User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Archive 9

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PIRRO BURRI, Besa Arvanon, Shqiponja Pellasge....and Epjiroti?

Could you please take a look into Epirjoti? It's very possible that he's a sockpuppet/new account of that guy, adding such info as "Historically, Albania is what is left of the great Illyrians, after never ending invasions starting with the Roman Empire, the Bulgarians, Serbian and Slavic tribes, and finally the Ottoman Empire and the newly formed (1821) Nationalistic State of Greece." Of course, he only used that leftover account after anonymously vandalizing articles for a couple of days. 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The same guy 217.24.240.11Megistias (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think Epirjoti is a different user, but 217.* is of course our old friend. He is banned, so all his contributions can be rolled back any time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Same guy =AspetusMegistias (talk) 18:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)'

Also User:Dardan of Macedonia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Also User:DODONA e Epirit.This never endsMegistias (talk) 20:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Also User:83.249.212.110.sokpuppet Megistias (talk) 15:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Durim DurimiMegistias (talk) 19:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Not only is Taulant not apologising but he is lying and mocking the whole situation.Megistias (talk) 23:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh jeezz here u go and cry!Din't we stop ur chicken cry along time ago??? What a kid any way I don't care u can u use the map but for my idea there are to many maps,at least put it at roman era,u are puting to many empty spaces its bad for Wiki and it does not look good.WHO GAVE U A PC??? :)--Taulant23 (talk) 00:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[1] I dont know whose this is .Megistias (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This is one of his old "aliases".Did you release any of his IP's? numbered contributor cause this is not his account whilst this iscontribs.Megistias (talk) 21:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ban evasion

Our friend MarkStreet / Mark us street / Truli / Esgert / Buffadren is evading the ban imposed after Transnistria arbitration. [2], [3]. --MariusM (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't be mentioned this ban evasion at the arbitration case page?--MariusM (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Transnistrians accept they have no voice on Wiki, it's written about in newspapers there, all the wiki propaganda is reprinted there it's totally false, it fosters anti Moldovan support and makes people even more fearful of the 'west' and Romania . 193.120.95.11 (talk) 10:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see the WP:ANI board. I have made a post about your conduct towards me

Nothing personal, but I want all this William Mauco stuff against me to end and I demand an apology. Please see here. Out of curiousity, what is your recall criteria? Not that I believe that it will be needed. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

!

Help!!! I'm stuck with having to fight opp2, and I don't know what to do... I'd like to avoid an edit war, so I am avoiding disputed sections for now. I beg for some advice. o.d.s.t. : feet first into hell (talk) 07:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:MKD

Hi, I recreated the template (under a similar name) here and created an assesment page here. Don't be alarmed, because I am serious about the WikiProject and have no interest in edit-warring. If you want we can scrap the to-do list altogether. I am going to recreate the categories now so please don't speedy delete them. BalkanFever 13:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, no problem with me at all. :-) I'm not a big fan of wikiproject tag templates, but getting the project as such more active would certainly be a good thing as long as it's done responsibly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Just so you know, tomorrow (actually it's "later today" in my timezone) I would like to add the template to articles about revolutionaries. This will be controversial - but (for argument's sake) they are as much Macedonian as they are Bulgarian. No to-do list of course. BalkanFever 14:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Kalli Hronia!

Happy new year FP! Krima pou den bre8hkame. NikoSilver 13:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Weird thing happens!

I found that the redirect page "Dokdo" has the same content of Liancourt rocks, so I thought the privious editor restore its old edition. There is no new poll for changing the title name yet. Therefore, I reverted it to the last revision to make it the redirect page. However, Liancourt rocks has disappeared and its history shows almost nothing. Can you tell me what happens on the pages (Liancourt rocks and dokdo redirect page)-Appletrees (talk) 17:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's being discussed at WP:ANI. Please wait a bit. Restoring the redirect was the right thing to do though, thanks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		Because putting up with all the nonsense at Liancort Rocks must have required to patience of a saint! Spartaz Humbug! 19:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, nice work. Congratulations. --Folantin (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, thanks everybody for the creative discussion. Sometimes even WP:ANI can be fun. Glad to see that my cry for help there led to something useful. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I tagged Whatdamn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as a possible sockpuppet of Fixersfixers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Liancourt Rocks/Evidence#Fixersfixers & AirFrance358 for evidence of similar disruption in Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan.--Endroit (talk) 21:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah of course! (slaps hand on forehead) Should have remembered that one myself. Thanks, good catch. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

About those Gilmore Girls episodes

I see you reverted my reverts of TTN's redirects. I have just reverted your reverts. As far as I understand it, TTN took it upon him/herself to indiscriminately redirect a whole bunch of articles that did not violate any Wikipedia guidelines, thus effectively removing them from view for the vast majority of users. I feel that if anyone really wishes to make such a sweeping change, it would be better to first seek some sort of consensus before doing so. I do not see any pressing need for these articles need to stay hidden while a discussion goes on, especially since your given reason for reverting was "extensive plot renarrations without sourced encyclopedic analysis are a breach of our non-free content policy and potential copyright violation". If the articles are effectively "gone" as far as the vast majority of people is concerned, sources are not very likely to be added.

I can see you may disagree with this, as may others. What do you suggest to escalate this? -- Mvuijlst (talk) 12:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

As you just quoted me saying, these articles did, and do still, violate Wikipedia guidelines. They are copyright violations. How to escalate this? Simple: Next time I see you reinstating copyright violations en mass, you will be blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Redirecting without discussion is, as far as I know, not the correct procedure to handle suspected copyright violations. I'd also like you to know I don't feel comfortable with your threat. -- Mvuijlst (talk) 15:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Re:

I admit that the last comment is retaliatory to Mochi's provocative comments like this

"Korea was a part of Japan, so it was no problem to move things from Korea to Japan. You may blame it, but it was like "moving things from Seoul to Busan"

[4] This is hardly considered from good faith. Of course, as your advice, I should tone down my wordings.

However, you only give a warning to me from the discussion. My suggestion to Mochi was simple. To provide reliable English source for the article. I also got the same request from an English editor for its English source. Then I provided some. Is my demand to Mochi so absurd to get his insulting comments? I don't want to get involved in any battle which is just a waste of time and prevents me from editing articles what i want to contribute to. I really want to plead Japanese editors to let Korean related article alone.

Moreover, you said I'm a long time editor, no. I'm an occasional visitor from Korean and Commons wikipedia to add images or interwiki to opera or cuisine articles, and my sincere engagement in English wikipedia was from late September. In the mentioned places, I was not aware of 3RR, nationalist, Checking user, sockpuppetry case, but here has so many things going on.

I've trying to be neural but race or history card from the other party are just to intend to mock, at that case, I easily lose my temper. I promise I would try harder but for fairness, would really appreciate if you also give the same warning to Mochi. Thanks.-Appletrees (talk) 17:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is terribly wrong because illegally obtaining Korean treasures are a crime in law at any time. Even thought Korea was under Japanese rules, Korean people were ought to keep their private properties. Is it okay that a governmental officer confiscates commoners' properties? No, the remaining Korean treasures are not Japanese things, but not returned. The article seemingly looks just limited to National treasures of South Korea at his talk page, but it is related to other editor who tried to remove all Korean relations with Japan and intensifies Japanese origin on Korean culture. Logically, Mochi's comment doesn't make any sense on the example of moving smuggled propertiess from Seoul to Busan. If he was right, my comment on Japanese defeat is also just based on the history and he can't complaint about many Japanese properties being imported to the West because it is firm fact that Japan was defeated by atomic bombs and peace finally came at that time. The reference was written in Japanese and it is so weird that he asserts he can't find the same content from web because the source written in Japanese is from a Korean newspaper. --Appletrees (talk) 18:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Rude, provocative messages from you

This [5] edit concerns me very much. You chose to completely ignore every point I made, referring to my response to each section of the argument as "rhetoric". It shocks me that you can accuse me of being "obnoxious" and "malicious" for politely asking other users not to threaten me, and then you post messages to me like that. I suggest you thoroughly study Wikipedia's rules, of which I have breached none, and you have breached several - especially WP:DICK. Yeanold Viskersenn (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate an apology considering I've remained courteous throughout the discussion and you've effectively told me that I ought to sexually assault myself. Yeanold Viskersenn (talk) 11:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I read your behaviour in this whole image affair as hypocritical trolling and WP:DICKishness. Sorry, but I still do, and there's not much you could possibly say or do now that would be likely to convince me of the opposite. In this context, your ostensible display of politeness only contributed to the trolling, and I very deliberately chose the tone I responded so as to break this hypocritical game. No apologies for that. I personally will always prefer a good, honest, well-deserved insult over a perverted show of false politeness like I believe I've been seeing from you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Digwuren enforcement blocks must be logged

Part of the Digwuren case enforcement procedures is to log all blocks issued here. Could you do that when you get a moment? Thanks! Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 18:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind! Keep up the good work! Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 18:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Apologies

Hello. Please accept my apologies for that heated discussion at Tulkolahten's talk page. I let myself quite provoked. Sorry for that. It is sometimes difficult with dealing with such users but I am making progress towards "cool as cucumber" concept. - Darwinek (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Pocopocopocopoco

Hey there.

I'm wondering why you think Poco is a sockpuppet? I've taken somewhat of an interest in him (I see him as needing guidance to learn to edit collaboratively but not beyond help), and while he does have problems I've been looking at his contributions and William Mauco's and I'm not sure I see a clear relation.

Poco has requested that I open a communication channel with your in an apparent good faith desire to clear the air, and that seems quite reasonable to me. You can use on-wiki, IRC (I'm Coren_ there) or email. — Coren ^(talk) 04:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't see what I could do here. I clearly told him the other day, I currently have no opinion on him either way. If he wants a confirmation that I do not believe him a sock, no, I couldn't truthfully give that. When he began editing, his editing interests in defending those post-Russian splitoff states and the timing of his appearance precisely after the previous batch of socks had been cleared away was highly suggestive. I don't know whether his more recent interest in the Armenian issues follows the same pattern. Armenia is one area where I don't interfere on principle, for unrelated reasons. His behaviour recently, when he suddenly showed an interest in exonorating not only himself but also Britlawyer (talk · contribs), timed exactly after a friendly exchange of opinions on Transnistria with a known sock of Buffadren (talk · contribs), hasn't increased my trust in him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

My interest in Armenian issues is due, simply put, to my interest in Armenian issues. Specifically Nagorno-Karabakh related articles. I find it odd that you think this is all part of some evil transnistrian astroturfing plot to pull the wool over your eyes. I suppose according to you that my interest in companies, finance, and a whole bunch of other topics along with my participation in the AFD process is part of said plot? I have no interest in exonorating Britlawyer, I brought it up as a possible example of what might be your overzealous behaviour. I don't know if he was a sock of someone but if your behaviour toward me is any indication, I think he might just have been some guy who simply had a certain POV and you jumped the gun and blocked him as a sock puppet. I believe it would be wise for admins to look at this further. I did not have a "friendly exchange" with the IP sock of Buffadren. He simply posted a reply to a question I had in Talk:Transnistria and he posted to my user talk page. I have no control over who posts to my talk page and who replies to my posts in the talk page of an article. I did not reply to him and I didn't even find his posts helpful as they didn't provide any reliable sources. I did however find user:Vecrumba's reply to me helpful eventhough he might have a marginally different POV than I. I shouldn't have to gain your trust, I have done nothing wrong. If you have concerns you need to adequately state them. So far all you have is that I joined wikipedia sometime after you got rid of a whole bunch of socks and that I might be sympathetic to unrecognized states. This is by no means justification for your ongoing paranoia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, your explanations are noted. Further than that, I can still see no reason why I should be wasting my time on this matter. I did nothing to you. I filed one RfCU about you months ago, at a time when this was a rational thing to do. Since then, I have (to my recollection) never interacted with you, never commented on you, let alone used administrative tools against you. I have no interest in interacting with you either. What is it to you if I have some remaining doubts? If this is paranoia, so what? You sound as if I had some obligation of being accountable to you for what I privately think. I am not. I did not accuse you of sockpuppetry, it was you who brought it up. Please leave me alone now. I will not comment further on this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Outlaw Award.

I, Deucalionite, present you with this award in honor of your persistence and rouge tactics as an administrator. Keep up the good work and make me proud. Despite my disliking you, this is an honor that I should have given you years ago. Better late than never. Good-bye old soldier. Deucalionite (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

LOL. That's an honour indeed! Thank you, I truly appreciate that, from you most of all... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You're very welcome. I know this award is a bit unconventional and unexpected (couldn't think of anything else to give you), but I thought it was about time to make amends. All I needed was my space to fulfill a whole laundry list of parameters (I still have a lot of work to do though). Social experiments aside, I always regarded you as a worthy opponent ever since you first deleted one of my articles. Please feel free to stop by and have a friendly chat with me once in a while. Take care and don't mind the banned user talking to me on my discussion page (I am trying to convince him to apologize for his behavior and contribute in a more positive way). Deucalionite (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

?

which users page did i vandal?--Orkh (talk) 20:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

i dont know who is Wikinist but he has some personal problems with me, he want to use admins. i didnt attack his/her page.--Orkh (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

and humanisticus did terrorist proganda in many pages. he copy/paste materials from terrorist orginasations page. and i think he has connection with Wikinist.(maybe the same person)--Orkh (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

wikinist want to destroy sources. Finno-Ugric people were the main power during Hunnic empire period but he/she doesnt want to see Finno-Ugric identity in the page. it looks like taking italians out of roman empire. doesnt sound stupid?--Orkh (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whatever to laugh or cry with you. I haven't claimed of attacks to my user page or threatened with admins, and I don't know who is "humanisticus", but oh yes will I fix your claims.

Orkh believs evil Aryans (Indo-Europeans) are blinding us from the true history, while 19th century race theories are true, so he uses them as sources.

He said to me:

"im not a nationalist, but i think you should search about your history again. your nation has lived with russian, sweden, and nazi domination(who were all aryan peoples). of course your history changed. the fact that you read your history in "european union" books, in EU mind. sorry but they are too far from the original point. its so bitter to see that a guy want to destroy his/her own history.

go to turania.com and read original texts from non-european sources and non-european people. respects--Orkh (talk) 21:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)"

www.Turania.com is pretty much like Flat Earth Society, a group of fanatic believers collectivily denying basic knowledge. I guess all having studied history knows absurdness of most 19th century theories, but oh wait, they're Aryan propaganda, I forgot.

So, do we want to believe revivals of racistic race-theories, or present modern historians' and scientists' views? I have wasted enough my time with this Turkis nationalist. I would be happy if Finnics had a history as mighty warriors, but its a factual error, what I have taken to my burden. An admin is needed to cool things down, I've grown bored to this.

Wikinist (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Solvency?

Did you finally reach a compromise with Dodona (PIRRO BURRI) or am I to assume that my efforts have failed? Deucalionite (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We had an interesting discussion - see user talk:Burra - and came close to an arrangement involving mentorship and some supervision, but then he backed off again. He was actually going to ask you to be his mentor. Hey, that would become a dreamteam indeed: Fut.Perf., Dodona and Deucalionite... ;-) -- If you want to give it another try imparting your wisdom to him, you're very welcome, somehow he seems to trust you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem mentoring Dodona. I pray that he follows through with the advice I give him. However, I would probably need to be given the okay from other administrators just to be safe with what has been "arranged" so far. What do you think?

On a sidenote, please tell me what was so funny when Dodona stated that he wanted me to be his mentor and you retorted "Heh, Deucalionite, that's funny ;-) Him of all people..." Not that I was offended or anything, I just didn't get the joke. Deucalionite (talk) 23:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I just thought it was similarly amusing as you giving me "outlaw awards" :-) After the way we used to clash, including over Arvanitic-related topics. You probably couldn't find three people whose opinions on Greece-related ethnic issues are further from each other than Dodona, you and me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

For the greek letter "Γ,γ,": how it may be pronounced correctly.

Hello, in nationality I am Greek and I hope that I can help you to that problem.

The letter "Γ,γ" "gamma" when after it, are coming the letters like:

• λ/l,
• o,
• δ/d,
• ν/n,
• ρ/r,

it pronounces like "g" or for better, the sound "gh" (it is difficult to pronounce it).

But... but I say... when after that letter are coming the letters and sounds as:

• α/a,
• ε/e,
• ι/i,
• ου/u,

this must pronounced as the letter "y" like the english words: Yes, Yard, Yonga, You e.t.c.

Can you understand me, or not?

I understand too, that the English names of the Greek place names must be writen as they have. The only one thing i can do, is to put the greek pronunciation word near the english title word like that: "Agiasos/Ayasos". Is that better maybe? The non greeks could know the true greek pronunciations, it is not bad and it is easy. Write me, friendly --Fallacia83 (talk) 00:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Γεια χαρά

Ναι, το είδα ότι έχεις ένα αρκετά καλό πτυχίο στα Ελληνικά αλλά κάνω και εξάσκηση στα αγγλικά μου :-)

Ναι, σου το έγραψα ό,τι όντως οι αγγλικές ονομασίες των Ελληνικών τοπωνυμίων είναι έτσι και δεν αλλάζουν. Το πολύ πολύ να κάνω διευκρινήσεις στα κείμενα μέσα να γράφω δηλαδή και την ελληνική προφορά της τοποθεσίας. Θα προσπαθήσω να διορθώσω τουλάχιστον τους τίτλους. Φιλικά --Fallacia83 (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ethnically derogatory terms

You might wish to see my comments at User talk:Kékrōps/Archives/2008/September#Ethnically derogatory terms and WP:AN/I#ΚέκρωΨ Need to be Banned!. Frankly I think we've been too tolerant up to now of incivility on Macedonia-related articles; it doesn't help promote harmonious editing, to say the least. I'd be interested in your views - obviously it would help in managing these articles if we could take a common approach on this. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User Bosnianjustice

Hola:) I'm having problems with this user. He repeatedly deletes images from [pages]. He also puted not sourced data and speculation on Jajce page and similar central bosnian pages, but after long (and hard) discusion he stoped with that. Could you please try to reason with him? Thans:) Ceha (talk) 15:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks:) I've contacted person which puted map with new municipial borders, so when he/she answers I'll put sources on the image. Ceha (talk) 16:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Making own municipality maps doesnt count as contribution to Wikipedia. Bosnianjustice (talk) 00:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Bulgarians

Hi Future, there is an unregistred user, who is vandalizing permanently the chapter Ethnogenesis in this article! Regards! Jingby (talk) 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi.

You can have a look now, at Romanians image copyright and sources. tell me if now it's ok Adrianzax (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The picture with Enescu it's taken from romanian section of Wikipedia, and the uploader of that picture wrote that the author died from more then 70 years, and the picture with Stephen The Great it's anonimus, you can find it also in other websites like this without author and copyright . I simply put that picture because a better representation of his portrait it doesn't exist. Adrianzax (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I will remove that template since the source information is now provided, ok?Adrianzax (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The picture of Enescu is made by an anonimus painter since this picture does not exist anywhere else. This anonimus painter has died for more then 70 or is not requestiong license for his work since the picture is not signed. The picture of Stephen the Great is in the same situation is made by an anonimus painter which either is dead for more then 70 years, either is not requesting license for that picture since that picture is used by many websites without giving the source.If you will remove this 2 pictures you will have to remove half of the pictures uploaded to Wikipedia, like this : Serbs or this Italians

for example in italians picture Giordano Bruno does not have the author of the paitning written. this is just a single example ;). Adrianzax (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And "tanar" means young in romanian language, it's a proof that the author of Enescu picture has died for more then 70 years.Adrianzax (talk) 21:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

ok then you'll have to remove also this image Serbs isn't it? Adrianzax (talk) 01:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Warnings

Indeed I do not understand of working with a computer except for basic thing so I know little for image uploading. But the last two images you wrote aboat were from a site given me by Todor Bozhinov as a free site to upload images from Bulgaria. I don't know what do you mean with cleaning up images... And also I cannot upload images from my computer whether I want it or not : ) Everything I have uploaded was from my workplace.

I will be grateful if you archive my talk page ot tell how to do that. --Gligan (talk) 07:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning but I do not believe you warned tha main edit-warring user Lantonov. I was the first one to admit the ongoing edit-war between me and several other heavily pro-Bulgarian users including Lantonov, Gligan, Laveol, and Jingiby. If you look at the edit history you will find Lantonov making more than 20 edits/reverts per day. In an attempt to resolve this I opened an informal mediation request [[6]] clearly stating the reasons for it. The mediator saw no prospect of a compromise and close the case. I was not able to discuss any specifics related to the article with the above mentioned users in a constructive manner. When they do not like something they go ahead and simply delete it claiming that the sources I provide were English or French sources with an anti-Bulgarian bias. (I borrowed all the sources related to Bulgaria from a public library. It must be the library that is biased.) The only reason I chose to spend my time in wikipedia is my understanding that a sourced material could not be discarted at any users discretion without agreement. I can not go on wasting mytime here if my effort can be thrown away so easily by such users. Gligan did not even bother discussing anything with me until his/her recent hateful response. These users are communicating among themselves in Bulgarian in order to coordinate their edits and attacks. See here where Gligan translates his/her own message and the deletion of the original Турците from his own talk page by Lantonov. Laveol on the other hand is helping Gligan archive his talk page in order to hide my message that contained the same quote. I'd appreciate it if you could take a second look at this matter. To my understanding this a serious violation these users are trying to conceal. I was thinking to request a formal mediation but it would be fruitless with such users acting in bad faith to push their POV. I am relatively new here and need help in resolving the disputes regarding this article. --Nostradamus1 (talk) 12:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You're certainly not new to Wickipedia as you have been pushing for the same thing for more than 3 months. And it was this very same admin who helped Gligan archive his talkpage (are you accusing him of something, too?). And it's interesting to hear about POV-pushing by someone who has a direct link to the article in question on his userpage. I proposal page protection (at least partial) as some IPs suddenly appeared after the warnings left on talkpages. --Laveol ^T 12:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the site [7]

Nostradamus1, my comment stay unanswered by you so you are the one who is blindly pushing heavily pro-turkish POV. And my talk page is very long, I don't want to hide anything. If you wish copy your warning as much times as you want on the new page.

Future Perfect, the way you protected the article Turk in Bulgaria is unacceptable. At least you can make the difference between Turks and Turkic peoples; and if they want to push the POV that the Bulgars have anything to do with the contemporary Turkish people, you should be wise enough to see this is not true. They also deleted sourced info for the islamization. This user Nostradamus1 denies the Armenian genocide and all ottoman atrocities which are well documented. --Gligan (talk) 16:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Does this "To clarify once and for all. I do not allow my pictures to be used by any commercial enterprise" mean that they cannot be used here? I thought Wikipedia is not a commercial site but perhaps my understanding of the word "commercial" is not correct... Unfortunately I have no idea how to contact him : ( --Gligan (talk) 16:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading the text on the page with license I think I see where the problem lies. What Nikola Gruev says in Bulgarian is that "Only the pictures used in Wikipedia are under GFDL - for all the others you'd need a separate permission.

Here is a translation of his third letter form 8th November 2004(the first is from 2nd NOvember 2004 and the second from the 4th November) : "For the needs of Wikipedia (the Bulgarian or any other version) I hereby give you permission to use all the pictures from my galleries found suitable by your team given the conditions you mentioned. This accounts for all images I have uploaded as well as all images I upload in the future. I wish you luck in this difficult, but noble initiative." --Laveol ^T 17:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for that. If he's really saying "given the conditions you mentioned", that should be okay, because the mail he was responding to did actually mention the GFDL and link to it, right? So, once somebody uploads the image here, the GFDL kicks in. I'm relieved, because otherwise we'd have been forced into a carnage of image deletions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to be sure I posted a question on BG wiki - let's hope someone answers soon. --Laveol ^T 17:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the translation of the first letter (very rough one, I have no time):

For the needs of the Wikipedia (the Bulgarian or the other versions), I give you permission to use all pictures from my galleries, which are appropriate according to your team, under the conditions you mentioned. My permission is both for all pictures I have already released and all pictures I will release in future. I wish you luck in the difficult but noble undertaking.

This is the second one:

I have read your proposal and I have immediately agreed (where the proposal was made).

I give my consent here too, in a separate letter to have it "in black and white" in your own archive.

In the English Wikipedia it was me who put the links towards the pictures in my galleries. I have already done this work in the Bulgarian version.

Exactly as you, I consider my pictures as a useful and positive visual material, which can be better seen than read. The number of the viewed pictures (1046993) in the last ten months prove that.

I believe that my pictures published in the net can be only of use. Of great use or not, I can't determine, but after all of USE. In that case - let them be!

I see you have taken great responsibility as an administrator in the Bulgarian Wikipedia. I can feel nobleness in your impulse towards such activity. I wish you success!

I can't translate the third now - I have to study a whole textbook till tomorrow : ( Best, --Gligan (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I will try to, but this is going to be in the end of January. --Gligan (talk) 17:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to confirm - the whole issue with the pictures of NGruev was resolved on Commons. He explains he does not view Wikipedia as a commercial enterprise and that the text does not imply for it. Cheers. --Laveol ^T 18:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to get an answer to my inquiry above. Why only me, user:Ilhanli, and user:Gligan received a warning? Are user:Lantonov and user:Jingiby going to receive the same warning? Their disruptive editing can be seen in article's history. (BTW Shan Yu is also a fork of Shanyu that you might want to look at.) Nostradamus1 (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.--Nostradamus1 (talk) 04:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

shaman4 says hello

Hello,

First of all, i don t only try to promote some facts on wiki about macedonia(the real one,of course...)

I had some contribs on medicine-related articles (as this is what i do,medicine).Why don t they appear in my contribs? because at the time, i didnt feel the need ( and still dont ) to get any credit (or whatever else...) because i was a "contributor".

I did sign only for macedonia related articles so as not to be anonymous.... i felt it was important there!people would dismiss what you had to say because it was comming from an unsigned user...like if you contribute more, your statements matter more...stupid logic!

anyways, appart from medicine i know some stuff about macedonia.basically what i read in foreign litterature as i dont reside in greece.. my encyclopedia is french...all my books were written by non greeks so i consider them unbiased. And, compared to those books, wiki resembles a skopian-propaganda website... why do i use skopjan??belive me its not racist....i just dont know how else to call them as i perfectly respect their right to self determination.So i NEVER refer to them as bulgarians...THAT would be offending!

i gave you the wikipedians a link with live statement from denko malevski admitting they invented the macedonia issue because i felt it was of the uttmost importance!

you ....deleted it (since it doesnt directly appear and nobody will bother searching...some merely bother reading anything else than their story..) the reason you gave: "If you have some concrete proposal about how to improve this article, please let's hear it"

I HAD ONE: (taken from history section as i self deleted myself...)

I saw this article developping with time.These 3.2 and 3.3 parts were not initially there. I feel they were added so as to even the "scores". My objection is mainly about wikipedia using what would seem as rainbows party s arguments just to even the sizes of the two parties arguments.

ONLY official arguments raised by official goverments deserve a place since its about the NAMING DISPUTE. I am sorry to say that the pro-furom arguments espouses what the proponents of macedonism suggest...not what FYROM officially says. PLEASE wikipedia correct that, even if it considerably diminuishes the size of FYroms arguments. After all its not Official fyrom arguments.

once again, what do i demand??that the pro skopian section should only include what they officially say:

1)our right to self determination 2)"macedonia" is of the uttmost importance for the stability of our country..

anything else is wikipedia saying more than the official fyrom anything else is also irrelevant.

WHAT DO I DEMAND FROM YOU??? replace the "Official source tangible to everybody everywhere"section and its blabla by a new section:

"Denko Malevski, fYROM'S first ambassador to the UN statement on greek television" as a title

the link and a small note indicating that malewski only talks at the end of the video. as content.

Why dont i do it myself??well because i dont want to play cat and mouse get edited etc...

ps:whatever you do, i kindly request you remove whats left of the section i started because , my statements are now out of context and i sound like "i am trying to prove greece is right" In their context i sounded more like " greece is not right because i m greek, but because malewski said they INVENTED the whole thing"

pss: the link is about """Denko Malevski, fYROM'S first ambassador to the UN""" statement on greek television. It alone deserves to be on the macedonia naming dispute talk page more than anything else that is actually there.folded is not really acceptable in my opinion...

psss:i didnt appreciate my section being "komenos kai ramenos" so as to sound like a nationalist child.you should have deleted the whole thing.

pssss: in many ways, fyromians remind me of darwin-revisionism.if you feel i m racist having said that, have a look at the link i gave.notice what malewski says.He admits revisionism!

Television episodes

There might be a good faith misunderstanding about copyright here. I'm no lawyer, but I did study writing in graduate school (in a division named cinema-television) where a course in required law was required curriculum. According to what I learned there, a plot summary should not present any copyright problem as long as it's written in the editor's own words (as opposed to being cribbed from TV Guide). You may want to double check this at Wikipedia_talk:Copyright_problems. Although I don't think copyright is Newyorkbrad's specialty, it's a pretty basic question and he could probably give you a firm answer. Regards, Durova^Charge! 21:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I have no doubt that a true summary (that deserved its name) wouldn't be a copyright infringement, but it depends on the extent of it. To my knowledge, and that must have been what was in the minds of the people who drafted the language at MOSFICT, American courts have ruled on at least one occasion that a re-telling of a copyrighted story, if extensive enough, can cross the line into becoming an abridged substitute of the original script and hence a derived work. The case is "Twin Peaks Productions, Inc. v. Publications International, Ltd.". I haven't seen the full text of the ruling, but one excerpt I found quoted was: the case "involved a book published by PIL concerning a television series. The book included a detailed recounting of the plot of the first eight episodes: ‘every intricate plot twist and element of character development appear in the Book in the same sequence as in the teleplays.’ 996 F.2d at 1373. The court held that the book was basically an abridgment of the script and that abridgments (despite contrary, aged authority) are generally not fair use." Now, I'll be damned if that description doesn't fit our episode cruft pretty closely, don't you think? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I see the point. To the best of my knowledge that instance was much more extensive than what we do (unless there are instances I don't know about). A reasonable limit on the extent of a plot summary would probably resolve worries - say, if Wikipedia summaries went into about the same depth as a book or film review. Durova^Charge! 21:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have (or did have?) episodes described to the level of the following:

"Dame Kelly Holmes Close, a suburban neighbourhood in London, prepares for the 2012 Olympic Games. Kel, a council worker, repairs potholes in the street by laying new tarmac, baking it to solidity. Maeve, an old woman, passes posters of missing children, as a young girl, Chloe Webber, watches from the upstairs window of her house.

Maeve senses something and tells two boys, Dale and Tom, to go back indoors. Trish, Chloe's mother, asks Maeve if she feels all right as Maeve and Tom's father start arguing about whether the boys should go inside. [...]"

And that was from one of supposedly our best covered TV episode series! (fortunately, it's been tidied up, but only recently [8]). I understand this is not an isolated case. And people have the cheek to demand even fair-use images for "articles" like that!

Point is, I don't want them just at the quantity of a "a book or film review", as you say, I want them at that quality. They need to engage in actual analysis. Then we have no problem.

We should also keep in mind: Even if our plot coverage manages to meet the criteria set out in that court ruling, they may still be "only" fair use. Not free. And that's especially bad for our mission, because unlike images, potentially non-free text elements are not tagged and automatically identifiable as such; thus, a potential down-stream user can't filter them out. Therefore, the requirement that we minimize them to a point where their fair-use justification is absolutely obvious and non-contestable, in any reasonably conceivable scenario of downstream use, is particularly pressing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, plot summaries are fair use by definition. I'm reminded of this example, which is a well known example of an copyright claim by plot alone. Television episode plot summaries aren't substantively different from plot summaries of films, novels, or stage plays in that regard. And academic presses regularly publish plot summaries and analyses that are far lengthier and more detailed than anything on Wikipedia. Now that I think about the Twin Peaks ruling, is it possible a claim was made that the published book plagiarized the show's bible (the in-house working text of characters and episode summaries)? Sometimes those get leaked and - I'm speculating here - a claim might have been made that the commercial book was an unauthorized derivative work on that basis. We're probably getting to the level where it's best to ask someone who specializes in entertainment law. Still, as long as a Wikipedia plot summary remains at approximately the length and depth of other widely published fair use plot summaries, and doesn't cross the WP:NOR line, it seems we should be in safe territory. Durova^Charge! 01:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Safe territory in terms of "legal"? Perhaps. Safe territory in terms of our policy of keeping non-free material to a "minimum", for our own sake? Certainly not. And the comparison with "academic presses" doesn't work: Academic literature uses plot summaries in order to sustain analysis. I always said, if our coverage did that, I'd have no problem with it at all, and I wouldn't care how long it was. But here's the dilemma: Since these works have never been the object of published critical or academic analysis, we only have the choice between doing no analysis at all, or rolling or own (OR).

But in any case, thank you for confirming my understanding that plot summaries are non-free "by definition" - several inclusionists have denied even that. And thank you for confirming the idea that there should be a quantitative limit to plot summaries - that's what WP:EPISODE is trying to do, and inclusionists want to get rid of even that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Centralized TV Episode Discussion

Over the past months, TV episodes have been reverted by (to name a couple) TTN, Eusebeus and others. No centralized discussion has taken place, so I'm asking everyone who has been involved in this issue to voice their opinions here in this centralized spot, be they pro or anti. Discussion is here [9]. --Maniwar (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Stawiki/Archtransit

Re recall for Archtransit, since you mentioned it - his criteria prohibit recall processes until after 30 days as an admin (we're on 5). ^Avruchtalk 21:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Romanian etymology

Un nou rasarit dar viitorul inca nu este perfect--mrg3105mrg3105 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure but if this is about the translation of your name into Romanian , then :

• either "Viitor anterior la Răsărit" if you are refering to Future Perfect Tense (or "Viitorul anterior" if it was "The Future Perfect")
• either "Viitor perfect la Răsărit"(somewhat as "Perfect future at Sunrise") AdrianCo (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

Hmm, I don't speak Romanian. What was mrg saying? :-) (I'll tell you about the meaning of my name later...) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Mrg said "A new sunrise but the future is not yet perfect" . But now you got me curious. What is the true meaning of your name? AdrianCo (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

Basically just a silly joke... I explained it back here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Now I got it! :)) thanks!(lol...yodeling grammar....) AdrianCo (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

Uhrana

Hi, Future! The name of this article have to be Ohrana, but Ohrana is redirected to Axis occupation of Greece during World War II. I can not to move Uhrana to Ohrana and stop the redirectinon of Ohrana to Axis occupation of Greece. Please, could you as an Administrator do it instead of me! Regards! Jingby (talk) 09:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Footnes of the Nicolas "essay" [10] includes 77 articles! Jingby (talk) 10:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Uhrana is reworked, I think!?! Jingby (talk) 11:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Rollback

Hello!

I'm bothering you because I saw your name listed as one of the administrators willing to be approached about granting rollback privileges. I do quite a bit of vandalism fighting but do not use any of the Twinkle-type scripts so I wanted to see if it would be possible to get the rollback feature so I can fight vandalism a little more effectively. Would you consider allowing me the access to it? Let me know. Thanks. SWik78 (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, done. Just keep in mind to not use it in content disputes, especially not for revert-warring. But I guess you know that already... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Riiiiight.... Just joking. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Peace! SWik78 (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem

Just drop a note on my talk or send me an email any time you want any enforcing done of the Macedonia ArbCom case. I'm very happy to help out here. Cheers, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Heta

I reverted what you did to Eta (letter) because while merging, you pretty much ruined the part about Eta in modern Greek. Heta is clearly an obsolete letter so it should have its own page just as the other obsolete letters do. Its a different looking letter also, it would just cause confusion.Grk1011 (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have commented on Talk:Heta (letter), let's have the discussion there. But what did I "ruin"? I just changed the order a bit, to make it conform to temporal sequence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

This is what i see from my watchlist [11]. It was pretty easy to understand what the letter is today. none of that section about modern greek should have changed in my opinion. if your gonna merge it, i think that you should make a new section maybe?

Ah, is it just that you want the modern Greek sound value further near the top? No problem. We could easily have a short reference to the two canonical phonetic values (Classial /E:/, Modern /i/) in the intro, but then still do the whole recap of the history. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Like in Beta, there are sections for ancient and modern (didnt get to the rest yet) Eta should have have an ancient, modern, and possibly historic usage section?Grk1011 (talk) 23:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure we'd have enough stuff for separate sections (it's basically just one sentence for each stage), but we can certainly restore the summary sentence about pronunciation at the top, and then combine that with my expanded history, for the moment. - I mainly want to get this done so as to have the Heta (letter) page out of the way, because it's pretty dubious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I missed the two paragraphs that you added at the bottom, put them back they are fine. I would suggest leaving the modern pronunciation section alone maybe. And add some headings to separate the letters different aspects. So yea, add Heta in.Grk1011 (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, fine. I gave it another try. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I approve.Grk1011 (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort with heta/eta. What I am not sure about is its position in the alphabet. In modern Greek it's the 7th letter, but it might have been the eighth one in the ancient greek one, with digamma (or maybe stigma) as sixth letter. Do you know anything about this?--Archidamus (talk) 00:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that we've quashed Heta, can we clean up Greek alphabet a bit? Stigma is still listed as a letter there, and Sho is listed as an obsolete letter.... If we're going to include the Bactrian Sho, why not include all the extra Coptic letters, too?... --Macrakis (talk) 00:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the Sho, but go ahead and do as you see fit. As for your question, Archidamus, my understanding is that digamma was the sixth letter (just like its reflex F in Latin) and simply preserved that value in the Greek numeral system. In modern Greek usage, stigma has taken that role due to a confusion/reanalysis of similar glyphs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 01:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Albanian as Epiriotes

I ask your support to come to consensus for the following statement supported by references in Albania article. Many thanks Dodona

Section :Albanian as Epiriotes

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Some of Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus as part of their identity and the Albanian language as "Epirotic". But this is opposed by the Greeks because in the ancient Epirus existed the Pelasgic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks; however both nations have claimed Pelasgic ancestry.. References :

1.’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

2.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

3.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online.

4.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [29]

5.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [30]

6. Reference : The Albanians (more of an ethnographic than a geographic term) are called Arnauts (Arnaoots, Arnaouts) by the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula; they give themselves the name of Skipetars or "mountaineers". They claim descent from the Epirots and Illyrians, and, like the latter, have always been distinguished by their warlike spirit Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [12]

7. Reference : Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.: Source: Albania.Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [13]

8. Reference : Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Source Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [14]

9. Reference :The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe. Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles. On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas. It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta; and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain. Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [15] Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for your patience in pursuing this politely and constructively. However, I'm afraid in my personal opinion this will still not work.

Of your proposed text, the only statement that has any link at all with the sources you've quoted is that Scanderbeg's and Ali Pasha's rules were associated with Epirus. Now, well, that's a truism. Everybody agrees they were located in Epirus, so what's the point in emphasizing it?

All the rest, about both modern nations' attitudes towards their links to "Epirus", is unsourced.

Now, as for your sources:

1. The Bogdani quote only confirms that the Albanian language was called Epirotic at one time. Since it's a primary source, not a secondary source, it's of limited value to us, because we need a modern reputable historian explaining to us what the relevance of that fact is (if any).

2. Gibbons quote only mentions that there were Albanians somewhere around Skanderbeg. Nothing new really.

3. Nothing of any information value whatsoever, except that there was a kingdom of Ali Pasha (well, we knew that already.)

4. Same as the Bogdani item 1, no additional information

5. Okay, now, that's finally something relevant. Okay, this is a modern secondary source by a reputable scholar explaining how some Albanians in the 15th century saw themselves in a tradition of ancient Epirus and ancient Macedonia. Maybe we can think of a way of using that somewhere.

6. The Catholic Encyclopedia is thorougly outdated and not a reliable source about Balkan ethnicities.

7. Again, Catholic Encyclopedia. Of course, the issue of the Epirotic origin of the Greek ethnonyms is already covered widely in Wikipedia.

8. Nothing at all about ethnic issues, just a geographic description of the ancient Roman provinces. "The Albanian territory" in this text obviously doesn't refer to "territory inhabited by Albanians at that time".

9. Just a geographic description about how these territories were perceived around 1900, of little relevance to anything else.

See, you are still just throwing around random bits and pieces of text found somewhere on the internet. It really doesn't work that way.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising

Dear Future, there began something as Edit - War on this article. An editor have changed a soursed text about the the ethnic character of the insurgents from Bulgarian to Macedonian. I think that was long time debated on the talk page and there are any proves obout the Macedonian character of the insurgents! Could you intervent please! Jingby (talk) 19:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Dear Future, I would like to thank you for intervening and commenting on a recent copyright violation concerning one image uploaded by me. Greetings from Crete, --Lemur12 (talk) 11:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Look at what my friend taulant is doing

taulantI am very angryMegistias (talk) 23:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not doing anythink bad but htose pics are not urs.I like em though, I have no problem.--Taulant23 (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC) p.s. thanks for calling me a friend.

They are mine i just made one saying hello to Lukasbfr[16].Megistias (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Albanian as Epirotes , old and modern sources

According to the sources, Albanians are connected with Epirus. This happened, as sources indicated, at least from Roman Empire , during the Byzantine Empire, before and during Ottoman empire. Ethnic maps of Albania in fact are based on Ottoman administrative boundaries where Albanians in the south were part of Ioanina vilayet this correlates with organization of Albanian territory and people during Roman Empire. Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were also identified with Epriotes. During Ottoman Empire the religion defined national community and Greek orthodox Albanians were classified as Greeks, generally to Albanian were denied linguistic rights, so in 1878 there were 163 Greek schools and 80 Turkish but not Albanian schools in Berat , Gjirokater and Vlore while in Korca the lessons were conducted in modern Greek while the local loved their own language. In fact ethnicity in Greece is unproblematic, it is emphasized that for Greeks is difficult to conceive that ethnicity and language may contradict. The situation of Albanian population in 19th and beginning of 20th century was perceived like this by Pashko Vasa ( Vaso Pasha Shkodrani) with perhaps the most popular poem still very much actual “O moj Shqypni , mjera Shqypni “ O Albania ,poor Albania. Quotes that “Albanians you are killing each other “and that “you are divided in hundred section “ and “ but all of you are brothers” assuming that the religion difference is not important to claim different nationalities. Until the end of 19th century Albanian populations living in Greece were assimilated although extensions with northern territories in beginning of 20th century with more other ethnic group prove to be much more difficult. In fact northward expansion of Greek state established in 1830 focused not only in whole Epirus also what is now Albania. To day modern post London Albania includes partly his former territories but still the Epirus is synonym of Albania from modern sources.

Albanians consider Epirus as a very strong part of their national identity ( etnography and language ) that unjustly was separated by their natural border as the other parts of its former territories. The current process in the Balkan is in fact nothing but the maturation and consolidation of the Albanian nation with their own identity and choices between post modern European and traditional values

1..Reference : For most native speakers of Greek, ethnicity is an unproblematic concept: Greeks are those whose mother tongue is Greek, whether they are citizens of Greece or not. It is difficult for many Greeks to conceive of situations where language and ethnicity might be problematical or indeterminate Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 151.

2. Reference: Nationalism became the guiding principle of policy after the successful outcome of the Balkan Wars. In addition to Venizelos? diplomaticinsight, 36 a wide programme of institutional reforms was undertaken with the dual purpose to modernise Old Greece and to homogenise the very diverse new provinces. Source : Teichova, Alice(Editor). Economic Change and the National Question in Twentieth-Century Europe. West Nyack, NY, USA: Cambridge University Press, 2000. p 207.

3. Reference:It can be argued with some confidence that Greece in the nineteenth century enjoyed a considerable degree of homogeneity since, until the end of that century, populations living in Greece but speaking different languages, such as Albanians, were fully assimilated into the Greek culture and political system and did not exhibit any separate national identity. The annexation of the northern territories, however, at the beginning of the twentieth century proved to be more complicated. Source: Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 151.

4.Reference: Under the Treat of Bucharest of August 1913, Albania’s independence was internationall recognized within virtuall its present-da borders, including northern Epirus (where ethnic Albanians outnumbered Greeks), Source : Day, Alan. Political and Economic Dictionary of Eastern Europe. London, , GBR: Europa Publications, Limited, 2002. p 190

5. Reference: Northward expansion of the independent Greek state established in 1830 focused on historic Macedonia, the Greek claim to which encompassed not only the whole of Epirus but also much of what is now Albania Source : .Day, Alan. Political and Economic Dictionary of Eastern Europe.London, , GBR: Europa Publications, Limited, 2002. p 190.

6.Reference: Modern Greece has always been a multilingual country. Accurate information on how multilingual it is is very difficult to obtain: no Greek census since 1951 has included questions about language. There has also been a certain distortion in some of the academic research on this topic brought about by anti-minority Greek nationalism. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 153.

7. Reference: Maps of ethnic Albania produced by émigré groups are generally based on Ottoman administrative boundaries from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, viz. the vilayets of Scutari, Kosova, Monastir and Ioanina. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 145.

8. Reference:Pashko Vasa (Vaso Pasha Shkodrani) wrote a long poem beginning O moj Shqypni, e mjera Shqypni ?O Albania, poor Albania!?, described by Elsie (1995, 262) as ?the most influential and perhaps the most popular [poem] ever written in Albanian.? Owing to its significance, we shall quote a few lines from the middle of the poem (Elsie 1995, 262? 267, his translation, slightly modified. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.cBerlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 145.

9. Reference: The question of the education of the Albanians in their own language was a problem posed many times in the reports of American religious missionaries in the Balkans. In June 1896 Reverend Lewis Bond reported that lessons at the Korça (Korcë) school were conducted in modern Greek, while the local people loved their own tongue which they spoke only at their homes. "Can we do anything for them", asked Reverend Bond. His question obviously remained rhetorical, because three years later he sent another, much more extensive, statement on the issues of the language and education of the Albanians in Korça. He wrote that only at the girls' school, set up by the Protestant community, the training was in Albanian and once more claimed there was no American who would not sympathise with the Albanians and their desire to use their own language Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities . International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999[ [17]

10 . Reference : The history of modern Albanian identity, like that of other modern Balkan identities, begins during the end of the Ottoman Empire. At this time, the Ottoman system of classification was based on millet, which can be glossed ?religiously defined national community?. Greek Orthodox Albanians were therefore classified as Greeks and Muslim Albanians as Turks. The Orthodox were subject to Hellenization, while the Muslims were denied linguistic rights granted to Christians. Thus, for example, in 1878 there were 80 Turkish schools, 163 Greek schools, and no Albanian schools in the sandjaks of Berat, Gjirokastër, and Vlorë (Jelavich 1983, 85). Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.

11, Reference:Albanian is identified as the descendent of Illyrian, but Hamp (1994a) argues that the evidence is too meager and contradictory for us to know whether the term Illyrian even referred to a single language. Thracian has also been adduced as a possible ancestor of Albanian (Fine 1983, 10? 11). Hamp (1982; 1994b) argues that Albanian is descended from a language that was in intense contact with Latin, as was the language that produced Romanian (traditionally referred to as Dacian), but unlike the ancestor of Romanian, the ancestor of Albanian escaped Romanization. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.

12.Reference “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [18]

13.Reference : The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat…….By the beginning of 1386 the lord of Yanina, the Florentine Esau Buondelmonti declared his vassalage to the Ottomans and confirmed it appearing in person in the town of Edirne. In the same period, his southern neighbour and rival Albanian despot Gjin Bua Spata, had to do the same. Until his death in 1400 despot Gjin Bua Spata more than once resorted to Ottomans help in the wars he waged against the Rhodes Knights Hospitallers, who at that time made efforts to gain a firm foothold in Lepanto and Corinth. Individual members of the Albanian clan of Muzaka also became Ottoman vassals” Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA1999 [19]

14. Reference:.The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets) “…..During last decades many publications used as reference this study as in philosophic – theological concept authors I.Rugova,Z.Xholi,E.Sedaj ; didactic concept by authors Sh..Osmani .M.Sciambra, K. Ashta ,A. Kostallarri ; historic and patriotic concept by I. Zamputi,V.Kmasi,S.Riza … “Comments by Anila Omari ”

“Title of original publication after the transcription of Dr.M.Ahmeti is : “FLAVISSAE / PROPHETARUM DE ADVENTU / MESSIAE EPIROTICE “ Prof Dr.Seit Mansaku , Prof.Dr.Kolec Topalli Published and commented by Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

15.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [[20] to this linguistic are referred amy Albanian and foreigner authors like Cabej ,Shuteriqi , Topalli , Svane Gunnar etc.

16.Reference: Albania Synonims (Shqipëria) Arbania/Arbanon, Epirus The Republic of Albania (Republika e Shqipërisë) since 1991. Previously the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1976); the People's Republic of Albania (1946); the Kingdom of Albania (1928); and the Republic of Albania (1925). Although its independence was recognized in principle in 1912, it was made a protectorate of the Great Powers. Source :"Albania" Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names. John Everett-Heath. Oxford University Press 2005.

17. Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[21] Dodona --Burra (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell Burra to stop or his mentor to do it?[22]Megistias (talk) 19:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I was doing so as you wrote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

What is the deal with this person ?[23]I write something and he writes while imagining i wrote something elseMegistias (talk) 22:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Disputed images and Wikipedia:No original research

Hi Fut. Perf,

I've proposed an amendment to Wikipedia:No original research that would strengthen (or more accurately, reiterate) the requirement of editors to reliably source interpretations of images in articles. This would particularly apply to depictions of allegorical or symbolic artworks or artifacts, where the meaning was not immediately clear or was subject to differing interpretations. You can see the text of the proposed amendment at Wikipedia talk:No original research#Interpretation of images - please feel free to leave comments.

Another editor involved in the discussion has suggested providing an example of "an actual ongoing dispute to illustrate the problem". I believe you're active in editing or monitoring articles in controversial subject areas, and I was wondering if you were aware of any such ongoing or recent disputes. It would specifically have to concern something like an illustration of unclear meaning, which editors were disputing what it represented, maybe because of a lack of reliable sourcing about the image itself or about its interpretation. If you've come across anything like this scenario, could you please chip in at Wikipedia talk:No original research#Interpretation of images? -- ChrisO (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean, interesting issue indeed. I find it quite likely that problems of this kind occur, although I can't right now lay my fingers on a concrete example. Will keep it in mind though, maybe I can remember something where this did happen. I read your proposal earlier today and at first sight the wording struck me as slightly too specific, about a single aspect of such a problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you can suggest any alternative forms of words or approaches, I'd be grateful. I agree that it's fairly specific but that was intentionally so, in order to focus on what I see as being the most likely source of disputes. The scope could always be widened later if needed. Thanks for keeping the issue in mind. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ohrana

Hey, Future Perfect, how are you? It's been a time since we talked the last time. Well I think we are coming close to a neutral point of view with jingby on the article about the Ohrana (just like we did for the NOF). I made a huge revision of the article today and restructured it, entered some new information - My last revision, on which he first agreed, but afterwards started changing and making the article look as his own essay. So, there are some issues which are not neutral, and which i think you must consider too. These are: 1) I first think that Jingby must avoid usage of the word "Grecoman", for it is offensive to many Greeks, and i agree with that it is offencive. 2) Second, Ohrana militia never attacked the peaceful "Grecomans" (better say pro-Greek Slavophones), Vlachs and Pontians. Vlachs had their own colaborationist organization organized by the Italians - they called themselves centurions. 3) As for this privately made essay - [IMRO Militia And Volunteer Battalions 1943-1944 http://www.makedonskatribuna.com/IMRO.doc] which is filled with hatred and xenophobia, the rules stated in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and better here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Extremist_sources say that these things can not be used as a reliable source. BUT still I am not against using it as an external link, even as an reference, but we mustn't say Grecomans, or that "ohrana attacked grecomans". Ohrana only attacked communists. 4) Neither Ohrana, nor the Macedonian Committee in Kastoria organized newspapers or schools in Bulgarian. Schools in Bulgarian were organized only in the Bulgarian occupied zone of east Greek Macedonia and West Thrace. 5) IMRO seeded to exist in the late 30's when the Bulgarian government banned the organization and destroyed the infrastructure of the organization in Pirin district of Bulgaria. So Ohrana and the Kastorian committee were created by the Bulgarian Thessaloníki club, which was adherent to the Bulgarian High Command, former IMRO members only supported the effort but did not do nothing else than support. Please consider these things and write on the discution board of Ohrana - nevertheless the article is neutral. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Letter shapes

T-Sampi is more like russian П and too Greek PI, with addition of | in the middle, while C-Sampi is more like russian Э and too Greek LUNATE EPSILON, with addition of -. In this way T-Sampi should be primary, and C-Sampi secondary, because T-Sampi combines graphically low PI and high TAU, while C-Sampi looks rather like Euro sign. T-shape is not corrupted, but fully fledged alphabetic letter, instead of C-shape, that was mainly numeric and marginally alphabetic. For proof look into Sampi article to compare alphabetic T-Sampi and numeric C-Sampi. CBMIBM (talk) 11:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I shouldn't be replying to you because you are sockpuppeting and ought to be banned anyway. But I'll bite nevertheless: The name "sampi" ("san-π") comes from a time when the symbol was written only in the C-like shape, and was used only as a numeral. It was this similarity, not whatever similarity the old glyph shapes had with Π, that gave it its name. And this was its sole function and its sole shape for almost two millenia, much longer than its alphabetic predecessor had ever been in use. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This was not intentional sockpuppeting. I simply lost login cookie when Windows 2000 hung and I CHKDSKed my hard disk. As you see, I don't vandalize currently anything, thus banning is not needed, but instead I'm editing constructively. Don't worry, and please expect from me many constructive edits in future. This all misbehavior is the past. Thank you for explanation. Additionally, why heta cannot have separate article, especially when here: http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis//unicode/heta.pdf is stated, that tack heta is a distinct letter, and not variant of eta, but rather letter derived from eta, that is defined as separate letter? CBMIBM (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't state that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

But what with this? Inside PDF is following statement: "The tack heta should be encoded as a letter, and it should sort either immediately after or immediately before eta; since the characters were almost always mutually exclusive (with the exceptions of Delphi, Heraclea/Tarentum, and Cnidus), there is no established ordering between them." CBMIBM (talk) 14:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

As I explained to you or your numerous sockpuppets earlier, that is a statement about the proposed future technical properties of the codepoint in Unicode, not about the historical status of the actual letter in the ancient alphabet. And anyway, why do you even care whether it has a separate article or not? It's treated, that's what matters, and it's treated in that article where it can be discussed in context. There's no law of nature we need a separate article just because somebody has said or hasn't said it was a separate entity at some point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I simply wanted to have Greek alphabet as extended as possible, thus I proposed that each separate Greek Unicode letter shall have separate article. For me letter to be separate, must have distinct sound meaning. Heta is for "H", and Eta is for "E". As you see, sounds are separate and different. CBMIBM (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit war in [Bulgaria]

There has been an edit war in Bulgaria. user:Lantonov, user:Gligan, and user:Laveol are back along with others. According to these users "the history of Bulgaria is best known by Bulgarians". They reject any sourced and verifiable additions to the article that go contrary to their POVs. These users also seem to follow my contributions to other articles and remove them. [24], [25],[26], [27], [28],[29], [30], [31], (also some comments and attacks can be read here: [32], Lantonov rejects verifiable source on the grounds that "this quote is his (the author's) personal opinion",[33],[34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41], and this one is simply a bigoted attack on a user who made the mistake of siding with me) --Nostradamus1 (talk) 05:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Please see that edit from User:Anton Tudor. I don't know how and where shall I report him for personal attacks, would you please make that? --Gligan (talk) 21:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

See that too:

If you're now in Sofia ask them about their low wages. All the Bulgarians dream to have Romanian standard of living. Since now Bulgaria is so cheap for Romanians a lot of them go shopping in Ruse. They also made some videos that can be seen in Youtube.com. Bulgaria for a Romanian looks 2 times oldish and backward: 1) because of the writting system, nobody can understand that oldish way of writting with letters hard to spell 2) there's nothing to attract you there, just backward poor "state" with lots of holes in the streets and corrupted policemens. 3) their language that sounds like Russian with ta-ta-ta-ta rythm, like a tractor ta-ta-ta-tata, very unmelodious and very annoying. 4) dirty everywhere, it stinks and smells bad. These people (with a lot of gypsy-bulgars) haven't discovered yet the soap and shampoo..or maybe it's too expensive. Bulgarian women also don't wash..:(( Anton Tudor (talk) 21:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, have you heard they don't use toilet paper? also, use turkish WC..An average Bulgarian consumes 4 times less soap and shampoo than a Romanian, as statistics confirm.--Anton Tudor (talk) 21:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This user is here to insult Bulgaria. --Gligan (talk) 21:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That (and then some) can be found on Kékrōps' talk page. BalkanFever 02:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Still, you gotta love that this guy criticizes a whole nation for using a "writting" system that he cannot understand. Not to mention "policemens". Methinks Anton Tudor or Bonnie or whoever this guy is should first try to familiarize himself with the English writing system.

'Nyway, don't mind me, I'm just passing through. See you guys around. Dahn (talk) 03:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Uhrana/Ohrana

You're going to have to take a look at the histories of both those pages. I'm pretty sure Revisionist just copy-pasted from the first to the second and then created a redirect. Have fun :)BalkanFever 02:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Arvanites

Arvanites are Albanians, not Greeks. Those who are assimilated consider themselves as Greeks and not Arvanites/Albanians. --83.177.66.237 (talk) 14:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocked him for 48 hours, and logged a topic-ban here. Crikey, if 3 years of edit-warring doesn't count as obsession, I don't know what does. Cheers, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem - I can't seem to work out who the other chap is, though. Enlighten me, please! Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, right. No more need be said. Will keep that in mind, thanks. Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

What is going on today?

That's got to be enough for one day, surely. Certainly a lot of people getting out of the wrong side of bed this morning.

I'm unlikely to be around a huge amount over the weekend, by the way, so until Monday you might be better off trying other admins for help if the fighting continues among the (few?) editors who aren't actually blocked. Cheers, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 17:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Aye, looking at it again you're right. I've left a note on his talk page cutting the time-expiry for the probation down from indefinite to a gentle two months (though one of his edit-summaries did perturb me a little). Thanks for the sanity check: on a day like this you really need it. Cheers, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Trying to clarify things on my talk page. Cheers BalkanFever 01:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Dokdo and Senkaku Islands

Could you explain to me the difference in Wikipedia NPOV policy between these two pages? I tried asking on both discussion pages to get bias gibberish and nonsensical comments, especially from a user called "opp2". Thank you. --DandanxD (talk) 02:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh and I also want to change my username. Is it possible to have all my history transferred to my new username? Thanks again. --DandanxD (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't see any recent talk activity on those pages involving you, so I have no idea what problems you are talking about. When and where did you intervene on those pages?

Changing usernames can be done at WP:CHU. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it should be in one of the archives considering it was several months ago (June~July 2007). I haven't checked the Dokdo page and was shocked (more like surprised) that it was changed back to the so-called NPOV name of "Liancourt Rocks." Anyway, my question is pretty simple- why is the NPOV name for Dokdo "Liancourt Rocks" while the NPOV name for Senkaku Islands is, well, "Senkaku Islands"? Doesn't this go against NPOV? Oh, and thank you for the answering my other question! --DandanxD (talk) 13:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see, the naming issue. The most boring part of it all. I'm not familiar with the processes that led to the decision in the Senkaku case. These things are decided on a case-by case basis, and should be. The only real policy-based criterion is what is most common in English. In the Liancourt case this criterion was complemented by the thought of using the one name that was neither Korean nor Japanese, to be on "neutral ground", but that was just an ad-hoc rule of convenience.

In general, naming issues like these are overestimated a lot. From the practical perspective of Wikipedia, it doesn't really matter a whole lot which name is chosen. It's far more important to have a stable name than to have the right name, whatever that is. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Countries bordering the European Union

I'd appreciate your input vis-à-vis User:Ignis Fatuus, who has taken it upon him/herself to revert repeatedly (and rather blindly) the version we agreed upon. They are the user's only edits over the past couple of days. In any case, there is no need to pipe the "established term" to (the inflammatory) "Macedonia", as you yourself acknowledged in your edit summary. And Northern Cyprus lost the "Turkish Republic of" from its title a while ago. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 15:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no serious objections against his interpretation that the context of "international borders" makes "Macedonia" alone sufficiently unambiguous that "Republic of" isn't needed here. I can live with "Republic of" as long as it's not "former Yugoslav", but I won't take sides in an edit war to enforce it over simple "Macedonia". Edit warring over Macedonian topics is a seriously bad idea these days, by the way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that I understand what you meant....

Unfortunately there is no Balkan sprachbund calque for that term... although since you mentioned it, we could have WP:BALKAN. Or even better, WP:BALKANFEVER :-P. BalkanFever 01:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is thanks to me...

...that you have learned many new things about Istanbul that you previously didn't know, so don't be so ungrateful. :) 151.57.177.124 (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What new things? The car brands that park in front of the cafeterias in Etiler? :-P Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

See what I mean - that's one of them :D 151.57.177.124 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Nowadays I'm more obsessed with Facebook, so don't worry :) 151.57.177.124 (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Formatting links

Thanks, just now starting to get the hang of it.

WP:RFCU

• I think you should know this result of a report on Opp2

Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Opp2 --Appletrees (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. I'm not sure, however, whether the identity Bright888 = Opp = Opp2 is enough for blocking Opp2 now. Opp was blocked as a sock account, but the user behind it wasn't banned. That's normal; we don't normally indef-ban main accounts because of sockpuppetry, except in egregious cases. Since he then stopped using Bright888 too when he started using Opp2, the result was basically just an account switch. And of course the sockpupptry back in 2006 as such is stale. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked through the whole contributions of Opp, Bright888, Opp2. I initially intended to report Opp2's possible block evasion from his sanction for his vandalism the day before yesterday. I was really annoyed by the racial and derogatory slur. But after finding out his another ip network provider (his work place), I just got to know that he connects to other accounts. I think in the light of his tendency to making abusive sock accounts in the past and his recent vandal activity (and near vandalism on cuisine related articles), he seems to have more accounts than just stale one. But per my previous experience to file RFCU reports, the checkuser systenm is not a magic to search and find or differentiate all socks. However honestly, I think he should've been blocked infinitely from English Wikipedia much earlier because of his disruptive POV pushing and you seem much milder on him compared to recently blocked editors for their contributions to Liancourt Rocks. You blocked them without any official report regarding their possible sockpuppetry even though they edited the article a few occasions within the short period time although they seemed unlikely new users and some disruption. However concerning all these matters, Opp2's contributions has caused more than mere disruption to community and that is not fair.

Besides, why would editors have to work with Opp2 who said "Fuck Korea, don't write on Korea"? You didn't catch how frequently he has made countless mockeries of Korean editors. He often says how Koreans irrational and absurdly against his (controversial) addition to the article regardless of no consensus or pre- discussion and say "Don't be emotional because you, Korean hwabyeong can't be cured easily. He hasn't changed his attitude since 2005 even after his blocks for sockpupptry was discovered. I think blocking him makes a sense based on his disruption. --Appletrees (talk) 09:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but the identity between Opp2 and the "Fuck Korea" vandal seems to me to be one thing that you haven't really proven. I'll keep my eyes open, and will be only too glad to block as soon as I get some clearer evidence, but right now it's still on shaky grounds as far as I can see. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Then, I have to request the admin to clarify whether Opp2 made the comment with his ip. Generally, checkusers don't mention on ip address for privacy reason. However, he proves himself to uses plara network as revealing his ip addresses in so many occasions. And also I request to see if there has any possibility for him to have more accounts. --Appletrees (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher say that "all the others are Unrelated." It was proven that I was not Bright888. "Opp" had blocked without Check user. I declares that Opp is not Bright888. It has been understood that the reason for the Opp's block is a mistake by admin. Thank you.--Opp2 (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I can see that you were denying you were Bright888, but not that this was acknowledged by the blocking administrators. Have a link for that? But in any case, the way I see that case, it doesn't really matter much either way.

However, let me warn you, if I see any evidence that the anon POV vandals from your ISP are in fact you, you're out, and for good. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your threat warn. However, I cannot take the responsibility for my ISP, because a lot of people are using. I do not become IP user, except when I forget login. The result of Check user proves that. I think that your comment at Check user and here is almost personal attack and bad face. --Opp2 (talk) 07:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The checkuser did't clarify your relation with the ip vandal yet. And how did you find out the vandal's appearance and revert the article to the vandal's revision? As far as I've known the ISP is not commonly used in Japan unlike ODN, OCN or BBCEXITE or others. --Appletrees (talk) 11:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, for all I can see he didn't actually revert to the anon's revision at the abacus article. [42]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I reverted to the version of IP first. [43] However, I judged that that version was more appropriate. I never use makeshift measures.--Opp2 (talk) 12:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

At first, I thought so. But after that revision, he removed all Korean mention from the article which suits the vandal's version. Oddly, the IP vandal did contribute some amount of info unlike his vandal activities on the other articles.

The below is clear circumstantial evidences.

• Opp2 uses 2 ISP at home and work. (plara.ne.jp and CITIE)
• Opp2 hadn't edited the abacus article at all until two days ago
• The ISP that the vandal's using is plara which is not commonly used in Japan.
• The vandal removed all Korean mentions from two fruit articles with racial slurs.
• 6 hours after the vandal was banned, Opp2 suddenly appeared at the abacus article.
• The article also has some J-K conflicts between User:Nanami Kamimura and several editors. (I haven't checked their contribution history). The former is a main contributor to Japanese section and refused to include or combine Korean abacus with it. According to the user page, the editor is a Japanophile.
• Unless Nanami Kamimura or the IP vandal is Opp2, Opp2's appearance seems unnatural. But if Opp2 is Nanami Kamimura, Opp2 may abuse account policy.
• His appearance seems overlapped with his work hour per the time record.

I don't see why these evidences are unclear in your mind. --Appletrees (talk) 12:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't know whether Opp2 was really active at that time or not. I filed the report, because my speculation is valid based on his disruptive POV pushing and past reports on him. I wonder why Opp2 didn't request to checkusers to re-check the sock accusation and pleaded to lift the sanction. I don't buy Opp2's saying because I found out yesterday that Opp2 has kept his name as Opp at Japanese wikipedia ever since he was banned for the sockpupptry accusation. He knows how the labeling is bad for his reputation. Besides, Forestfarmer, and Jjok knows Opp is Opp2 and others.--Appletrees (talk) 15:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The number of members of Prara is 2.46 million people.[44] It is a major provider in Japan. I think that this information becomes help of your witch hunting. --Opp2 (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Opp2, witch hunt? Thank for the careful wording this time because you didnt' at least say to me like "mentally disable" or "so emotional" and "hwabyeong" patient", and "Han (cultural)" unlike as your usual slurs whenever somebody object to your opinion. Your past sockpuppetry and same pattern of your broken English and same appearance at the abacus article are all coicidence? I don't think so. You will have to keep in mind that all user's comment and contributions here are recorded. And you didn't provide your rationale for Opp either.--Appletrees (talk) 08:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Although 220.109.35.220 is a Plala IP address, certain features make it look more like Azukimonaka/Orchis29/KoreanShoriSenyou. Since Opp2 admits using Plala I can confirm that he seems to use Plala at home and another IP at work. It is difficult to pin down exactly what is going on but one explanation consistent with most of the data is that there are 4 different PCs and internet connection methods here which can generally be associated with Amazonfire, Opp2 at home/work, and Azukimonaka/Orchis29/KoreanShoriSenyou. However seeing Azukimonaka-like patterns on Plala is a new twist. Whether these three groups really represent one, two or three people, and whether they intentionally coordinate or have found each other by coincidence, is not knowable by checkuser. Some admins will ultimately have to apply the duck test, I think. Thatcher 07:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for the welcome. --Hegumen (talk) 11:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thispoems

Hello. The excellent Thispoems reminds me of an older wiki user, namely Taulant23. Is there any way of checking if that is so? As for the map he added, I'm almost sure I've seen it before on various sites, but since I can't confirm it 100% yet (who knows, it might be his own work on those sites anyhow), I'll just throw it as an idea instead of an accusation. Any help on the former matter would be appreciated, though. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello

If I say NO Fut.Perf., I am not sockpuppet,that means I am sockpuppet.What you taught me today was,do not argue in a disruptive way,same as the map disccusion right? even if I think it should be kept.(it's a good map,maybe not perfect). As for my english I know, I suck at it but I speak fluent Italian and Albanian. Does that make a bad Wikipedian?

Hope you're having a great day and thank you.--Thispoems (talk) 19:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

p.s. I love your cat

Principality of Pindus

Can you please take a look at this? User:Balkanfreezer has on more than one occasion copy pasted the content from Principality of Pindus and Voivodship of Macedonia and created a redirect. He doesn't seem to want to listen to anyone who reverts the move. I tried to calm him down a while back but it seems not to have worked. BalkanFever 10:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion had already taken place in the talk page and we agreed on the proper title PRINCIPALITY OF PINDUS as it is stated in the reliable sources Balkanfreezer (talk) 21:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Only two reliable english sources..in the article and here is the proper title [45] [46] Balkanfreezer (talk) 21:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. In such cases, you just need to ask an admin to do it for you, rather than mess around with copy-and-pasting and redirects. If this is indeed consensus, I can carry out the move for you. I'll just wait a day or two to see if there are any more objections that I haven't seen yet. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I also don't object to (properly) moving the page, and neither is User:Koppany, who contributed the bulk of the article, but the abrupt copy-pasting had to be reverted. BalkanFever 00:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Isnt this?

Isnt this fellow a sockpuppet of a familiar person? [47]

[48]same method expression and purpose [49]Megistias (talk) 08:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

User:85.72.173.36

Hey! Can you look at the edits of this user in Olympiacos F.C.? They are clearly POV. Could you help? - Sthenel (talk) 13:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! You are always so kind to me. You would like to ban me totally, because I revert such edits. Who knows maybe some day you can do this. - Sthenel (talk) 07:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

For clarifying things in "Great Albania" article, is possible still that name change:-).Dodona--Burra (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

David Saks

The potential problem with the David Saks issue is that all of his fan base may be classified as one editor. This will have the effect of disenfranchising all editors with an interest in David Saks. If this is the result, then Wikipedia is not acting fairly.

What if there was a hypothetical dispute between fans of the band Ruder Than You and others. If Wikipedia makes the wrong determination that User:RuderThanYouFan is a sock and all editors supporting the band are the sock of one users, then the anti-band people will be the only ones left. There is the potential for manipulation by the anti-band people.

We have to be careful that the Ruder than You scenario does not happen with David Saks. Previously there was at least 2 checkuser proven editors who were in support of David Saks. I am concerned that we are disregarding the checkuser and wrongly saying that two users are one.

I am further concerned that you have decided only on one SSP, one which I was trying to calm tensions, just because of your opposition of me. Some may call this stalking. I'd say, in the interest of Wikipedia, keep that user in mind and not attack him because of me. Archtransit (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I freely admit I was led to that SSP report because I was checking what you were up to. Apart from that, it's an absolutely open-and-shut case. There's not a snowball's chance in hell this sock is not a sock of the banned user. If you want to take this further, take it to ANI. Your reaction only confirms my opinion of your poor judgment and your unsuitability for the admin job. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

User RFC?

You have failed to identify the action that you object to. Therefore, you have failed to attempt to resolve the problem prior to RFC.

Identify which block you object you and let me try to resolve the situation. Archtransit (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It's no longer an issue about individual blocks. People have been explaining to you what was wrong with each. The issue is that you aren't learning from it. You make the same mistake again the next day. Therefore, "resolving" this situation or that won't help you now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If each individual block was proper then there is no basis for a RFC. Identify which blocks you feel is improper. I have already made comments on which blocks I would not have done in retrospect and have not made similar blocks subsequently. Filing of an improper RFC may be seen as contentious editing. Archtransit (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Lost in translation

Future Perfect at Sunrise: Hi. I noticed that you have had exchanges with Orkh in the past. I was hoping that you might be able to keep an eye on Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm over the next couple of days. Orkh is concerned that Turkish speakers may get lost on their way to this page and has proposed a fix which upsets the first two paragraphs. I have tried to reassure him but believe something is getting lost in translation: he has now twice reverted to his muddled version and probably a third time under the ip address 85.100.172.192. Can you help? Regards, Aramgar (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Boogification

Thank you. Pairadox (talk) 06:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms for Greek places

Dear FutPerf Please help advice, interfere, and participate. (I am begging!!) The article that was deleted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places reappeared (with a shorter list of names.) And with a highly controversial source!!! {A book from the extreme Slavic-Macedonian Historiography!!! (Todor Hristov Simovski).} Please refer to the talk page of the article!! Thank you for your time Seleukosa (talk) 11:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you fopr your quick respond!!! (that was fast!!!!!!) please refer to the talck page. I add some more to it.

By the way my the same article appears as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_toponyms_of_places_in_Imathia_Prefecture Is this something usual??? ??????? Seleukosa (talk) 12:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Please refer again to the talk page of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places#Why_this_article_reapeared.3F.3F.3F.3F.3F

Dear Future my keyboard is ok!! I put multiple (!!!!) or (?????) as an emphasis!! (it is not done by accident!!) I put many (!!!!!!) In order to show what impresses me a lot ! And question marks (?????) were I feel the question is stronger! I hope you don’t receive it as an insult??? It is only the way I speak!! (is there any wikipedia rule against it? If so then forgive me!) Seleukosa (talk) 11:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

lynch mob

Fut.Perf., I really believe that I deserved a response on AN/I about your "lynch mob" comment. Given both the meaning of the phrase lynch mob and the racial connotations associated with it, I found your use of the term offensive. Jay*Jay (talk) 13:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe that was a bit strong, I apologise if I offended you. As for "racial connotations", obviously I had nothing of the sort in mind; if there should be any racial sensitivity touched upon as regards your conflict with that Sanchez guy I truly have no idea about it. Anyway, what I meant was that his "offense" was being met with an amount of collective exitedness that was rather disproportionate to its seriousness. People had jumped on it on at least four different threads and were meeting his – apparently perfectly understandable and legitimate – attempts at getting his images fixed with an amount of aggressiveness that seemed to be motivated by grudges rather than a matter-of-fact concern about copyright policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

IMO, "lynch mob" is an utterly unacceptable term to use against one (or more) editors who are simply pointing out that an ArbCom remedy has been breached. I am pleased that you have apologised "if you offended me", but I think the AN/I comment should stricken, as I was not the only one you described as part of a "mob", or some other comment added to that thread - because that is where the comment was made.

I don't know whether you are familiar with Matt's editing history, but he has repeatedly ignored warnings and bans, and when unblocked to participate in the case took to making small edits to other areas to see if he would be caught. There are evidently a group of people unwilling to give an inch because Matt's record shows he will keep pushing. I accept that this may look disproprtionate to you, but (as Newyorkbrad indicated at the AN/I discussion) Matt's actions made his concurrent indefinite community ban and ArbCom one year ban unavoidable. As I said at WP:AE, "give a mouse a cookie...". Without his history, the reaction would not have been as strong - but then, without his history, he wouldn't have been banned.

Regarding his image, the Columbia photo that was removed and whose provenance is in dispute would be fine, provided the copyright can be sorted out. The one he asked to have removed (on the grounds of identity theft) has been removed because, contrary to Matt's claim, he does not the copyright over the image. The suggested militarised substitute is hardly "neutral" nor consistent with WP:NPOV. I agree that Matt should be able to comment on the article relating to him, but at present going to ArbCom or OTRS are the only venues available. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, you might like to look at / comment on my recent post to the ArbCom discussion page here. It suggests an option that would allow Matt to raise concerns in a nono-disruptive and policy-compliant manner (if ArbCom were to implement the suggestion). Jay*Jay (talk) 03:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's agree!

The RFC page says

Disputes should be archived under any of the following circumstances:
1. If no additional complaints are registered for an extended period of time, and the dispute appears to have stopped.
2. The parties to the dispute agree.
3. The dispute proceeds to another method of dispute resolution, such as mediation or arbitration.

We have no option to keep the RFC open indefinitely. Eventually, it must go to the archives, possibly after 30 days (March 2008).

I think 3 is potentially confrontational and may not achieve your goals in the best way.

I think 1 is a potential conclusion. It requires that you do nothing.

I think 2 is a nice and friendly way to conclude the RFC. Let's agree! A simple, non-confrontational agreement could be "After discussion, the 2 certifiers and Archtransit have agreed to end the RFC". The Ryan Postlethwaite Accords (like Oslo Accords?) or Ryan Agreement can be the framework so that I can declare peace in our time. Archtransit (talk) 21:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Closing that RfC is not my call to make. If a consensus should emerge that mentorship with Ryan is a satisfactory solution, then so be it. At this time, personally, I must confess I'm still rather skeptical about that scheme, and would prefer a good clean stepping down. I certainly don't feel comfortable with the idea of having you anywhere near admin tasks that involve making judgments of other users' behaviour, such as blocks, unblocks, block reviews, 3RR handling, or page protections. And I must say that your actions around block reviews yesterday (User talk:Ecoleman56) haven't increased my confidence either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears that you are not aware of events about User:Ecoleman56. I did not unblock him. After extensive discussion with him by e-mail, I believe he is no longer angry. This is achievement. Archtransit (talk) 23:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Working Group login

Hi Future Perfect at Sunrise, just letting you know I've sent an email (via the English Wikipedia email function) to you with details about your Working Group wiki login details. Be sure to change your password once you log in, for security reasons! If there's any problems with the login (passwords, username not working, or anything), fire me an email and I'll try and sort them out for you. Looking forward to working with you as a fellow group member! Cheers, Daniel (talk) 03:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms

I am working on other prefectures, and will transclude them as well unless others think links would be better. It seems to be one of two choices: 1) a series of links to the various prefectures articles; 2) a transclusion of them all. Because there is only one at the moment, transclusion seemed the obvious choice so that there was more than just a single link that looked like a half-assed attempt to recreate the page (I have talked with the deleting admin so the issues of why it was deleted are resolved) rather than something substantive. I'd be interested in whether you agree (a) for now; (b) going forward when there are a few prefectures articles. Typing in all the Greek and Cyrillic and checking and rechecking against the source is time consuming so these won't be coming out several per day. :-( Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

MOSMAC

Can you please give your 2c worth at the talk page about unquestionable clarity? Thanks. BalkanFever 13:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In a hilarious twist of events, you were faster than me lol. BalkanFever 13:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thessaloniki lead

I've reopened discussion of the lead, at talk:Thessaloniki#Reopen disambiguation discussion. We reached a compromise that seemed to satisfy all, and I am proposing we return to it. Jd2718 (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Vergina Sun

Can you please take a look at User:The Cat and the Owl and his repeated adding of a redundant sentence to Vergina Sun? Thanks BalkanFever 08:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Albanians as Pelasgians

Support me in this statement, feel free and for modifications:

-Johann Georg von Hahn connected the pre-Indo-European Pelasgian language with Albanian.

Pelasgic inscriptions (like Lemnos steal, “Dipylon inscription” )were translated with Albanian language, this were considered fringe by some scholars and supported by some others. ..

The theories which link Albanian with Thracian language add further to this point, since Thracians are considered by some scholars as Pelasgian tribe . Albanian is identified as the descendent of Illyrian, but Hamp (1994a) argues that the evidence is too meager and contradictory for us to know whether the term Illyrian even referred to a single language. Thracian has also been adduced as a possible ancestor of Albanian (Fine 1983, 10, 11), from where the term Thraco–Illyrian-Epiriot is derivated. Albanian ethnography and symbolic proved to be originated from Pelasgians by some international reputations’ Albanians’ modern historiographs Dhimiter Pilika. , Spiro Konda, Muzafer Xhaxhiu-Dodona (talk) 12:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sentence 1 is complete nonsense: If "Pelasgian" was "pre-Indo-European", then by definition it could not be linked with Albanian, because Albanian is Indo-European. No linguist in their right mind could have proposed such a ridiculous idea.
• Sentence 2 presupposes that the Lemnos steles and the Dipylon inscription are "Pelasgic". In the case of the Lemnos steles, that's questionable at best. The dominant opinion these days is that the Lemnos steles are in a language closely related to Etruscan. To assume that this is part of what classical Greek writers would have understood by "Pelasgic" is a leap of faith. As for the Dipylon inscription, that is simply beyond ridiculous. That inscription is Greek, period. Anybody who claims otherwise has no idea what they are talking about. Come on, we have an article on the thing, read it. Read the inscription. Even you can recognise what language it's in. Anybody who can talk about "Albanian" readings of that text with a straight face as a serious decipherment attempt is ipso facto not a reliable source.
• Sentence 3: "... add further to this point ..." ? To what point please? and in what way do they "add" to it? You know what, your mistake is, you are drawing together all sorts of hypotheses and then assume that they fit together and support each other. They don't. So, A says Pelasgian is Greek. B says Pelasgian is Thracian. C says Pelasgian is Etruscan. D says Pelasgian is Albanian. From this you conclude that Albanian is Greek? Wrong. These hypotheses are mutually exclusive. They can't be all true at once. If one is true, the others are automatically false. But most likely, they are all false anyway.
• I repeat, please just stop talking about Pelasgian and ancient languages. No way you'll ever get through with this. You are now acting like a disruptive editor, and that's a thing that could get you banned again. Please read that page carefully, it's important for you if you want to stay on this project. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I mention only secondary sources that’s all, not said by me,I have to say I am sorry that you do not be so hard to some other user which behave bed at least even abuse how much percent is their territory belong a special tribe instances Epiriotes ( I still do not know why ?) , else I think Greek they speak different dialects to say at least, can you tell me your opinion for Epirotic language? Albanian as Pelasgians are mention from many authors, we have just to point out. So you can not leave Albanian as Pelasgians with just one sentence from all this academic work which it is been done. --Dodona (talk) 19:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Interaction is a part of discussion and you seem to lack understanding of what Future has written or simply ignore it.It happens on all pages and it takes more than 1 admin and many users to tell it to you but you simply ignore them and carry on.Megistias (talk) 20:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well thank you for your advice you are so kind and so developed , you must be Greek too.--Dodona (talk) 20:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sarcastic insults to other editors are out of order; bringing their ethnic/national background into the discussion is even further out of order.

If you have a source that shows that there is some notable literature claiming explicitly (not via your own theorizing) that Albanian and Pelasgian are somehow linked, perhaps it could reasonably added to the "fringe theories" section. It is not enough that author A claims that x=y and author B claims that x=z to conclude that authors A and B believe that y=z. --Macrakis (talk) 20:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, nice to see you Macrakis, and thanks for helping in trying to adjust some clue levels here... Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm not kind and developed, and I tell you that you continuously abuse several persons' good faith and time. I'm surprised you're not indef banned from Wiki yet.--   Avg    20:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry if I insulted you but i was insulted first several times from this users , I very well collaborate with some Greek editors but this is not the case unfortunately with some others. Overall I feel that I can collaborate with Greek editors and I have been working to provide new references and sources to prove my argument, that of course taking in consideration the "misnaming" they are not that different after all. --Dodona (talk) 20:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

When?Megistias (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Its pretty tiring these repeated "tactics" of yours Dodona.Users tell you something,Admins tell you something and you dont listen to either you just keep at it.Megistias (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Many times, you just delete everything I write, you have a strong bias this is just because it is Albanian mention and not Greek, i would not mention the names you use for Albanians and insults them calling Turkish, Islamic etc Even we gave the impression to other users that we can not collaborate Greek and Albanian users please see [50]--Dodona (talk) 21:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dodona, have you ever considered that perhaps people might be reverting your edits not because they dislike Albanians but because your edits are just not very good? Have you ever considered that people reject your arguments not because they come from an Albanian but because your arguments are not very convincing? Seriously, please read that page I told you, Wikipedia:disruptive editing, and then tell me exactly why I should not think that page describes you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have done a lot of work providing modern and reliable references at least you can appreciated them overall( did you count them? ), I can not pretend that I am good, no one is , that is why we are here , to learn and share .All against me, is not decent ! --Dodona (talk) 21:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The above link is incriminating against your ways.You just did the same thing again.I have never insulted Albanians on any basis religious or ethnical.You have a problem in wikipedia not me.Megistias (talk) 21:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This sockpuppet and other...[51]Megistias (talk) 21:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Your mentor,admins and users have been answering you for a long time now.Your beliefs are your own.Your sources are for the most part irrelevant & fringe theories.Above Future tells you and explains you these things on how you wrongly combine things in your mind but you just keep at it even here.Megistias (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Oxford online modern references are fringe because they do not suit you ?! --Dodona (talk) 21:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think is not use to continue any more, this disccusion is over.--Dodona (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You can see peoples opinions above about your activities and your stance.Any effort to aid you see how things are is in vain.Megistias (talk) 21:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This cannot go on forever and it needs to be stopped.Megistias (talk) 21:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, can everybody please now give that yellow bar on the top of my screen a rest, unless they have something fundamentally new to say? Thanks. I understand this case is now being dealt with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

A quick request

Since you're the one most familiar with the Frighner subject, could you make a quick check on Kobra85. He hasn't done anything too worrying so far, but here he says he's from Perth (and says it in Macedonian, not in English for some reason). I think Frighner was from Perth as well (although I cannot check this as he apparently has deleted his Userpage). And just as Frightner Kobra is interested in hip-hop (besides Macedonia). --Laveol ^T 12:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You know I already told you who I was, remember? But thus far I have made no racial assertions toward anyone, and have avoided verbal confrontation with concerned parties. I may have made several edits on Macedonian history articles, aimed at enhancing the article's encyclopedic quality, thought nothing that would entice an ethnic/historic debate. Köbra⁸⁵ 13:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, ok. So you are him :) or you are you, I have to say. As long as you're not in any wars and are not insulting anyone. Although I still remember some of what you said and I don't think I'll forget it regarding my attitude towards you. --Laveol ^T 13:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I quite understand what you are referring to... Köbra⁸⁵ 13:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah right...--Laveol ^T 13:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

No seriously, I'm struggling... help me out here. Köbra⁸⁵ 13:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I thought you meant you never forgot what a said to you about your attitude towards me, but I see now that that isn't what you meant. Don't sweat it, I've dropped the 'nationalist agenda' because it obviously gets nowhere. Köbra⁸⁵ 13:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Grow up Laveol. BalkanFever 03:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

CBMIBM

Thanks, I guess. -- Evertype·✆ 13:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I finally choose for my main account CBMIBM account, and abandon Wikinger account, thus please soft-block Wikinger account and don't block CBMIBM account. CBMIBM (talk) 20:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Janos Kurko

I wanted to thank you for your earlier action concerning User:Janos Kurko. I do not know if it is appropriate to contact you here about administrative requests, but if so, I would like to ask if you could again intervene: the problem is as bad as it was. I am afraid to keep reverting, lest I break 3RR, but I don't know what there is left to do...

Thank you for your time. Korossyl (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!!! Korossyl (talk) 22:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano categories

Hi, five months ago you said that we should wait before moving Category:South Tyrol to Category:Province of Bolzano-Bozen (and others). Do you think we can go on now? By the way, I would also suggest to put a category redirect instead of deleting the old category. What do you think?--Supparluca 07:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah yeah, sorry, forgot to answer this one. I really have no opinion on this. What's the state of opinions? If there's a danger that it will lead to new edit-wars, I'd keep my hands off it. The exact naming of those categories is really of much less importance than people on either side of the debate seem to feel.

As for category redirects, I'm not sure: As per Wikipedia:Redirect#Category redirects they don't really do anything, and if you want to rely on that bot mechanism described there, it's risky because it will entail the bot making edits in article space that some people will still find contentious. Better to make a clean recategorisation and delete the old one. But you can't do that without a decision on WP:CFD, so please, in any case, first go there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I know, and I tried, but there's a mindless opposition, and I can't understand why the closing admins just take the number of votes into account.--Supparluca 10:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Abecedar

There was a massive edit war today involving new user MacedonianBoy and Megistias, among others. It seems the guy who started this was User:MacedonianX. BalkanFever 10:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Uh-oh. Children, just wait till Daddy comes home and teaches you the ABC... Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not scared. I've been a good wittle boy. :) BalkanFever 10:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Unblock request

Hi there,

OK, I will just comment on them... leave it for the admins to decide!

--The Helpful One 15:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Working group

Hi Tariqabjotu, I haven't seen you yet over at the new working group ([52]). Would be great if we could get the whole team together soon so we can get seriously active. See you around, Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, okay, thanks. I didn't realize we moved beyond the setting things up and ironing out the kinks phase. -- tariqabjotu 22:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Eyes open

Could I ask you to keep an eye on Template:Countries of Europe? Avg and I appear to have found a compromise on the Macedonia naming issue there, but more hot-headed editors may be an issue... -- ChrisO (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've asked the question elsewhere, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate it. Do you want "Republic of Macedonia" banned from country templates? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Rather than have this discussion in multiple locations, let's keep it in one place where everyone can see it. I'll reply at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). -- ChrisO (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation

Note that you replied before I had a chance to. Here is a full translation:

Heading: Calm down a bit.

Me: I don't even know if Fut. Perf. is on the internet to unblock Raso. You have a point that it isn't fair that some Greeks are not blocked, but you and your friend re not allowed to call the Bulgarians "Tatars" and whatnot, because nobody wants racists here. With that kind of stuff you give Bulgarians and Greeks the right to beat up/cane the Macedonian users.

Him: I am calm, I am just discussing history and historical-linguistic facts. But for he who is Tatar or sub Saharan they know for themselves I don't have to say anything, n'est-ce pas [dunno english calque]. Greetings to you and thank you because I see that you are one of the few realistic people on this Wiki.

You: translation please

Him: just discussing

Me: (edit conflict) Thank you, but whatever they are genetically, call them Greeks and Bulgarians. You have to be better than them, don't reply with their words [referring to Skopjan/Fyromian and whatnot] - because the people who care are the admins, and they will see who is right.

Him: Ok everything is sorted I won't drop down to that level but even if I have it has been out of anger/hot-headedness. Greetings.

Do you need anything else?BalkanFever 11:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a convention that requires "Makedoncite" to be capitalised, as opposed to "grcite" and "bugarite"? Just something I picked up on in your original comment. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am trying to elevate the status of the Macedonians by putting Bulgarians and Greeks in lower case. I definitely did not just do it, as I have the time to think of the most elaborate schemes to insult people. And now my oh-so intricate plan has been undone by a definitely-not-paranoid user. Ask yourself, which one from the two us consistently dodges using self-identifying terms - capitalised or otherwise? BalkanFever 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Arghh. You guys are terrible. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you'll now tell us that "sub-saharan" and "Skopjan" are on the same level. Right. I also noticed that "sub-saharan" wasn't even allowed the dignity of capitalisation. Lucky Tatars. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the word "Greek" offends me so much that I want to sit in a corner and cry all day. Which is why I use the word sub-saharan on talk pages and in edit summaries all the time, in the interest of free speech. And I don't care what anyone says because I am God's child and I am always right. That is why it is perfectly OK for me to dictate the self-identification of you people. BalkanFever 03:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but as Kekrops does not want to give me a translation on my talk page, could you? Also note what I suspect to be Greek written in Cyrillic. BalkanFever 22:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, "απαξιώ"? Literally, "I can't be bothered" (i.e. to respond). Something like "shrug." And the other word was "Το πρώτο, εννοείται", meaning "The former, of course". You didn't miss anything important. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I wish

The only time in my life that i wished i had learned Arvanitika talk in albanianMegistias (talk) 15:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

If the above talk is related to this numbered user that incites edit war with original research against tons of primary and secondary sources to the opossite and pretending he cant read its prtty clear.userMegistias (talk) 16:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You are too lenient.Pelasgians talk has been spammed beyoned belief and despite warnings from several admins Dodona doenst stop.Megistias (talk) 12:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please try to keep the Dodona and the PelasgicMoon issue apart. These are separate users and need different treatment. Please also note that I am hindered from just simply taking any admin action I want, by the rule that admins should be "uninvolved" when doing blocks and the like. As for Dodona, I've said repeatedly I'm skeptical if this experiment of a second chance can go anywhere, but I'm afraid we shouldn't re-ban him until it has been made overwhelmingly clear even to himself that his edits are rejected by the community at large, not just by some Greek nationalists - otherwise he'll feel treated unjustly and only start sockpuppeting again. Which well be worse than what he's doing now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I adhere to rules regarding sources he does not.And direct the "Greek nationalists" epithet somewhere else.Admins and non Greek users have rejected all his "views" in the past and present and his opinion comprises of spamming the same rejected material all over again.Megistias (talk) 13:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have used quotation marks around that phrase, that was supposed to render D's perspective. And speaking about repeating things all over again, you don't need to repeat your exasperation with D all over again either. I know what he does. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You are spamming pages with nervousness and disrespect, you behave like this to all Albanian, I think you are racist toward us, and you could not have Albanian origin as you once declared, you even changed what I wrote against Serbian views --Dodona (talk) 12:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I know what you wish!

You wish indecently to block me, i am not that user and i am not and i will not use different account because i do not need. --Dodona (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Next i suggest to start learn Arvanitika as fast you understand that as better is for you --Dodona (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Chaonians

a) Meh, fine. Unprotect.

b) Still, I prefer my version of the first paragraph. It's compact and elegant. DS (talk) 15:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Rollback request

I think I can be considered a trusted user. I currently use the undo function which is a frustrating at times. As a reasonably experienced member, I understand the rules and regulations about this function, and will not abuse it. Thanks for your consideration, PeterSymonds | talk 19:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It was granted :) sorry to trouble you. PeterSymonds | talk 21:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Mavronjoti sockpuppetry revisited

Hi Future. He is up to his old tricks again. Here is the case: Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Mavronjoti. Sorry for the intrusion. Dr.K. (talk) 00:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

REvert parol

Is this automatic? how did i breach it? Isnt supposedly the system limiting me?Megistias (talk) 11:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Please read again what Moreschi told you the other day. You are not allowed to revert more than once on a single page per day, and you have to accompany every revert with constructive discussion on talk. No, the system doesn't technically limit you, just as it doesn't stop everybody else from breaching WP:3RR. It's everybody's own responsibility. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I just roundkicked myself in the faceMegistias (talk) 12:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny

I couldn't help but laugh at this statement you made on Megistias's discussion page:

Now look at what you have done to the Chaonians article. This article is now literally screaming, in bold letters: "X is true! X is true!!! X is true!!!!!!! Here, look at it!!!! I have evidence that X is true!!! It's truuuuuuueeeee!"

Just so you know, I wouldn't worry about the Chaonians article. I cleaned it up and made sure everything was organized and streamlined. To be honest, I am quite happy that Megistias added so many reliable sources in order to validate his arguments. Even though Megistias is stubborn (remind you of anyone?), he does make valid points. This is not to say, however, that Dodona is not making an honest effort in terms of adhering to Wikipedia policies. As you well know, I am doing all that I can to help Dodona improve (I honestly appreciate the respect Dodona has towards my advice, which does prove to an extent that his "besa" does exhibit signs of integrity).

I guess the question both of us have to ultimately ask is, "How far do we go as mentor and administrator in terms of helping one user improve at the cost of agitating others?" I think I sort of answered this question on Dodona's discussion page. Then again, I may have to rephrase the question. Deucalionite (talk) 19:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is exactly the question. The frustration of the last few weeks has not only driven people like Megistias to distraction, this now also backfires on other new Albanian users (like that Mavronjoti guy) who get all the heat from Megistias and friends for the frustration caused by someone else. :-( But still, as Dbachmann said yesterday, he was making a somewhat improved good-faith attempt, and his draft today on Talk:Epirus (region) was the closest approaching sense I've seen from him so far.

I like your suggestion best though: Why can't he just go and edit something different for a change? I seem to remember he used to do Albanian football players from time to time when he was an IP. Or let him do Albanian rivers. Albanian villages. Albanian novels. Albanian folk music. Whatever... Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if Dodona would accept my suggestions since he has yet to respond to the message I left on his discussion page. I would greatly appreciate your support in convincing Dodona to commit his energies towards enhancing other Albania-related articles.

On a sidenote, I think I may have found a possible reason for Dodona's behavior pertaining to establishing links between Albanians, Illyrians, Pelasgians, ancient Greeks, etc. If you read the "Folkloric origins" section of the Cham Albanians article, then that in of itself would partially explain why Dodona is so focused on articles regarding ancient cultures and tribes. Then again, I could very well be wrong. All I am doing is simply "reading between the lines of broken English" if you know what I mean.

What are your thoughts? Deucalionite (talk) 20:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Albanians/Illyrians

Hi, I edit a lot on Balkan topics, but I'm only vaguely aware that there's a dispute over whether the Illyrians are ancestors of the Albanians. I've come across a new article (Albanian words with Illyrian cognates) that strikes me as a POV fork, but I don't know enough about linguistics or this dispute to be sure. I asked Moreschi to take a look at it, but didn't hear back. Could you take a look at the article, or do you know a reputable editor I could ask? Thanks! // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 06:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the notice. As far as I see, that material was factored out from Albanian language into this new subarticle by User:Lisa the Sociopath, who also trimmed it down to the most linguistically reliable items. I generally trust Lisa, despite her username she's actually a very competent editor on ancient linguistics. Unlike many others she really reads and understands technical historical linguistics stuff. The article as it is now needs a bit better sourcing still (especially, who "considers" these words related), but the contents strike me as quite plausible overall. I definitely remember having read the "re"-'fog' etymology myself somewhere in the literature. If you want another informed sanity check, User:Dbachmann would be the person to ask. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

No worries, I trust your judgment. Thanks! // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 07:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Arben Llalla

(Moved here from Talk:Ioannis Kapodistrias)

Taulant, can you please have a look at this page [53] and help me with the Albanian a bit. In the first section on that page, the guy is discussing a Byzantine inscription, which he claims he can decipher in Albanian. I'd like to know what kind of object he claims to have found that text on. (Note: It's pretty clear the man is completely clueless, but I want to know that detail first. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Its this Byzantine Greek inscription.Linguist."how a supposed Illyrian inscription unearthed a century ago in Albania turned out to be Byzantine Greek mistakenly read backwards 401)".Megistias (talk) 08:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL. It's certainly something of that sort, but are you sure it's that one exactly? The middle word in the inscription Llalla cites doesn't look read backwards, it's pretty much forwards, don't you think? :-) (It's obviously "επικαλουμένη"; the guy can't tell a Delta from a Lamda and doesn't know what an Omicron-Ypsilon ligature is...) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

And the words around it would be something involving "του υιου", right? Arrrgh, please, someone dig out a photograph of that object for us! Just for the lulz. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is 'God's grace help Anna' and to that effect.This is the inscription he is talking and the same one.Megistias (talk) 08:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, somehow I can't parse that together with the words he quotes. Can you give me the Greek? How do you know it's the same one the book review is talking about? Just curious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no other Byzantine inscription that was "mistakenly" read like that.That one made a stir.And the "lekamadhi" guy didn't even bother to show an image or change the Byzantine font. Megistias (talk) 08:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but since the supply of fools is abundant, the supply of falsely transcribable inscriptions is also, to all practical intents and purposes, limitless, don't you think? :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually since the lekamadhi is evidently a fool there is no reason to fill this Kapodistrias talk page with irrelevant talk.I suggest we clean it up and stay on the Kapodistrias issue.Megistias (talk) 08:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. :-) But it might be useful to keep a reference to that guy around, because we've probably hit close to the home of several other of the not-so-terribly-reliable memes that have been floating around here among Albanian contributors. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: In fact, it's a different case. The one about "help Anna" that you'd heard of is discussed here [54], and it's a different text (and the Illyrian interpretation was a far more serious proposal, by no less a linguist than Krahe.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well guys, he is right, Greeks do not have letter C in their alphabet. ΑΝΝΙΑΤωΥΙω, ΕΠΙΚΑΔωΜΝΗ, ΜΗCΧAΡΙΝ- in Albanian- LAJM I FUNDIT, ANA BIJA E MIHALIT RRIN NË KËTË DHOMË VARRI. He links it with Albanian language but I am not that convinced.It means(in broken english) “last news, Anna,the daughter of Mihal,is in this grave". The most mesmerizing thing is when he talks about the new evidence from the 6th century found in Mesaplik near Vlora/Albania. Writing in a mosaique of stones. It is a clear evidence of Albanian culture in the past. Which it writes "A ΠΑR ΚΕ ΑC” in Albanian A PAR KE AC.It's a old Albanian proverb, my grandma used to say it to me all the times.Sorry if it took so long but I have been searching for it.Watch these too[55]--Taulant23 (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That is Byzantine Greek and yes it had C in its alhabet as well.Megistias (talk) 09:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol. Taulant, do me a favour, don't take those claims seriously. Those are absolute bullshit. "Aparkeas" is obviously a proper name, linked to the figure on that mosaic. In Roman mosics, you don't write proverbs next to faces in floor mosaics. You write names next to them. It's probably a misspelling of "Aparktias", the personification of the north wind. The video has to turn that into "A pak ke tac" (where did they get the T from? and how did they manage to misread the Rho as a Qoppa? Lol, lol, lol. Pity we still haven't found a photograph of the "ΑΝΝΙΑΤωΥΙω ..." thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The linguist refers to this inscription and to no other.On the youtube vid -no comment....Megistias (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait a second, no, I think you got that one wrong. The book reviewed on LinguistList is evidently talking about the same case that Joseph is talking about in the handout I linked to, and that in turn is evidently the same case you had heard of, where the Greek comes out as "God help Anna". Fine. The text cited by Joseph is " A N A |O H Θ H |IC E P", the corrected reading is given as K(URI)E | [B]OHΘH | AN(N)i 'O lord, help Anna'. But the claim made by Llalla about the "ΑΝΝΙΑΤωΥΙω, ΕΠΙΚΑΔωΜΝΗ, ΜΗCΧAΡΙΝ" is evidently a different text. That one is of course also Greek, indeed much more obviously so. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Dude,Megistias,the Greek Alphabet has no C.Just to fresh your memory [56].As far the youtube video,I just wanted to show Future Perfect at Sunrise,the picture that he was talking about.Because I don't take his claims seriously,I want say what Arben writes about Epirus,Megistias,might go nuts.J/K(I hope made you guys laugh a little).--Taulant23 (talk) 09:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"Aparkeas" is the name of the north wind "Aparktias","Aparktios" ,"Aparkias"."Aparkias" also is the efficient one.Tell the guy on the vid Taulant that we Greeks can read it.The latin alhabet was adopted from Greek variants.Open a book please you Taulant.Megistias (talk) 09:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Open a book please you Taulant? and I don't have any account on youtube to tell him that.Dude, you have to change your attitude, always trying to harass me. Get some anger management, do something, please for God sake.--Taulant23 (talk) 10:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Taulant, in Byzantine Greek writing, a "C"-like sign is a lunate sigma, it's simply the normal way of writing the letter S. Rule of thumb: Byzantine Greek looks a lot more like Cyrillic. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC):Well, I think you are right Fut.Perf. ☼,it does make sense.--Taulant23 (talk) 10:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation is "Anna calls upon the grace of the son-of god".Megistias (talk) 09:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, thanks, must be something along those lines. "Epikaloumenē" and "charin" was pretty obvious. Just for the sake of completeness, how did you parse the letters Llalla renders as "MHC", before the "charin"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a good source about Illyrian-Albanian?

According to Robert D. Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts: A Journey Through History (Random House Inc. New York 1996) p.43 "Albanians descend from ancient Illyrian tribes that by some accounts came to the Balkan Peninsula even before the Greeks did, and more than a thousand years before the Slavs. The Albanian language, Shqip, also derives from that of the Illyrian tribes and bears no similarity to any other known tongue". Thank you!--Taulant23 (talk) 10:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s."even before the Greeks did",I don't buy it,maybe in the same time or from the same family tree.don't read that part :).

We have an article on the author and a section about the book, see Robert D. Kaplan#Balkan Ghosts and the Arabists. The author is a journalist and as such an expert on the modern politics of the Balkans, not their ancient history. In my view, we can use this as a source showing that the Illyrian-Albanian connection is often assumed to be valid in modern popular discourse, but not as a source about what the real experts think. The guy isn't making a contribution to linguistic scholarship with what he writes, he's just parroting what he's read somewhere else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

He is a journalist and even if he wanst it doesnt take. Megistias (talk) 10:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Last think,I promise.Can you change the title of this article[57] from "Albanian Orthodox Church" to "Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania"? If you want more info see [58].Thank you--Taulant23 (talk) 11:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You can do that yourself, just use the "move" rider at the top of the page. Please make sure you go to Special:Whatlinkshere afterwards and change any double redirects (i.e. any page that contains #REDIRECT [[Albanian Orthodox Church]] needs to be changed to #REDIRECT [[Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania]]. Normal links from pages don't need to be changed.) I've posted a notice to the talkpage, I'd recommend waiting a day or two in case anybody has any objections - though I don't really see why there should be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Foreverlove77

Please see User talk:Foreverlove77: likely sock. The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

speaking of page moves......

It's pretty obvious what "Macedonian Greek" means, right? Well, if you add "Catholic Church" to the end, I'm not so sure: Macedonian Greek Catholic Church. I'm happy to move it myself, but should it be just "Macedonian Catholic Church"? I prefer that, but the convention for most of the others is "X Greek Catholic Church", and for some, "X Byzantine Catholic Church" which has the same problem. BalkanFever 12:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't "Macedonian Catholic Church" be referring more to the local branch of the Roman Catholic Church of Latin rite? I suppose that exists too, but the article is quite muddled about which of these it's actually talking about. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, so I think at least for now it should be moved to that, and then if anybody can add more info, which I will try to do when I have time, the article can just be split. BalkanFever 15:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonian language

Can you help with the Greek dialects image there? I tried to find the source but it's a bit confusing. BalkanFever 09:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I've passed the question on to Dbachmann, the author of the original file under that name, which showed the Greek dialects extending a lot less far north. Will need some discussion about sources. I suppose the difference is that Dieter's version showed the archaeological provinces, the areas where these dialects are regularly attested in the inscriptional record, whereas Megistias' includes all the conjectured stuff of the non-literary semi-barbarian tribes in the north. There certainly are widely diverging maps out there in the literature, and rather than trying to condense them into one on the basis of one's own favourite criteria, it might be better to show a whole range of maps giving the different positions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Except of course for the one where it's in the same group as Russian ;-D. BalkanFever 09:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Which is that? 8-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Hypothetically here, but I'm sure I've heard of a historical map of Slavic languages which marks Ancient Macedonian as part of that group. BalkanFever 09:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Your hypothesis is not quite comparable, and you know that. Yes, regarding its affiliation to Greek the mainstream literature is agnostic, as FP would say, but it has no time at all for the pseudoscientific Slavic theory. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you not read where I said "except for..." in reply to Future's comment "...it might be better to show a whole range of maps giving the different positions". Translation: "do not show the opinion that XMK is Slavic". That's a joke though, because it's obvious. BalkanFever 10:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonian (and that of Epirus) is considered Hellenic today.If want to change or improve the map please tell me so and inform me as wellMegistias (talk) 09:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavs came 6th century AD.Is this a joke?????Megistias (talk) 09:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

A joke? From BalkanFever? How on earth could you imagine such a horrible thing, Megistias. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Right now I've got a bit too much rakija in my system, and I'm a bit confused, so I'm going to assume Future is at his hilarious best. BalkanFever 09:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavs and their language came to the Balkan region 6th century Ad and after. The Ancient Macedonian Language is Hellenic and Not to be confused with the modern Macedonian language, which is a close relative of the Slavic Bulgarian.Megistias (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that, I was so confused before. I thought this whole time I was conversing with other editors in the Ancient Macedonian language. BalkanFever 10:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

revert

I did not revert any page since the block ended nor do i intend to.Megistias (talk) 10:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops

Actually, I'd completely missed the edit-war on Chaonians, but it looks as though Akhilleus dealt with the other chap. Whew!

Well, as you can see, I'm back from my break. What have I missed, and what needs doing? I see Dodona has been causing quite a bit of grief - something that needs some TLC? How are the template edit-wars progressing? Hopefully the Balkans craziness hasn't gone completely haywire over the last week. Cheers, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Good to see you back :-) Well, most trouble as in some way or other centered around Megistias these days, he's been continually on the verge of nervous breakdown, mostly due to an assortment of Albanians with ideosyncratic ideas about reliable sourcing. Let's leave him alone for the moment, though, or it will push him over the edge. Dodona is still the same old Dodona, of course, but it appears he's pulled himself a bit together over the last two or three days. On a different field, ChrisO needs help watching Kosovo, because there are political developments in full swing, expected declaration of independence today. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the update. I'll keep an eye on Kosovo. Interesting, that. If Dodona has a relapse I think a temporary reban maybe in order, though. There are limits, much as some of the stuff we get from that quarter is good humour value. Looks like Dbachmann and others have the Chaonian/Pelasgian business under control...so it's same old on the Balkan front? Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 12:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, FPS

I understand what Niko discussed on the talk-page, but I think that it is correct to put the image in the ,,Historical perspective" section, because it represents one phase from the relations between Macedonia and Greece (not to mention that it is undoubtedly connected to Macedonia naming dispute). I really don't want to initiate the well-known quarreling and bickering around these types of articles, but presenting the arguments from both sides is crucial (NPOV). Thanks, Bomac (talk) 14:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Maps

I've made a few different versions like you requested Image:Serbia with Kosovo version4.png Image:Serbia with Kosovo version1.png Image:Serbia with Kosovo version3.png. I'm still a bit undecided as to what would be really good here. Hobartimus (talk) 16:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Great job. I like the version4, because in the others the pink is difficult to tell apart from the greyish shades that are used elsewhere on the map. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, but I just noticed that the map on Wikipedia is not the same as the map on ethnologue when it comes to the location of the languages. When the user was making the map, he made some errors even though he used the ethnologue map as a guide. I will try to make a better map, one that reflect's the ethnologue map more accurately. Polibiush (talk) 17:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Illyrian gods

Hello again Future Perfect. Listen, it seems we (User:Megistias and I) need help enhancing the quality of the Illyrian gods article. User:Shell Kinney added some sources a while back but he did not add any reference citations whatsoever. I tried looking for some modern secondary sources on Google books and nothing turned up. Do you have any suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 15:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You got to help me!

I am getting very irritated by Megistias.Look what he did:[59] Skanderbeg Serbian? I mean come on man Serbian?? Last time he said he was Greek now Slav.This needs to end.I tried hard to comunicate with him,I even apologise.What else can we I do? He will never change.Trust me on this.It's on his blood.Please do something.Thank you--Taulant23 (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Its in my blood? Wow .Stop adding illyrian instead of albanian to skanderbeg.Megistias (talk) 22:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Illyrian???? I din't add anything Illyrian,what you talking about.Dude,you should be banned!What Illyrian has to do with Skanderbeg?--Taulant23 (talk) 22:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well someone did.If it wasnt you i take it back and retort.But still it was a revert within my legal capacities in wiki.The user had greatly changed the page.Megistias (talk) 22:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Its in my blood? Megistias (talk) 22:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

We are talking about you, sir, your action in Wikipedia.Its in my blood? by that I mean your action in here,all your time in here had created edit-wars in articles.I can not believe at myself thinking that you will change.--Taulant23 (talk) 22:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

NOw we know who wrote these on my page and many more [60], [61], [62] [63] [64] Megistias (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of doing those things? Trust me; Future Perfect would kick my butt long time ago if I did that,I am sure he knows my IP. By the way, I feel bad that some people did that to you, and I mean THAT. --Taulant23 (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

And this thread is helpful to the project exactly how? Taulant, I have no idea why it would be inherently implausible for that big fat national hero to be of Serbian or whatever ethnic background. Both your version and Megistias' are unsourced in that respect. Now, play nice with each other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I tried Future,you know that.--Taulant23 (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Τι εχει το αιμα μου ?.Megistias (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Αν ελεγα εγω εναν τετοιο χαρακτηρισμο θα ημουν "κακος",φυσικα δεν θα το ελεγα ποτε.Αυτος ομως ενταξει ειναι γιατι δεν ειναι Ελληνας.Εγω ομως που ειμαι πρεπει να τα ακουω και κανουμε οτι δεν εγινε.Τρομερη λογικη.Megistias (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know, FP, Megistias has taken this up at AN/I which is what has brought me here. Megistias and Taulant23, if you're reading this, please take Future Perfect's excellent advice above. Also, as a matter of courtesy Megistias, stop posting in Greek on the en Wikipedia. Particularly, terms like κακος aren't helpful. On the other hand Taulant23, please don't violate civility with things like "it's on his blood". FP, apologies for using your talkpage to warn people, but I assume they are both reading this. Regards, Tonywalton ^Talk 23:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

ancient greek

I only know ancient greek, in which you can say mh X - 'don't X!'. The subjunctive would mean something like "Prithee, do not go" I think but that's not my best tense lol :) Merkinsmum 23:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, it's done correctly. There was originally an article at Prishtina before it got changed into a redirect to Priština. Priština was originally a redirect to Prishtina. —Kurykh 00:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to do so, then I have no objection. —Kurykh 06:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

On

"My watchlist" page where i keep truck on recent changes in articles a care about it shows some numbers +2, -5 for example in green and red colours.What is this?Just curious. Eagle of Pontus

Number of bytes added / removed in a revision. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Phoenician numerals

Why you reverted on Phoenician alphabet my edits? Even here: http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3284.pdf Phoenician numbers are heavily mentioned. CBMIBM (talk) 16:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You misread the source you previously cited. Neither of the two sources describes a Phoenician system in any way similar to what you claimed. I think you mistook it for some other system that was also described in your first source, but that wasn't a Phoenician one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn’t mistook these systems. Really, Greek linear numerals and Phoenician numerals works similarly to each other. Examples:

• http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3284.pdf
• http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U10100.pdf

Both Greek linear (Aegean) and Phoenician numerals use “|” for one and “-” for ten. Even Phoenician twenty is stacked like Greek linear twenty. CBMIBM (talk) 16:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've tried to correct your errors as far as I could. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry

I'm sorry about all of this. I simply do not have the temperament to edit here sometimes. I will try to be more careful in the future; should I edit at all, it should not be if I'm going to be grumpy. Sorry. The Evil Spartan (talk) 19:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Your cry for help over at ANI was justified, I think. Even if the additional reverts were slightly spider-ish. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Taulant23, incivility

Pls take a look here, "For your work dealing with shovinist Greek Propaganda...". Is it acceptable? The Cat and the Owl (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I asked the same here. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 20:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Uhm, no, hardly acceptable. And I'm saying this as a chief member of the nefarious gung [sic] of the Greek Wikipedian Chauvinist Junta [65], so I should know. Now, the edit itself is old; Taulant is already on civility parole and got blocked just today over it, so as far as he's concerned it's stale. But it would be better for Dodona to remove that wording from his user page. Can you ask him politely to do that? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Did and waiting. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 20:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Gung

Feh! There's the proof of the existence of a cabal right there. I've never been invited to be in a gung. I'm off to sulk. Or create a huge tree of categories of various gungs, Cheers, Tonywalton ^Talk 21:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want to become a member, you could try enquiring with our secretary, User:NikoSilver, about the current entrance fee. I think it was something like three drops of blood and a pound of flesh, back in my time. Apart from that, see Wikipedia:List of cabals. Perhaps the bathrobe guys are an alternative. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Megistias

Hope you don't think I'm muscling in on Megistias' talkpage. I'd just like an editor who obviously has a deep knowledge of the subject to realise that there are ways and ways of improving WP articles. Absolute uninvolvement and pig-ignorance disclaimer: if asked, I'd have thought Skanderbeg was the manager-but-one of the Swedish national football team. Turns out that's Tommy Söderberg. Ah well. Tonywalton ^Talk 22:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

They guy should just take his wikibreak and come back in a few weeks when he's got some fresh air, instead of talking of quitting for days on end and never doing it. :-( Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Einverstanden. Tonywalton ^Talk 22:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, now Taulant says he's quitting as well. Who knows, it might even last for a couple of weeks. Some blissful quiet beckons - probably be very brief, though :) Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 09:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Not without one final, all encompassing burst of his trademark trash talk however. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki doesnt allow you to delete your account....and where can i go now that [66] this new fellow has been adding Albania in Slovenian & Croatian articles that have nothing to do with it.Megistias (talk) 10:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Diffs? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[67]

[68] [69]and more too many....Megistias (talk) 10:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Carlossuarez46

Is there any reason why this user is adding the modern Macedonian language to a bunch of Greek cities? According to WP:PLACES, other names should only be added if they have a historical purpose. It doesn't seem to me that the modern macedonian name for a city like Krya Vrysi, Pella (and more here: Special:Contributions/Carlossuarez46) has any relevance. Am I wrong into thinking that? The wikipolicy states we don't just add names for the sake of it, it has to be for some reason and/or relevance, none of those cities were ever occupied by Modern Macedonia, if anything they were occupied by Bulgaria and Turkey. Any thoughts? _{El Greco}^(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Good that I'm watching Fut.Perf.'s page after all :-) First of all this is one of the most irresponsible behaviours I've ever witnessed from an admin. I have already left a message on his talk page. If he doesn't revert I will report him. Changing the articles especially today when we have developments in the Athens-Skopje relations is provocative to say the least. --   Avg    03:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

"Wah! Abuse! He mad an edit I don't like! Abuse! Vandal! Report him! Off with his head!" Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Κρυάδες. It's not called schadenfreude for nothing, is it now? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we Franks are experts in schadenfreude. Unlike some, we even know what the word means and when it fits and when not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Without getting into the intricacies of Teutonic lexicology, 'pleasure taken from someone else's misfortune' or 'the malicious glee experienced from someone else's misfortune' sound close enough to me, unless those definitions are wrong; I wouldn't know. And the decapitalisation, much to User:Jd2718's chagrin, is a matter of aesthetics according to the rules of English orthography. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Whose "misfortune" did I express glee over? Unless you are implying that Avg's decision to fill this project with ridiculous wailing was a "misfortune" of his. You are right, perhaps I should be more compassionate with the ill-fated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll let you figure it out for yourself, you're a big boy. And you're right; "ridiculous wailing" is not what we need here. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Well you know what, he didn't make "an" edit. He made dozens of edits in a period of minutes. Now I'm back from work and I'll probably be able to get all the diffs I want to file a proper report. See how nice I am that I completely overlooked your personal attack regarding me being ill-fated. Dealing with one rogue admin at a time is enough.--   Avg    16:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Except that most of the edits he made were entirely uncontroversial. He was just creating additional redirects from those old names. In several of these cases the main articles were already mentioning these names anyway, meaning that the redirects would have been expected by policy in any case. How many articles were he actually added these afresh? And of course, your claim that this was a disruptive action ("bordering on vandalism" and whatnot [70]) was patent nonsense. With that hysterical accusation, you've really lost all claims of being taken seriously with your complaint. The only thing that an admin may need to take a good deep look at is your renewed threat of trying to win your content disputes through revert-warring "ad nauseam" [71],, similar to what you said the other day in a different debate [72], a rather serious violation of Wikipedia policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Very poor try of yours. Anyway, let me be the judge what he made and what not in my report. I'm not backing up now. Don't worry you'll have your chance to get rid of me in AN/I, I'll send you a note when i file it.--   Avg    19:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

As promised, here is the link for the AN/I case. I'd welcome your comments.--   Avg    21:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Heracletus

You were right to block me and User:Getoar as the Kosovo article seems a bit more peaceful now. However, I can't say I was particularly happy about it. Mainly, because of the reason being our revert warring and not what we actually wrote on the article. Anyway, I hope that the article will remain peaceful, and that we won't be having another set of "Kosova" and Albanian claims in it.

Anyway, you were right. Heracletus (talk) 07:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Map

Do you have this scanned? "Horrock's Greek: A history of the language and its speakers (the Greek language translation), who in turn cites as his source: J. M. Hall, "The role of language in Greek ethnicities", Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society 41 (1995) 83-100. It has NW Greek stretching to roughly the level of the present-day Greek border (line starting just north of Kerkyra and then going due east-north-east),"Megistias (talk) 10:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I could scan it, but probably won't find time before Friday. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok i illl wait till then and make one based on it.Megistias (talk) 10:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Please do not block Albanian editors

If you chose to edit this wikipedia only with some Greek like him editors it is ok i do not care it is you choice , but i will differ very much my opinion for you. Please do not block wikipedia Albanian project like Taulant !. If some mad "gjitones" nationalist M&T say that our national heroe is not Albanian then my answer is this reference:

Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[73]--Dodona (talk) 10:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms once more

Can you please take a look at this, again? Also note Seleukosa's canvassing [74] [75] [76] [77], where he points out it is becoming "more extreme" after I replied to his comment on the talk page. BalkanFever 11:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Uw-balkans

Hello Stifle, I just wanted to ask you again about your usage of {{uw-balkans}}. I think I brought it up on an ANI discussion some time ago, but I'm not sure if you saw it there. Are you using that template on users without specific motivation in actual preceding disruptive behaviour? I saw you giving it to the new Klungel (talk · contribs), along with a welcome, and it didn't seem like they had been doing any serious harm previously. Isn't that rather bitey? Or did I miss something in what they did?

As a matter of principle, I'd say we should use this warning like any other administrative warning: Warnings are given if and when somebody does something bad, to tell them to stop doing that. I'm pretty sure that's also what the Arbcom had in mind when they told us to warn first and then to apply sanctions. It's very confusing and hardly helpful for an editor to be "warned" if they don't know what they are being warned of, don't you think? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I understood it as meaning that users who are involved in editing in Balkans-related topics should be put on notice of the ruling so that they could not claim that they were unaware of it. User:Klungel has shown up and edited nothing other than Balkans-related articles in the last couple of weeks, so I was advising him/her that the ruling existed. However, the template is a bit bitey. I didn't notice your edit which changed it from a neutral advisory to a warning of previous bad behaviour and have edited my message to Klungel in the meantime.

If your understanding of the ruling is different, perhaps we could request clarification of the ruling, or come up with a better wording for the template. Stifle (talk) 15:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, let's get this clarified. Of course, one option would be to split it up into two different templates, one completely friendly and non-bitey and simply informative, and the other a "warning" in the proper sense. Note that the mismatch problem works both ways: giving a "stop this disruptive behavior!" warning to somebody who's completely innocent is just as counterproductive as giving a "I'm not saying you did anything wrong" template to somebody who actually did. But note that there's also been the proposal of merging the whole thing into a general cross-areas Arbcom warning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Not opposed to that. Meanwhile, {{uw-balkans}} is now an AGF version and {{uw-balkans2}} exists for people who caused disruption. Stifle (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Very long

This talk page is becoming very long. Please consider archiving. Stifle (talk) 15:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Dodona

Probably should have asked you first, but I've blocked him for 3 months. Just couldn't believe he went straight back to Arvanites with more nonsense after you gave him a final warning to stop. Selective hearing, I suppose. Best, Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)