User talk:Johnson103

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Sources in biography articles

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October 2014

Before adding a category to an article, as you did to Delroy Chuck, please make sure that the subject of the article really belongs in the category that you specified according to Wikipedia's categorization guidelines. Categories must also be supported by the article's verifiable content. Categories may be removed if they are deemed incorrect for the subject matter. Thank you.

Please do not add or change content, as you did to Delroy Chuck, without verifying it by citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Dl2000 (talk) 18:41, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates, or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did at Delon Thamrin, you may be blocked from editing. Thank you. KJ ^Discuss? 09:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

You continue to add unsourced content to articles (example) despite ample warning that doing so violates Wikipedia's policies regarding reliable sourcing and biographies of living persons. If this continues you will likely be blocked from editing.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 16:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

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October 2014

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• url=http://homemy.jyumzsf.com/Zuopin/201304/8188.html|title=Yao Yuping and the Xinhai Revolution]]|language=Chinese|date=8 April 2013}}</ref> || || 姚雨平 || 1882-1974 || Pingyuan, Guangdong ||

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Unsourced information

Hi: I have reverted your addition of Hakka ethnicity to Jannie Chan. As you have been told before, information you add needs to have a source cited, especially if it is potentially contentious, and information about the ethnicity of living people definitely falls into this category. Provide a reference for such edits, no matter how much you may believe the information to be common knowledge. The reference does not have to be to an English-language source, although it is courteous to include a translation of the key sentence or phrase. It does have to be a reliable source such as a newspaper, not, for example, a blog. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• Following up here - thanks for adding the source to Jannie Chan. I filled out more information identifying it, and had another editor who can read Chinese check it. Please, after you are unblocked, always add a reference like that when you add the information. On the other hand, at Roy Chiu, I reverted you; Baidu Baike is not an acceptable source. You need another academic source, or a newspaper, or something like that. See WP:Reliable sources. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for the continued addition of unsourced ethnicity and descent information and categories to biography articles despite multiple explanations as to how this violates Wikipedia policy and a warning that such behaviour would lead to a block of your account. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.  Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

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Your experience with Wikipedia so far

Hello Johnson103,

I am conducting research about newcomers to Wikipedia and I was hoping to ask you some questions. I’ve noticed you’ve had some good activity recently. Is there any chance you have time in the next month to speak with me? If you are interested or have any questions, please email me at gmugar [at] syr.edu or leave a message on my talk page.

I hope to be in touch soon,

Gabrielm199 (talk) 22:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!

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March 2016

Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living (or recently deceased) persons, as you did to Zhang Haiyang‎. Please do not add unsourced information about people's ethnicity. Zanhe (talk) 18:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

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On the list of Hakka people is controversial ( many are mixed or with very little Hakka ancestry)

Firstable excuse my poor English and bad grammers. I've been looking at your edits since 2015 and I noticed almost all of them about Hakka people. I myself is proud of my partial Hakka bloodline but I also think that the list of Hakka people page should also stated with " little or partial Hakka ancestry " because properly more than one-third or maybe even half of the people on the page are of mixed ancestry of different proportion from 3/4 to 1/8.

Like for example I met this guy before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Kwok_Fai). I'm surprised he is listed here. I once talked with this guy and he doesn't even identify as Hakka ( or maybe he changed his mind ? ). He just has one great grandmother from his father side. His father is part Hakka ( 1/4 ) and he is only 1/8 obviously but he is not of paternal Hakka but with Cantonese paternal.

And this guy Mark Chung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Chung ) who I also met him and he told me he is Black, Chinese, Indo-Guyanese ( he is part Indian, which is surprisingly not mentioned on the wiki page ). I didn't even hear him say Hakka but he very well be being most Jamaican-Chinese are Hakka.

The list of notable hakkas also listed people like Tessanne Chin, Tami Chynn, Aron Winter are all 75% (3/4) racially non-Asian and look nothing like Asian let alone Hakka. They most likely would not even idendity as Asians let alone Hakka since they do not follow the silly notion of outdated Chinese traditional paternal heritage like we do but instead measure themselves by how much proportion or percentage of ancestry they inherited from a particular race or ethnic group and if they are mixed with Black it is 99% guaranteed they will identify as Black due to Asian discrimination towards Blacks and Africans. Most people and most ethnic groups today do not follow the notion of paternal heritage except for Han Chinese. Michael Lee-Chin and his parents consider themselves Black. And if you look at the African-American and other Jamaicans also claim him as Black even though he is Blasian. The thing is Black people would even claim Caucasians even with only 12.5% Black African ancestry as Black because of their historical discrimination they have suffered ( from the one drop rule ) and because of that history you would find even the lightest skin, european looking people calling themselves Black if they trace back African heritage from their great-granparent or even if they have only little African ancestry from a ancestor, because once the pure whites finds out he is not pure white guy they still don't consider them as one of their own.

And just like African-American we Hakka are also victims of discrimination and endured it for hundreds of years or even since the way migrated to southern china and this is why the unity of Hakka blood is so strong even among people with little Hakka ancestry or people who can trace back to a 200 yeard old Hakka ancestor would call themselves Hakka. I'm sure you have already met people who call themselves Hakka even though they were only 50% , 25% , 12.5%. 6.25% Hakka by heritage. The thing is we Hakka had historically suffered discrimination historically, even though now it have ended we still carry that stigma of a people who were despise, discriminated, prejudiced. This is why you have Chinese despite having little to almost no non-Hakka blood calling themsleves Hakka but realistically these people are not Hakka in the western notion sense of even from most people's perspective today (and that includes me). So now you have Hakka Chinese behaving like African Americans.

I'm also 50% Hakka from my father but my mother 25% Teochew and 25% Cantonese. I consider myself Hakka since my paternal line are from the Hakka people. Some of my friends who have non-Hakka father but with Hakka mother or grandmother identify themselves as Hakka but some do not either I also met one 19 year Singaporean girl who was born from a Hakka father and Teochew mother but only calls herself Teochew because his Hakka father abandonded her when she was little and cheated on her mother with another women. Hakka is nothing more but a linguistic group so it's really hard to say if there's such thing as a Hakka race. Some people even get confused with Hakka Chinese being listed as a ethnic minority of China because of being edited seperately from Han Chinese

223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: Not too sure how to use the chat here. Basically, the Chinese follow the father side. He/she could be 1/16 Hakka but still a Hakka. There are people who identified themselves as Hakka but are not Hakka, which I did not include here (eg 胡瓜, 王心凌 Cyndi Wang). As for Chan Kwok Fai, his surname 曾 show him to be Hakka or Hokkien though. A check on Chinese web pages show him to be Hakka - https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9B%BE%E5%9B%BD%E7%8F%B2 But I will remove him since his paternal side is not Hakka. If you look at Michael Lee-Chin, Tessanne Chin, Tami Chynn, Aron Winter, information on their non-Chinese ancestry is provided under the column Description.

My paternal side is one reason I identify myself as Hakka but most importantly that part of my heritage predominates so it makes sense that I identify myself as Hakka Chinese ( although I don't want to deny my other sides too). My opinion is predominant non-Hakka shouldn't be listed as Hakka but people with some Hakka ancestry. I find many of the wiki pages shouldn't be edited with just Hakka in the description because the truth is we don't know if they identify as Hakka. Many mistakes on those who claim who edited people claiming some Hakka ancestry and listed them Hakka and identify with Hakka, the truth is we don't know if they all identify themselves like that or even follow the traditional paternal side heritage in this modern age, or maybe only the old generation does that not the new generation of modern Hakka's. It also looks stupid and misleading, it almost gives people the wrong impressive that Hakka does not belong to a authentic Han Chinese but some ethnic minority of China/chinese who became sinicized, it also looks stupid and retarded to describe it as a ethnicity. There are thousands of notable people who are non-Hakka like Teochew, Shanghainese, Cantonese, Hokkien, Beijinger, Taishanese, Sichuanese, Wu speakers, Anhuinese but I do not see them being edited everywhere like Hakka do.

Those who call themselves Hakka despite being 1/16 ( 6.25% ) is really pointless if you ask me. All they have is one great great grandfather who was Hakka but realistically they are 93.75% non-Hakka and look nothing like Hakka. It's like claiming to be Black and still look something like Tom cruise or Brad pitt, besides Hakka Chinese ( generally most Chinese) tend to discriminates against people of partial non-Chinese ancestry, I'm one myself. We ussually discriminate against those who are half African or half Southeast Asian, but they get more respected if they are part white even if they are born from a White father and Chinese mother, they get much more respected than a Chinese father and Thai/Filipino mother. I know a Thai Chinese who is half Hakka and half Thai and she hates Singaporean Chinese for discriminating against Thai's and because she's half Thai she almost never identify with her father's side. Simply because she looks more like her mother and knows she's half thai. Many Westernized Chinese and overseas chinese do not follow the paternal side, only people from China does but you can also find many Chinese from China discriminating against mixed race even when their paternal side are Han Chinese. In almost every case of individuals mixed with African/Black always end up identifying themselves with the Black race even when their father side is white, they would claim to be black even when their mother is Black or evem only their great gradnmother was Black. For the Chinese people, even if your mother side is Chinese but father side is European, Japanese, Korean or of east Asian descent the Chinese will show much more respect to you than mixed races born from Chinese father and mother come from some 3rd world poor country of darker skin color like Southeast Asia African, India. They still look down on you because they come undeveloped countries. So it's no longer about following paternal in this time and age, is all about race.

Is very confusing. In Singapore and Malaysia you can find Hakka Chinese with Cantonese/Hokkien/Teochew surnames and Teochew, Hokkien with Hakka surname. Properly they all have one great grandfather or great great grandfather who was either Hakka or non-Hakka or maybe borrowed the surnames, who knows. 223.27.194.66 (talk) 9:30, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: "There are thousands of notable people who are non-Hakka like Teochew, Shanghainese, Cantonese, Hokkien, Beijinger, Taishanese, Sichuanese, Wu speakers, Anhuinese but I do not see them being edited everywhere like Hakka do." - This is not true if you take a look at the pages for Cantonese people, Taishanese people, Teochew people. In the list of notable people there, historical characters before 18th century are included, ancestry from maternal side are included, and even Hakkas born in non-Hakka lands are included as Cantonese/Taishanese/Teochew people. I tried to be strict even to the point of not including characters like Deng Xiaoping whose Hakka ancestry is not confirm.

"Many Westernized Chinese and overseas chinese do not follow the paternal side, only people from China does" - I beg to differ again. Although this is English Wikipedia, other cultures should be respected. Chinese should follow the Chinese way, regardless of whether they are Mainland Chinese or overseas Chinese. An example will be Lee Kuan Yew, who always emphasized that he is Hakka although he may have 1/4 Hakka blood. He never state that he is Peranakan although he may be influenced by the Peranakan culture more than the Hakka culture. I have no problem with Peranakans stating that LKY is one of their own though.

"Is very confusing. In Singapore and Malaysia you can find Hakka Chinese with Cantonese/Hokkien/Teochew surnames and Teochew, Hokkien with Hakka surname. Properly they all have one great grandfather or great great grandfather who was either Hakka or non-Hakka or maybe borrowed the surnames, who knows." - These occurred mainly when their great grandparents era when they registered with the British authorities and they spoke a non-Hakka dialect to the administrative officer. I have met Hakkas who are Goh, Tan, etc.

As mentioned before, the information under Description already give information to whether they have non-Chinese ancestry. I hope you can understand and hope you can contribute too. Thanks for sharing your point of view!

Reply: I would also like to highlight the Census taken in Singapore in 2010 - [1]. Besides the cultural standard, the government also take the paternal way. In the categorization by dialect groups, the majority would be of mixed dialect ancestry but they will follow the paternal side. Of course there will be circumstances like the example you mentioned when the father left when the children were at an early age and the children adopted the maternal ancestry. I could not deny this from them when their bloodline is only 1/16 or 1/32 and so on.

" This is not true if you take a look at the pages for Cantonese people, Taishanese people, Teochew people. In the list of notable people there, historical characters before 18th century are included "

Reply: I'm not talking the overal page. I'm talking about individual wiki pages like this for example ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Shih_Shiong or even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Ho) stating the ancestry or origin as Hakka like it was some distinct ethnic group that's not Han Chinese (it misleads people ). We Hakka emphasize ourselves as being Chinese more than others. China has 56 ethnic groups, of the 56 , 55 are non- Han Chinese and we Hakka belong only to the Han sub-groups. Hakka belong only to 1 out of 9 linguistic sub-groups of Han Chinese. To edit Hakka in so many pages is even more stupid than edits of Punjabi people and Tamils from India, their difference is far stronger than difference between Han Chinese. They speak different languages ( Indo-European and Dravidian ) and even look different in skin color but even they don't label their notable people everywhere in the way Hakka does (who are nothing but a sub-group of the Han). Let us just be clear again there is no such thing as Hakka race, Cantonese race, Taishanese race, Teochew race, Hokkien race, Mandarin race. They are neither ethnicity or ancestry or some sort. They are all Han Chinese who are unitfied by different Han Chinese dialect/languages. Those who are Hakka are already mentioined in the catergory section below of the page so there is really no need of the same repetative edits in the description, no need to edit as " A Hakka ". The truth is we don't know how many of them identify as Hakka and only Hakka. In Taiwan, many of the Hakka chinese are actually Yao and ethnic She minority who became Hakka and married with Taiwanese aborigines. Hakka is not united by race or DNA but by linguistic like all other Han groups.

" I beg to differ again. Although this is English Wikipedia, other cultures should be respected. Chinese should follow the Chinese way, regardless of whether they are Mainland Chinese or overseas Chinese. An example will be Lee Kuan Yew, who always emphasized that he is Hakka although he may have 1/4 Hakka blood. He never state that he is Peranakan although he may be influenced by the Peranakan culture more than the Hakka culture. I have no problem with Peranakans stating that LKY is one of their own though. "

Times had changed, we should also respect the opinions of the invidivuals. I can assure you many overseas Chinese do not follow the traditional Chinese way but the western way ( measuring ancestry/ethnicity by percentage, proportions or fractions ). And I've seen many Chinese (both overseas and mainland ) who are far more denfensive/protective of their mothers than they are too their fathers. For example my mother is not Hakka, she is Cantonese/Teochew and speak both of it, my father is Hakka but I don't speak Hakka but if anyone disrepects her I don't care if you're Hakka or not Hakka, there is no way in hell I will allow that. Sometimes maternal linkeage is stronger than paternal but still I identify myself as Hakka because it predominates my bloodline but it also depends on what you're mixed with. Those who are Hakka mixed with other Han groups would ussually identify Hakka although I've seen many females/daughters who identify only with their mother side. But those mixed with African, Southeast Asian will always identify with those.I'm sure you met these Filipino-American claiming every celebrity as Filipino even though they are only 1/2 and 1/4 ( from their maternal side ) . I had seen white/black mixed race who look almost 100% white (with ecception of it's curly hair) and still identify as Black even though only their grandmothers or great grandmother was Black.

Lee Kuan Yew, generally don't mention himself as Hakka even though he is one of us, the only time he does is to win votes and support. He also spoke Hokkien to get votes, support. He never promoted Hakka dialect and language, he banned them like he did with all other dialect group. He wanted unity in Singapore because of it's diverse groups of Chinese, Malay, Indians

These occurred mainly when their great grandparents era when they registered with the British authorities and they spoke a non-Hakka dialect to the administrative officer. I have met Hakkas who are Goh, Tan, etc. There are Hakka who's paternal side is not Hakka but claim to be Hakka because they are 3/4 and 7/8 Hakka. To me..... those who's paternal side are not Hakka but are 3/4 Hakka overall are far more Hakka than those who claim to be Hakka but are only 1/4 Hakka from the paternal side. However if they identify as Hakka even though they are only 1/4 I wouldn't mind it. So if you can find all those mixed people who identify with only Hakka Chinese than that be great however if they don't identify " as only Hakka Chinese or even mention themselves with multiple of different ethnicities than that it's not Hakka. They are just Chinese or non-Asian with some Hakka ancestry.

"As mentioned before, the information under Description already give information to whether they have non-Chinese ancestry. I hope you can understand and hope you can contribute too. Thanks for sharing your point of view!

I'm always stalking and looking at your edits. Of course sometimes it feels cheesy and creepy watching you spending 9/10 of your time on a wikipedia page and almost every edit is made by you. But deep down I feel you just want to spread the Hakka name, too bad though the Hakka page recieves only 1 million views in the last 8 years since 2008. This shows most 99.9999% of the population don't even a crap except for people like me and you. I don't edit/contribute so much because I have better things to do in my life. But I hope you continue in doing what you believe though.

Reply: I would also like to highlight the Census taken in Singapore in 2010 - [1]. Besides the cultural standard, the government also take the paternal way. In the categorization by dialect groups, the majority would be of mixed dialect ancestry but they will follow the paternal side. Of course there will be circumstances like the example you mentioned when the father left when the children were at an early age and the children adopted the maternal ancestry. I could not deny this from them when their bloodline is only 1/16 or 1/32 and so on.

Like I said before, times have changed. In this day and age most people would measure their identity with percentage/proportion of their ancestry and DNA they had inherited from a race/ethnic group. Because this is the most realistic/sensible way. For example if you want to marry a white women. Are you going to choose the Black women with only 12.5% White ancestry from maleline or a blonde hair/blue eyes White women with (12.5% ) african male ancestor maline? If you have any decent commonsense you're of course going to choose the one that looks closest to white regardless if they inherited those trauts mostly from the maternal side. This is why the Singapore government's way but it's not realistic since many Singaporeans will mention all their dialect groups they are mixed with. I've met Eurasians who are 3/4 White and 1/4 Asians and almost everyone one of them look as white as the next white boy walking on the streets. Their Asian features seldom appears and look neglible and so it doesn't matter if their maternal or paternal heritage is Asian. This is why this identification with paternal is outdated besides even in many cases of those 50%/50% mix end up looking like their maternal side in appearance. This is Singapore's government but doesn't mean most people agree and you also have to include to all overseas chinese in the world not just from Singapore. -223.27.194.66 (talk) 02:31, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: 1. LKY could not promote Hakka or any dialect because it is in the nation's interest to promote Mandarin. Not only he had stated numerous times that he is Hakka, he is also a very proud one too:-

a. In a National Day Rally Speech, he stated his bias for a Hakka daughter-in-law and was very happy to learn that LHL first wife is Hakka. You can find this info in the latest book on him.

b. In parliament, he told the House he is Hakka. This can be found in youtube. See 7:18 min at (youtu.be/BqCd8508JRo)

c. In the book 80 famous quotes of LKY, he said being Hakka contributed to his success.

d. In the book The man and his ideas, he said teochew and hakka DNA made them more brilliant than other groups.

e. Lee Wei Ling attributed her toughness to being Hakka in her famous eulogy. By blood, she is only 1/8 Hakka and LHL children will be 1/16.

But Lee family has hakka influence. The cantonese majie servant use hakka Ngai when referring to herself when she was interviewed. Only hakka use Ngai for I or Me. LKY brother family has visited their ancestral village in Dabu too.

2. There are also many indivudal pages that state Taishanese ancestry. Removing the Hakka ancestry and keeping only information in Categories may have a problem. In the past, others have removed the Categories because there is no citation which can only be put on the main page but not next to Categories.

3. Not only taking Singapore as a standard, but taking China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Spore and Msia as standards as these are the countries where Chinese culture has been kept most in tact and where overseas chinese will look up to for reference to chinese culture. In taiwan and hk, there is an resurgence of people wanting to learn about their roots and identity. A good example is Taiwan leading actor James Wen who is 0.5 Hakka on the paternal side. At the age of 30, he could not speak a single word of Hakka. In searching for his roots and identity, he made efforts to learn Hakka and is now a very fluent hakka speaker who had appeared in hakka movies and dramas. Hong Kong hakkas still proudly declared they are hakka although they could hardly speak it. Culturally, they may even be more cantonese than hakka. There was a hakka/cantonese variety show by TVB a few years ago. Even communist China local govt eg in huizhou now is trying to promote hakka although dialects have always been deemphasized in china.

4.If only pure hakkas are to be included in the list, in time to come nobody will be able to qualify as hakka as it is common to marry outside the dialect group or race nowadays. It was found that Li Ka Shing ancestors were Hakka but since he has embraced Teochew as his dialect, it should be respected. Former Taiwan vice president Lien Chan has Hakka ancestors but the Lien clan moved to Minnan areas several generations ago. He state that he is Minnan. Ma Ying jeou always emphasized he is hakka and show evidence that his ancestors were hakka several hundred years ago. But I do not think he is accepted as hakka by the larger hakka community.

5. I think your main concern are hakkas who have mixed with other races and hardly look chinese. So how can we call them hakka right? I have the same reservations in the past until I have met some of them. They do not look chinese because of their non-chinese ancestry but not only are they fiercely proud hakkas but are actively promoting the hakka language and culture. To deny them to be hakka will be discrimination on our part.

Check out Dungsan from Canada. Not sure how much Chinese/Hakka blood he has, but he proudly declare he is Hakka and is actively promoting the Hakka language - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e56e400vgVo

Pitton, a prominent Hakka singer from Indonesia who look more local than Chinese https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W-REKPHRSk

Patrick Chan, a Eurasian from Holland in his 20s, and who initiated a Hakka segment in the local radio station in Holland where he speak Hakka to promote the Hakka culture https://www.facebook.com/patrick.chan.3979?fref=ufi

And there are many other mixed-Chinese who may not look Chinese at all, but they declare they are Hakka and are promoting Hakka actively.

1. LKY could not promote Hakka or any dialect because it is in the nation's interest to promote Mandarin. Not only he had stated numerous times that he is Hakka, he is also a very proud one too

I'm proud that we Hakka have great people like Lee Kuan Yew but some Hakka including my father don't like LKY for the same reason ( although is not anything serious). The thing is he got all the votes and support of the Hakka people but did nothing in the end to promote the Hakka language and Hakka culture. You would think a person of Hakka leadership would do something something promiseful and useful for it's own Hakka community once and for all but he did nothing to preserve the things that are dear for us, like me I couldn't speak Hakka. He could have made Hakka as the official language in Singapore just like Cantonese is made the official language of Hong Kong. Don't you just hate it that only Cantonese get to have this prestige fame while other Southern Chinese/dialect languages don't. Our language are on the verge of dying and till this day it get's only very little promotions. Sometimes I feel he promoted Hokkien more than he did Hakka, he even spoke in Hokkien to get votes from the Hokkien.

People had talked about this. Why didn't Lee Kuan Yew promoted other dialec/languages. Look at Malaysian Chinese they are billingual and speak more multiple languages than Singaporean

http://www.sammyboy.com/showthread.php?109200-Why-don-t-Singapore-PROMOTE-Teochew-Hokkien-Hakka-Wu-Gan-speaking-movie-and-songs

PROUD OF HAKKA ?? he would make us more proud if they did something to promote the Hakka, the only thing he makes us proud was the fact he was a great leader. SOME HAKKA ARE ALSO JUST DISGRACEFUL AND SHAMEFUL ASWELL. One of Lee Kuan Yew closest friend was the Taiwanese han traitor Lee Teng Hui. I really don't care if some people are proud to be Hakka. There are some Hakka who are so disgraceful that I rather they weren't a Hakka. Like Lee Teng Hui who claims to be proud of Hakka many times before but is the biggest Han Chinese traitor in history. He said " our motherland is Japan " , " Taiwan is part of Japan ", " we fought for the Japanese motherland because we were Japanese ", he even visited the Japanese war criminal shrines, claims diayou island is Japan not China. Worst yet, around 2000 Taiwanese comfort women of whom 400-500 were Hakka women who were sexual slaves for the Japanese imperial army, even when the victims of female protested with cries you have Lee Teng Hui ignoring their pleas and claiming they were just prostitutes. Does he not feel ashamed that him and his people were slaves to the Japanese for 50 years? how low can you get and still pampering the Japanese. A total of 20 million Chinese had died from the war of Japanese and he thinks no crimes had been comitted by Japanese imperial army. Than there are 2 Taiwanese women of Hakka origin who also became Japanese AV pornstars with tons of videos of them having orgy sex with Japanese men... I don't even want to name them out of fear and shame that you may include them to your list. So what is proud Hakka ? it really depends on the person. A proud Hakka is someone who does something great for all Hakka people not just for himself, not to disgrace the entire community while claiming to be a proud Hakka.

a. In a National Day Rally Speech, he stated his bias for a Hakka daughter-in-law and was very happy to learn that LHL first wife is Hakka. You can find this info in the latest book on him.

I think many Singaporeans already know he is Hakka. My father told me he is Hakka so I know that since 7 years ago although I never really heard it from him say that but that's because I'm not interested in politics anyway. Many of the Hakka and other Singaporean chinese ( new generation ) just don't care and don't give a damn or don't even know that he is Hakka.

b. In parliament, he told the House he is Hakka. This can be found in youtube

Maybe he did say it, I already know he is Hakka but I just couldn't find it on youtube but it's not big deal to me because I already know what he is.

c. In the book 80 famous quotes of LKY, he said being Hakka contributed to his success.

Every race and ethnic group has it's glory. Singapore is nothing special anyway. There is no cultural exports and no contribution, even it's own olympic medals are brought by buying PRC chinese atheletes and it's football team is made up of Malays, Indians. Relying on foreign talents to boost it's economy. Hong Kong is better and far more popular than Singapore in most things. The only success of Singapore is economy. The only true role models of Asia is South Korea and Japan and that's all Asian countries want to look up to.

d. In the book The man and his ideas, he said teochew and hakka DNA made them more brilliant than other groups.

Although I feel pride and flaterred I would never promote such talks. If that's what he said I feel ashamed. There's a reason why Chinese people are called the " the sick man of Asia ". Their historical lack of unity is one main reason. What is Teochew and Hakka DNA? such thing doesn't exist. They are nothing more but linguistic groups and so claiming they are better than other groups is already breaking up this unity apart. I even made youtube channels to promote Han unity but I give up. Seriously, chinese people are really the worst and most pathetic race in this world. Even after the Japanese invasion of China which killed 20 million, CCP and Kuamintang were still fighting eachother ( 5 million death tole ) than the cultural revolution ( 40-70 million death toll ) the Chinese are still fighting eachother today ( China vs Taiwan.... China vs Hong Kong )and now that Chinese people/tourist are today viewed as the most inferior ( shitting, pissing, spitting everywhere in the world ). We Singaporeans, Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, Malaysian Chinese, PRC China are all ethnic Han Chinese, the westerners and Japanese look down on us like animals saying we do nothing but copy, emulate, faking but even now still we haven't learned our lesson. Even before WW2 there was the Cantonese-Hakka clan wars, Hokkien-Hakka clan wars. I even met Taiwanese and Hong kong people calling chinese people as " Shina people " ( a derogatory term used by Japanese soldiers ). It is insane things like this that makes me ashame to be Chinese. Singaporeans fighting against Malaysian Chinese. Hong Kong/Taiwan against China and now we have Singapore against PRC citizens.

e. Lee Wei Ling attributed her toughness to being Hakka in her famous eulogy. By blood, she is only 1/8 Hakka and LHL children will be 1/16.

Well I already said before that there are some people who even claim themselves to be Hakka even when they have only 12.5% and 6.25% Hakka blood. But this kind of thing ussually only works on mixed Chinese group but than again not all Chinese group only claim their Hakka side. It will definately not works against those mixed with Africans and Southeast Asians like Filipino, Vietnamese, Burmese. It may work on Thais if you are 1/2 Chinese but that's it. Yesterday I've met a guy who was pure Chinese, he said his grandfather was Hakka but he called himself a Hakka-Hainanese-Shangainese mix.

By the way, does Lee Wei Ling exclude her other ancestries ? I don't think she can do that. Just because she claims her Hakka side made her tough doesn't mean she would deny it herself and for her children. I personally find it absurd even for a Hakka like myself. If we follow such absurdity logic than even Wentworth Miller and Vin Diesel can claim hemseves to Black, and they do claim do be black but only they look 100% Caucasian with brown eyes/blue eyes. It's really to stupid to identify with a 1/8 and 1/16 fraction of your ancestry. Is unrealistic and stupid. This kind of crap annoys people in the same way that White Americans are claiming themselves to native Indians when all they have is but a puny 6 - 12.5% Native American ancestry or the Bulgarian Turks who claim to be of Turkic descent when they are in fact Turkified slavs with small percentages of Turkish y-chromosome DNA from 15th generations back.

2. There are also many indivudal pages that state Taishanese ancestry. Removing the Hakka ancestry and keeping only information in Categories may have a problem. In the past, others have removed the Categories because there is no citation which can only be put on the main page but not next to Categories.'

But the information section is even more bias. On the English wikipedia it claims Andrienne Clarkson as Hakka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrienne_Clarkson but on the Chinese wikipedia https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BC%8D%E5%86%B0%E6%9E%9D it says only Andriene clarkson mother is Hakka but not her father. So by your logic she shouldn't be considered as Hakka either since her paternal ancestry is not Hakka. We should at least be honest by stating only her mother is a hakka and father is Taishanese but the information in English wiki stated nothing about her being Taishanese.

3. Not only taking Singapore as a standard, but taking China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Spore and Msia as standards as these are the countries where Chinese culture has been kept most in tact and where overseas chinese will look up to for reference to chinese culture. In taiwan and hk, there is an resurgence of people wanting to learn about their roots and identity. A good example is Taiwan leading actor James Wen who is 0.5 Hakka on the paternal side. At the age of 30, he could not speak a single word of Hakka. In searching for his roots and identity, he made efforts to learn Hakka and is now a very fluent hakka speaker who had appeared in hakka movies and dramas. Hong Kong hakkas still proudly declared they are hakka although they could hardly speak it. Culturally, they may even be more cantonese than hakka. There was a hakka/cantonese variety show by TVB a few years ago. Even communist China local govt eg in huizhou now is trying to promote hakka although dialects have always been deemphasized in china.'

Hakka promotion is extremely weak. Is basically nothing compared to the media exposure of Cantonese and Mandarin. What the hell 0.5%  ? why can't some people be more realistic..... this stupid crap reminds me of those White-American hollywood actors who claim to have 5% Native American ancestry so that they can play leading Native America roles in the movies. Lol and back than in America those who have only 1% of Black blood are considered Black even if you looked like blonde hair/blue eyes white princess. Nobody follows such a oudated silly notion anymore (except for some delusional Chinese ) because even in the U.S census today, those who are only 1/2 Black must put themselves mixed. Just because some Hakka people (usually the old generation) follow this notion doesn't mean everyone does. I already told you that I had met people who call themselves Hakka even though they were only 1/8 but I've also met people who are only 1/4 Hakka and don't just refer to themselves Hakka. They call themselves mix of every Chinese. I mean surely you've met Singaporeans or even Malaysian Chinese bragging about they are mix of this and that.

4. If only pure hakkas are to be included in the list, in time to come nobody will be able to qualify as hakka as it is common to marry outside the dialect group or race nowadays. It was found that Li Ka Shing ancestors were Hakka but since he has embraced Teochew as his dialect, it should be respected. Former Taiwan vice president Lien Chan has Hakka ancestors but the Lien clan moved to Minnan areas several generations ago. He state that he is Minnan. Ma Ying jeou always emphasized he is hakka and show evidence that his ancestors were hakka several hundred years ago. But I do not think he is accepted as hakka by the larger hakka community.'

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't neccesarily say you must be pure but the purer the better. I know families who's both side are Hakka. Those who are 3/4 Hakka even when their paternal are not are more Hakka than those who 1/2 Hakka with paternal. Those who are only 1/4 Hakka but are 75% non-Asian racially ( African, White ect ) should never be included as just Hakka but mix race with little or some Hakka ancestry. It's absurd to even call a predominant looking Black person a Hakka (Chinese) besides I've met Singaporean Chinese who don't just don't call themselves as strictly Hakka . Many will call themselves Cantonese-Hakka-Teochew mix or Hokkien-Hakka-Hainanese mix. I've met such people before. And by the way Ling Ka Shing paternal ancestor is Teochew but mother's ancestor is Hakka that's what I read from a Hakka forum in 2004 but I don't know if it's fact or not.

5. I think your main concern are hakkas who have mixed with other races and hardly look chinese. So how can we call them hakka right? I have the same reservations in the past until I have met some of them. They do not look chinese because of their non-chinese ancestry but not only are they fiercely proud hakkas but are actively promoting the hakka language and culture. To deny them to be hakka will be discrimination on our part.

Check out Dungsan from Canada. Not sure how much Chinese/Hakka blood he has, but he proudly declare he is Hakka and is actively promoting the Hakka language - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e56e400vgVo Pitton, a prominent Hakka singer from Indonesia who look more local than Chinese https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W-REKPHRSk Patrick Chan, a Eurasian from Holland in his 20s, and who initiated a Hakka segment in the local radio station in Holland where he speak Hakka to promote the Hakka culture https://www.facebook.com/patrick.chan.3979?fref=ufi And there are many other mixed-Chinese who may not look Chinese at all, but they declare they are Hakka and are promoting Hakka actively.'

You use a few random examples who are not from the wiki hakka list. None of them are celebrities/famous individuals and notice how none of the people you chose are partially African descent. It's very important to be as realistic as possible. Racial appearance it's important because it's a reflection of our true identity everyday. Being a Hakka-Chinese, I had faced racial discrimination by whites, blacks. They didn't care if I was a Hakka or not, they just think I'm a Chinese-Asian person with small penis.

I'm not even just talking about the 1/2 ( halfbreed) ones. I'm talking about the ones who are only 1/4 , 1/8 , 1/16 Hakka Chinese ancestry while the rest are 3/4 , 7/8 , 15/16 are racially southeast asian, white, black ( including other mix group Hans ). It is unlikely that most of them would identify as only Hakka Chinese when they have only minority percentages, even for those who are mixed with Han. You can't just use few examples of 50/50 halbreed. I have never before in my entire life met one 3/4 non-Chinese + 1/4 Chinese mix breed and still claim themselves as only Chinese. Find me those celebrities who are only 3/4 ( 75% ) non-Asian or non-Chinese people and still identify themselves as Hakka Chinese or perharps even just find those who are 1/2 Half African claiming themselves to be only Hakka Chinese. I know hakka girls and Hokkien girls who are married to Indian men, they refer their children as "chindians" and never Hakka.

IS NOT ABOUT DENYING.......... IS ABOUT BEING REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE........... for example Asian men have suffered much racism through the Hollywood media who portrays us as sexually undesirable weak beings. Many of the roles of anime characters and comics should have been played by Asians but were instead changed to white actors and even when we complained about it they still used the most whitest looking mixed Eurasian breeds with only 1/4 or 1/2 Asian ancestry ( <--- what annoys me most is not the fact they don't look Asian but they think it can stop us from saying hollywood is racist ). With exception of kungfu / martial art movies, full-blooded Asian males do not get any high budget leading roles in the western cinema. This is why many don't like mix breeds representing full-blooded Asians. This is one of the biggest difference between full-blooded and halfbreed. So even though I myself am only 50% Hakka Chinese I can still say I'm 100% Chinese + 100% Asian. Those people who you claim to be Hakka could change their opinion any moment with new experiences eventually they had gain they will claim their diverse racial/ethnicity/dialect identities. Besides our Hakka relatives frown upon such marriages of chinese and non-chinese - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 22:45, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: lky and lee teng hui do not speak to each other for last 20 years, just stop short of saying they are enemies. They are certainly not friends. When lky visit twn, he will speak to both kmt and dpp leaders except lth. This info can be found in many youtubes. Just enter lky and lth in chinese in your search. Wiki does not allow me to put in such links here.

Lky style has always to be neutral to all eg he did not do anything for his alma mater raffles institution unlike goh chok tong.

Lee wei ling also state her peranakan ancestry although lky does not. But lee wei ling know she is first and foremost a hakka.

As for adrienne Clarkson, I am surprised wiki state that she is hakka but she is not on the list although she may be more culturally hakka than taishanese. I will remove it from her page. Vivenne Poy who is sister in law of Adrienne and also of paternal taisanese and maternal hakka ancestry has also been active in promoting hakka culture in canada.

Li ka shing mother could be hakka as well as his ancestors are hakka who came from a pure hakka area. But since he has embraced teochew culture and state that he is teochew after so many generations, he should be acknowledged as teochew unless he identfy as hakka one day 李嘉诚祖籍是福建纯客家县上杭

The few examples I gave is to highlight that there are people of mixed ancestry although not famous or celebrity, not only identify themselvs as hakka but are actively promoting it. I believe dungsan has african ancestry. I can ask him.

You may also like to check up Toronto Hakka Conference in youtube. There are many young people there and some are mixed. People who have not stated they are hakka may do so after they have gained new experience, it work both ways.

Michael lee-chin has received a hakka achievement award. He could have declined. http://jis.gov.jm/six-jamaicans-to-receive-hakka-achievement-award/

Yes. People may claim to be of different ancestry. Eg you are of hakka, teochew and cantonese descent but you will state you are hakka when people asked which dialect group you belong to right? It is a culture within a culture.

And yes you are right. Hakka promotion is weak and which is why there need to be more efforts in this area. There used to be hakka schools in hong kong but the british make cantonese the standard and official language so that the hkers do not mix with the communist mainlanders in mandarin. There is political agenda. This is division of chinese people which I think is contrary to what you are advocating. Today we see young hkers wanting independence.

Reply: lky and lee teng hui do not speak to each other for last 20 years, just stop short of saying they are enemies. They are certainly not friends. When lky visit twn, he will speak to both kmt and dpp leaders except lth. This info can be found in many youtubes. Just enter lky and lth in chinese in your search. Wiki does not allow me to put in such links here.

Lee Teng Hui and Lee Kuan Yew knew each other when they were young and went to the same English school. The biggest difference was LKY was pro-Chinese while Lee Teng Hui was pro-Japanese. I wouldn't be surprised that LKY felt disgusted with Lee Teng Hui when he proclaimed himself as Japanese and even wrote books that justify Japan colonization of Taiwan and occupation of Asia, aswell as the sovereignty of China islands belonging to Japan. He always glorifies the actions of the Japanese in WW2 and never talk of their crimes. LKY on the other hand hated the Japanese and mention the terrible years of living under Japanese rule. Many thousands of Singaporeans were executed in public and suffered crimes from the Japanese. My Hakka grandparents hated the Japanese people a lot and witnessed their cruelty back in the days.

Lee wei ling also state her peranakan ancestry although lky does not. But lee wei ling know she is first and foremost a' hakka.'

If Lee wei ling choose to identify with Hakka I have no objections because it is her right but she doesn't represent every other Hakka. Most Hakka people still claim to be pure Hakka so it's just extremely unrealistic. It's really no different to so many Black and white people in the United States keep claiming themselves to be Native Americans when you know jolly well they aren't. You also have American white actors/singers who claim to be black when they look no different than your average white guy. Most people ( including me ) don't take this nonsense seriously. I used to mock these white idiots on youtube claiming to be something they are not. In same, 1/8 is just too low for Lee Wei Ling. Commonsense tells us if one day a non-Hakka was to ask Lee wei ling how much Hakka blood she has and replied with only 12.5% while the rest of the 87.5% is different....our minds will tell us she is not a true Hakka only a wannabe. Imagine if she happened to 87.5% Japanese and still call herself Hakka.... would you still claim something like that as Hakka?

As for adrienne Clarkson, I am surprised wiki state that she is hakka but she is not on the list although she may be more culturally hakka than taishanese. I will remove it from her page. Vivenne Poy who is sister in law of Adrienne and also of paternal taisanese and maternal hakka ancestry has also been active in promoting hakka culture in canada.

That's why I said sometimes our maternal linkeages are stronger than our paternal. Although I think we should only keep mostly the paternal side not those who are 1/2 Hakka maternal HOWEVER if he/she is +3/4 Hakka from the maternal side why not include them ? in the end they have more Hakka blood. We don't always have to strictly follow the traditional paternal side.

Li ka shing mother could be hakka as well as his ancestors are hakka who came from a pure hakka area. But since he has embraced teochew culture and state that he is teochew after so many generations, he should be acknowledged as teochew unless he identfy as hakka one day 李嘉诚祖籍是福建纯客家县上杭'

I had read that Li Ka Shing father was Teochew but mother was side has a Hakka ancestor but I maybe wrong. If his grandfather was Hakka than maybe we can include him as Hakka but if by ancestor you mean 150-300 years ago or 7th-15th generation than no. I honestly don't like people who claim to be something they aren't just because they have one different ancestors. Like some Filipino fools who brag about how their ancestor was Spanish (from 400 years ago ), claiming to be part Spanish disgust me greatly especially when they look your like typical indistinguishable pure Filipino.

You may also like to check up Toronto Hakka Conference in youtube. There are many young people there and some are mixed. People who have not stated they are hakka may do so after they have gained new experience, it work both ways.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not asking you to remove those people with mixed Hakka/non-Hakka ancestry. I want just things to be more stated more clear.

Example:

Those who claim to be Hakka Chinese despite being only 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 should be stated as " People with litte to some Hakka ancestry and claim to be Hakka ".

Those who are heavily mixed race but trace back Hakka ancestry should also be stated as " People with litte to some Hakka ancestry and may or may not idendity with Hakka "

Besides I know many people who claim to be full Hakka in fact my cousin used to tease me by saying " I'm more Hakka than you... I'm more Hakka than you ". Most Hakka still claim both parents as Hakka Chinese and frown upon intermarriages with non-chinese. Those mixed Hakka examples you showed me are most likely all halfies ( 1/2 ) rather than those with only 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 fractions.

LET'S BE CLEAR........all Hakka have origins from China. True Hakka belong to the pure 100% Mongoloid race in both genetically and physical anthropology. Those who are Black / Africans belong to the Negroid race and those who are Caucasian / Europeans belong to the Caucasoid race. When you include those who are only 1/4 (25%) Hakka Chinese you are including those racially " predominantly negroid/caucasoid with only small Mongoloid admixture" Racially speaking they are not the same groups like we Asian, doesn't matter if you're from East Asia, Southeast Asia, Northern Central Asia, Siberia. All of them belong to the pure Mongoloid and predominant Mongoloid genetic cluster

So there is no such thing as a Hakka Chinese who is Negroid or Caucasoid. True Hakka, like all from China belong to the yellow/Asian race just like Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mongolian ect Any of those Asians is already more closer to a 1/4 Hakka 3/4 Thai than those who are 1/2 Hakka, 1/2 African because African genes are more dominant.

Michael lee-chin has received a hakka achievement award. He could have declined.' http://jis.gov.jm/six-jamaicans-to-receive-hakka-achievement-award/

He accepted the award but that doesn't mean he thinks he belong to the Chinese ( Hakka ) race. Besides he is only 50/50 so it doesn't seem that strange to take the award. He just acknowledges his Hakka side but he called himself a Jamaican Black-Chinese and is refered by both Jamaicans-Blacks and American Americans as a black billionaire. No way in hell does he think he belongs to the Asian/Yellow race.

Yes. People may claim to be of different ancestry. Eg you are of hakka, teochew and cantonese descent but you will state you are hakka when people asked which dialect group you belong to right? It is a culture within a culture.

When I meet non-Chinese I always tell them I'm ethnic Chinese. I'm 50% Hakka, 25% Teochew, 25% Cantonese so it makes sense so I would identify myself as Hakka most of the time. Is stupid to deny your predominant heritage however is not wise to refuse your other side either. I sometimes have this urge to claim myself mix of different dialect-groups just like many of the young Singaporean generation are doing. I would definately defend my mother's side ancestry if someone tries to insult it. I still can't change the fact I was born from 1 Hakka parent + 1 non-Hakka parent while most of my cousins have 2 Hakka parents.

And yes you are right. Hakka promotion is weak and which is why there need to be more efforts in this area. There used to be hakka schools in hong kong but the british make cantonese the standard and official language so that the hkers do not mix with the communist mainlanders in mandarin. There is political agenda. This is division of chinese people which I think is contrary to what you are advocating. Today we see young hkers wanting independence.

I don't think Hakka would ever get any promotion when even our LKY didn't do anything to promote it. Worse I've seen are Taiwanese Hakka being racist to mainland Chinese Hakka. Although most Hakka are generally united however those from Taiwan are very pro-Taiwanese and don't identify with Chinese while those Hakka from China keep claiming Taiwanese Hakka are also Chinese and that Taiwan is a part of China and due to this reason there are sometimes arguement between. We Chinese really are called the "sick men of Asia" for a good reason. The lack of unity not only among chinese from different countries but even among our own dialect group shows why China was under foreign rulers many times. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 5:16, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: I think there is some misinformation about LKY and LTH attended the same English school. LKY attended Telok Kurau Primary Sch, Raffles Institution, Raffles College and Cambridge Uni. LTH attended Taipei High School, Kyoto Imperial Uni in Japan and National Taiwan Uni.

Dialect groups are like surnames. A person of surname Tan may have 1/16 or 1/32 of the Tan's bloodline too, but he will still belong to the Tan clan. Patrilineality is what the Chinese practise.

There are a no of Taiwanese who identify themselves as Hakka although it is only on their maternal side because they grew up in a Hakka environment.

Check out Paula Madison's videos. She is black and a famous tv personality from USA. She went to China in search of her maternal Hakka roots. http://www.findingsamuellowe.com/video/?page=video

I will try to provide a better description with regard to the list.

Reply

Din't they meet eachother at a young age?.

Patrilieanity in this modern day and age has too much flaws and works only on old generation who emphasize on traditional Chinese. We should be careful how we handle this. On the youtube I once had a arguement with a Thai guy. He was a Thai Chinese who had a Hakka-Chinese speaking grandfather. All I said was that Thailand and Thais are bad role model for other Asian countries and he when so far to even insult the entire Chinese people. Also Look at the African-Americans they have 30-40% of European Y-DNA paternal lineages and are racially speaking 12.5 - 25% White blood ( average 15% ) during slavery time. You don't see pride in their white heritage.

Of course there are Taiwanese who identify as Hakka. Lee Teng Hui had and I met some in person, the only difference is they don't call themselves Chinese.

I don't think people would deny their roots. I had told people before I also have Teochew and Cantonese roots but I ussualy just call myself Hakka. I also visit my maternal side of their cousins and grandparents. You can't deny something that you're part of it. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 6:55, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: Forgot to mention that there is this American billionaire who goes by the Chinese name of 熊德龙. He is a Dutch-Indonesian native mixed. He does not look a single bit Chinese since he has no Chinese blood. He was adopted by a Hakka family in Indonesia. He speak fluent Hakka and sing the Hakka shan ge (mountain song) and is also actively promoting Hakka. He identify himself as Hakka. You can find videos of him by searching for his name 熊德龙 in youtube. His story has also been made into a drama in China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tdbazu6qDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq8jAoj91cA

Reply: That is just a ackward rare example. You have Lee Teng Hui claiming to be " Japanese " many times before but the fact remains he is not Japanese, he is Hakka Chinese ( even though he is bloody disgraceful ). And just like with this 熊德龙 , the fact remains he is not Hakka when he has 0% of it's blood. Although I'm happy there are people who idendify themselves Hakka but he is still not one of us. It is stupid, unrealistic and doesn't fly with 99.99% of the world's population, it's nonsense and delusional. If we follow such logic than a Vietnamese can claim to be Japanese , a Korean can claim to be either Mongolian or Manchu ( and DNA proof them to be genetically related ) and a Indonesian can claim to be White. And people of Hong Kong can justify themselves not calling themselves Chinese more than ever before.

This Thai-Chinese man who's grandfather was Hakka insulted the entire Chinese race (including Hakka people )

---------> http://oi66.tinypic.com/2czrorn.jpg

Do you think a guy like him is still one of us ? this is only one of his youtube comments. We had like a 10 min coversation ( I even deleted my comments just to avoid any more conflict). All I said was that Thai women are the worst role model examples of Asian women and than came this guy who started insulting me and writing things that offend the entire Chinese race. I have not said anything wrong because is true that way too many Thai women prostitute themselves to white men when you go to Bangkok, Phuket and you can find so many White men dating a Thai women and Chinese looking Thai women. Thai-Chinese make up 14% of it's population and most of them are Teochew, followed by Hakka.

泰名人（有華人血統）韓國機場實戰

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5QTPUskwLY ( A Thai-Chinese women insulting the entire Chinese tourist in airport, she could be Teochew and Hakka )

泰國華裔吐槽：大陸遊客不懂拉屎 讓泰國人憤怒和無奈

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYoc9PA3SDs ( A Thai-Chinese who banned Chinese tourist from entering his temple because Chinese defecates everywhere )- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 22:46, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply: I have amended the info on the listing which I hope can at least be acceptable by most. The part about "no Hakka blood" may be an invitation for others to remove some of the people. Most listings in wikipedia are inclusive too, but nevertheless info on the criteria are necessary. Some mixed identify themselves as hakka but there may be others who do not. We may not know unless they state it publicly. It is up to the reader to judge based on the info in Description. Some may see it as half glass full of water while some may see it as half glass empty of water.

Reply: I have no problem with most of your edits but I just want the page to be as specific, accurate, honest as possible. I don't want any bias interpretation that may misleads it's readers. I also don't want people to think that we behave like the insecure African-Americans or the Filipino's who list every person with minority ancestries as their own completely ( Only insecure people do this ). Why don't you see Whites, Mexicans, Japanese, Korean, Chinese or any other claiming " minority blooded/ancestry " as their own. Although in the description you have mentioned those who are mixed with non-Chinese ( Black, White, Japanese, Southeast-Asian ) you have not listed the ones who mixed with other Han-subgroups which I'm sure is 100x more common. I have so far not seen one that list their mother being Cantonese, Teochew, Fujianese, Shanghainese, Shangdonese ect. In Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and oveseas, it is extremely common for sub-groups to intermarry. I know many Hakka women and men who intermarry with non-Hakka-Chinese and many who are only 1/3 and 1/4 Hakka while 2/3 and 3/4 is non-Hakka.

WE HAKKA ALWAYS EMPHASIZE OURSELVES AS BEING PURE CHINESE. ( Although DNA shows that we aren't ). The point is we are Chinese refugees who escaped from Northern China to Southern China

because of the barbaric invasion of Northern China by Mongolic/Turkic/Tungustic nomads. When a Hakka who is 1/2 Hakka, 1/2 Cantonese he is no longer pure Hakka like but may identify as one. So are you trying to tell me there's no such thing as pure Hakka? because most Singaporean Hakka I know still have 2 parents both Hakka. Because most Hakka tend to stick together except for some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:45, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

So mentioning paternal and maternal is not enough because we don't know the exact percentage/degree/proportion/fraction of those who claim paternal/maternal Hakka ancestry. There's a huge difference between those who are 100% Hakka VS 50%, 33%, 25%, 12.5%, 6.25%. A big difference between those who claim to be Hakka, those who have 2 Hakka parents+ 2 Hakka grandparents VS those who claim to be Hakka but have only 1 Hakka grandparent or 1 Great-grandparents or even Great-Great grandparent.

Degree of ancestry

50% is half

33% is some

25% is little

12.5% is tiny

So we must state must those who are only 50%, 25%, 12.5%, 6.25% Hakka mixed Chinese or non-Chinese as " only little and partial Hakka ancestry but may or may not identify as Hakka" (<------- This is only a precaution, just in case' ) .

If there such thing as a " Hakka DNA" and " Hakka look" these people are clearly not Hakka in neither genetics nor appearance. You already have mentioned a signficant number of 1/4 (25%) Hakka/ 75% non-Asian so there will for sure far more 1/4 Hakka / 75% non-Hakka Chinese.

And by the way, many of the references (articles, sources ) which mentions their Hakka ancestry but does not mention they identify strictly as only Hakka. Also many of the Chinese today also don't follow the traditional Chinese.

Also you can include''

We can also include people like 熊德龙 in the list but only if you mention he isn't Hakka Chinese by race/ancestry but by identity. These are facts people want to know. Just like the Manchus who founded the Qing dynasty of China is often regarded as a Chinese dynasty. The Manchus spoke Mandarin Chinese, followed adopted traditional Chinese culture and custom and are now considered Chinese minority but it doesn't change the fact it was founded were foreign invaders who conquered China and were not of Han Chinese origin. Many dynasties that conquered and ruled Northern China for Thousands of years were in fact Xianbei who became sinicized Chinese but the fact is they were of Mongolic/Tungustic origin.

99.999999% of the world's population judge you by your; Appearance , proportion of ancestry and origin

What is Hakka to you?????? Is it a ethnicity or a linguistic sub-group? Can any person claim to be Hakka ? Is a Black man with only 50% Hakka ancestry as Hakka as those from China and Asia (who are all 100% belong to the yellow race ). If there's 1000 Black men with Hakka ancestry claiming to be Hakka, can they all got back to China and marry pure Asian Hakka women with no problem? In U.S or any country in Europe, Japan, S.Korea. People always mention what they are mixed with.

You have Irish-Americans claiming Bill Gates to be Irish but still it listed him being mix of German, British, Irish, Scotts because that's what he is in the end. His quantity of Irish ancestry is but only 25% (1/4 ) at the end of the day, doesn't matter if his paternally Irish because he doesn't look like your typical Irish bloke anyway. Andre Ward, his father is Irish-White and mother is African-American but he identifies with the Black African-American community in the end. Wentworth Miller calls himself a Black man /African American even though he is only 12.5% Black and Vin Diesel is only 25% Black, both claim to be Black but are not accepted when taking movie roles of historical African-American figures, claiming them to be " Not Black enough " and " White-washing ". :: White people who are mixed race but have only 1/3 , 1/4, 1/8 of non-White blood. I have met people who's father is 75% Filipino/25% White and mother is 100% White, ussually they look completely white even when they call themselves half filipino. Batista, Filipino-Greek wrestler. His father is Filipino ( 25% White ) and mother is 100% Greek. In the end people claim he is big and strong only because of his white blood. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 2:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm totally against your style of interpretation

(note: I have nothing against you) If you're going to include the ones mixed with White, Black, Japanese, Southeast Asian than you must also include those mixed with other Han-Chinese groups.

Lee Kuan Yew is only 1/2 (or 1/4) Hakka and 1/2 Penakaran Chinese ( mother ) Lee Hsien Loong is only 1/4 ( or 1/8 ) Hakka and his mother is Hokkien (Kwa Geok Choo) They identify as strictly Hakka but that doesn't mean the rest will do. Richard Hu Singaporean's mother is also Hokkien.

Btw, I'm pleased with most of your edits but I just want it to be as accurate and honest as possible. Lee Hsien Loong mother is in fact Hokkien Nyonya. It's mentioned on his wiki page but is not even on your description box ( List of Hakka ) so the least we can do is mention that they also mixed with different variety of Han-subgroups.

- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 4:02, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

Wikipedia listings do not breakdown the ancestry by percentage. It will be almost impossible for quite a number of people if we were to trace their ancestries. You may say you have Teochew ancestry on your maternal side, but in Chinese, you will say 我妈妈是潮州人 or 我有潮州血统 but you will still say 我是客家人. There are many young people who just identified their dialect group from their paternal side only. See this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5kkQErZ4c Shall we put this to a vote? You can't simply put it in your own terms right? If you wish to have breakdown of their different ancestries, you can always put the info in their individual Wiki pages. You can look at Taishanese people, Cantonese people, Teochew people on Wiki, none of them breakdown their ancestries. The other Han ancestries are really not necessary on such listings.

I don't agree. They break down ancestries for Bill Gates, Wentworth Miller and every Hollywood celebrity so why not the same for Hakka?

I'm not removing anyone from the list. Just want to say they all have different degrees of ancestry.

We should do something based on facts. If they are mixed than they are mixed. Are you telling you never hear people saying my father is nothern chinese and mother is southern chinese? There are many who don't identify with just their dialect group anyway and even if they do WE SHOULD ALSO MENTION WHAT THEY TRUELY ARE. So why not be honest and real? because I really don't see any other reason other than you don't want people to know they are mixed with different dialect groups.

WHEN YOU SAY NONE OF THEM BREAK DOWN THEIR ANCESTRIES?

Jackson Wang, on his wiki he is mentioned as paternally Hunan and maternally Shanghai, Henry Lau. Kpop star is mentioned father of Teochew ancestry and maternally Taiwanese

Besides only Hakka edit themselves in every individuals page. You won't see the same for Teochew, Cantonese, Shanghainese, Hokkien who erronously edit themselves as " a Hakka " everywhere. So what's the problem? we can set a example by editting for the rest.

Why can't we do the same? Why can't state accurate their proporpotion/ancestry? I have no problem with it. Are you a pure Hakka who wants to claim all mixed Hakka as being no different? isn't that the same as African American claiming every people are 1% to 100% Black- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 5:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

Like the example you gave on LHL, his individual wiki page highlight his different ancestries. Readers can always read from there. There is nothing to hide. I do not see Henry Lau maternal ancestry in Teochew people page. The point is that it is really unnecessary on the listing, but info can be put on their individual wiki page if readers wish to know more. If there is a listing on Singaporean, we would not have put his grandfather from China, grandmother from Indonesia, father from M'sia and mother from Thailand, but these info can be on their individual wiki pages. The Hakka listing should be based on the Chinese way, although it is Wikipedia English. Other cultures' standard should be respected.

Reply

Most Hakka believes themselves to be of pure Northern Chinese ancestry. How is it pure if you mixed with these Teochew, Hokkien, Cantonese ? and what if one day I choose to identify myself as mixed?

Hakka are a more mysterious group than the others so we deserve to mention our diverse heritage more so than others, our ancestors were Northern Chinese who mixed with South Chinese, we were historically discriminated and bullied by other Han groups, for sometime we weren't even considered of true Han. Let us let people know that there are still pure Hakka like my father. If by your logic, if a Hokkien women prostitute herself to a White man but she call herself a Hakka, is she still Hakka than ? that's disgusting.

The vast majority of Hakka are still born with 2 Hakka parents and claim to be full-Hakka.

Do not take these wikipedia so seriously. You seem to be extremely interested in these wiki editting (as anyone can see from your editting history ). 99.99999999% of the world's population did not see this page or even your edits.

CLICK HERE ------> http://stats.grok.se/ <-------- ( 2016 do not work, go look at 2015, 2014, 2013 ect

Type in " list of Hakka people " reacieves only 400 to 600 views a month ( from 2014 to 2015 only 10,000 views )

Type in " Hakka people " and I've calculated from it's it's 7 years of time, from 2008 to 2015 had recieved only 958,341 views. This means not only does 99.999999% of the world doesn't look at the page but even out of 100 million Hakka (even if were only Hakka people who clicked at the wiki page) it's only 0.9% of the Hakka population had looked on it . I MEAN I KNOW that you spend 9/10 of your time on wikipedia (which is clear to anyone who review your editting page but take it easy man. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 5:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

If you look at the List of Welsh people, even people who are perceived to be Welsh are included. They need not identify publicly that they are Welsh. Many may have English, Scottish, Irish or other ethnicities' ancestries, but none is mention on the listing.

Reply

Firstable, wikipedia had never been accurate. There's a lot of false information being editted and many wrong interpretations. People just pick what's written from articles and google books.

Like even the part where it edited " Hakka have a sigificant influence over the course of modern Chinese and world history ". To me this part makes feel proud to be Hakka, for some people it may feel exagerated. It would be better to say Chinese or or Overseas Chinese history, or Southeast Asia history or at least just mention Asian history but still I chose not to remove something that makes me feel proud. It's influence extend only on China, Overseas Chinese and Southeast Asia. Hakka however have no influence in North/East Asia ( Mongolia, Japan, North North Korea, South Korea, Siberia ).

For me, world history are people like Genghis Khan or Timurlane who conquered Europe, Middle east, South Asia. Or The Japanese innovations, inventions and it's history in world war II fighting against the world or other European colonial empires, the spread of Muslims religion by the Arabs, Indian Hindu, Egyptian civilization, Mesopatamia, Chinese civilization, Olmec civilization. Or the Asian and European inventions that changed our world or simply look at List of largest empires, that kind of thing. Hakka had some great leaders that influenced Chinese and oveseas Chinese + Southeast Asian. Hakka have little to no influence on the world.

Anyway I just clicked on many of the pages and don't even see most of them mentioning thesemlves bein Welsh let alone other ancestries. Nowhere as Hakka people mention themselves everywhere.

On the Japanese people wiki's page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_people , you won't even see people who are only 1/4 Japanese being listed on this page.

Again, I'm not asking you to remove anything. I just wish we can be as honest as possible. Perharps you would let me edit. " Even people of little to some Hakka ancestry/parent still identify as Hakka ".- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 6:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply The part about "Hakka have a sigificant influence over the course of modern Chinese and world history " was entered by somebody else. I had changed it to Overseas Chinese history previously, but after thinking about it, being leaders of nations do have an influence on world history. So I changed it back. You maybe right that the degree of influence may not be as great. I have just changed it to "overseas Chinese".

I do not agree with this " Even people of little to some Hakka ancestry/parent still identify as Hakka " as it is unnecessary. There is nothing untruthful about this, just that it is not necessary. The focus is on the particular dialect group. Other info can be on their individual wiki pages. Other listings do not have anything like this. Why don't you try to put the info in the Taishanese, Cantonese and Teochew people pages and see if others agree?

You can take a look at List of Jews, List of English people etc. If you do not think they are Welsh in List of Welsh people, you can highlight it there too.

Commonsense tells you it should be only Chinese or Asian history. World history extends to other nation ( colonian empire, inventions, religion, teachings ect ). What Hakka leaders had influenced on world history? maybe Lee Kuan Yew. But one or two is too little but even I don't know if you can call that world history.

Mongol Empire <--- that's world history,

Confucius <--- that's world history

Japanese in WW2 <--- that's world history.

Many Chinese inventions are part of world history for example; paper, gunpowder, printing, compass.

Why is not unncesarry? Is fact Lee Hsien Loong is only 1/4 or 1/8 Hakka. While I'm 1/2 Hakka while my father and my cousinss are pure-bred Hakka. There's a difference so why not acknowledged it. Or do you want to say Hakka and other Han Chinese groups are basically the complete same?

AT LEAST WHEN OTHER NON-HAKKA CHINESE LOOK AT OUR PAGE. We can say these people identify with us Hakka even when they have little of our ancestry. Besides many of your references(sources) I checked describes many of those individuals as having either Hakka ancestors but didn't say that they themselves identify with Hakka.

The list of Jews are different, many claim to be Jewish but are not ethnically Jewish. They may claim to be part of the Jewish group.

YOU REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND DO YOU ??????

It only mentions their nationality is Welsh

There are 34 different ethnic groups of Welsh. A Welish can be a African, Asian, Thai, Scottish, British, Indian ect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Welsh_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin

Ummm.... 95% of the people here I looked only describe their nationality as Welsh because they are born from there, is simple as that. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 6:54, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply Yes. LKY has an influence on world history. And China influences the world too, so the leaders of China have an influence. The part about Hakka identification or not is already on the criteria info. You can put your suggestion on the Taishanese, Cantonese and Teochew people pages. What is stopping you, right? ;) Have a good day/evening ahead!

Of course China had influenced the world with philosophy, inventions, teaching. But what had LKY influenced on? political? but the same would apply to Filipino, Burmese, Indonesian president and prime mininter. What about that persecuted Burmese female leader ? she even won a nobel prize for it. Does it make the Burmese people as world influence?

Firstable I'm not interested in the Taishanese, Cantonese, Teochew page and their page is nowhere as detailed and advanced like the Hakka. They don't have a fanatic-editor who spend 23 hours of their time on wiki pages. Perharps the fact you spend so much time on a wikipedia shows it reeks of inferiority complex (this is proven from the time of your each edits). I just want to mention Hakka include a lot of people who are not only pure but 50% Hakka like me. What about you ? perharps you're only 1/4 or less that's why you feel like this ( just a guess ). Anyway I do respect most of your edits but you you don't show any respect for my little edit which is based on fact anyway.

And let me just add this............................... I have never met a Singaporean and Malaysian Chinese who are only 1/4 or 1/8 Teochew, Cantonese, Beijinger, Shanghainese, Hokkien and identify themselves with such............. ONLY HAKKA DOES. The only people who identify with Hakka even when they are only at 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 as Hakka ( because of our history if persecution ). You don't see Europeans claiming Black people with 6-25% White ancestry but you see so many Black people (with their inferiority complex as slaves to white ) claiming White people when they have only 5-10% Black ancestry.

BY THE WAY LET ME SAY THIS .....................

.................. .

Before I started using wikipedia I had always believed that everything that stated in the Hakka page including all the information on the wikipedia pages was some sort of international factual data that was written directly by either the government or some sort university library of scholarship, or at least under some strict important supervision and monituring ( I had that kind of thinking ). Than I found out anyone can edit wikipedia, so it was dissapointing to know most of the stuffed editted turned out to be a few random individual. Like for example you Johnson103, you been using the wikipedia since 2014,recieves what warnings of being blocked from editting, and still don't know how to reply with signiture, still I respect most of your edits and contribution so don't give up and keep going on what you're going.

- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 7:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

On wikipages of Teochew, Hokkien, Taishanese, Cantonese

On the Teochew people and Hokkien people pages I edited those who are full blooded and partial in the prominent list. Surely some half to be 50% only

However in the Cantonese people page, looks very different from the one before it used to look and someone editted it's figures as Cantonese origin. I have no idea about Taishanese people. I have never in my life heard a Singaporean or Malaysian Chinese call himself Taishanese...... what the hell is that anyway? isn't that some like some sort of Cantonese sub-group? does a 1/2 Cantonese 1/2 Taishanese still count as mixed ?? they speak only a different variation of Cantonese which is the same as Hakka and Teochew speaking different variations. There's also Wu Chinese people which I know very little about other than fact they make up for most of the Shanghainese people.

I do not know any Teochew, Hokkien, Cantonese, Shanghainese that share only fractions of it's paternal ancestries ( 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 ) and still identify themselves the way Hakka does. Perharps you can give me some examples where a Teochew is only 1/4 Teochew but still identify as Teochew. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 8:41, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

On the contrary, I have tried to see from your points of view and edited accordingly. The only part that I cannot agree is the 1/8, 1/16 and so on partial ancestry thing. It may seem absurb in your eyes, but the majority (including young people) follow the traditional Chinese way. They are Hakka by identification more than by bloodline (this apply to all dialect groups). Take for example, LKY. He is paternal Hakka and maternal Peranakan/Hokkien. By virtue of his paternal Hakka ancestry, he will identify himself as Hakka (full/whole) but never Peranakan/Hokkien. At most, he will say he is half Peranakan/Hokkien (although in actual fact, he doesn't even state that). So, 1 on the paternal side and 0.5 on the maternal side do not add up to 1 (ie. whole) may seem funny, but the reason that they may say they are half Peranakan/Hokkien or Teochew or Cantonese for that matter, is that they can't identify themselves as full/whole because the ancestry is on the maternal side. When it come to LHL level (he too never state his maternal ancestry), his paternal ancestry is at the LKY level (higher levels can be disregarded) and LHL will identify himself as a (full/whole) Hakka, although by bloodline, he is only 1/8 Hakka.

Taishanese are a sub-group of Cantonese. Shanghaiese are a sub-group of Wu group which cover 3 provinces - Zhejiang, Jiangsu and Jiangxi. Only digging deeper will one know their maternal ancestry. Taking a quick glance at the other groups pages:- On Taishanese people page, Joyce Cheng has maternal Shanghaiese ancestry as her mother is Lydia Shum. Michelle Yim mother is Hakka. Arthur Chin is mixed. On Cantonese people page, Stephen Chow is paternal Shanghaiese (Wu). On Teochew people page, Charles Heung is Hoklo which is Hokkien. Fu Haifeng is Hakka.

'Reply'

Perharps you come from the old generation, many westernized Chinese including realists with some commonsense will know identifying with paternal ancestry when it has less than 50% of it's ancestry doesn't make sense.: LKY identifying with Hakka is commonsense. If he is 50% Hakka and from paternal than he is just like me. Obama father is Black Kenyan but mother is a pure White-American of mostly English ancestry. The world knows Obama is mixed.

I had removed Charles Heung and Fu Haifeng, if they have nothing to do with Teochew than they shouldn't be in the list

I also already know about Stephen Chow, Athur Chin. The previous page even mentioned his Stephen's father being Zhenjiang. Even though Stephen chow real ancesty was his grandfather being from Jiangsu but his mother is from Guangzhou,he should be 3/4 Cantonese in other words. In the previous page also mentioned Athur Chin as Cantonese father and Peruvian mother.

Someone removed a lot of detail and made it shorter from the old page. I don't wan't to make it any mistake so it's better you add something.

If you can find those with only 25%, 12.5%, 6:25% (not just 50% ) than I would even state " little to partial" for the other groups. I have never met any other Chinese who claim identify with only 1/4 of it's ancestry accept for Hakka.

I do not believe in this stupid Taishanese thing. I think it's just the same as claiming Shanghainese, Hong Kongese. Majority of the people of Shanghai and Hong Kong are Wu Chinese and Cantonese but doesn't mean all of them are Wu Chinese and Cantonese. Yao Ming is also Shanghainese but he comes non-wu speaking area. I checked on the Chinese wikipedia and there's no wiki page mentioning Taishanese people as some distinct group so it's properly just some guy from the English wiki who created it from out of stupidity. I think Taishanese only refer people who were born from Taishan. There's also a Category for Hong Kong people of Xinhuiese descent, I had checked on the Chinese wiki, there seems to be about 200-300 people of them not mentioned on the English wiki. I'm surprised so much celebrity come from Taishan and Xinhui. However the Xinhuinese itself is also a Taishanese sub-group which in turn it's a sub-group of Cantonese. So by this logic it is mentioning a sub groups within groups is extremely stupid if you ask me. A lot of people call themselves Hainanese people but they could be of Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka or other non-Han Chinese ethnic minorities.

I completely disagree with Shanghainese being described as a sub-group of Wu. What about Hong Kong people ? are they a sub-group of Cantonese than ? - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:49, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: We can't adopt a standard for hakka and another standard for other groups. Cantonese formed about 40% of HK population. Many are of mixed ancestry just that we may not know. This is because people seldom state their maternal ancestry. In chinese culture, your daughter in law become part of your family while your daughter become part of her husband family. Ma Sicong in Cantonese people is Hoklo. Taishanese in reality identified themselves separately from Cantonese because they have a big enough group in americas. This happen everywhere like the hockchias, hockchews, henghwas in spore but in taiwan, they are just categorized under minnan. Guangxi people is a separate dialect group in msia but they identified themselves as Cantonese as there are too few in spore. In reality, it is their own identifcation and what others perceived them to be.

Reply

The original inhabitants of Hong Kong were not Cantonese but in fact Hakka aswell as Hokkien, Tanka, Waitou people. Hong Kong should have been a oficially Hakka speaking instead since these standard Cantonese speakers were only just newcomers who were not native to Hong Kong. Actually on the Chinese Baidu site it states that Cantonese forms 60% of HK today's population, it was lower in the past. Could it be that all Hong Kong born/or raised Teochews, Hakka, Hokkiens identifies themselves with Cantonese....? they seem to be so Cantonized linguistically and culturally. I had met Hong Kong Hakka and Teochew in Singapore before and they always speak Cantonese to their families. I also used to listen to a lot of Cantonese songs. I can understand a lot of what they say but cannot speak it. I don't agree that they don't state their maternal ancestry. I've had stated everytime that my mother isn't Hakka but Cantonese/Teochew, and I know some Singaporeans who stated their mother came from mainland China.

Maybe Ma Sicong was in fact a Cantonese from Haifeng? I even know a Malaysian Cantonese who said his hometown was from Heifeng ( maybe it's just extremely rare and few but they do exist ). In the English wiki of Haifeng says only Hakka and Hoklo but than page has very little information, data. Clearly no one bothered to edit something more detail. I've also met a lot mainlander construction workers who were Guangdong Hoklo instead of Fujian Hoklo.

As for Taishanese people, it only refers to people who come from Taishan. It's not different to calling a Beijinger who comes from Beijing. I've never met one Singaporean, Malaysians or recent PRC mainland migrant who called himself Taishanese.... NEVER. Taishanese people may identify seperately from Cantonese in the same way Hong Kongese, Taiwanese, Shanghainese, Beijinger, Hainanese people identify seperately. I know people who's mother or father is Shanghainese but it doesn't mean Shanghainese comes from Wu Chinese. Beijingers speak Mandarin like most of China but Beijing is inhabited by many people of different provinces and dialect groups as swell. Beijinger is not a sub-group of some Mandarin people, it's just refers people born or identify as Beijing. And there are many leaders from Beijing is listed as Beijinger even when their origins are outside of Beijing.

Guangxi is home to 32% of ethnic minority Zhuang who are not of Han Chinese. The Cantonese live in eastern Guangxi, while the rest of Guangxi are Hakka, Hunanese Xiang, Yunnan Mandarin speakers. They speak western mandarin ( Sichuanese ) and Pinghua, and somekind of Cantonese dialect. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 7:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

HKers speak Cantonese does not mean they identify themselves as Cantonese. The British made Cantonese the official language of HK. Sporeans speak English, Mandarin and Hokkien but they could be Hakka, Teochew or Cantonese. Many outsiders thought Guangdong is synonymous with Cantonese but Cantonese only 40% of Guangdong province. In fact, later immigrants to HK are from the north. Jackie Chan is Shandong. Jacky Cheung is Tianjin etc etc. Chief Executives Tung Chee Hwa is shanghaiese, Leung Chun Ying is shandong. Famous tvb actor raymond lam still speak fluent hokkien. Type this in youtube to see -> 林峰在厦门的访问说闽南语 Ma Sicong is unlikely to have Cantonese ancestry, just like you do not find a Hakka from meixian or dabu having cantonese ancestry. Haifeng only have hoklo who live in the more city/town areas and hakkas who live in the more mountanous areas.

Reply

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW ? they may identify strongly as being Cantonese speakers especially when they are Hong Kong born or raised, unlike people like Lam Fung who are recent mainland migrant but even he calls himselfs Hong Konger many times and properly already fully- assimilated into the Cantonese identity. Trust me on this, I had plenty of arguements with these people and they all have a strong connection with protecing Cantonese and glorify it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_people

" Hong Kong culture is highly Cantonese-influenced. Cantonese is the most popular language in both everyday and formal conversations, as well as in the media and education[15] Members of other Han Chinese groups in Hong Kong (such as Hakka People, Hoklo (Hokkien), Shanghainese, and Teochew) who are Hong Kong-born or raised often assimilate into the mainstream Cantonese identity[16] of Hong Kong. For example, the children of immigrants typically adopt Cantonese as their first language even if their parents' is not.'

Even among Hong Kong mainland migrants you have anti-China radicals like Edward Leung who was born from the Central China of Wuhan but talk about protecing Cantonese and kicking out all the mainland Chinese colonist who migrated since 2010's. I can even find you videos of Hong Kong Hakka activist or radio speakers insulting all Chinese people as scums and promoting Cantonese and traditional characters. Other's like Wong Yuk Man and Wong Yeunt Tat , who are both Teochew and Hokkien, they are very anti-China and anti-Chinese tourist and promotes Cantonese fanatically. The HK Hakka and Teochew people I've met always emphasized themselves as being Hong Kong people and always click more with Cantonese speakers and prefer Cantonese cuisine. If you want proof I can show you. Even on overseas, these HK born, raised, recent migrants still stick with Cantonese stuff. When it comes to Chinese materials my mother and I personally prefer watching Cantonese stuff rather than Mandarin. I don't know if that has to do with the fact mother is 50% Cantonese or me being only 25% although my father who is pure Hakka sometimes watches TVB aswell.

You have to understand that 99.99% of the world's population does not care about if you're Cantonese, Hakka, Teochew, Hokkien ect. I had told foreigners that I'm a Singaporean Hakka and they no idea. So when I meet non-Chinese when I go overseas I would just tell people that I'm a Singaporean. Even most of the mainland Northern Chinese have no idea what is a Hakka. The rest of the world look at you as either belonging as China people , Singaporeans, Hong Konger, Malaysian Chinese, Taiwanese, ABC or BBC. I don't want to sound negative but just speaking facts and quite dissapointed with this result. I had looked at the Hakka page or Teochew, Cantonese page and I though they would at least recieve 60-100 million views ( my estimate ) http://stats.grok.se/ <---- add up all the monthy views together of " Hakka people " and all you get is 958,345 views. So not only do 99.99% of the population does not care but even if all views all came from the Hakka people ( who have 80 million population ) is only a tiny fraction of the percentages of Hakka people who clicked/and viewed it.

Jackie Chan is now changed to Anhui. His paternal ancestor is from Shangdong from thousand years ago but now he is changed to Anhui. Jacky Cheung father is Tianjin and mother is from Shanghai but. The fact remains they are Hong Kong. If they din't have the reputation and distinveness as being Hong Kong people the Japanese would never welcome them to Japan since 91% hate Chinese. All the famous Chinese celebrities in Japan from 80's to 90's were of Hong Kong origin while none came directly from China. If Jackie chan and Jacky Cheung were from China they still be calling the Chinese people as dogs, pigs, shina people. I sometimes wondered why Hong Kong celebrity was so welcomed in Japan even though they were just a city state within China. I think it has to do with the fact they spoke Cantonese, with their own government, flag which gave them a distinveness charateistic from the rest. Singapore, even though are not connected to mainland China have no culture, no cultural export and contributed basically nothing, so you won't find any person from S.Korea, Japan who can name a actor/singer from Singapore because there are no famous people.

As for Ma Sicong, unlikely clearly not impossible. If he was born in Fujian than yes but he is born only in central/east Guandong, like only a few miles away from Cantonese speakers. Are you telling it's impossible to find Cantonese people living in Meixian and Haifeng when there are Cantonese people all the to Australia, America, South America?? I'm sure many dialect groups live in different parts of China why is that surprising when there even isolated cases of Chinese born in central Africa????? besides the Haifeng wiki page is not detailed enough, it's basically a empty page with few description- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 04:49, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

The young in HK are not happy with high housing prices, etc. They are anti-status quo more than anti-China. Their parents have no choice to swtich to Cantonese because it is used in school and everyday life.

So far, have not seen a Meixian Hakka with Cantonese ancestry. Almost impossible. Haifeng Hoklo people migrated there from Fujian http://www.ifuun.com/a201641515634/

On Cantonese People page, the criteria used - "The following notable figures are regarded as being of Cantonese origin:" would have covered all the HK people based on your definition. We are really using 2 extreme standards.

I thought you wanted to promote Chinese unity.

Reviewed your description again, I have taken out "even when they share little to partial of it's ancestry" as this is covered under "different degress of ancestry"

Reply

Regardless, they are very strong with the Hong Kong identity and they think Cantonese is the cultural marker for Hong Kong idendity. The latest statistic shows only 20% of Hong Kong people idendify themselves as Chinese and only 14% if you include only Hong Kong youth.

I don't know about the Cantonese page. I've never been interested in looking any other dialect groups except for Hakka. I don't know if Ma Sicong is Cantonese or not but it doesn't seem impossible. Maybe his Cantonese family moved to Haifeng? maybe there are still hundreds of Cantonese family left ?

I strongly suggest you keep little to partial ancestry. I don't want people to think we are so pathetic that we even include those who share only tiny/little/small fraction of their blood with Hakka, this kind of crap only works on the inferior complex African American and Filipino, we Hakka don't need such insecure nonsense. Other sees the page and and later find out these Hakka celebrities (on articles or websites ) we listed they are in fact only 6 - 25% Hakka, others will mock us. I will definatelt remove the " little to some of it's ancestry " until you find me Teochew/Cantonese/Hokkien claiming those 1/4 , 1/8 , 1/16 as their own. I have not seen any other Chinese group who does this other than Hakka who does ( including the inferior complex African Americans and Filipino ). When speaking of degree they usually think 40%, 50%, 75%. Lee Hsien Loong is only 25% or 12.5% Hakka. He is what is he is and I'm proud of it. He claims to be Hakka so he is Hakka but the majority of the people in your list, there's proof that most of them claim to be Hakka other than some people claiming they have Hakka ancestry and so include them as one of their own.

I do want to promote Chinese unity but this is extremely hard. I just don't want the Hakka race to be embarrased. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 08:37, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: Since you watch tvb, you must have watch the hakka/cantonese variety show http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDE5MDUzNDYw.html?x If you look at the historical figures under cantonese page, just because they are from guangdong, they are presumed to be cantonese. They could be hakka teochew hoklo hainanese etc as well. Isn't this more embarassing?

That was the only Hakka thing that came out of Hong Kong. I think it was 3-5 years ago I watched it?.

I'm not so much into Chinese stuff. I used to watch a lot TVB dramas. Now I'm just watching the Walking dead ( zombies and horrors ) you should check it out it's horrifying.

I think we are taking this too seriously or better said overestimating it. For many people, this Hakka, Teochew, Hoklo, Hainanese identity are nothing but more a whole lot of garbage and also don't even get any promotion. Maybe if there was a Hakka nation or a Hakka cultural hub people will give a damn. The truth is I've not met any Hakka ( except me ) who publicly called himself Hakka to the non-Chinese people. To other Singaporeans they may sometimes say Hakka but to a non-Chinese or even a mainland PRC they will just usually call themselves Singaporeans. When I make friends with a westerner, Indian, Japanese, Korean I'll just call myself Singaporean because nobody knows what the hell is a Hakka is. and the fact that this page " Hakka people " page recieves only 900,000+ and the " List of Hakka people " http://stats.grok.se/ receives only 400-800 views shows 99.9999999999% of the population don't give a crap even among Hakka people only a tiny fraction of percentages had read the page ( or maybe not, I sometimes click pages that I don't read 90% of the time because it's too much data ).

So take it easy and just be honest. You're focusing too much on a page where only a few people are viewing - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 09:11, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply:

Take a look at Julius Chan under cantonese people page Google under "julius chan pictures" What do you think his percentage is?

Reply:

50%, His father is Chinese. I would have edit on this full and partial ancestry like I did with Hokkien and Teochew. But because someone had changed the Cantonese people completely I don't want to do anything. So you do the edit. Besides who give a crap about these Cantonese or any other han group. On the http://stats.grok.se/ Cantonese people gets only roughly 400,000 views in the last 8 years.

Can you answer why are you so obessed with wikipedia? I checked on your edits and like 95%+ of them are basically all to do with Hakka. No matter how we promote the Hakka wiki pages views are insigificant in the end. Maybe you should upload more stuff in youtube instead- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 09:24, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: His father could also be mixed. In teochew people page, the thailand prime ministers are also dark complexioned. To answer your question, it is because such information are easily available in chinese as there are many contributors from china Taiwan hk but not so in english. I try so that english readers can have a better understanding. There used to be a linguist from hk who contributed a lot but he gave up after his efforts were removed. I do not spend that much time alhough it may give that impression.

Reply:

I don't know, you're just guessing.

Who wouldn't have a dark complexion when Thailand is famous for his hot climate and beaches.

Why are you so concern on the wiki pages of other Han-sub groups. Do you think we are in some sort of competition with other Chinese ? the fact is 99.5%+ of Hakka people don't even give a crap. Most of them like all other Singaporeans Chinese are just focusing on dating a girlfriend, having a nice holiday, spending a good time. The timing of your edits since 2014 suggest to me you have a lot of spare time. Only a few idiots are debating/challanging themselves on forums but the truth is they are just losers who have no girlfriends. I already said before that Chinese are the sick of Asia, even among Korea and Japan they have many different dialect groups but you don't see them fighting among themselves while we Southern Chinese have this history.- 223.27.194.66 (talk) 09:50, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: I am not concern about other groups as I do not edit them even if the info there are wrong. I gave examples because you asked me to. Isn't that so?

Reply:

But you didn't give me any examples of other Han subroups with only 1/4, 1/8, 1/16. You keep showing me the halfies ( 1/2 ) one.

And as In this book it mentions Ma Sicong being Cantonese ( maybe he is Cantonese, I already said I know a Malaysian Chinese who was Cantonese and claim his hometown is from Haifeng )

" The very first Chinese soloist to play with the SMO was a 17-year-old Cantonese violinist named Ma Sicong — the older brother of Ma Sihong "

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PxzNLwDPP0EC&pg=PA121&dq=Ma+sicong+Cantonese&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwichISL-o7NAhXGA8AKHa0fBJcQ6wEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=Ma%20sicong%20Cantonese&f=false - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 10:06, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: The list of people on their individual pages do not state their maternal ancestry. They could be 1/8 or 1/16. Such info are not easily available.

Hakkas tend to marry other ethnicities because they are a more diaspora group esp to countries like jamaica, suriname, etc. Those days fewer women ventured so far.

You will not be able to find similar info for ma sicong in chinese because english writers tend to assume guangdong is cantonese.

You will not be able to find similar info for ma sicong in chinese because english writers tend to assume guangdong is cantonese.

Reply:

How old are you? and what is your percentage of Hakka ancestry? you keep saying we don't state our maternal ancestry.... do you deny you mother side? I know Chindian born to Indian father and Chinese mother ( Teochew, Hakka ) always state their maternal ancestry as Chinese. The Indians don't accept them as true Indians. I've seen half Malay and Half Chinese who do look very Chinese though but they always state their father or mother is Malay. I always tell people I speak some Cantonese because my mother and grandmother is part Cantonese. And I sometimes them people that I also have Teochew in me. I can't deny my other ancestry like many people.

The vast majority of Hakka are still born with two Hakka parents. You make it sound like pure Hakka have been extinct and all mixed. This is absolutely wrong.

Sichuan is place where Wu-Speakers don't exist. But Fala Chen, TVB actress and Chinese-Canadian miss internationa pargeant is in fact of Zhenjiang origin. By your logic she is not a Sichuanese even if she may identify as one. The point is even in Sichuan there are few people with Zhenjiang ( Wu-speaking ) ancestry but there is no data about any Wu-speaking living in Sichuan, and also Zhenjiang is far apart from Sichuan, in fact it's even faster for Zhenjiang to reach Japan and Korea than to Sichuan and you think it's impossible that Ma Sicong is Cantonese even though he's born in the central/east Guandgdong province.. who are like only few miles away next to Cantonese speaker. Besides the demographic on that time is 1912 when Ma Sicong was born would be different, that's after the Xinhui revolution, maybe his parents moved to Haifeng before or after the first Guangzhou uprising. 223.27.194.66 (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: What I meant is if the maternal ancestry are stated, why is it that the info are not easily available? I am hakka on both sides.

Reply:

If you're Hakka on both sides than you must understand how we mixed one feels. Maybe the old generation would strictly identify on the paternal but new generation are waking up to reality. If someone insult my father's ancestry I will defend it, and if someone insults my mother's ancestry I too will defend it even if it's against Hakka. I was raised by mother more than by my father even though we live together everyday. How can I deny my maternal side, you tell me.

Did you know the founder of the Tang dynasty Li Yuan emperor was 1/2 Half Han Chinese (paternal) and mother is Xianbei ( maternal ). The Xianbei are a Mongolic nomadic group who conquered Northern China for 1000+ years. And Lee Shi Min also known as Emperor Taizong of Tang, the greatest Chinese emperor of all time was in fact 1/4 Han Chinese and 3/4 Xianbei. They identify as Han but always mentioned their mothers being Xianbei and in all Chinese historic books mention them not being true Chinese, their toughness was due to their Xianbei side. On their wiki is also mentioned they were maternally Xianbei.

And by the way Ma sicong spoke Cantonese " 马思聪用广东话告诉他：“我想在今年秋天回去 ". ------source《中共禁止的歷史》. I personally don't give a crap if Ma Sicong is Cantonese or not, I just want to say that it's possible for anyone to be born from anywhere and at any place. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:03, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: Ma speaking cantonese will be like other hakkas and teochews in guangdong being able to speak cantonese. He was at one time wrongly labelled as hakka because he was from haifeng. You are right that people can be born anywhere and ma is of no importance, but just like to point out that unless there is evidence, listing them will be embarassing, right?

Reply:

Until there's further proof let's not remove it. There's no book/articles I searched that mention he speaks Hokkien or any other dialect but there is many books/articles that mentions him speaking Cantonese.

WEL WELL WELL....................... He actually listed as Cantonese people along with other Cantonese from General Books LLC, 2010

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xzDVbwAACAAJ&dq=ma+sicong+cantonese+people&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbhPumkI_NAhWIAsAKHf2zCBwQ6wEIHTAA - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:36, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply: The above book took its source from wikipedia. Just want to point out that we using 2 very different criteria for different groups. It is like a person is guilty until there is evidence to prove he is innocent. And an African looking julius chan has no info on his non chinese ancestry, not to talk about no mention of partial ancestry which you insisted. Thaksin and Yingluck are still fair skinned although they have a thai maternal grandma. The dark skinned thai PMs in teochew page could be 1/16 or 1/32 or 1/64. We can't simply brush it aside with hot weather as a reason. And although historical characters like wen tianxiamg and yue fei came from hakka speaking areas, it was almost 1000 years ago, nobody know if they are hakkas or not. It will be embarassing to list historical characters. Ma Ying-jeou ancestor is hakka, speak fluent hakka and identified himself as hakka but we can't list him just for glory sake because there are hakkas who do not recognized him. Same for Deng Xiaoping who may or may not be hakka although books like to list him as hakka.

:Reply

In English sources it claims Ma sicong as Cantonese and in Chinese sources it claims he speaks Cantonese. I cannot find anything else about him being non-Cantonese other than the fact he is born in a place populated by Hoklo and Hakka. The only thing doesn't make him seem cantonese is the Englisk wikipedia doesn't mention Cantonese from Haifeng but than again there's also no data of Wu-Chinese living in Sichuan yet we have people like Fala Chen who was born from Sichuan. Her origins is from Zhenjiang ( Wu-speaking people ). The truth is I've met a Malaysian Cantonese who once said his hometown was Haifeng and that contributes to my believe he could very well be Cantonese. Is really far more believable for a Cantonese from central/east guangdong to migrate to central/west guangdong, than a Teochew mainlander who told me he was born from Shanghai but with a Teochew father and Shanghainese mother. Perharps there's Cantonese living in Haifeng but they are so small, so insigicant to mention on the census. Perharps there is 50-200 living in Haifeng.

Julius Chan is not African, he is of Melanesian origin. His father is from Taishan. There's no much data on him so putting him as Cantonese is no problem. Unless you can find more data.

I only want to include " People with little to some Hakka ancestry but may and may not identify as Hakka " FOR TWO REASONS. One, being 100% honest and realistic to anyone who may have problem with Hakka. If we have non-Hakka people who complain about us being so insecure to claim so many historical figures and celebrities as our own (even when they are tiny/measle fractions ) they have to shut up anyway nor can they call us insecure. Two, is they also can't remove anyone from the Hakka list because we already stated very clearly " even people with little to some Hakka ancestry but may or many not identify as one". Basically is telling everywhere that we ourselves are aware they share different level of Hakka ancestry and we aren't ignorant about it. And we do not claim every person as our own, it's they who claim to be Hakka. And if there's any mistake on the people in our list being included as Hakka we also already stated " may not claim to be Hakka " just in case.

You see I have no problem with Ma Ying Jeou claiming to be one of us. If he idendity as Hakka than we should let him. However we should also be realistic by mentioning he just has a Hakka ancestor. There's a huge difference between a person who only have a Hakka ancestor from thousand years ago to a Hakka who have 2 or 1 parents. Maybe one day he changes his mind and doesn't want to be Hakka after being rejected by Hakka, but even if changes his mind we don't need to remove him from the list becaus we already said " people who share Hakka ancestry but may not identify as one ". So keep that part just in case some of the famous people on our list one day's changes their mind not being Hakka, it also helps stopping anyone who may think wrongly about us. I myself don't like that kind of behaviour anyway. I had told of the African Americans and Filipinos many times that how insecure they are by claiming people with only 1-25% ancestry as their own, it certainly makes them look pathetic and delusional so I don't want the same for us Hakka. - 223.27.194.66 (talk) 11:19, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

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ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Johnson103. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Indian people of Hakka descent

A tag has been placed on Category:Indian people of Hakka descent requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:17, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Macau people of Hakka descent

A tag has been placed on Category:Macau people of Hakka descent requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:19, 21 September 2019 (UTC)