emisiju o primitivizmu, mislim da bi ti se svidjela... --Joy [shallot] 18:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Albanau

Hello! The warning on User talk:Albanau was not for you, it was for User:Albanau. This rabid Albanian nationalist operates the sock puppets User:L'Houngan and sv:Användare:Albanau, sv:Användare:L'Houngan, sv:Användare:Piana and sv:Användare:Arnauti on Swedish Wikipedia. He has been banned indefinitely on sv: wiki, but he repeatedly violates this ban by creating new sock puppets.

Best regards! Probert 11:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Against Albano-FYROMian nationalism

The ignorant Albanian nationalist that goes under the ID User:REX is supporting the ludicrous Macedonian Slav national myths about St. Cyril being a Macedonian Slav. His pushing the POV of adding his picture in the article Slav Macedonians under the conviction that he had a Slavic mother. I warned him that if he continued to do so, I'd put Scanderbeg's picture on the article Serbians. I'm planning to do this. If any Albanian complains I will just redirect them to REX's conviction until they're forced to remove Cyril's picture themselves. If you want to support me just play along. Miskin 13:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

What a blasphemy! He was Serb of course! ;) Nikola 00:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

My Serbian friends HolyRomanEmperor and Nikola. Do not let the biggest nationalist on Wikipedia (Miskin) pull you into his nationalistic and brainwashed claims. It is stupid to claim that St. Cyril and Methodious were Greeks, when they were proclaiming the Slavic culture in order to protect us all from the Greek assimilation. The stupidity of the Greek nationalist is endless. Do not let them make you a part of it. Macedonian 01:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Zajebi te Grke brate, oni tvrde da je svet poceo od njih, a tek su onda nastali dinosaurusi. :))

Cista mala informacija o REX-u. Decko je Albanac poreklom, ali je iz Grcke i zivi u Velikoj Britaniji. Veoma je fer i nema nista nacionalisticko u njemu. Jednom sam ga cak i pitao sta misli o odnose medzu Albancima i Makedoncima i Albancima i Srbima, rekao je da nema pojma o tome i da misli da je glupost sto smo ratovali.

Ja ga neznam licno, ali je jasno kao dan da njegov cilj je da pokaze ovde na Wikipedii koliki je Grcki nacionalizam i kako Grcija lomi covekova prava svim nacionalnostima sto zive u Grcku (Makedoncima, Turcima, Albancima, Bugarima itd.)

Zato te jos jednom molim da razmilsis dobro pre nego sto prihvatis neku saradnju sa tipovima kao sto je Miskin. Jebeni idiot lupa gluposti svaki dan, izmislja i laze, sve samo da bi podrzao svoje stavove.

Topli pozdrav sa juga... Macedonian 02:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Serbs in Germany

How do you mean I don't believe, I put that number there myself? Nikola 00:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

REX

Hello HolyRomanEmperor, the disputes on my talk page are over whether the primary ethnic group of the Republic of Macedonia are to be called Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs. There are people from every nation in the world supporting the former, while only Greeks are supporting the latter. There are more sources supporting the former as well. It's just that certain people have such a nationalistic closed mind that they refuse to accept reality! Do you want to join the discussion? If yes, be prepared to go through hell! :-)) REX 12:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just highlighting what the discussions are like (they are currently taking place on Talk:Macedonian Slavs). That article is a hot-spot for nationalism af all nations. Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Americans, Canadians, Australians etc. I'm just saying that if you join, you will be confronting nationalism of all kinds, but mostly of the unreasonable variety. Where are you from? Your user name suggests a German background. REX 12:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Greetings from Macedonia

Warm greetings to you too my brother Serb.

I just came back from Belgrade couple of days ago, I had an incredible time, my cousin was getting married. :))

Brother, I would like to ask for your help and the help of the other fellow Serbs to help us defend our national identity from the constant Greek and Bulgarian attacks. I beleive that you know about the problems we have with the Greeks and some Bulgarians. Those people obviously do not have any contact with modern Macedonia and the Macedonians, so they keep proclaiming some hilarious ideas here on Wikipedia, ideas that are centuries old.

I beleive that you have more contact with Macedonians and I hope there is something you can say about it on the Macedonia related Wiki pages.

The Macedonians and the Serbs found a way how to cooperate and respect each other more than 65 years ago. Too bad that some nationalistic Greeks and Bulgarians got stucked in the time and stayed in the last century. :)

Take care, Macedonian 01:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to express sadness for your misfortune (I read a part of your life story on the User REX's page). Whatever you are (Croatian or Serb), is what you feel, not what someone else made you. Anyway, at the end, we are all just humans... Macedonian 02:14, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

About Cyril and Methodius... there are several versions what they were by their mother or father. Non of those versions can be 100% confirmed. The important thing is that all the world knows that they were both promoters of the Slavic culture and language. I don't even know what the Greeks want, when Cyril and Methodius obviously never supported the Greek assimilation of the region... actually, they dedicated their whole lives in defending the Slavs from the Greek assimilation.

Concerning the Greek and Bulgarian nationalists... you can only read the page dedicated for Macedonia and everything will be clear to you. The page is full of historical POV pushings, it supports only the Greek and Bulgarian extremist and their claims that the modern Macedonians are creation of Tito. It also says that until the World War 2 we wanted to be part of Bulgaria.

Just a reminder... during the World War 2, when Bulgaria occupied whole Macedonia, enormous number of Macedonians joined the partizans and fighted the Bulgarian occupators. If they were Bulgarians, why would they fight against them?

Also, the Greek POV pushers insist the term "Macedonian Slavs" to be used instead of "Macedonians". Another reminder... WHOLE world, except Greece and Cyprus, including goverments, organizations, institutions, enciclopedias call us Macedonians. In the same time, that is the only ethnicity that we identify with.

Doesn't seem right, does it?

And this is just 2 of 100s issues that we are forced to defend, only because we are Macedonians and because someone else would like to steal that history for themselves.

Macedonian 18:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Please refrain from making baseless threats of banning for vandalism. For the definition of vandalism on Wikipedia, I recommend reading Wikipedia:Vandalism. Also, please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and maybe also Wikipedia:Harassment. Thank you. --Elephantus 21:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

I have your message.  :) --VKokielov 21:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Rudjer Boscovich, accusations and personal insults

On the User talk:Probert you wrote:

user:Elephantus keeps editing my Rudjer Boskovic page without explaining his changes. No matter how many times I edit it back, he keeps adding the Croatian language in the text. I don't know what to do! HolyRomanEmperor 17:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Please note two things: page Rudjer Boscovich is not "yours" or "mine" or anyone else's. I simply readded the name in Croatian you seem to find particular pleasure in removing (and which was already present on the page before you started your peculiar campaign) and noted it duly in the edit summary. Someone previously added the Cyrillic version of the name in Serbian which made it necessary to split the two as Croatian doesn't use Cyrillic. Also, try at least going through the history of the page and reading the talk page and its archives before making allegations like these.

On my user page you wrote:

I have no will to fight an edit war with you. You should know: Fascists, Nationalists and rasists always go to the very bottom rung of the cultural society. HolyRomanEmperor 17:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

You seem to resort to superficial personal insults rather quickly after someone disagrees with you, without really considering the facts of the cases in question or reading through everything that has been written about them. I think this is very much against Wikipedia's policy and spirit. Please don't be surprised if people avoid communicating with you after you do such things. Thanks. --Elephantus 19:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish to incline that, although it was not my goal, I have unintentionally made personal attacks on user:Elephantus. HolyRomanEmperor 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The user:Elphantus had mentioned that I respond with personal insults when someone disagrees with me. This is wrong. The user ignored all my posts and neither agreed nor disagreed with me. The user had acused me of not reading everything through and not concidereing all facts when I actually see no sample of this (he didn't present me with anything at all to read) HolyRomanEmperor 19:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, let me make this clear: I don't have anything against you. I have something against some of your edits. The page Rudjer Boscovich, like a number of other pages connected with Croatia is on my watchlist and I'll continue to watch it. Also, this is not a forum or a chat club. If you have useful facts and references to prove them, add them. If you have a _good_ reason for something to be removed from a page, state it on the appropriate talk page. But please don't remove things from pages just because you "somehow feel" they shouldn't be there, and try to read what other people have written on the Talk page and have a look at the previous revisions of a page. --Elephantus 17:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

More Greetings

Greetings, my friend. Tell me, do you need a hand or two in anything? Fill me in and I will be there to help! PS Greetings from your friend in Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom :-) REX 22:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Pa, dodji :)

Dodjes (http://sr.wikipedia.org/), pocnes da radis na nasim clancima i ukljucis se u zajednicu (za razliku engleske, mi imamo dovoljno malo ljudi [mada i ne bas malo] da imamo pravu zajednicu). Mislim, nista posebno, nista pod obavezom; samo pocnes da pises i tako... :) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

History of Bosnia

As much as I try to respond regularly sometimes I don’t visit English wikipedia for several days as I am also working on Bosnian wikipedia (if you are familiar with the language please visit us sometimes). I am not considering here if I am fond of you or not :). I merely stated that particular claim, that you are talking about in the section about History of Bosnia and Herzegovina, needs to be substantiated with some proof. I am not saying that it is wrong but I just need to see some proof as it seems dubious to me. Second problem with the claim is the relevance. Why is it relavant to include it in the article even it is correct? What does it want to imply and how will it improve the article. Complete your thought about this claim. --Dado 16:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mihajlo, Dubrovnik, clarifications

Vidio sam bio u prolazu onu sliku koju si stavio na stranicu - nisam bas skuzio kako to moze znaciti da mu je papa dao kraljevsku titulu? :)

Ispravljam sad ovo s Dubrovačkom republikom.

Mislim da ne možemo davati previše pozornosti tome što je Tvrtko mislio. Stranica je organizirana primarno kronološki, a sve njegove ekspanzionističke ideje su u biti potonule čim je umro (ako se dobro sjećam), tako da nema baš nekog većeg povijesnog utjecaja, nije relevantno.

--Joy [shallot] 18:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

E, ajd pogledaj izjave/činjenice iznesene u Republic of Ragusa#Culture pa reci na Talk:Republic of Ragusa što misliš o povezivanju jezika tadašnjih Dubrovčana s hrvatskim. --Joy [shallot] 19:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Ma, ne bih ja to nazvao nastavljanjem dinastije, ako je on bio samo jedan leteci a ciji se nasljednici nisu zvali Nemanjićima. Ili jesu i oni? AFAIR oni su bili Kotromanići.

Nisam bas siguran da se svi hrvatski lingvisti slazu s Ljudevitom Gajem po tom pitanju... :))

Nesto sam propustio sto se tice ove Paganije i toga? Zar nisu stranice unprotected, pa mozes sam ispraviti?

Ovo za Hrvate u Njemackoj sam cuo na nekoj emisiji o iseljenicima na Hrvatskom Radiju od nekog njihovog predstavnika, kao sto sam i napisao u edit summary. Znam da nije neka referenca, ali makar je nekakva - ono revertiranje koje je bilo u medjuvremenu nije uopce dalo nikakvu. --Joy [shallot]

OK, I corrected Duklja. While searching for other references, I also delved into the rulers section of Zahumlje and tried to make some sense of it. It's still fairly unclear. The House of Vlastimirović article could also use some clarification - whether the default domain of all those rulers was Raška or all Serb lands?

I see the picture again, although I can't quite figure it out. I see a man in a fancy uniform hold a small house or fortress in his hands? Can you link the page on njegos.org that talks about it?

If you mean the stuff at User talk:Joy#Good, I had read it, but I don't quite know what to do with it :) Does it contradict with anything on Wikipedia? I didn't notice any disparities other than the bits about western Bosnia - I thought the Kosača family ruled over Herzegovina? It's somewhat unclear how the Orthodoxy "jumped" over the Catholicism in central Bosnia before the Turkish conquest during the time of ban Kulin...

I'd be more amenable to consider Tvrtko as a Nemanjić if you gave me references so I could read up on it :)

--Joy [shallot] 09:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Serbian pictures

Hello Emperor, whose picture do you like on Talk:Serbs? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 19:34, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good, you are Serbian, aren't you? Your views on the pictures sound good. However, maybe they could be reduced in size so that it could fit into a 500px space, but I don't know. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 22:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Languages

We came here, to America, a long, long time ago.

HRE, are you sure that, if you were Joy, you'd want that little blob on your user page?

--VKokielov 23:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

This blob: "This user should be the Chancelor of the United Nations. HolyRomanEmperor 17:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)". --VKokielov 21:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Answer from Macedonian

The identifying of the Macedonians in the censuses is complicated issue, even now, in the 21st century.

Just see how difficult is the situation of the Macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria nowdays. Unfortunately, this situation was also similar in Serbia before the WW2. Having on mind how fucked up the things are for these people nowdays, you can just imagine what was happening some 60-70 years ago, and even more some 100-150 years ago.

If you need more information about these issues, you can visit some of the links found on google.com: The Human rights of the Macedonians in Greece, The Human rights of the Macedonians in Bulgaria.

Also, some interesting information about the treatment that Macedonians were receiving in the region can be found here: [Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, which is nowdays a part of Greece], [Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia, which is nowdays a part of Bulgaria]. The last 2 links are from a web site which is clearly supporting the Macedonian side of the story about both history and culture, but the facts about the treatment of the Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria are supported by any major Human Righst organizations in the world.

I will repeat again. If so many shit is still happening nowdays, you can just imagine how was it for the Macedonians at the beggining of this century, when they didn't have their own country and were ignored by most of the sources which were under a clear presure from the other forces in the Region (Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, who were actually the deffending line of Europe against the Ottoman Empire).

I hope this explains your question. Please contact me for any further explanation/discusion you need. Macedonian 00:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Please use my talk page for any communication, because I am not always able to check the talk pages of all users that I communicate with (including you, my friend). Macedonian 00:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find comments on your last message on my talk page. Thanks.

Take care, Macedonian 02:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find comments on your last message on my talk page. Macedonian 02:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I have some oppinion that you have an idea about the region as a whole and the problems that concerns us. Maybe you should include in the disscussion at the following link: [[6]]. The Bulgarian user VMORO is keep trying to present the Macedonians as Bulgarians who Tito made quit their origin and become Macedonians. What a bullshit. Tito was actually sending to Goli Otok anyone who even mentioned independant Macedonia. Ans also, I beleive that you remember that we were pushed (untill the 1970s) and latter just asked to identify ourselfs as "Yugoslavians".

If you can, can you please help me out there? I am not asking you to support my oppinion. I am just asking you to help me protect my identity and the identity ofthe other Macedonians.

I will understand completely if you do not include in that disscussion. I am very aware that this issue is very boring and time consuming. Thanks anyway.

Take care my friend... Macedonian 04:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find the newest comments on my talk page... Macedonian 04:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments are added on my talk page. Thanks for this discussion, it is quite nice to share ideas with someone who has good knowledge of the historical facts. Macedonian 02:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments are added on my talk page. BTW, I never asked you in which town you live in? Macedonian 04:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments added at my talk page. Do you think that maybe e-mails would be easier to comunicate through? Macedonian 04:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I added comments on my talk page, concerning your last post on it. Please check. Cheers, my friend... Macedonian 04:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments added at my talk page. Keep in touch, my friend. Also, feel free to erase the post about the wedding of my cousin I made. I do not want to offend anyone, I just wanted to explain you my point of view about hte issue. Macedonian^(talk) 02:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments added at my talk page. Macedonian^(talk) 03:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

More comments added at my talk. Macedonian^(talk) 05:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you please put me another reminder to read your comments on tyhe REX's page? I really have to go now urgently, but I wanna read them tommorow. Macedonian^(talk) 05:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

New comments added on my talk. Macedonian^(talk) 05:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

New comments added on my talk. Sorry if I offended you. It was not with purpose. Macedonian^(talk) 05:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I added another comments. Sorry it took several days, I didn't log on Wikipedia during this time at all. Macedonian^(talk) 05:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

New comments are added on my talk. Sorry for the delay, my friend. I am quite full of obligations these days. Take care... Macedonian^(talk) 14:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

chancellorship

Thanks :o) --Joy [shallot] 09:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians (ethnic group)

Of course you gave a clue. I appreciate every people's opinion :-) Bomac 17:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I fully agree that Macedonians are separate people from the others. But, what do you want to say in the part in which you mention the Montenegrins? Bomac 17:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, my friend, what's the matter? Bomac 16:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Wait a minute, wait a minute... Will you explain me what is going on with Ivo Andric, Rugjer Boskovic and Karl von Czoernig?!?

About Ivo Andric, I know that he was born in Travnik, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and some time he was living in Visegrad. About Rudjer Boskovic, I know that he was physician etc. As I've heard (on the Croatian national tv.), he is a Croat (Hrvat, Хрват)... Bomac 17:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

just some thoughts

Perhaps when someone calls someone else a friend, he tries to be cool and civil. I had some strong disagreements with the user that Probert and you seem to "disagree" with and as I told Probert he should try an RFC. Going around and calling him names doesn't accomplish anything. With my regards, +MATIA ☎ 18:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

????? HolyRomanEmperor 11:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes

I understand you completely. But, I can't find anything about Karl von Czo. and I am not very familiar with him, which means that I can't talk without arguments. Regards. Bomac 17:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about REX... Bomac 13:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello HolyRomanEmperor, I'm sorry for not responding to your many messages. I had a few essays to prepare and did not respond to any messages as I had very little time online. It was very rude of me to keep you waiting like this, but I couldn't help it. A vandal called User:SuperTroll lives in the same city as me and uses the same ISP as me. We both have dynamic IP, so to block him, they make a range block, which also, unfortunately puts me out of commission as well. That is why I had to use public computers if I wanted to edit Wikipedia, so I had relatively very little time online. David Gerard was just explaining to me what to do if a range block affected me.

I would like to say that you have been very helpful on the Macedonians (ethnic group) page, but unfortunately no one seems to listen to you. It's a shame really, as you are one of the few people editing that page with something approximating sanity :-)

Tell me something; does Serbia have any ambitions to join the EU? I mean Croatia does, but I haven't heard anything about Serbia.

REX 13:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

FYROM denar

Could you please vote at Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move if the article FYROM denar should be renamed Macedonian denar. I (and the whole world except Greeks) think that it should be called Macedonian denar. That is the name that the CIA World Factbook, the World Bank and every other bank on the planet uses. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 15:36, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments on Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move. Another favour, could you please vote support along with everyone else if you want the page to be moved back to Macedonian denar and was arbitraraly moved by Greek nationalists. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 17:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Bunjevački jezik

E, nisi dobro razumeo oko bunjevačkog jezika. Evo šta tamo piše: "In early 2005, the Bunjevac issue was again popularized when the Vojvodina government decided to allow the official use of "bunjevački language with elements of national culture" in schools in the following school year — the štokavian-ikavian dialect"

Dakle, bunjevački nije postao sedmi zvanični jezik već je samo njegova upotreba dozvoljena u školama. Na primer, i romski jezik se koristi u školama, ali nije službeni, to nije isto. User:PANONIAN

---

"Macedonian denar" versus "FYROM denar"

Could you please vote at Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move if the article FYROM denar should be renamed Macedonian denar. Macedonian 21:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, check the newest comments on my talk page. Cheers... Macedonian 21:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Bosniaks

To answer your question that you posted on my talk page, in my opinion and based on how I understand definitions raised here and elsewhere, Bosniaks are descendants of Bogumils (with Bogumils not necessarily being the only indiginous Bosnian civilization). I do believe that modern assumptions that all Bosniaks find their ancesetry in Serbs or Croats is a big streach (although few probably do). The issue is that one cannot confidently claim that either theory is absolutely correct as there are many contradicting sources and people interpret them differently. The conviction that makes most sense to me is that Bosniaks have primarily Bogumil line of decent when one observs some cultural and anthropological traits of Bogumils comapred to today’s Bosniaks.

I wanted to tell you that the studz of origin of Bosniaks is not quite my expertiese. As much as I may be informed by various sources I don't find that I can argue on this complex issue. What I have found is that a number of sources have contradicting information about this issue, many based on legends other on nationalistic ideals of Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. It seams that for many, proving Bosniak identity is an obsession used to define their own rightous historical claims and agendas. What I have experienced is that such manipulations with meanings, definitions, and facts only serve to support nationalistic agendas while the whole issue, although quite interesting, has very few uncontested definitions and theories.

On Bosnian Wikipedia you can find out more about bs:Fikret Abdić. --Dado 16:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

wiki babel

hi. instead of listing every language you know you could try Wikipedia:Babel. --Phil 22:08, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

if you mean genre, typically adventure and RPGs. my favorite series is Grand Theft Auto (series). and yours? --Phil 01:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

May I welcome you back to the Republic of Dubrovnik. I know you don't live there now, but on the internet, distance means nothing :-) Rex^(talk) 22:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Votes needed

There is a poll going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Requested move to move Arvanitic language to Arvanitic (linguistics), to reflect the fact that its status as a language or dialect is disputed. This is done in all other similar cases (Flemish (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics) etc). Please vote support if you support the move. Rex^(talk) 15:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you. God Bless you, God bless Serbia, for voting. If you need help with anything, anything at all, please ask me. Rex^(talk) 18:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

question

Do tell me, what sources call this language Arvanitika and what Arvanitic? What did you read that help you decide your vote. +MATIA ☎ 22:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

None of your buisness. YOU and THEATHENAE moved the page to Arvanitic language from Arvanitika which is where I originally had it. If you wanted Arvanitika, you should have left it! Rex^(talk) 22:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why you don't like the God bless Serbia, why? I think that that Montenegrin thing is a good idea. However, I will have to find sources that say that it is not a language in its own right. Rex^(talk) 22:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I've just searhed Britannica! No entry on Montenegrin language, but says that they speak SERBIAN. The missing link has been found, HA! Rex^(talk) 22:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Is Montenegre planning independence? Rex^(talk) 23:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

HolyRomanEmperor, I think you may have rushed into something on Talk:Montenegrin language. Let's find sources first, and have the poll later. We will have to look through Wikipedia policies to find some justification. Look how I did it on Talk:Arvanitic language. There are a lot of sources and policies which justify it. Please remove that poll notice and say that you would like to users to "consider" changing the name to Montenegrin (linguistics). I'll find sources and help you, I'll start the poll as well. Rex^(talk) 23:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

BosniaK and Croatian

Well I don't speak them :)

BTW, I've noticed you around.. you're OK :] -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 23:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As a libertarian, I belive in one's freedom to declare himself and to speak freely! I don't see why do you mind so much the fact that I've listed or haven't listed one language or another on my personal page, so that you're pressing me to declare myself the "proper way"? Generally, I'd take it as an offense, but in this case, I'm sure that you don't meen anything bad, and that it is just a curiosity. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 22:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I really don't have the time to elaborate my reasons to you right now, since it would be a rather long story (if you really want, we can open this discussion as well..), so for now, you will just have to respect and accept my right to declare myself. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 22:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

For start, I will explain about "Bosnian language" (this will be a long story as well, but not nearly as long as it could get). As a Bosnian Serb (born in Belgrade), I don't like the implications of the name "Bosnian language". Why? In Bosnia exist three nations, three cultures with their differences and simmilarities. I firmly belive that if a person is a Bosnian (like I am), he or she can be a Croat, a Serb or a Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim), or something else maybe. Now, there is (you're familiar with the background) a process of presenting everything that comes from Bosnia as a Bosniak cultural heritage, by puting the sign of equivalence between a Bosnian and Bosniak. Bosnian Serbs (and Bosnian Croats) feel uncomfortable about this, since this denies them the right to declare themselves as Serbs or Croats. I fully respect Bosniak culture, but I do see a (considerable) difference between term Bosnian and term Bosniak.

There was an interesing debate on Serbian and Bosniak Wikipedia about this question.. Community of the Bosniak Wikipedia (Bosanska Wikipedia) argued that Serbian Wikipedia is provocating because of the form of interwiki link to bs: Wiki. Link was (and still is) in this form "бошњачки (Bosanski)" - like in every other language, first was written name of the language in Serbian, and then in original. So, "we" did respect the fact that "they" call their language "bosanski" although in Serbian, this language is called бошњачки. They demanded from us to change "бошњачки" into "босански", because this was "their language, and they have the right to name it" (notice that noone tried to rename the language, simply that language has different name in Serbian and Bosniak (like кафана-kahvana)). It would be same as if for instance Serbs would insist that in English, their language should be called Srpski, not Serbian. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 22:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Da ti odgovorim umesto Gorana, da li, ako govoriš srpski jezik ne razumiješ hrvatski i bosanski, zavisi od toga šta se podrazumeva pod hrvatskim i bosanskim jezikom. Nikola 09:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

When it comes to Croatian, story is rather long and I don't have the time to write it now.. there is however one "essay", I wrote on the matter of Serbo-Croatian relations, maybe a year ago. Essay is writen as a response to particular (not very actuell right now) occasion, but it still outlines my wievs on this question. Essay is in Serbian, since I had no time nor will to translate it (and simple translation would be of no good to average Engilsh reader unfamilliar with historical facts). Note that my wievs and reasons aren't very common, and approach them as an original research, and personal wievs. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 16:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Well, I haven't left Bosnia, so I can't return to it ;) You see, I've been born, and I live in Belgrade. I am Bosnian Serb, since both of my parents are from Bosnia, but they moved to Belgrade before I was born. I do have a lot of relatives in Bosnia, and I visit Republika Srpska often. (A bit strange combination - Bosnian Serb from Belgrade, but there you have it :) .. When we're at it, where are you "stationed" if it isn't a secret :) -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 19:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Urgent votes needed

Hello, there is another vote going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Compromise 2. I'd recommend Arvanitic as it is the English name, it does not prescribe whether it is a dialect or not (it also doesn't offend anyone) and above all, it is only 9 letters long (very easy to type in an address bar) and very easy to link to. Rex^(talk) 19:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello HolyRomanEmperor, could you please for Arvanitic as well at the poll. PLEASE. Rex^(talk) 21:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

In Northern Ireland, the dispute is like Serbia-Croatia, mostly religion. Apart from that, they are exactly the same; they speak the same language, they look alike. Now, things are changing. The Catholics who traditionally were pro-Irish are starting to be Unonists and the Protestants are starting to support unior with the Republic of Ireland. It's weird, isn't it. All these things are weird. Montenegro especially. Rex^(talk) 22:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, please vote for Arvanitic at that poll. There are a few choises, you can vote for more than one. Rex^(talk) 22:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That kind of propaganda is ridiculous! Totally ridiculous! A "Montenegrin language". HA! Rex^(talk) 22:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'll see to the Montenegro poll, don't worry about it. Could you please vote for Arvanitic at the poll Talk:Arvanitic language#Compromise 2. You have only voted for Arvanitic (linguistics), it woul be best if Arvanitic got a vote as well. You can vote fro more than one. Rex^(talk) 22:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

GOD BLESS YOU! (I'll leave out the God Bless Serbia bit as you didn't like it). If you need help with ANYTHING, you know who to ask. I was searching Yahoo! for Montenegrin language. Do you know what I found? 148,000 results and all from Propaganda Websites. No neutral sources at all. Montenegrin language indeed, that's a load of rubbish. I just searched Britannica for Montenegrin language and do you know what the result was? NOTHING! There is no such thing as a Montenegrin language. Rex^(talk) 22:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

EU?

Check out these links:

• EU deal raises Serbian hopes
• Enlarging Europe: Serbia and Montenegro
• Enlarging Europe: Macedonia
• Enlarging Europe: Albania
• Enlarging Europe: Croatia
  Rex^(talk) 10:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Dakle...

Pa, moras da se ulogujes tamo... Kakav problem imas prilikom pisanja na srpskoj Vikipediji? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Leaving

HolyRomanEmperor, I'm sorry, but I can't help you with Montenegrin. I am leaving Wikipedia as it has become an unfortunate obsession of mine and is taking up too much of my time. Feel free to e-mail me. I'm sorry for telling you that I would help you with renaming Montenegrin and then going back on my word. Rex^(talk) 22:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Serbs in Croatia

I'd like to write you a detailed answer, but can't find the time while I'm on Wikipedia... in short, what makes you think that relevant entries won't disappear from articles on Serbs in Croatia as well? If you'd wish to discuss this further, it would be the best to email me, that would be more handy for me. Nikola 11:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, why haven't you reverted Elephantus back? Regarding article about Serbs in Croatia, again, please email me. I'd like to discuss it, but maybe I'll be off from Wikipedia for a while, but will continue to follow e-mail. Nikola 20:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Serbs = Orthodox Christians?

Is it your general opinion that all Serbs are/were Orthodox Christians? HolyRomanEmperor 22:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Before 1945, when many Serbs abandoned Orthodox Christianity in favour of Communism (a religion of sorts, really) and stopped baptising their children, yes, they all were Orthodox Christians. Many well-known people who migrated to Serbia from other countries in the 19th century weren't considered proper Serbs until they converted to Orthodoxy (it was similar in Russia). --Elephantus 14:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Medieval history

Alas, my knowledge of Medieval history is limited (I'm more interested in modern times). Try to contact User:PANONIAN, or User:CrniBombarder!!!. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 01:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Albania

My thoughts are not that Albanians should fight for a greater country, but a united country. I support the idea of unification of all lands with Albanian majority and thus formation of an Ethnic Albania. This idea is more reasonable in the time European nations want to unite, while a nation within Europe is divided into several countries. I hope I've given you a clear answer.--Epirus 20:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Mate! I didn't change the total number of Albanians into 20,000,000. I may have tried for revert of some other information and then change the total number too. It was only an accident. However, I believe that there are more than 6,000,000 ethnic Albanians, if we include those who are not fluent in Albanian.

On the other hand, I proposed the deletion of an article about human trade in Kosovo because it did not provide useful information. In fact it only said that NATO and United Nations are administering human traffic in Kosovo.

Actually, I am not concerned with the unification of Serbian people. Serbs, Croatian, and Bosniaks should identify themselves as an ethnic group (or nation), but they have been split up due to their religion. They speak the same language; they are the same people. Moreover, these three groups are all mixed within the same region of Balkans. Here some Serbs, then some Bosniaks, then some Croats etc. It is the same case with Albanians, but they did not face problems because of religious diversity.--Epirus 02:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Not to forget that there are catholic Albanians. Bomac 10:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I see you have objected the move of Srbica to Skenderaj. I did not do anything except interpret what the official acts say. The municipality assembly decided to name the town “Skenderaj” and this name is found on top of the gate of the assembly building.

I would also like to ask you for respect to other people’s feelings. You call yourself a holy emperor, but you mess with other people’s property. User:Getoar is my personal page, I own it, and you shouldn’t care what it contains. --Epirus 02:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Serb-Croat border in the Early Medieval Ages

"Was the Cetina-Una line the historic border of Croats and Serbs in the Early Medieval Ages?"

Najšire je prihvaćeno mišljenje da je granica bila Cetina-Vrbas. Nacrtao sam i mapu u vezi toga. Možeš je videti ovde:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serb_lands04.jpg

PANONIAN 22:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

---

"www.rastko.org notifies Una as the most western region where the Serbs dwell; while some sorces go even wester than that."

Da, ali to su alternativne teorije. Cetina-Vrbas je najšire prihvaćena teorija, kako kod srpskih, tako i kod hrvatskih istoričara. Postoje takođe hrvatski istoričari koji tvrde da je granica bila na Drini. Uporedi ove tri mape koje predstavljaju te tri različite teorije:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kpdai30.gif
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serb_lands04.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trpimir.jpg

PANONIAN 23:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Na sve tri mape su u stvari prikazane granice Srbije i Hrvatske, a ne Srba i Hrvata. PANONIAN 23:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Just checked, the Times Atlas of World History, Cankarjeva zalozba, Ljubljana-Zagreb 1988, has a map of the area in the 9-10 centuries similar to the one that PANONIAN drew. The map is very rough, it shows the western border of Serbia starting at the river Bosna, then following roughly the present Doboj-Jajce line to Vrbas. There is Bosnia, too, drawn inside Serbia, taking roughly the southern half of the area between Croatia and Drina. In the map for the 11th century this Serbia breaks into three parts: no man's land in the northern 25-30%, Serbia/Raska between upper Drina and Morava valleys, and Bosnia to the west of it. The border of Croatia is rougly the same in both maps, from Bosna to Vrbas and then roughly present day Prozor-Imotski-Split.

Miranche 00:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

---

The atlas shows roughly what we were taught in schools in 1980's in Croatia, so this was probably the official version in ex-Yu. As for what's "generally accepted" in Croatia now, I don't know. Remeber, we are talking early medieval history, barely a century after Serbs and Croats converted to Christianity, 100-200 years before the Great Schism, and way before modern national identities formed -- so the question whether there were Croats living all the way to the Drina and/or Serbs all the way to Una may not even be well-defined. From what I know, the records about this time are extremely patchy, and it is not clear to me which criteria one would use to determine who was a "Croat" or a "Serb".

Miranche 11:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

---

I took a look at my "Povijesni atlas za osnovnu školu" dated 1980. (which is currently at hand), and border in time of king Tomislav and Petar Krešimir IV was on rivers Bosna and Neretva (Zahumlje was crossing the Neretva in one part of the river. "Povijest Hrvata" by Vjekoslav Klaić has no maps, and my reference book (on the subject) from Macan is not here. But I agree with Miranche, borders from 500-800 are hard to tell, because there were no states in todays meaning of that word. Simply put, we can be sure that borders were on the rivers and mountain ridges, but material evidence for that time is extremely weak. SpeedyGonsales 12:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I wanted to be fair and emphasized that Zahumlje (which was not under Croatian jurisdiction) was crossing Neretva in maps I mentioned above. SpeedyGonsales 21:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

---

I tend to agree to what has been said by Miranche and SpeedyGonsales... In medieval history, "borders" are not borders in the modern sense of the word; same goes for "states" and "government". Roughly speaking: you have a feudal lord that claims ownership over a patch of land. Those who happen to live on that patch of land are his "subjects". As for national identities - it's even more complicated. All in all, the question itself is meaningless unless we stipulate: in historical context, what does "borders" mean, what does "Croats" mean, what does "Serbs" mean? GregorB 12:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Yes :). You mean, of course, Sroats and Herbs. :LOL: Miranche 15:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Uzivo

Well since you're in Belgrade, why don't you attend one of our more-less regular wiki meetups? We've just spoken on IRC, and we agreed that we would really like you to come and meet us. Here you can see reports and photos from our past meetings. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 19:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

About borders

According to DAI(written by emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos) border between Serbs and Croats are rivers Cetina and Vrbas.

(Some are claiming that borders are Cetina and Una(maps of it can be found on internet),but it`s pure fiction.)

You have DAI on wikisources here [7]. --CrniBombarder!!! | Talk 20:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

---

It`s hard to say what was real border between Serbs and Croats then but it is believed that west from these borders(Cetina and Vrbas) majority was Croats and east of it Serbs we`re majority.

Also medieval Croatia never ruled over Bosnia(later Bosnia and Croatia was in Hungary) and Bosnia was region in Serbia(special region but still inside Serbia.)

Distinction between Serbs and Craots was growing bigger after 17th century,not before it.When I say distinction I mean hate created by others between these two peoples.

Serbs came to Krajina(Frontier region) when that part became a solid border between Austria ant Otomans. --CrniBombarder!!! | Talk 22:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

---

I haven`t understood your question since you asked me how it is possible that RIVERS Krka,Kupa,D(rina) existed before Otomans came. --CrniBombarder!!! | † 07:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Well it`s founded by orthodox princess like monastery near Pest about 1100 which was orthodox but that doesn`t mean that orthodox we`re majority there.

Same thing happened here(I presume) Croats(catholics) are majority,but it doesn`t mean that all who lived there are Croats(catholics).Serbs became majority in these parts after Turks,but there was some of them before it,probably. --CrniBombarder!!! | † 11:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

---

I want send to you some materials about early history of Serbia, but you have not e-mail. Contact me on domatrios-et-yahoo.com :Domatrios 22:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Hello?

Yes? How may I help you? Adam Bishop 22:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I saw that, but I'd rather not get involved in that... Adam Bishop 13:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I don't really know anything about Serbs and Croats. And I know how frustrating the subject is for people who do know something about them, so I don't want to get involved. Too much nationalism for me... Adam Bishop 20:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Montenegrin

Hej, nisam ja dodao tagove za "crnogorski", ali očito netko je. Nisam mijenjao tekst -- na svim tagovima za jezike ex-Yu sam popravio linkove, tekst sam mijenjao samo na "sh", a na "cg" tagove sam naletio slučajno. Ne znam ti ja baš taj crnogorski, al valjda ekipa kojoj je materinji zna kako se šta kaže, jelda :) ... Inače jedini razlog što još nemamo istarski je valjda to što su Istrijani preveliki hedonisti da puno visili na Wikipediji... a čekamo Željka Malnara da propiše pravopis peščeničkog, evo samo što nije. :))) Miranche 00:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Petar, Prince of Zachlumia

Izvini, ali ne znam ništa o ovome što si me pitao. User:PANONIAN

Montenegrin move

I'll see what I can do today. I'll post a message on the talk page some time today. Rex^(talk) 21:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The Montenegrin thing doesn't seem to be working out! I've tried, I'm sorry. Rex^(talk) 19:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Catholic Serbs

To see why it got deleted, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Catholic Serbs. I have saved the page, and I could e-mail it to you, if you'd like to see it. Nikola 08:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

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I will not have net access next 2 weeks, but later I'm open for cooperation. SpeedyGonsales 15:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but you will have to do the work, and I will only answer the questions till 1st January 2006. SpeedyGonsales 16:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

For Ivo Andrić please see talk page on croatian wikipedia, which clearly puts that he himself in early years credited as Croat, which he later denounced. So if you want him, take him :-) Just don't forget to mention where he is born, and that he is Serb not by birth, but by choice. I thought that you meant to write a sensible article, not a list...

I don't see reason for making lists of Catholic Serbs or Orthodox Croats, thats pure waste of my time. SpeedyGonsales 18:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Medo Pucić

Dal bi mogao napisat članak o Puciću? Postojala je Srpska stranka u Dubrovniku? Luka Jačov 18:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Nisam ni znao da bi trebao nečije za editiranje informacije. Iskreno mislim da to u tom članku nije bitno. Mislim da bi taj podatak trebao biti upotrebljen u članku o Puciću. Dal raspolažeš kaqe informacije o knezu Apoloniju pošto je na internetu teško doć do informacija o njemu Luka Jačov 21:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Pa mislim ako smo već spomenuli da je iz Dubrovnika da to nije potrebno. Zašto ne napišeš članak o Puciću i link na Molise Slavic na članak o njemu? Knez Apolonije Dubrovčanin koji je stao na stranu JNA za vrjeme zadnjeg rata. Imaš možda ICQ? Luka Jačov 22:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I kad misliš napisati članak o Puciću? Koji su članci koje si ti započeo? Luka Jačov 22:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Znači Zorsines je zasad jedini koji si baš ti započeo? Malo je kratak, zar ne? Varivode su tvoje rodno mjesto? Luka Jačov 23:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

So have come u decieded to write an article about Varivode? Luka Jačov 23:13, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Pa gledaj, činiš mi se da si ti više oboružan podacima o njemu. Ti si pravoslavni Hrvat? Luka Jačov 19:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC) Zašto si onda tolko htio da se napiše da je bio Srbin:)?Luka Jačov 19:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree. Luka Jačov 08:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Answer

You may have noticed that many things were happening arround several articles I was involved hence I could have not participated in the discussion with you. About many subjects that you have posted I could not give you better answer other than what was already written on topics in question. As for the last remark regarding reconciliation which I found particulary interesting in trying to understand why you keep asking these questions, while there is no reconciliation necessay between some Serbs and Bosniaks as they were never in conflict and fought for the same philosphical issue, with others reconciliation cannot start until truth is established and until people responsible for that truth are ready to start taking responsibility. On both individual and collective level--Dado 15:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You may want to think about what is propaganda and what is a fact. I don't know if talking to you makes a person more neutral. It is a slippery claim --Dado 15:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

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I don't see anything bad going on on Boskovic, what are you referring to? Nikola 18:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

It may interest you to look at ad hominem article as a way to understand what is a fact and what is logical fallacy (see also Category:Logical fallacies). All cases that you noted somehow are part of this fallacy.--Dado 14:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry for your sister. We all (from the Balkans) have our war experiences and many who write here have them as well. I have lost a grandmother, 4 uncles, a cousin, an aunt and many friends. One of my uncles was shot in the concentration camp in Manjaca. I have lived through ethnic cleansing and refugee camps in 3 different countries including Serbia, Croatia and Germany. Mine is actually one of the better stories from the war as I have heard much worse. All of this does not necessarily have to make me or anyone else biased if one has an emotional intelegence to cope with these things. Some don't. If there is a specific thing or article that you need help with I will gladly look into it. --Dado 16:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Here is some info [8] that may help you but you may already know this. Be careful about numbers game especially when you are talking about large numbers. You got to be dead on. As for my story, I spent 1 year in hiding and virtual house arrest in Belgrade and Rijeka after the ethnic cleansing of Banja Luka and spent 2 years in several refugee camps in Germany.--Dado 23:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Kosovo

I didn't ask you about Kosovo because you told me you are not Serbian, you told me that you are an Orthodox Croat. I wanted to know what Serbs think. Rex^(talk) 22:40, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry the Montenegrin language move is not working out. I tried... Rex^(talk) 22:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm rather sceptical of the "Greater Albania" dream. I believe that whenever possible, all lands inhabited by people of the same nationality should be in one state. In that case, annexing Kosovë to Albania would make sense, it's 90% Albanian! However, the Albanian nationalists are seeking to annex parts of the Republic of Macedonia, of Serbia and Montenegro (Preševo and Ulcinj) and of Greece (Çamëria). I think that would be silly, as there would be Macedonian, Montenegrin and Greek minorities (majorities in certain areas) in the Greater Albania. The way I see it, is that a balance should be worked out so that each nation state possesses the land which is inhabited primarily by people on the nationality in question. Therefore I would oppose Albania annexing northern Greece or Greece annexing southern Albania. According to UNPO, there are 280,000 Ethnic Greeks in southern Albania (the Vorioepirote Greeks who are Orthodox Christians) and 200,000 Ethnic Albanians in northern Greece (Çam Albanians who are either Orthodox Christians or Muslims). It simply wouldn't make sense for Greece to annex Southern Albania and have a massive Albanian majority there or Albania to annex Northern Greece and have a massive Greek majority there. With regards to Greater Serbia and Croatia, I don't know much about them, but what I say above, as far as I'm concerned, applies in these cases. Expansion should be only to areas where Serbs or Croatians as the case may be for the overwhelming majority. As far as the wiki-articles go, I think that they should all be de-POVized and wikified. Rex^(talk) 21:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's quite scary. I mean according to that map, there are homogenous Serbian areas in Bosnia. I really don't know. I suppose annexation may be on the cards if they were close to the Serbian border and there were no other significant minorities there. If not, I think a loosely federated Bosnia would suffice - segregation stops bickering. Rex^(talk) 20:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Article unknown to me

Care to take a look at Ivan Gundulic now, please? HolyRomanEmperor 20:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I looked. Unfortunately, I can't remember ever editing that article or discussing it in any other forum. Please remind me :-) — David Remahl 20:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Ma, sve je u redu

Nego, ja sam malo prestao da kontaktiram sa tobom zato sto je Goran Obradovic obecao da ce te kontaktirati, posto je ustanovio da si iz Zemuna. Mi se lagano organizujemo i pravimo lokalni ogranak Zaduzbine Vikimedija, pa bi mogao da nam se pridruzis. Imas moj telefon na mojoj strani, pa me mozes i pozvati. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Mapa

Ej, hvala za mapu. Inače znam i za ovu teoriju po kojoj je zapadna granica Srbije bila reka Bosna. Dakle postoje 4 teorije o zapadnoj granici: Una, Vrbas, Bosna i Drina. Ona mapa koju sam ja nacrtao je urađena prema mapi iz školskog istorijskog atlasa koji sam kupio na sajmu knjiga, a pošto su taj atlas ipak radili neki stručnjaci, njihovu mapu možemo smatrati verodostojnom, mada je i ova teorija o granici na reci Bosni dosta prihvaćena. Verovatno je istina negde na sredini između ove dve teorije (reka Bosna ili reka Vrbas). PANONIAN 14:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, hvala na objašnjenju, nisam se mnogo zanimao za tu problematiku, pa sam mislio da su to samo različite teorije. PANONIAN 16:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I am

Jewish. --VKokielov 22:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

A misunderstanding?

You wrote:

Please, be careful when you edit articles like Ivan Gundulic without any explaination. HolyRomanEmperor 14:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Please stop vandalising Ruđer Bošković and other articles...

I'm sorry, I don't understand. I corrected some errors and removed irrelevant portions of text. Why are you putting back incorrect data? --Zmaj 15:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

A person is not their parents. --Zmaj 08:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Communism

Здраво! Were you aware what was going on in communist Yugoslavia? What was it like? Was it better then, or is it better now? Rex^(talk) 20:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sanity

Hvala :) Miranche 11:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Stefan Dragutin i Ugrin Čak

Gde si našao podatak da je Stefan Dragutin nasledio Srem i Slavoniju od Ugrina Čaka 1311? Ja sam pročitao da je posle smrti Ugrina Čaka njegova teritorija priključena Ugarskoj (jer on je bio polu-nezavisni vladar). Imaš li više podataka o tome? PANONIAN (talk) 16:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

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Hm, ovo je malo zamršena tema, jer izvori koje ja imam o tome govore različite stvari. Nije mi baš jasan odnos Stefana Dragutina i Ugrina Čaka, a ni to ko je od njih i kada vladao Sremom i Slavonijom. Na primer, u knjizi "Istorija Mađara" (Beograd, 2002), piše da je Ugrin Čak vladao i Sremom i Slavonijom, sa sedištem u Iloku i Slavonskoj Požegi i da je odmah posle njegove smrti 1311 godine, tom teritorijom zavladao ugarski kralj. Ne bih sada ništa menjao u članku o Stefanu Dragutinu dok ne budem siguran šta je tu tačno a šta ne. Inače, što se tiče Dragutinove ćerke, to sam popravio. PANONIAN (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

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RfA for Halibutt

Hello HRE! In case you are unaware, Halibutt is going through the administrator vote process. I believe that any input you could provide would be valued. Olessi 19:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Poland and Serbs

Regarding your question from Halibutt's page, I think that the answer would be 'not much'. There have been few interaction between those countries. Through if you need the info, I can try looking for some public opnion polls on attitudes towards foreigners.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Boskovic i ostali

Daj, bre, iskulirajte to :) Mislim, zajebavajte se koliko hocete, ali nemojte se svadjati. Pozabavicu se detaljnije ovime posle Osnivacke skupstine 3. decembra. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 19:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm

In general, probably Croats. But this doesn't mean much and varies from region to region. Live Forever 19:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

No: such statements would be ahistorical. Live Forever 21:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe in the Bogomil theory. Live Forever 18:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for just now responding. By "theory" I was referring to the view that the Bosnian church was comprised of Bogomils. Origin of Bosniaks is a different matter, although the presence of the Bosnian church certainly contributed to it. Live Forever 00:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yugoslavia in Polish common knowledge

Your question at my talk page is a tad general, so I suppose you mean some general knowledge the Poles have on Serbia. Frankly speaking, our stereotypes on former Yugoslavian countries are quite similar to those popular in most of western Europe I guess. You know, Tito, paradise in 1970's and 1980's, the richest and most liberal country in the Eastern Bloc, then the cruel war (mostly portrayed as a war between Serbs and everyone else) and then Milosevic's semi-dictatorial rule.

As to the stereotypes on people, in general former Yugoslavians (be it Serbs, Croats or anyone else, the division onto various countries is still not that well-established in common knowledge, I guess) are considered friendly, amicable and happy people, with love for dance, alcohol coffee. I can't think of any negative stereotype of Yugoslavians that would be popular in Poland. Feel free to ask me some more specific questions, perhaps I could be of some help. Halibutt 21:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Some negative stereotypes might have arised as a result of the Balkan conflicts in the 90's - this was my hypothesis before I searched for data for you, and while I could verify it as much as I could, the data I found seems to tentatively support it. Here are some statistics from Polish opinon polls I found, made by Polish leading poller, Centrum Badania Opinii Publicznej - unfortunately, I was unable to find date for 1990-1998, nonetheless, change between 1980s and 2000s is significant:

• 1978, 1980, 1982, pdf like 70, 55, 56% respectively, don't like 1, 1, 2
• 1998 13% like, 50% don't (other are neutral or don't care)
• 2001 17% like, 42% don't
• 2003, pdf 17% like, 45% don't,
• 2005, pdf 15% like, 40% don't

Some other statistics:

• 1993 war - 60% was for intervention, 20% against;
• Start of 99 Nato intervention - 50% supported, 39% opposed
• End of 99 Nato Intervention - 41% supported, 44% opposed
• late 99, after the end of Nato interv. - 38% supports NATO action (8% opposed), only 3% support Serb side of the conflict without any objections;

I hope this helps. If you want other polls, I recommend you contact CBOS, if they send you those missing reports, I can look at them and translate the relevant part from Polish for you. Take care, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Same with me. But I guess that was to be expected: waging a war rarely boosts one image. And that was a very unpleasant conflict, in Europe - bound to attract much attention and shape the image of involved parties for years to come.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Lingvistika i ostalo

Da, po obrazovanju bi trebalo da sam lingvist. Mislim da si primetio moj tekst iz standardizacije srpskog jezika. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Ona strana je bila namenjena jednom nedojebanom fasisti koji je, kao, pokusavao da me maltretira. Uostalom, to je taman infrastruktura za sledece pacijente. Ne odnosi se, naravno, na konkretna pitanja, pa cak i "poviseni ton" rasprave. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Ne priznajem koncept nacije, pa zato u odnosu na tu kategoriju nisam nista. Bavim se srpskom kulturom i deo sam nje, a etnicki sam sa sigurnoscu "Balkanski Sloven" ;) To je, jednostavno, klimav teren. U principu, svi moji iz porodice i uglavnom svi rodjaci se izjasnjavaju kao Srbi. Po ocevoj strani preci iz juzne Srbije (dakle, 19. vek) su mi najverovatnije bili muslimani, a po majcinoj su protestanti iz Vojvodine. U danasnjim generacijama svi su (bar nacelno) pravoslavci. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay

Sorry for the delay my friend, I had some private obligations, so I was not on Wikipedia for several days. Please see new comment on my tal. Macedonian^(talk) 06:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Despotate of Epirus

I'm not sure what you want me to do...the Serbian "rulers" are not really rulers at all, and it certainly didn't become a separate "empire". It was just part of Serbia, briefly. This is already explained in the article. I don't think the Serbians should be listed as rulers. Adam Bishop 16:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Stefan Dragutin

Ej izvini, malo sam zauzet ovih dana, ali ako smatraš da nešto treba popraviti u članku o Stefanu Dragutinu, slobodno to sam popravi. Ok? PANONIAN (talk) 22:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

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Look, I know that the articles on Gundulic, Boskovic and Andric are constantly being reverted. But why don't you revert back? I can't do everything myself! Nikola 19:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way, as I told to PANONIAN, Rx StrangeLove is helping about dispute on Talk:History of Republika Srpska. I see that (s)he is cautious, friendly and generally wants to help, so I believe it would be good if you would come to the talk page and give your comments, especially on the attempt to rewrite the article. Nikola 20:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Jews

HRE, it shouldn't be difficult for you to understand. Hitler didn't sit over books with thick glasses trying to sort out what a Jew is. Hitler took the Jews, scapegoats (not always outside their stereotype, either - although what right do I have to speculate?), and said they have to go. --VKokielov 21:19, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

HRE, tvoje pitanje nema velikog smisla upravo zato sto nitko osim Zidova samih nista o tome ne mari. Svakako, pitanje je malo bitnije od onoga o katolickim Srbima iliti pravoslavnim Hrvatima, ali usprkos ovome imamo dvostruku cinjenicu: prvo, nikome ozbiljnom covjeku niti u glavu ne bi islo da postane Zidov po svojoj inicijativi ako nema s Zidovima veze; drugo, Zidovi ne tragaju za obozavaocima. Uoci toga, da, Zidovi su ravnopravno narod kao i religija. No ta religija, osim sto drzi onaj narod zajedno kroz vrlo teske prilike, nema veze s anti-semitizmom. --VKokielov 21:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Positions

HRE, it isn't a good idea to fight anything on Wikipedia. You haven't a white horse and armor. The rest of us - us foreigners - can handle the Balkan biases just as well as we handle biases in Israel -- or regarding the Ku Klux Klan. --VKokielov 01:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

You said you're here to fight Croatian propaganda. --VKokielov 18:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

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Will I have the time for what? -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 21:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

3RR Info

hi. In a nutshell, the 3RR means: Do not revert a page more than 3 times in 24 hours or you may be blocked from editing for (usually) 24 hours. Exceptions are only to fix simple vandalism (NOT content disputes). The reverts do not have to be the same section/text of the article. Details on Wikipedia:Three-revert rule. Violations can be listed on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Not all listings do lead to a block, however. Hope this clarifies the 3rr for you. -- Chris 73 | Talk 19:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Tvoji članci

Što se članaka tiče mogu ti dati savet da svaki novi članak koji napišeš ubaciš u neku kategoriju (da bi ljudi mogli da ga nađu). Na primer kategorije: "Serbian history", "History of Montenegro", "History of Serbia and Montenegro", itd. I dobro bi bilo napraviti i više linkova ka drugim člancima iz tih novih članaka. Što se odgovarajućih mapa tiče, nemam ništa što bi bilo zgodno za ove članke, međutim ako nešto nađem ubaciću na Vikipediju. PANONIAN (talk) 23:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

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Serbs, History

Holy, the history section in Serbs is moved by Nikola to History of Serbs, not History of Serbia. I think the info you're looking for is there. IMO these history pages should be reorganized as they're currently not cross-linked appropriately, and probably contain duplicated information. However, most of the information is available starting from Serbs page; I'll also update Origin of Serbs with info that used to be in Serbs, just when I find some time (hopefully Tuesday). OK? Regards, Duja 10:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

3RR on Oj, svijetla majska zoro

Hi. You reverted the article Oj, svijetla majska zoro 4 times within 24 hours (in particular adding a serbian language claim that was previously removed). Hence I have blocked you for 24 hours from editing. Also, this is not against you or the content of your edits, but merely puts a stop to excessive reverts. Details can be found on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:HolyRomanEmperor. For the next 24 hours your edits are limited to your talk page. -- Chris 73 | Talk 13:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

eto me opet :)

Nakon kraćeg razdoblja neaktivnosti, odlučio sam ipak ponovo učitati svoj monstruozni watchlist :)

Samo sam preletio preko ovog pregleda Vlastimirovića i njihovih domena - izgleda dobro, to bi trebalo ugraditi u članak House of Vlastimirović pa i u History of Serbia i drugdje.

Ispravio sam onaj preopćeniti spomen Krešimirovog utjecaja na južni dio obale, hvala. To sam pisao dosta prije i na osnovu samo jednog izvora koji je u biti nejasan.

Nisam siguran više u kojem je stanju Croatia#History, pregledat ću page history. Takav eksponiran članak konstantno doživljava hrpu vandalizma pa ga katkad i ja samo instant-revertiram - provjerit ću što je promaklo... [nakon par minuta] Ne vidim što je, moj zadnji objašnjeni edit je od 8 October 2005. Možda je prije toga bilo problema?

Sjećam se da je Mir Harven na jednom mjestu napisao da su svi Kotromanići bili katolici, ali se ne sjećam reference - ako je drugačije molim te napiši kako je, i poželjno dodaj izvor.

Ispravit ću ovo sa 140K. To sam načuo na televiziji na jednom od niza susreta ministara gdje je bio i BiH ministar pa sam valjda spojio greškom.

--Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small> 14:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

HolyRomanEmperor is hereby awarded the Surreal Barnstar for exhibiting just the right amount of whimsy at just the right moment.

!מזל טוב

from Izehar

Hi, the Barnstar was due to the fact that, having checked your edit count, I noticed that you have spent 77% of your time here on talk pages. In other words, you are a "socialising" Wikipedian, who, as the star says, exhibits just the right amount of whimsy at just the right moment. I am not an administrator, I'm just someone who give people awards, when they deserve them. What is your nationality? Your userpage is quite conflicting - I suspect you're either Serbian or Croatian. Izehar 16:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

In which one were you born and in which one do you live? Izehar 19:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Serbia and Montegro articles

Hi, I see you're in the category for those Wikipedians from Serbia & Montenegro. I'm trying to create a project whereby seperate articles for just Serbia OR Montenegro are written to an acceptable level, especially considering the possibility that 2006 may see the two nations seperate and become independent states. If that were to occur Wikipedia should have articles written to the standard of other national articles. It would be useful to have the input of Wikipedians living in the area. Please post any views here, not at my talk page. Thank You Grunners 18:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Joy-eva talk strana

Vidio sam ja da si je s**bao jos onomad, ali reko' vratice on sam. Bolje da je nisi vracao, opet ce se ucitavati 100 godina :-). Duja 16:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Why did they treat you like that? Izehar 16:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

What religion are you? Izehar 16:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

So that's why they expelled you - most the only thing that differentiated the Serbs from the Croats in the political sense was religion. Croats are Roman Catholics whereas Serbs are Easern Orthodox. Now, what citizenship do you have? How do you feel, like a Serb or a Croatian (or a Yugoslav)? Izehar 16:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I see, you live in Belgrade now, right. Would you return to Croatia if you got the chance? Where is Croatia were you from? Dubrovnik? Izehar 16:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You could apply to return, couldn't you? Under International law, refugees have that right. Do you have any family there, or does your whole family live with you in Belgrade? If so, then moving would be very hazardous. Izehar 17:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's ridiculous, well as Croatia has ambitions to join the EU, they will have to be observant of EU and International law. They may not though, if Serbia and M. don't allow Catholic Serbs to return. There always is the option to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, but I know that appeals there cost about 30,000 €. Most people cannot afford that. Izehar 17:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Typical, isn't it? Can you still visit Croatia? Do you have any family there? Izehar 17:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Can't you stay in Serbia? I know that they will probably join the EU much later than Croatia (they may not though), but I think it will probably take years for them to compensate you (if they ever will). This is happening everyehere, Israel, the UK, France, Germany, Greece, Russia. Izehar 17:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

According to Nationmaster Statistics, from an economic point of view, Serbia is n. 98 and Croatia is n. 73. However, you will see that Estonia is n. 111, and they joined the EU last summer, so I don't know why they are not letting you in. It's not the money. Izehar 17:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Petty nationalism - that's what's is keeping the troubles in Northern Ireland going. And in Cyprus and Palestine. That's why I am an anti-nationalist. Izehar 18:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's what's happening in Palestine as we speak - designating native populations as "ethnic minorities". Izehar 18:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You have a point - you have Serbian citizenship right? Can citizens from all former Yugoslav countries move freely from one country to the other (that's what happens in the British Commonwealth). Izehar 18:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

All this trouble is a shame, isn't it? Also, if all "nationalities", who all speak varieties of the same language (I live in North East England - we have a very strong dialect, which cannot be understood in the south) then "Yugoslavia" would be a much more important state. Divide and rule... Izehar 18:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

To change the subject, why don't you archive your talk page, it really is too long and takes me quite some time for it to load. See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page on how to do it, or if you like, I'll do it for you. Izehar 18:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Archived

I'm afraid I can't archive just the top half. It has to be all or none. I archived the whole lot. Izehar 18:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I read somewhere that you are a historian. Why dont you add the:

HistThis user is a historian

to your userpage? Izehar 18:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Unhappy with username

Hi. You could try Wikipedia:Changing username, or just stop using this one and get another username. Ideally, you would make a small message and a link on User:HolyRomanEmperor and User talk:HolyRomanEmperor about the name change and that this account is inactive. -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

For legal reasons, i think the name has to stay in the edit summaries. If you really want to retire, just add a big note to the top of your user or talk page. An example:

This user has voluntarily retired, and this account is inactive. You may leave messages on the talk page, but they probably won't be answered.

-- Chris 73 | Talk 09:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

World citizenry

Well, the Balkans used to be populated by many Jews until the Holocaust. There were large Jewish communities in Thessaloniki, Sofia, Tirana, Belgrade, Istanbul, Dubrovnik and Bitola. Izehar 13:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Have you seen the article on the World Service Authority? They are this organisation claiming to have renounced their original nationality and citizenship, in order to live as so called "citizens of the World". It seems to be a joke really, but as you are a cosmopolitan, what they have to say may appeal to you. Izehar 13:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The Exodus

The Exodus both in its gramatical as well as in historical meaning refers to the departure of Jews from Egypt. It is just not scientific to call it that way as it is ambigious and could be viewed as POV. Also Bosnians do not refer to their evacuation as exodus and 2 million of them fled their homes.--Dado 17:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Actualy 1.8 million according to UN. Some early reports stated 2 million. That includes all Bosnians including Bosniaks. --Dado 20:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

It is not a matter of compromise but accuracy. You and I can agree to use the word in both instances but it may be offensive for Jewish people in a same way the word holocoust is often misused. --Dado 22:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[9] (see first two meanings). It is up to you if you want to use it but I still think it is misleading, ambigious and emotionally charged term that will potentially lead to edit wars.--Dado 22:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

See my comments on the talk page regarding the term ethnic cleansing. I said I will not remove it but someone else may.--Dado 22:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Ivan Gundulić

Mislim da ipak neću glasati u vezi Ivana Gundulića, jer je samo pitanje, da li je bio Srbin ili Hrvat i da li je govorio srpski ili hrvatski, pogrešno postavljeno. Stanovnici Dubrovnika iz tog vremena nazivali su sebe Dubrovčanima, a svoj jezik "slovinski", i sve što odstupa od ovakve definicije je suštinski pogrešno. PANONIAN (talk) 22:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

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From Macedonian

Hi there. I answered to your post on my talk page. I am sorry for the delay, I really have a bussy period so I am not able to visit Wikipedia every day. Take care, Macedonian^(talk) 02:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

POV

What is POV excatly? For what articles do u want me to help? Frankly dont know much about medivial age. Can u use ICQ or any other messengers now? Luka Jačov 21:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Ok, how to find u on IRC? Luka Jačov 21:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

U didnt anwser me yet what is pov Luka Jačov 21:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Prvi put da koristim IRC otišo sam na tools-join channel upiso wikipedia-hr i sam sam u sobi. imaš možda icq, skype ili msn lakše mi je s tim Luka Jačov 21:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, but y u didnt explain me how to find u? Luka Jačov 21:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

My nick is Lugjo, yours? i am in wikipedia-sr channel now but alone Luka Jačov 21:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Stefan Dragutin

Nedavno smo diskutovali o Stefanu Dragutinu, međutim nisam tada imao vremena da se time bavim, ali sada imam. Ovo mi je napisao tada anonimni korisnik na strani za razgovor (Da li si to bio ti?): "Ovdje piše da je Ugrin Čak imao vazalan status prema kralju Dragutinu. Postojao je i ban u Usori. Milutin je pripojio Soli, jer tu nije postojao više Ban." Ako si ti bio taj anonimni korisnik (koji je zaboravio da se uloguje), možeš li mi navesti izvor gde si to pročitao i citirati celu rečenicu o tome, da bih to ispravio u članku o Stefanu Dragutinu? PANONIAN (talk) 13:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

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Kontroverzne teme

Hehehe... Na sta mislis? Na RS, istoriju RS i sl.? To malo teze... Nije to moj fah. Mogu o jezicima i, po moranju, o knjizevnosti i knjizevnicima. A mogu i tamo gde se nazire da je moguce naci neko resenje. Licno ne mislim da ce se u dogledno o tim tamo temama resiti to. Drugim recima, makar koliko da sam zaludan, toliko nisam ;) Sto se tice Andrica, Boskovica i ostalih, mislim da se tu daju naci resenja. Evo, sada si poceo da bivstvujes na IRC-u, pa pricaj sa ljudima. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Pricaj sa Elephantusom na IRC-u. Sto se tice Dziva, poslao sam pitanje, pa cu ga dobiti (ne tako skoro). U svakom slucaju, moze se tvrditi da je bio Dubrovcanin (u "nacionalnom" smislu). Za neko vreme cu dobiti informacije o etnickom poreklu... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Podatke saznajem od jedne od tri najrelevantnije osobe u Srbiji za Dubrovacku knjizevnost. Za Andrica Elefantus tera inat ;) Cak je i Mir Harven potvrdio da se Andric izjasnio kao Srbin. Za Rudjera ti je poznato... Sto se tice ulica, treba to stavljati u "ostalo". Naravno, navesti u smislu: "Postoje ulice sa njegovim imenom u: Beogradu, Zagrebu, itd.". --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Pominjano je Ivino izjasnjavanje u Ujedinjenim nacijama, kao i njegovo tretiranje tamo; sto treba proveriti. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 10:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

about your request

I'm sorry but I don't think I know anything about the Republic of Dubrovnik. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 15:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

From Kosovar

Hello there. Well, I just wanted to let you know that I will definetely get back to you because I would like to continue our discussion. I also wanted to let you know that I wrote you a post with some personal feelings, so it was extremely frustrating when my post was lost. It was the first time this happened to me with Wikipedia, I got a message saying something along the lines of "Our servers are being updated -- your post was not saved", and then when I went back in my browser the text disappeared.

Anyhow, please bare with me and I will get in touch sooner rather than later. Kosovar 00:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

History of BiH

Holy, I have not claimed that DAI is false but controversial. I am not an expert in the subject but even I can see that the DAI has some serious issues. In fact the article on DIA speaks about the controversy as well. I have an issue with the map and I don't understand how you are not seeing the reasons why is this map being pushed. If there was a similar map created by a credible source and not the user (whose edits are also not the most neutral material you can see on the Wikipedia) than we may be able to talk about the issue --Dado 04:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

"Compromise"?

I don't remember ever agreeing to this compromise of yours. And the discussion on the king of Serbs was never "resolved". Nikola merely ignored the evidence. Now please stop flooding my talk page. Asim Led 21:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

File:Srbi u Jugoslaviji.jpg

Hi, please add a copyright tag with source to this map. Thuresson 14:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

3RR

When someone violates the WP:3RR, you should report him at WP:AN/3RR. Izehar (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure he violated the 3RR - I can't find a violation. Izehar (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You could ask to have the page protected. If you can find a reason in the Wikipedia:Protection policy why the article should be proected, then post a request on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and they will protect it. If there is a revert war going on, then they will temporarily protect it. Izehar (talk) 18:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, but you may be able to get him to agree to something while the page is protected. When a page is protected, the disputants can do nothing much except talk. Remember, try to compromise. Izehar (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Well why don't you fix the article? Who knows, he may see the light or he may even agree to it. In the meantime, ask for protection after you've fixed it in case he objects ;-) Izehar (talk) 18:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Your articles

To be honest I dont think your articles are encyclopedic according to style they were written. Your work is more like u write an essay and not encylopedic. My advice: u should start article with the name of the article like: Jovan Vladimir (DOB-DOD) was Serbian...

And also Duklja and Zeta arent articles u started although u have mentioned me that. I would also like your POV of my articles. I hope I wasnt to harsh :). Luka Jačov 20:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

So if they are copy-edits they arent really articles of yours;)? U really should deal with them quickly. I also see u have edited Lika. Very good, I just wouldnt call the historical era industrial cos u deal also with pre-industrial age. Which article from me do u find most interesting? Luka Jačov 22:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Lika itself in early mediaval was special area controlled by Ban and toponym Srb is mentioned already in IX. century which proves Serb presence in the area much before Ottoman emigrations. I will re-check this information this week and edit it.

Lastovo is also my favorite, unlike Molise Slavic dialect it is article entirely edited by me. I visited Mundimitar in 2004 and I will defently visit Lastovo this summer (2006 Luka Jačov 23:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Ako imaš neke informacije o Lastovo zaš' ne bi dodao i da htio bih vidjet izvor. Samo me zanima dal se informacija da se Lastovo slobodo priključilo Dubrovniku kosi s činjenicom da je to odlučio Stefan Uroš ili je Stefan Uroš samo dao blagoslov odluci otočana da se priključi Dubrovniku? Luka Jačov 10:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I dont plan to do it very soon. I dont c what is the problem? If it is 2 long just click + instead of edit. Luka Jačov 20:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Stvarno ne kužim u čemu je problem, pa talk page može bit beskonačno velika. Ako je neki problem možeš napisati na moj userpage. Luka Jačov 21:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

What your internet is to slow to open edit page? U said u have icq? u use it now? Y Uroš wanted Dubrovnik's forgivenes when he won Dubrovnik? I suppose he could even occupied it if he wanted. U also said u will give me the source. Luka Jačov 21:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont wanna be pain in da ass but u didnt anwser all my questions. Luka Jačov 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

What do u mean talk page is too slow? Why dont u edit that information about Lastovo? Luka Jačov 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

When will u edit Lastovo? Luka Jačov 21:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

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I answered your questions on my page.--Epirus 05:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Welcoming

Hello, please welcome users on their talk page (i.e. User_talk:Ugen64), not their user page (User:Ugen64). Thank you, – ugen64 20:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

In a slight relation to this topic, I moved a comment you left recently on a user's main page to their talk page. I've done that several times in the past as well. :) --Syrthiss 13:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

You may want to have a look at this website [10] - it has the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in many languages. Izehar (talk) 12:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

He certainly did :) Dobar Dan Holy Roman Emperore! :)

Svetlana Miljkovic 12:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Za sad sam OK, ali cu Vas (te) uzeti za rech, pa kad mi bude trebala pomoc ili imam milion pitanja, znam koga da gnjavim :)

Svetlana Miljkovic 13:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You wrote to me...

Sorry. I looked at your contributions on talk pages and concluded that you're too biased for an impartial discussion on Boskovic or Gundulic. --Zmaj 20:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Da ne slazes krivu gdje je nema

Upravo ja sam arhivirao user-talkovi Zmaja i Elephantusa. --VKokielov 02:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Okreni paznju da su ti glavni neprijatelji uvijek Hrvati i Bosnjaci. --VKokielov 02:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Userpage

I really like your new userpage - it sums up about everything I believe in. Izehar (talk) 17:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

vandalism unit

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit (it's linked from the actual box on my page, lol) ;)

{{user CVU1-en}} is the template though you can have {{user CVU2-en}} instead which does the same thing just looks slightly different :)

It's definitely not "mine" its just a wikipedia thing in general, I only joined yesterday myself. and of course no problems with borrowing/copying anything from my page :)--Mistress Selina Kyle 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Archived

Done - if you need it doing again, please tell me. Izehar (talk) 18:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

vandalism unit

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit (it's linked from the actual box on my page, lol) ;)

{{user CVU1-en}} is the template though you can have {{user CVU2-en}} instead which does the same thing just looks slightly different :)

It's definitely not "mine" its just a wikipedia thing in general, I only joined yesterday myself. and of course no problems with borrowing/copying anything from my page :)--Mistress Selina Kyle 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

grr, you moved my reply just after I had made it Izehar.. --Mistress Selina Kyle 18:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Dragutin

"Knjiga Kotromanići vol. II je izvor za ono o Dragutinu. Pogledaću ko je napisao..."

Ok, samo bih te zamolio da mi citiraš rečenicu iz te knjige gde piše da je Ugrin Čak bio Dragutinov vazal, ako ti nije problem. Nemam sad vremena da idem da tražim tu knjigu u biblioteci, a ako je ti imaš pri ruci, mogao bi mi napisati citat o tome. PANONIAN (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

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Serbophobia

I think that everybody should express his or her own opinion without the consent of another person. I wouldn’t mind even if you voted “strong keep”. But, I believe that the only way for the article Serbophobia to remain in Wikipedia is to say this:

“Serbophobia is how Serbian dictators have named the movements of invaded people for freedom and democracy. It is a racist point of view of those who have been leaders of the Serbian state, trying to apply the expansionist project 'Nacertanija', which envisages the occupation of Albanian lands down to Shkumbin river."

However, it is better not to write about Serbophobia, because it something ridiculous that denigrates the values of wikipedia.--Albanian since Stone Age 19:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Albanians

I have already changed my user page. Now I located Prishtina in Kosova, and I feel like Kosova will become an independent state soon. This should hurt anyone because it is not an nationalist vision, but a compromise for the Albanians and the Serbs living together in one country. But, it is also fair to believe that Kosova should belong in Albania because of the history and the ethnic Albanian majority there. I thank you too for being nice.--Albanian since Stone Age 07:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you think about the article I recenlty published? It is about the Albanian exodus.--Albanian since Stone Age 07:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

HolyRomanEmperor, I didn't have time to contribute in Wikipedia last 3-4 days. I read your article about Duklja. It is a good iniciative in general, to add information about former Balkan states. However, I think that would look better if you call Dioclea a medieval state ruled by a Serbian (or Slavic) dynasty. The population was heterogenous.

I'm also having problems signing in and using my wikipedia account. I may open another one, perhaps!--Getoar

Srb

I found information long time ago but I re-searched intrenet: http://members.tripod.com/cafehome/arhiviII.htm Luka Jačov 21:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say "Serbian nationalist tendencies"? Won't write it, have no time for more edit wars... Nikola 06:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Alija Izetbegovic and Young Muslims

Hi there,

In the Alija Izetbegović article you added:

As such, while it was not officially pro-fascist in orientation, the Young Muslims generally supported the Nazi/Ustaše efforts.

I heard this claim before and looked into it, and it appears that others have too (see talk page of the Izetbegović article). As far as I can see, this claim is inaccurate. This claim has been added and removed quite a few times before, with one side stating it is fact and the other calling it 'Serb propaganda'. I think this statement is best left out unless accompanied with a strong reference, otherwise it will keep going edit, revert, edit, revert and not really helping anything.

If you have found some new evidence then please detail it in the talk page so it can be assessed and we can reach a consensus. It is better for the Wikipedia community if we reach a consensus instead of bickering, plus we can avoid the article having a POV notice added to it again. If we can't reach a consensus, it's better to leave controversial statements to the talk page IMHO.

Just my two cents, no offence intended at all and I'm not taking sides here. -- Buyoof 15:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, OK. I know that there were numerious SS Balias that were produced to fight for the Independent State of Croatia. I'll look for sources... -- HolyRomanEmperor 15:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That is correct. However, the Muslims that joined the SS division did so of their own accord, and did so against the (anti-nationalist, pro-Ummah) teachings of the Young Muslims. It is therefore unfair to associate Young Muslims with the Nazis/Ustaša as they did not encourage Muslims to join such nationalist movements. -- Buyoof 15:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Correct. But they previously were; so it deserves a mention (but a re-phrasing) No? HolyRomanEmperor 15:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe there is some confusion over terminology here. By Muslims I meant the Wikipedia definition of Muslim, not members of the Young Muslims movement. It is true, as you say, that some members of the Muslim faith went against their religion in joining the SS. However this does not include members of the Young Muslims movement -- regarded as "radical" in those days -- which advocated the idea of Ummah and that nationalism was an evil.

The fact that some Bosnian Muslims joined these SS divisions does deserve a mention, but probably in an article about Bosniaks rather than the Alija Izetbegović article, since those Muslims that did so would not have been members of the Young Muslims movement.

So basically what I am saying is; it is inaccurate to say that the Young Muslims supported Nazis/Ustaša because, while other members of the Muslim faith may have done so, the Young Muslims and it's members did not. -- Buyoof 16:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

My apologies for the improper re-insertion of the data. :( HolyRomanEmperor 16:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem at all. I learnt a great deal about the history as a result of this, so it was worth it. All the best :) -- Buyoof 16:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Headlines

Holy, I know you're a talkative guy (your comments are on everyone's talk pages), but I'd just like to turn your attention to the existence of small [+] tab on every article – if you intend to start a brand new topic about something, it's preferred to assign a new headline/heading to it. Currently, it's difficult to follow whether you're replying to someone or starting entirely new stuff. Keep up on good job & regards. Duja 16:38, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm afraid I probably shouldn't vote yet (as I'm a friend), I'll vote later. Do not advertise the fact that you are requesting adminship - the people who regularly vote on these things don't like it. Good Luck anyway. Izehar (talk) 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Tell me, now that you are a member of the CVU, you should check out WP:US. There are some very helpful tools there. Izehar (talk) 17:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Duklja, administrator

Evo, podržao sam te za administratora. Što se tiče Duklje, Saša nije dobro razumeo, nisam rekao da mi se ne sviđaju tvoje izmene u tom članku. Kad smo pričali na ircu, Saša mi je samo rekao da si ti napisao taj članak, a ja sam rekao da si ga ti samo dopunio, jer članak postoji odavno. Dakle, izmene su ok. Nego, primetio sam da postoje dva članka o drugom srpskom ustanku, pa ako imaš vremena i ako te to zanima, možda bi mogao da ih spojiš u jedan, a da od onog drugog napraviš redirekt. Ja nemam sada vremena da to uradim. PANONIAN (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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:)

Nadam se da nisi ovo: I think this user is a hard-line Serb nationalist Emir Arven.

Svetlana Miljkovic 20:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Popitaj Emira Arvena sama. --VKokielov 23:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding your Request for Adminship

I have removed your RfA early. I took this action because the amount of oppose votes (15 at the time of the RfA's closing) as compared to the amount of support votes (8 at the time of the RfA's closing) was high enough that a consensus could not be reasonably expected to be reached by the posted RfA deadline. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 05:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Ostrvo Šolta

Nije nikakav problem da se i ovo ostrvo uključi u Paganiju, ali ne znam da li je to tačno. Na mapi iz mog istorijskog atlasa koji sam koristio kao uzor za ovu mapu, ostrvo Šolta je nacrtano kao vizantijski posed. Dakle, sporno je da li je pripadalo Paganiji. Istraži to malo bolje ako želiš, pa ako budeš siguran da je pripadalo Paganiji, a ne Vizantiji, lako ćemo ispraviti mapu. PANONIAN (talk) 21:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

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U redu, ionako sam nameravao da tu sliku ovih dana zamenim sa png verzijom, pa ću dodati Paganiji i ostrvo Šolta. PANONIAN (talk) 13:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

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Evo prepravio sam obe mape:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Principalities02.png
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serb_lands04.png

Ok sada? PANONIAN (talk) 16:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

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Izehar's RfA

Hi HolyRomanEmperor,

I would like to thank you for your kind support on my RfA. I'll do my best to be a good administrator. If you need anything or if I ever do something I shouldn't have, please, don't hesitate to drop me a line. Izehar 16:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Matej Ninoslav

It looks really fine, made though a minor correction to the article but really only a minor. Yes that's true I am kind of intressted in medieval Bosnia, good work. But if you don't mind I will inform other users about the article as well if I may? Damir Mišić

You did not understand :), ok guess that happens sometimes too. Sta sam pokuso da kazem je da sam malo drukčije napiso o crkvi bosanskoj u clanki "Matej Ninoslav". Damir Mišić 13:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Serbian state from the 1300th century

I won't state that I am well familiar with serbian history during medieval times but Serbia was not a state with everything that includes it by other words a central statepower, a common ruler over all serbian lands, money common for all serb inhabited areas. Believe it or not but Bosnia is the oldest country with statehood among croatia and serbia, and serbia is the oldest establishing their statehood somewhere in the 1300th 1200th century I am not sure but somwhere around there. Before the serbian statehood serb lands like rascia and so existed which are not suppose to be counted as states. Damir Mišić 13:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Thanks :) and to you HolyRomanEmperor! And best wishes for the New Year - gonna be a good one, I can tell ;) -- sannse (talk) 15:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the tips, but I will have to controll what you have done to the article "list of rulers in bosnia". Let me put it like this much happend within a short period :) Damir Mišić

Control if I agree and if the article is accurate, nothing more than that. Damir Mišić 12:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Lika

Probably soon. Have u checked my newest article? Luka Jačov 18:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Pogledo sam i vidi se napredak s obzirom na prijašnje članke. No u vezi Ljudevit dal si siguran dal se ta kneževina zvala Panonia? Znam također da je digao ustanak sa Timočanima. Dal su to Srbi nad kojima je vladao? Kako se tebi sviđa SDK? Nemoj mi zamjerit što nisam glaso za administratora. Mislio sam da bi ti tehničke teškoče koje si mi prije spomenuo otežavale posao. Luka Jačov 19:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Tko su bili Guduščani? Nisi komentiro SDK. Inače kandidiro sam Lastovo za Featured article. Luka Jačov 23:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)