This is an archive of past discussions with User:Orangemarlin. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I am proposing deletion of the entire set of articles on Neurolinguistic programming. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neuro-linguistic programming. NLP is an extraordinary pseudoscience that is so successful at disguising itself as real science that it had many people fooled for a long time. I'm amazed this has gone on for so long but enough is enough. I would appreciate any help on this as there is bound to be a bitter fight - there are a number of commercial interests involved and there is evidence of some inside support in Wikipedia itself. I have a separate file of information if you are interested, but for obvious reasons that cannot go on-wiki. Best. Peter Damian (talk) 10:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Anti-science Wiki's
Apparently, the anti-science, bad medicine fuckwads decided that Wikipedia stands firm on NPOV, with the need for reliable sources to verify what's written. So the fringe theory bullshit artists decided that they need their own wiki. Luckily, these fringe-pushing wikis don't show up on Google. They can team up with the Creation-wiki's, and sell their anti-science, anti-intellectual bullshit to anyone who accidentally runs into their rants. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions22:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, I wish them luck. The right to fork off a new project with more congenial policies is one of the few that contributors have here (despite the rampant belief that the full Bill of Rights applies). We should probably just commend people who go there instead of trying to force poorly sourced or fringe material here. These wikis actually make Wikipedia a better place, because they skim off a hard core of determined agenda-driven POV-pushers. Conservapedia is the best thing ever to happen to Wikipedia, for that very reason.
One of our most poisonous AIDS-denialist POV pushers has pretty much disappeared, as he's set up an "AIDSwiki" to promote the view that HIV is harmless and AIDS a fiction. Like Conservapedia, the "AIDSwiki" covers many of the same topics as Wikipedia, but from a Bizarro-mirror perspective. The only downside is that he's taken pains to make it look legit, and the "AIDSwiki" title might mislead someone into thinking as much, at least until they got hip-deep in lunacy. MastCellTalk00:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I was very pleased to see that Parapsychology, today's featured article, has a lead which looks very NPOV to me, and that Psychokinesis, which it links to, also now has what I consider a NPOV lead. Although I was somewhat irked when you reverted my edit at Psychokinesis, when I thought it over afterwards I realized that in general I appreciate what you're doing. I'm under the impression (sorry if I have this wrong) that you watch a large number of articles and do a lot of rapid reverts of edits that promote fringe POVs. While I saw my edit as bringing the article into the realm of NPOV rather than as promoting a fringe view, at least one other editor didn't see it that way, so possibly there's more than one way of interpreting the sentence. Thinking it over, I realized that it would be far worse, both for users and for Wikipedia's reputation, for an article to err on the side of implying that psychokinesis really exists, than to err on the side of exaggerating the strength of wording with which scientists reject it, though it's still best to get NPOV just right. Therefore, I'd like to thank you for keeping a watchful eye over such articles.
By the way, in case you didn't see it, here's a link to my reply to you at Antelan's talk page. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I think I'll continue my conversation with you here, since it appears that Antelan has cleaned up his page. Honestly, the only time I see kb's and kb's of discussion (arguing probably is a better word) about NPOV is when the POV pushing crowd gets going. I think NPOV is clear. If it's verifiable (and I don't mean some dumb-ass theory that is published in some obscure journal), then it should be included. What the POV-pushing crowd attempts is that if there is some verifiability, they think it deserves equal weight. Frankly, fringe theories are easily picked out using the rules at Pseudoscience. Minority views are usually published. Remember, I'm only talking about medical and science articles. When I edit history or sociological articles, I don't note much controversy about what is NPOV, but then again, maybe I just don't pay attention. Once again, I think you allow way too much room for the fringe thinking. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions00:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I think we both agree that fringe (tiny-minority) views don't belong in Wikipedia articles, (except describing them, without weight, in articles about themselves). We may have different opinions sometimes about which things count as "tiny-minority" views. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Orthomolecular
Hi there. I've been trying to find a form of words that might cover the same ground as that pseudoscience box and be acceptable to everybody involved. I think most of the editors on the page would agree that OM isn't as unreal as homeopathy or therapeutic touch, but is obviously seen as not mainstream science. Could you live with "This lack of serious testing of orthomolecular medicine has led to its practices being classed with other less plausible forms of alternative medicine and regarded as unscientific."diff? Tim Vickers (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
See my message on FT2's talk page and suggesting of mediation process. I think there are some important lessons to be learned from recent incidents, and would value your input. Let me know on my talk page. See also the points I discussed with Guy. Peter Damian (talk) 06:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I've left a note on the NLP talk page describing the problem of identifying reliable sources for possible pseudoscience. Any help appreciated. Peter Damian (talk) 15:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Best laugh today....
If you've learned nothing, you've learned that my talkpage is ridiculously "over-watchlisted". Keeps me in line. Keeps me from saying "fuck" too often. Someone else created a admin noticeboard that redirects to my talkpage. Go figure. I'm seriously nothing special, I'm not sure how that happened (I'm certainly not a respected encylopedia builder by any stretch). Anywho, my offer stands. If you need some arbitrary "admin" action performed, let me know. I'll do it with little fanfare, and likely immediately. I don't edit weekends, only weekdays (basically 9-5 US central time). As for blocking me, I'm literally and apparently untouchable. Good luck with that :-).... Keeperǀ7601:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, there's a certain ArbCom member that you could summarily indef block for me. LOL. Otherwise, I'm more interested in clean up stuff right now. I'll put you on my speed dial...errrr...speed typing list. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions03:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I saw the discussion on jpgordon's talk page. Look, no one would expect you to be best friends with FT2 after what happened. Venting is understandable, and my ear is available on- or off-wiki if you'd like. But pursuing a vendetta, or giving the appearance of pursuing a vendetta, is a bad idea for a million reasons. The most important is that time spent trying to get even with FT2 is time you will never get back. It's not worth it. Whatever your feelings about the NLP articles, they certainly do not represent the worst or most potentially harmful crap on Wikipedia. It's just cruft, and now that it's been spotlighted it will be handled appropriately by Someone Else. The amount of Crap That Needs To Be Fixed on Wikipedia is unmanageable. I'm trying to better triage it - help me figure out what parts of the encyclopedia are actively misinforming people in a potentially harmful way, and let's fix those. Don't let yourself be defined by FT2's error of judgement. MastCellTalk06:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Why do tell him it isn't worth it? Perhaps it might be time well spent. I see no point in chasing down difficult to find references in order accurately to source a certain scientific view when this sort of systematic abuse is going on around us. Enough is enough. Peter Damian (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, very good advice to keep in mind for whenever - particularly the last sentence and the third last sentence (which a lot people, including myself, maybe a gazillion times a year either forget or don't give enough weight to - we shouldn't as things would probably be a lot less stressful). In any case, take care - Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have no power to have a vendetta, so I'm just venting in the funniest way possible. What irks me is the lack of apology from him, which really offends my sense of honor. I'll get over it in a while, and I certainly don't spend more than 2 seconds even thinking about it. And I try not to think about how much needs to be cleaned up around here. I have run across too many FA's that are in such poor condition, it may take years just getting them into shape. Anyways, allow me my laughs about the whole ArbCom situation. I deserve to make funny comments about it. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions14:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I know you asked me for help on the Alzheimer's article awhile back, but it just slipped my mind. Seems to happen more and more these days. :) On House, dementia is always due to a rare and treatable cause, though it usually takes 53 minutes of false starts and a near-death experience to diagnose the specifics. Anyhow, I think the article looks OK, except that the lead needs to mention the eggcorn "Oldtimer's Disease" :P MastCellTalk22:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes Una...errrrrr....MastCell. I love watching House, especially his treatment of Fellows (at least I assume they're fellows and not residents). Many years ago, I was observing an Angioplasty being performed by a third year Cardiology Fellow at a very fine teaching university hospital. We were testing a new catheter that delivered heparin directly to the stenosis, in the hope of reducing restenosis. The hub of the catheter was molded in clear plastic, so you could tell if there's an air bubble in the hub--delivering an air bubble to a coronary artery has some unfortunate consequences. Well, the Fellow forgot to check for bubbles, I saw it (I had no standing in the cath lab, I was in charge of clinical trials for the company), and I screamed out, "stop." Both the attending and interventionalist knew exactly what was wrong, and they jumped all over the Fellow. He was terminated from the program the next day. That's the real world. The Fellow ended up being a Cardiologist (not an interventionalist), and he hates me to this day. I hope he takes more care in reading his ultrasounds. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions22:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
You're game. I could think of a few stories but I'd worry about confidentiality (tricky in my line of work..), what with me as a pillar of the community 'n'all... Cheers, Casliber (talk·contribs) 00:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, he should be grateful to you. There are few fates worse than ending up a non-interventional cardiologist, but living with having killed a patient on the cath table would be one of them. Actually, the attending owes you a huge debt too - I know a lot of attending interventionalists like to sit in the control room, drink coffee, talk about their yachts, and hit on the cath lab nurses, but they're technically supposed to supervise their fellows and notice little things like potentially fatal air bubbles. MastCellTalk00:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
They were trying to score a multi-million dollar clinical trial from my company. Which would allow them to buy a yacht and hit on the nurses. :) Anyways, we were all in scrubs with leads. So everyone was doing their thing, but I wasn't hot on a Fellow doing the first ever human trial of the catheter. But he was whining to do it, and well, sometimes bad things happen.OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions
Er, this is not about vendettas, or personal issues of any kind. It's about systematic abuse of admin privileges against pro-science and expert editors. Wake up.
[edit] See my email. I have a very serious problem with users who get banned for 2 years simply for making remarks like this. Peter Damian (talk) 17:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I created a separate section here, mainly because the previous section really is more humor than anything. NLP is a pseudoscience, but as MastCell has said above, it is not the worst thing running around this place. I have my opinions about FT2 that have nothing to do with NLP directly. I've been asked to disengage from NLP and FT2, which I must do, because it just makes me angry. I will, of course, support creating a more NPOV article surrounding NLP, but i cannot let my personal feelings about FT2 corrupt good editing. As a recommendation Peter, maybe you should do the same thing. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions18:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
As I said, I have no personal feelings about this. But something has to be done about the systematic problem we have here. You don't accept there is a systematic problem? What's the point in chipping away at the little things bit by bit when the source of the problem lies elsewhere? I don't give up that easily. Peter Damian (talk) 18:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] And have you in fact been asked to disengage from this? Your remark on my talk page was extreme, and touched by anger, and I think you should disengage from the anger (I have a similar problem, but I manage). But please dont' disengage from the important issues. Peter Damian (talk) 18:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
If "something has to be done", poorly supported accusations about actions being "systematic" put on a user talk page fail the assume good faith test and aren't a good start. It appears to me that it wasn't a case of "users who get banned for 2 years simply for making remarks like this", rather an extended block in December 2006 of a self-professed open proxy used by a former editor. There may be an issue to be taken up, but that example sure doesn't look like it, and I don't think this talk page is a good place to start. . . dave souza, talk19:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
There it is again. Any attempt to question systematic and in-principle abuse at the highest levels of the encyclopedia = personal attack, vendetta, assumption of bad faith. You couldn't make this up. Go on then block me someone. As I say, it's not a personal issue and never has been. It's stuff like the absurd remark just above. Peter Damian (talk) 19:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The 'former editor' was a very good one whose diffs I frequently use as reference sources. I have a fundamental problem with why people like that are banned from this project. Peter Damian (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Sundowning (dementia), and it appears to be a substantial copy of http://www.alzla.org/dementia/sundowning.html. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.
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This is an automated message. You may think our bots are demented, but copyvios must be exterminated. EXTERMINATE!!!!!!! ... dave souza, talk19:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have drafted a new proposal and would like help in clarifying, adjusting, adapting, and improving it. It is based on five years of work here at Wikipedia (not always the prettiest, I might add). I think it summarizes the opinions of a great majority of editors as to how to handle scientific situations. This proposal serves as a nexus between WP:NPOV and WP:RS for cases where we are dealing with observable reality. It is needed because there are a lot of editors who don't seem to understand what entails best-practices when writing a reliable reference work about observable reality. I don't pretend that this version is perfect, and would appreciate any and all additions, suggestions people may have for getting to some well-regarded scientific standards.
Note that these standards would apply only when discussing matters directly related to observable reality. These standards are inspired in part by WP:SPOV but avoid some of the major pitfalls of that particular proposal. In particular, the idea that SPOV even exists is a real problem. However, I think it is undeniable that we should have some standards for writing about scientific topics.
See also WP:SCI for another failed proposal that dovetails with this one. I hope this particular proposal is more in-line with the hole I see in policy/guidelines for dealing with these situations.
is always fun. Good grief, a doublewide no less. I keep thinking there is a Redneck joke hidden here somewhere, but I cannot figure it out. KillerChihuahua?!?00:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The doublewide nearly made me wet myself. I was going to do an RfD for notability, but they deserve their 15kb of fame on the internet. You know how many people watch my contributions? Well, this could be more fun than shooting possums in a barrel. Or something like that. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions00:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Come to Kentucky and see a true Redneck institution: the Creation Museum! It's only 20 minutes from where I currently live -- in Ohio, and it's chock full of wholesome goodness that you and your family would certainly enjoy. Please come and use the lavish bathrooms at the facility, and take in the wonderful landscaped grounds and surface lot. Don't dare enter in the museum. seicer | talk | contribs00:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
While your intent to punish the museum by stoning it is in line with a literal reading of the Old Testament, you ought to consider it differently. Think about the fact that the Creation Museum raised $27 million in donations to open its doors. Then consider the other possible uses to which that $27 million in soft money might have been put. The math isn't complicated: the Creation Museum makes the country a better place. What harm are a few badass dinosaur exhibits? MastCellTalk07:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, maybe teaching American kids science would be a healthy start. Oh, you're being sarcastic. I see. So, you're saying that you and I could just create (get it) a museum that shows dinosaurs frolicking with Adam and Eve, and we could be $27 million richer? Well MC maybe we could start a Museum of Alternative Medicine. It would actually be cheaper than the robotic dinosaurs, because we could just put up bottles of water and say they do whatever we want them to do. Cut up a few random plants. Are you with me? OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions09:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I may be wrong, but I was thinking that the $27 million would otherwise have been spent on influencing school board elections, judgeships, anti-stem-cell-research initiatives, or keeping friendly tabs on the neighborhood abortion provider. Given some of the possible alternatives, the museum seems like a harmless use of literalists' disposable income. MastCellTalk23:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The models were very realistic and the displays were very well constructed. It's a nice walk through to see that, but feel free to ignore the remainder of the nonsense. seicer | talk | contribs13:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
What, you didn't like the pterodactyls? I was sure that was the most interesting part. Anyone can set up a trailer, even if it is temporary, since 1993. Far fewer people go to New Guinea to hunt pterodactyls... --GRuban (talk) 18:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Pardon me butting in again, but this made me think of an old Euell Gibbons commercial for Grape Nuts, that started out something like "Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts are edible..." (No doubt I'm showing my age here.) Carry on....you guys are very funny.Woonpton (talk) 01:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I thought all chickens were killed by beheading these days. WTHeck do they do? Do I want to know? No, I don't want to know, disregard the query. I am almost certainly happier not knowing. But in the chicken packaging plants near where I grew up, they beheaded. KillerChihuahua?!?17:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh, they're still killed by beheading. The problem is that KFC then catches the chicken's blood in a bowl and devotes it as an offering to Baal. Otherwise their chicken would be kosher. MastCellTalk21:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
There's no kashrut supervision and general beheading doesn't quite do it. But I'm not going to play the straight man by going into details. Anyways, they are actually pretty squicky. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
How did this talk page become Wikipedia's version of the stand-up comedian try-out stage? Which reminds me. A Rabbi, Creationist, and Agnostic went into a bar. Best punchline gets a beer. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions01:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
The Rabbi, Creationist, and Agnostic each order drinks. And wait. And wait. And wait. The Rabbi says: "Why does this slow service always happen to us?" The Creationist says: "It took God two days to separate the Earth from the water - I can wait a bit longer." The Agnostic says: "Maybe I don't want a drink after all?" --GRuban (talk) 20:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no problem. Just a little flooding. There were horrible problems elsewhere, a bus went into a river. But here we're just soggy, and a lot of us don't have power. KillerChihuahua?!?17:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
It has not been only me. It has been a great team work. Just for curiosity take a look at the article a year ago, when I began to edit it [2]. We have to be proud. What's next? In the first place I think it would be great if the FAC proccess is finished soon and we can ask Raul to put the article in the main page the 21 of september, which is the world alzheimer's day. It is hard to find a better day to appear in the main page. After that we'll see... :-) --Garrondo (talk) 07:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
There's an admin with a name like yours, and I'm forever confusing the two. For example, I'm not sure who you are. So you should be blocked because I can't remember. It simplifies my life, and this is about what I want. I rule!!!!!OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions19:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
← I am just a new user here, but it seems very unfair to me that MastCell was blocked. He seems like an excellent editor and administrator with many fine personal qualities, including striking good looks and kindness to animals. I also think you have violated several subsections and clauses of WP:BLOCK (although I have just started contributing, I have read Wikipedia anonymously for many years, so accusing me of being a WP:SOCK would violate WP:AGF). I hope you will reconsider your abusive block of MastCell before I have to open a WP:RFC/U or take it straight to WP:AN/I or WP:ARBCOM. Now I am off to read more about this wonderful site, because as I already mentioned, I am a brand-new user. Immature Basophil (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Boehiem is a genius. That said, I can't click on most of Seicer's links, corporately blocked. That tells me a whole lot about Seicer's "state of mind"....Keeperǀ7615:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The Democratic Party nominee to be Barak Obama's choice for VP. And, for those of you who watch this page and are absolutely clueless (that would be Keepr76 and MastCell, in no particular order), Senator Biden is a graduate of The Cuse. All further comments on this page must start with the statement, Boeheim is a genius. Oh, yeah, I know, Princeton, Yale and Harvard have more Presidents than I could count, but this is SU's first. I'm going to brag for a while. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions06:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Al Franken is THE man!!!! You know, I lived in Minneapolis for a year. I'm still thawing out (it was the early 90's and there was no global warming when I was there). I believe the snot in my nose froze solid one fine morning. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions08:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I interviewed at the Mayo Clinic for residency. The interview was in the middle of January. The shuttle ride from Minneapolis to Rochester was straight outta Fargo. I felt like my breath was freezing into ice crystals and tinkling to the ground, the way survivors of Kolyma described. I thought about cancelling the interview right then, but they put me up in a pretty sweet hotel, so I went through with it. Pretty amazing setup in terms of resources and facilities, but I just couldn't go through with it. MastCellTalk20:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I remember one morning it was -75 wind chill. I didn't think it was possible, there it was. I decided that going into the office was not possible, because California boys do not do -75 wind chill. And yes, when I saw Fargo, I nearly wet myself with laughter. I was living in Florida at the time, and my friends kept saying, "they don't really talk like that. Do they?" OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions00:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
A few items. First, Boehiem is a genius. Second, yes it does get below zero here. So what. We need something to complain about, seeing as our fine cities (Rochester included, MastCell), are chronically labelled as "best cities to live and raise a family" by national rags. As far as "hot" weather vs "cold" weather, give me cold any time. I can always add another layer of parka. I can only remove so many layers prior to arrest. Third, yeah, we doo talk like dat, ya now? The film Fargo was filmed almost entirely in Minnesota, not Fargo (a couple of flyover shots of "downtown" fargo, grain silos and all, maybe a bar scene) Fourth, I know that shuttle MPLS -> Rochester. Mysterious really how some Minnesotans manage to even get themselves dressed, let alone arrive at a shuttle on time. And finally, Al Franken. I have to be really honest here, as someone that is barraged with his TV ads. He needs a new campaign manager. They are horrible, filled with logical fallacies and half-truths. He really is a bit of a nutcase, but we seem to like to !vote, er I mean vote, for the celebrities. Sigh. There were several, far superior candidates in the primaries. Keeperǀ7615:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the people on the Minneapolis-Rochester shuttle were odd in any way - in fact, they were quite nice, and most were from out of town going to the Mayo Clinic for a referral. I just meant that the long, flat, snow-covered expanse between the two cities reminded me of the opening scene in Fargo. FWIW, some of my best friends are Minnesotans (OK, that actually makes it sound worse). Rochester does consistently rank on the best-places-to-live, as the Mayo Clinic was quick to point out. They also gave me a helpful chart showing that their proposed salary of ~$30,000/year in Rochester was equivalent to making, like, $80,000 in Boston or San Francisco because of the low cost of living. Really, what concerned me was the remoteness combined with some of the offhand remarks from the residents I met about the constrained social scene and the difficulty of meeting or interacting with people who didn't work at the Clinic/St. Mary's. MastCellTalk17:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
←First, I appreciate your sticking with rules. Boeheim (let's get the spelling right) is a genius. Second, it's not the below zero, it's the fucking wind chill. If I want glaciers and tundra, I'd visit Greenland. I couldn't get enough layers to stay warm. But the upside is that I could gain weight, and no one would notice. I don't like heat either. Give me Santa Barbara, California, which has a pleasant 72 daytime temp and 55 evening temp, nearly year around. Third, we love the accent. And Grumpy Old Men was also filmed there. Fourth, don't know much about the shuttle. I would have done a residency at Mayo, but I chose the real Rochester. Fifth, a campaigned filled with logical fallacies and half-truths? That's unusual? Al Franken has written several books on how much the Republicans have lied. Oh, wait, this is about Minnesota. I'll invent a sixth. You have the worst restaurants in the world. I think spice for Minnesotans is another dash of pepper. :) OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions16:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
LOL! Bow-hime is a genius. The LOL is for the spice comment, which is so sadly true that it brought tears to my eyes. My brother, for his favorite meal, orders a hamburger. No cheese, no ketchup, no mustard. Meat. Bun. As for Franken, sigh. I like the guy. And not just when he was staring in a mirror telling himself that he was good enough. I've read his Lying Liars book, the Limbaugh classic, enjoyed them both. I also know how bad TV-campaign commercials are, on both sides. I generally gloss over. But his are so glaringly wrongheaded - it's hard to explain, and I can't ever really explain things that are easy to explain, so my chances of success here are slim. He's killing himself slowly with the voters here. His ads are stereotypes of ads that he's seen before. They don't work. There are actually a few of them that I think are actually Coleman ads, until the very end, when they say "I'm al franken and I approve this message". I've asked myself "why the F would you approve that message??? They're just bad. Not that Al's bad, but his marketing manager/campaign manager, whatever, needs to start over. This morning, by the way, was a lovely 51 degrees F outside. Crisp and sunny. I took the top down on my convertible on the way in. Keeperǀ7616:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Mooonnesota? What are we doing there? They get something approximating winter (although at least you don't have to shovel the cold). Anyhow, I wouldn't know a rim-shot from a drum-roll, but if OM says so, Boeheim is a genius.LeadSongDog (talk) 18:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
They chose the most inopportune moment to go into a slump. They're not out of it, but they're not quite into it. I think Hanley Ramirez's thumb injury is the main reason. And yes, I hate the Mets. Well, not as much as I despise the Yankees. Of course. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions00:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
When I travelled the states I got a Marlins giant coffee mug an' a t-shirt - I had rels in Miami (though they were mets supporters)...an' I got a Chicago White Sox mug too....all these names mean nothing to me but they had pretty colours....Cheers, Casliber (talk·contribs) 03:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
White Sox? Pretty colors? They wear black/white! I have been to a pre-monochromatic game, back when they had red/white/blue (late 1980s I believe), maybe your old enough to have been travelling in the 80s? White Sox mugs are very useful otherwise, you know, for target practice. Keeperǀ7615:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Due to polio we only get three points. Only for one day (Polio was featured August 22). Even so I'm going to try. The worst thing that can happen is that it is rejected and as you say we could go for it next year. --Garrondo (talk) 07:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
21 september alzheimer's day
I have finally added the article to the list of articles. Lets find people to support it saying it gets between 3 and 5 points (Truly 3 but only because of 1 day). --Garrondo (talk) 13:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a general comment, in an edit summary on OM you said that "POV sources have no value", that isn't really right. POV sources are very valuable for showing what people believe, but as you probably meant, such sources cannot be used to make factual claims past supporting statements such as "Mr X has said Y" or "Organisation X believes Y". Tim Vickers (talk) 15:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
[3]. I'm not trying to start an argument with you, or disparage your right to your opinion and its expression, but I wanted to make the descriptions more explicit and also make it clear that Everyking wasn't way out in left field in comparison to the community on the diffs you provided. What I wonder about this RfA is whether there is something that the participants of arbcom-l know that many other people don't. It may be that they've just had bad experiences with him, particularly through his appeals (he was restricted from filing appeals on his own behalf, ultimately, as a vexatious litigant), but its concerning anyway. Out of curiosity, and for my own edification, how do you define "drama" and "creating drama" on Wikipedia? Avruch T 17:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry, I won't start an argument with you on this topic. But to answer your question, drama is just about anything on ANI, which I tend to avoid (but read, especially since some POV warriors use it to further their agenda). Drama is listing RfC's that don't have a point and last forever. Drama is tendentious arguments against the community will. Everyking is a drama queen. And has not been rehabilitated. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions17:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
What? Betwixt all your stalk-posts on my talkpage, etal, you managed to get something through FAC? I bow at your feet. Oh, and Boeheim is a genius. Congrats! :-) Keeperǀ7622:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Between being tortured during the Infamous Secret ArbCom Hearing and torturing various noobs, trolls, and RfA candidates, I actually help write an article or two. My rate of FA is a bit light (I have 2 in 2 years of working on this project for shit wages). I wish I got paid Admin salaries. I hear most of you are driving around in Ferraris. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions07:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I saw your post on Sandy's page. The main issue is that there are at least two, maybe three or four images too many. Since some are redundant in theme, you could remove them. Then, I would do some shuffling to more relevant sections (like move the reconstruction to the infobox.) If you want I'll do a test diff to show you what I mean. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Edit: I did it anyway (diff) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)23:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
If you could do it, I'd appreciate it. I was wondering if there were too many images, but I'm not much into them. The article was a mess, and I'm just trying to clean up a bit. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions23:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I think we have done a great job in the AD article. It is great not to be the only editor in an article, and the team formed in the AD article has worked really well. The multiple sclerosis article is one of the oldest FA of the medicine project and if it is not revised it will soon have a FAR (and fail it). I have decided to work on it from now on. It is not as interesting as taking an article to FA, but I have contributed a lot in the article (mostly the treatments section) and I have access to most important references. It would be great if you helped me. The causes, pathophisiology, epidemiology and prognosis sections are in a horrible state.--Garrondo (talk) 12:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
WR
It's my experience that those who edit on WR are extremely touchy and defensive about any direct or implied criticism of that site or their involvement in it. Best not to mention it at all unless absolutely unavoidable. Basil "Basil" Fawlty (talk) 12:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, in Dante's vision of hell, the lowest levels (in particular, the ninth circle) were already frozen over. Satan himself was waist-deep in ice. So you may as well get your admin bit transferred. MastCellTalk04:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, I didn't know that bit about the ice. Serves me right for trying to get cute. But returning to the general metaphor, no way in hell am I becoming an admin again. This place is just too nasty.
I can't help thinking that Wikipedia has passed the top of its arc and is going slowly but inexorably downhill. It's especially true of the dynamics of the Wikipedia community. One can point to many causes but I think the basic issue is that the important articles have already been written. What's left is cleanup and maintenance, keeping out the cruft and so on, which isn't nearly as much fun as creating original content for high-profile articles. And we all know that idle hands are the devil's tools (touching on that original metaphor again). With little fun, creative work to do, people turn to petty political intrigues -- or the "meta aspects of the project," as some prefer to call it. People complain about "drama" but the fact is that they love the drama. They love the bickering at ANI, the RFCs and RFARs, the sniping from a safe distance at WR, and so on. But that's not something I enjoy, and there are plenty of other things I do enjoy that better deserve my time and energy. Basil "Basil" Fawlty (talk) 02:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
It's not really the civil POV pushers who are the problem. They're annoying, but they can be dealt with. The problem is more in the nature of political intrigues and petty bullshit. Basil "Basil" Fawlty (talk) 04:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
(butting in...) Pardon my talk page stalking, bad habit I know. I absolutely agree with Ray. That's the core of it. People are addicted to the dramas, the conflicts, -- they're easy, they're fun, it's satisfying to see the villain of the day put in his place, and it's hard to do meaningful work on Wikipedia any more unless you are an expert in something not overrun with amateurs. (One of the reasons I'm still here. Most people don't give a rat's ass about Renaissance music, or most of the other things I write about.) In the almost five years I've been here we've evolved, and I'm not convinced that people are, as a whole, excited about improving the encyclopedia any more: it's become a big vandal-whacking and widget-making game, with a side dish of politics. Oh dear, I've trodden in Monsieur's bucket now, haven't I. There's still enjoyment to be had here, but ... Ray's right. Big issues. Antandrus (talk)05:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I seem to be the center of Wiki-drama sometimes. I hate drama. I just wish I could edit articles, tell dickwads to "fuck off" without retribution, and continue to edit articles. But to do that right, I have to watch over ANI's because someone will whine that I'm edit-warring, telling said dickwad to fuck off, or something else. Then I have to watch over the various guidelines like NPOV, RS, FRINGE, etc, because someone will try to change them so that they can slip into a medical article that camel urine will cure male pattern baldness. Then I have to watch RfA's to make sure anti-science POV admins aren't given tools to mess with the place. Then I have to deal with secret ArbCom hearings. And I'm doing this to get paid.....????? Oh, wait, I don't get paid. But hear admins do. But that may be a rumor. :) You know who I admire most in this place. User:SandyGeorgia. He or she puts up with POV bullshit from both sides, gets treated like shit when she (or is it a he? never sure) doesn't promote an FA. She reads over tons of very strange articles (some I couldn't read if they did pay me). Never gets a pat on the back when she does help get an article to FA? She gets into a war over trying to FAR a very poorly written article? And she has to deal with a couple of real dickwad medical editors who don't know crap, but but their noses into every article, usually not doing anything helpful. And she does this without becoming overtly uncivil (though said dickwad medical editors do get stomped on by her), without doing the wikidrama of "retiring" (how many editors retire, and come back with a sock....Ray Ray). She should get paid. Wait a minute. I'm ranting. It's Damn Basil's fault. Or Fawlt. Ehhhh. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions05:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) "the important articles have already been written." - ok, maybe in a broad sense of the word, but how many have been written....nah, now's the best time for the big boys to come out and play. I may have been bounced out for being too espteric 4 years ago methinks. Cheers, Casliber (talk·contribs) 05:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Occasional rants are OK, especially in the user talk space; I've concluded it's one of the best ways to stay sane here. Wikipedia is, after all, riddled with the same misbehavior common to all the human race, slightly magnified by the false courage given by anonymity, and it can be crazy-making to see it again, again, and again.
Have you noticed how wisdom and foolishness here seem to have little correlation with education and (claimed) credentials? I'm reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of education: "...that which reveals to the wise, and disguises from the foolish, their lack of understanding."
...and then there's my specialty, where the fun really starts..luckily, doing the biggies like schizophrenia and now Major depressive disorder, there's a bunch of sensible folk milling around so we can keep it on the straight and narrow...an this is one of the best uses of FAC as it is an instant badge of a stable version that even uninvolved folks can recognise as an article not to be mussed up (well, most of the time..) Cheers, Casliber (talk·contribs) 23:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm just impressed that a psychiatrist is willing to brave Wikipedia. Based on what I've read here, you guys have cloven hooves and a forked tail, which must make it difficult to sit and edit for long periods of time. I guess what I'm saying is that anti-psychiatry viewpoints may have just the teeniest amount of undue weight on Wikipedia... MastCellTalk18:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey O.M! Haven't been on here in a while. How's it been going? You're not a bone specialist, but I was hoping that your medical expertise might come in handy.
On Thursday night, I was coming into my dorm and jumped down a flight of stairs, but I slipped and landed on my arm instead of my feet (the physicist in me wants to point out that the impact delivered approximately 1.190 kJ of energy, since my mass is 81 kg and I fell from a y-directional height of about 1.5 meters, if you neglect my momentum in the x-axis since it wouldn't have contributed). My arm struck a concrete step directly on the ulna about an inch or two from the elbow joint. A good deal of colorful language ensued, followed by me hobbling my way to a couch.
I couldn't move my fingers or bend/extend my elbow without excruciating pain, but that didn't matter 'cause I was already in excruciating pain. It effing hurt. The skin was broken and it was bleeding mildly...it had already started swelling and turning various shades of purple. I had some 10/325 Percocet left over from being rear-ended back in June, so I took half of one. I directed some of my friends to construct a makeshift sling out of a heavy-duty plastic trashbag and they drove me to the local ER.
This ER isn't particularly known for its efficiency or accuracy - people generally leave in worse shape than they came. But it was the only place to get x-rays at midnight. After the usual rounds of examination (determining that my temperature was 99.1 F, my blood pressure was 135/84, and my use of french was quite accomplished), a doctor finally came in to look at it. He jerked it all around and bent it at weird angles ... the narcotic helped with the pain but it did nothing to alleviate the nausea from his examination. Head-into-trashcan. They eventually took me in for x-rays...I thought I was going to pass out from how bad that hurt. "Here, just rotate your arm about 270 more degrees."
I went back to look at the x-rays - the nurse and I both saw a crack in the anterior aspect of the ulna opposite the point of impact. However, the doctor assured me that it wasn't broken, just bruised and sprained, and gave me a prescription for narcotics (5/325) with instructions to go home and put ice on the swelling. They also gave me a sling and a referral to a bone specialist for after the weekend.
It was still hurting tremendously on Friday morning - I used surgical wrapping and an Ace bandage to construct a makeshift semi-flexible cast. I drove home (6 hours with a stickshift...not fun) and I've kept it wrapped up and in a sling since I got home (I unwrap it at night). I've also been on low dosage Percocet, ibuprofen, and flexeril. This morning when I woke up, my wrist and fingers were terribly numb and the pain was a bit worse. Yesterday the pain had subsided some, but this morning it could only be described as a shooting ache that felt like I was pushing a nail through parallel to the bone whenever I moved my arm. It's still purple and swollen, but not as much as as before. Do you think it's broken, sprained, bruised, or what? I've sprained my ankle before several times and it doesn't feel anything like that...this is more like a grinding sharp ache than a stretchy sprain-pain. Diagnosis? standonbible(Talk)Assume good faith and stay neutral!16:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, there isn't a physician real or not (and I don't practice medicine anymore, so I'm not), who would give advice or diagnose over the internet. But I will give you a bit of advice--see a physician in person. Oh, one more piece of advice. Quit prescribing yourself medication. Sorry, but this isn't the place for practicing medicine. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions04:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not medical advice in any shape or form, but a general comment from an anonymous Wikipedia editor, so consider it in that context: any traumatic injury that's associated with changes in nerve function (numbness, weakness, altered sensation, etc) should be evaluated (or re-evaluated) right away. MastCellTalk04:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Sir Moses Montefore, a Jewish activist who died 123 years ago this month
"Censorship" of names of G-d
There is an interesting discussion currently taking place regarding whether or not it is acceptable to censor (i.e. G-d, HaShem->YodHey) names of G-d in articles to protect Jews who may be reading or editing the article. You can weigh in here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism#Yahweh.
Article Cleanup Lists User:B. Wolterding has generously offered us use of his bot to generate lists that show which articles of ours are tagged for cleanup. You can read more about this service here: User:B._Wolterding/Cleanup_listings and if you would like to take him up on his offer, contact him on his talk page.
WikiProject Kabbalah's only Featured and Good articles have been removed from the WikiProject, on the grounds that neither article (Diane Keaton and David Beckham, respectively) actually mention the subject's affiliation with Kabbalah. If you have sourced information linking either of these people to Kabbalah, please add it so the articles can be returned to the WikiProject.
After a rather heated discussion, there are now two barnstars for use by the Jewish WikiProjects, {{The Jewish Barnstar}} and {{The New Jewish Barnstar}}, and you can choose which one you would like to use.. Remember: barnstars are for rewarding users who are doing good work on the project or on Judaism, Jewish History, or Kabbalah articles, and anyone can give anyone else a barnstar. If you see a user who you thinks deserves a thank you, give them a barnstar!
To Do/Help Requests
If you have some spare time on your hands, we could use an article about a Kabbalah scholar named Moshe Idel. According to HG there are quite a few sources easily available, you can contact him if you have questions. Be sure to nominate it for DYK if the finished article is eligible.
The folks at Shimon Peres need some assistance from someone familiar with both the Hebrew calendar and language to help them figure out the subject's birthday. If you can help, please see Talk:Shimon_Peres#Birthday.
We get a lot of articles that are being created and not announced! By announcing new articles, you attract attention to them, and the more people looking and editing the better they will get. If you would like your new article to appear in the newsletter, add it here for Judaism and Kabbalah and here for Jewish History.
There are some 40 odd standing requests for Judaism related articles. Please make them! I would, but I'm too busy writing this. .
This newsletter was automatically delivered because you are a member of one or more Judaism related WikiProjects. If you would like to opt out of future mailings, please remove your name from this list. As always, please direct all questions, comments, requests, barnstars, offers of help, and angry all-caps anti-semitic rants to my talk page. Thanks, and have a great month. L'Aquatique[approves|this|message]20:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for voting in my RfA, which did not succeed with 47 support, 21 oppose, and 1 neutral. I appreciate both the supports and the opposes. Thanks again and cheers! TN‑X-Man19:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
What do you think of the article called Bone Health? Legitimate topic? Covered elsewhere? Speedy tagged for deletion at the moment, but its over my head. If it is in fact deleted/deletable, the generic search phrase "bone health" should really redirect somewhere I think. Where? Keeperǀ7619:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I just deleted four related articles: WINForum, Better Breakfast, Bone Health, and Recovery Drinks, all created by the same newer user. Left a note on the user's talkpage to, in a nice way, go away. And I'm now thirsty for chocolate milk. Keeperǀ7620:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
See, this is why I don't like you very much. You couldn't leave me the pleasure of dropping a very wonderfully written message on his user talk. I don't like you. Meanie. Blah. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions21:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh, but his usertalk is unprotected. Feel free to leave any message you want, keeping in mind of course that anything you say can, and will, be used against you in a court of law secret trial. :-) Keeperǀ7621:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the last warning I will receive for my disruptive edits, such as the one I made to User talk:Harry "Snapper" Organs. If I vandalize Wikipedia again, I will be blocked from editing. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Done. Keeper ǀ 76 18:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Resolved