User talk:J Greb/Archive Dec 2008

Orphaned non-free media (Image:RiddlerGA.JPG)

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Something I missed about mid Nov...

I just ran across what you had added to Category:Wonder Woman around the 14th or so.

I understand that you were trying to clear some stuff out of other categories, but...

The long standing convention from the CfDs of similar categories was that they aren't supposed to be used for:

• Supporting characters;
• Foes; and
• Team members (not really relevant here, I know...)

Titular character are the only exemption that was conceded (hence 4 character articles under Flash).

At least 11 of the character article currently in the cat fall under those groups. And 4 others are varying stretches of the "titular" character — Artemis of Bana-Mighdall and Hypolita who headlined Wonder Woman for a period and Donna Troy and Wonder Girl (Cassie Sandsmark) since each character was portrayed as Wonder Woman for a period. The latter two I'm wary of since Donna was a "place holder" for 52 and Cassie's turn was an "alternate timeline/future version".

- J Greb (talk) 19:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Fictional character categories (especially concerning "in-universe" inclusion criteria) may or may not be as "clear-cut" as you've defined above.

Personally, I'm currently of the perspective that most (if not all) such categories should be listified, and shouldn't be categories.

But that aside, after nominating several dozen such categories, the "general consensus" seems to be "no consensus" (defaulting to keep), with the trend leaning towards delete. (With appeal to emotion ones, like "holocaust survivors" resulting in "keep".)

I've had a much longer discussion with Hiding, and more recently, with Emperor, regarding this. If we can find some sort of consensus at the Comics project to restrict this sort of categorisation as WP:OC, I think that that would be a positive step.

So anyway, with that in mind, as far as Category:Wonder Woman, having a few characters who are exclusively associated with a protagonist (like Alfred with Batman), doesn't seem like a huge problem category-wise, and is worth overlooking, at least for now, if it can help reduce other category bloat.

My next step was/is to create a category for DC's Amazons, similar to DC's Atlanteans, which should help.

All that aside, I obviously welcome your further thoughts on this. (And I'll also note that I believe that there are still fictional character categories under discussion at CfD.) - jc37 22:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think that cats like Wonder Woman or Category:X-Men fit in with the "Fictional <profession>" or like category "families".

Part of what I was referencing came out of the CfDs that have run on "<Foo's> foes", "<Foo's> supporting characters", and "<Team/Title character>" categories over the past 2 or so years.

Within those narrow groups, adding the character articles was held up as:

• Unwieldy (most of Marvel's characters would be catted as "Avengers" for example)
• POV ("foes/opponents/antagonists/rivals" and "supporting cast" being gutted out of hand on that)
• Overly fluid ("Do team members cycle in and out of the cat or not?")
• And open to OR (Defining opponents as part of a "team/title character" cat or arguing for a loosely linked, or linked-by-fan-spec-only, character be added to a cat.)

I'm not adverse to seeing the characters in some of this narrow group of cats. As you point out, the ones that have an "exclusive association" with a title character makes a degree of sense, but it's something that needs to be watched closely to avoid glutting the cats with the "not-so-exclusively-related", let alone the "fought-'em-once" or "fans-assume-a-link-here", cases.

- J Greb (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I'd honestly like to see these all listified/deleted. Too much WP:OR, too little actual sourcing involved, (never mind whether those sources are WP:V, WP:RS, etc.)

Anyway, as to your points...

I'm not sure what you meant in reference to "profession" or "families".

There have been a lot of nominations. I'm not sure, but I think most of the "in-universe" subcats of Category:Fictional characters have been nominated. Most that still exist fall under what I mentioned above. They were either "appeal to emotion" cats, such a Holocaust, or HIV; or "no consensus" (noting that a few which resulted in "keep", were noted by the closer upon further questioning that they were actually "no consensus", but they said that "it didn't matter", since they were to be "kept" anyway...)

And yes, I was there for those noms too. (And still strongly disagree with the GLC and LSH ones.)

But to be fair, it could be argued that consensus concerning some of these may have changed. (Though not much that I see.) So I'm taking past discussions with a grain of salt.

I think what we need is a discussion of whether, in general, categorising fictional characters by "in-universe" information is overcategorisation. Though considering that the bulk of the categories which have been deleted, this is likely already true.

And yes, it's rather easy to see how these could be abused, especially for villains.

Would you be up for starting/joining in a discussion at the Comics WikiProject concerning the categorisation of fictional characters, as a start? - jc37 09:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Fictional <profession>" refers to categories like "Fictional police officer", "Fictional pilot", and "Fictional criminals". "Like category 'families'" refers to category groups like "Fictional African-Americans", "Fictional giants", and "Fictional robots". It's how I see most of the categories that get attached to the character articles breaking down: 2 "in-story" broad groups - "Fictional characters by 'profession'" and "Fictional characters by aspect" - and the "real world" group.

And you're right, since consensus can change, it would be a good idea to revisit at least the "<Team/title character>" categories starting at the Project level. That would at least get a few voices involved in deciding how to set limits on what goes into the cats.

- J Greb (talk) 11:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I meant that I didn't understand how profession/families applied to whatever point you were making : )

But I think your follow-up helped clarify.

To me, the "in-universe" cats seem to fall under: personal association, personal attribute, and personal experience.

And in case I may miss it, please drop me a note concerning any discussions concerning this. - jc37 22:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Creator's year of birth

Just filling in Paul Ryan (comics) I noticed that when only the yob is added it doesn't display in the date of birth field, although it does automatically make the category. Just thought you might want to know. (Emperor (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC))

That's deliberate. It made the coding a little easier to assume that only full dates would trigger the auto complete for both birth and death. Any variation - such as year only, debated, or referenced - would just be inserted into the "birthdate" field as an over ride. - J Greb (talk) 01:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Teamtitans6.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Spider-man new-animated-series-season-1.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Static 20.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Virgil 06.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Wonder Woman 275 part.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Goblinani.png)

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Fresh eyes...

No you seem to have been doing just fine. Seems the penny has dropped by the time I looked it over or I'd have warned them about 3RR. It does look like the other user has a history of image-related problems and I wonder if there is something that could be done to stop this happening time and again, as it would save a lot of time (quite a bit of it yours) if they actually worked within the rules. (Emperor (talk) 01:04, 8 December 2008 (UTC))

I think the frustrating thing is that I'm trying to play nice. Hence the boilerplate template and leaving it there on the talk page for 30+ days before removing the images. But nope, it's only the images getting yanked that gets a rise out of anyone...

(sigh) I'm going to drop my 2-ish¢ on the animation and vid-game images tomorrow...

- J Greb (talk) 05:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Agentliberty.gif)

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A drawing as a creator's infobox image

Just saw this an admin add an image to Stewart McKenny that had been submitted/validated by the OTRS but I was wondering what the policy was on that - I'm sure I've seen it come up elsewhere. (Emperor (talk) 01:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

Off the top of my head drawings are ok if...

• The person depicted is dead. (same as any non-free image)
• There is a very, very strong likelihood that the person will not allow a photo to be taken, free or non-free. (I think there's one in the NFC Creators image cat that is an example of this, though the name escapes me...)
• It's a place holder and the bio watchdogs let it alone.
• It's a self portrait that the artist has released to the PD and it does indeed resemble him/her. (I think there's an image up for Cho that fails this miserably...)

And with BLP for non-celebs, which covers the majority of comics creators, I think the person can specifically ask that photos not be used on privacy grounds.

- J Greb (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

OK thanks - seems to tick the box of #4. There are some poor photos, like Ashley Wood, but in that case he is really against having a photo and that is the only one he'd approve - I suppose if the offer was on the table that they could add a self-portrait that might be an improvement on what we have (at least you might stand a chance of recognising him from it if you met him). The Nick Abadzis article had a self-portrait but someone has clearly got a better photo and moved the self-portrait down the page.

As a side issue I was also wondering about "graphical frills" being added. The new one at Al Ewing is actually a better photo for identifying him (the previous one had him in character, possibly another issue - presumably fancy dress is a bad idea too) but has an odd target drawn on it (I assume it was added by him, but I could see something like that could be a BLP-style issue if it was thought it could be some weird threat). (Emperor (talk) 02:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

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68.209.168.216

I'd assume so, after the first few, i just rolled back. I don't have the fancy buttons, and wanted to clean up the damage fast. (correction, all his comics edit, yeah. I know he added categories to two actors, but didn't see him substantiate them, i left them in though, but a WP:BLP reversion might be in order) ThuranX (talk) 12:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Savage/Nobel

Just curoius why you think Savage/Noble isn't a dragon or werewolf? Mathewignash (talk) 02:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I could see the Werefolf thing, but he isn't a ROBOT, he's an organic alien who shapeshifts from a humanoid wolf to a dragon form. That was what was unusual about him, he had once been a transformer. I guess you could call him an alien or "genetic chimera", but he's isn't a robot. Mathewignash (talk) 06:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

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More "New for the Sake of New" images

You intervened on the issue of the NftSoN Green Goblin image but the same user has been doing a run of these (as well as, I should add, a similar number of images for infoboxes that needed one) and I was going to revert the lot but thought I should fire them over to you first to check out: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] and [7]. I'll be happy to set the images back if you think it is warranted (as I know you are fighting the bots) but given the number I didn't want to start running through them without you looking them over.

Also I see the user has an awful lot of image deletion (and similar) notices on their talk page - similar to the case discussed above. This may be the natural consequence of uploading so many NftSoN images but is there any way to address this? I have been pondering a more informal guide to writing a good comics article (to run alongside and draw together WP:CMC/X and WP:CMC/EG with tips and tricks and general advice editors have picked up from years of doing this to help new editors avoid the more obvious pitfalls and would a section on the infobox help some (we can never counter the "over-enthusiasm" of some editors, of course). Or we could expand the exemplars page but it might be best to keep this focused, tight and more formal.

Looking at the Thunderbolts image I actually think the previous one was also just NftSoN and suspect an earlier classic line-up would be best so it looks like we need a broader discussion - I suspect there are too many images on the page (see brief discussion from a year and a half ago on the talk page) so it may need a couple of discussions on the image use on that article. Thoughts? (Emperor (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC))

Just going over these 7...

Hardball is a pain since the old image minimized the character. I'm not thrilled by the replacement.. the focus is awkward (and that's being kind) and it's a pair shot.

Gauntlet can get flipped back... the new isn't an improvement on the old.

Gorilla-Man is the similar, but more of change for the sake of change.

Emma Frost is a poster case for "And this is new!!!!!" even though it's par for all her costumes.

Thunderbolts is similar to what's going on with Marauders. And almost all the team articles that have had rotating casts. No one image is going to fit the infobox bill, and there's a real possibility that by NFC the "roster images" will get pared down to one only, regardless of the image contents.

Warpath is a putting a an image that doesn't put the focus on the character into the 'box.

And Cloud 9 is again "It's NEW!!!!"

Of the lot, I'd leave Hardball, flip the rest, and leave Moshikal another "Please don't change infobox images just for "New image" or "Minor/transient costume changes."

I'd also double check the images themselves and the web links he'll have used. He's been real bad for just copying the template across his uploads, only changing the comic, artist, and article. This tends to leave a web page as the source that doesn't have the image on it. (I'm real close to deleting those out of hand as copyvio...)

I'd also be tempted to tag the Thunderbolts to try and get a discussion going about replacing the multitude of "And the roster is..." images.

- J Greb (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Righto - images reverted, message left and I've started the discussion on the Thunderbolts images: Talk:Thunderbolts (comics)#Image Problems. I think I have picked a core of images that will actually also be useful.

I'll doublecheck the image they have uploaded in case something has gone wrong (but I have the pages on my watchlist, so if there is a problem I've overlooked I should be able to spot it). (Emperor (talk) 02:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC))

Rampage (Marvel Comics)

Apparently, there's an ip hopper who keeps making the same nonsensical edits to this page. Can you semi-protect it again? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Much appreciated ;) Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Justice Lords.jpg)

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206.248.248.221

You might wanna take a look into this anon's edits. (S)he is apparently slapping down categories without checking to see if the article's context supports it. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah... the "private military" cat... Actually may be a cat that nees CfDing to stop the problem... any superhero/villain team could wind up fitting that... - J Greb (talk) 01:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I leave the cfd to you I guess. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

My edits

No! My edits are correct. --24.172.64.66 (talk) 06:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Hellblazer

I noticed you deleted the Hellblazer category. I assume you'll do the same for The SandmanCategory:The Sandman?

Sheriff Bernard (talk) 22:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

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Series/Metaseries infobox

Looks good. As well as the one-shot, limited/ongoing series fields could we have "anthology"? This would then allow the titles field to be for the anthology it was published in. It might also be worth having a "graphic novel" field as some (like Locke and Key and possibly Dreadstar or something else I can't put my finger on) have been published as limited and ongoing and stories in an anthology and graphic novels. I'll have another think on this and see if anything else occurs to me. (Emperor (talk) 15:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC))

One of the things I was looking at adding was a "Reprints" section, or repurposing the "Collected edition section. (Thing about V for Vendetta here: Reprints would be the bulk of the DC mini and the TPB.)

I'm fence sitting on the with the categories... and that includes removing some of the genre options and the logicals for the formats.

The idea here, or at least the one I'm running on, is to have an infobox for articles on two types of comics series: one where the story is published in multiple, similarly titles comic books (American style, released either concurrently or consecutively), and the other where the story is published as a multi-part strip in a comics magazine (British/European style). The first ignores story lines ("Batman R.I.P") and self contained titles (Superman). The second may wind up ignoring strips that are regularly converted into Graphic novels or Albums, or at least not used for the articles on those story lines.

That basic premise makes it hard to justify putting the the article into the "<Company/Nationality> publications/titles/limited series/one shot" categories as well as the "Debuts" and genre cats since the articles are about with a collections of publications or something that is a small section of a publication. And with that, the purpose for the format flags is lost and that field becomes a free form notation of the number and types of publication formats. (Such as "5 limited series, 4 one shots, 1 Graphic novel, and 1 ongoing series" or "A strip running through 3 magazines".)

And with the genres, "Anthology" is one of the tags I really cannot see applying... most of what would wind up using the 'box would be single focus series/strips. Or am I missing something there? - J Greb (talk) 00:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Been doing a little tweaking to the template... and put up an example of where its currently at here... - J Greb (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

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Stop your actions immediately!!

User J. Greb, please stop reverting my edits, this constitutes harrassment and is also vandalism. Please stop or your actions will be reported to an administrator.--24.172.64.66 (talk) 06:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Comic book publisher

The infobox doesn't seem to be generating the category Category:Comic book publishers (people), see e.g. Marc Silvestri. Cheers. (Emperor (talk) 05:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC))

Didn't realize we had one specifically for individuals when adding the auto catting, so I bypassed it. I'll see about adding that after work today. - J Greb (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

And that cat should be working now with the "publish" field. - J Greb (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Regarding 24.172.64.66's reverts

Seems this one just won't stop. There's no point in rollbacking anymore. What are your suggestions? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Better source request for File:BatmanAliens.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:BatmanAliens.jpg. You provided a source, but it is difficult for other users to examine the copyright status of the image because the source is incomplete. Please consider clarifying the exact source so that the copyright status may be checked more easily. It is best to specify the exact web page where you found the image, rather than only giving the source domain or the URL of the image file itself. Please update the image description with a URL that will be more helpful to other users in determining the copyright status.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source in a complete manner. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page or me at my talkpage. Thank you. Rockfang (talk) 10:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppetry?

Seems 24.172.64.66 (or similar) decided to create an attack account, JJoseph145 (talk · contribs · logs). Look closefully at this user's edits. Mostly inexplicable reverts and deletion of content. BTW, did you happen to catch this? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Now there's another one, YoBaby'smama (talk · contribs · logs). You're sure these aren't so obvious? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Moshikal

No that seems perfectly reasonable - by a fluke of timing I was just checking out the Ms. Marvel page and was trying to find out who had dropped the ball so seriously, as the image had obscured the whole page (at least it meant I upgraded the infobox). I suspect this is all overdue - I haven't had many dealings with them but it is clear they are ignoring image use guidelines (despite various people trying to point them out) and quite a few people have ended up wasting a lot more time fixing the mess left by this specific user than a more blatant vandal and there is no sign they have taken anything on board. A ban might help make them realise they need to take on board the advice that has been given to them. Fingers crossed. (Emperor (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

Anarky

Especially as they had previously edited the article in question [8]. Note that not only did I link to it from that discussion but at the same time I went through all his recent creations and gave them the once over finding a lot to be lacking [9]. Seems like someone is making a point.

Also can you tell where they odd red linked category is coming from? It seems to be be automatically generated from somewhere and it says "Σ Story arc pop" which might suggest it is the infobox but as it is the only one in the category it can't be - very odd. (Emperor (talk) 02:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC))

Minor typo on the cat... the sigma should have been for sorting, not part of the cat name. - J Greb (talk) 02:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

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