User talk:Enrico Chou

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Hello, Enrico Chou, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask at the help desk, or place {{Help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to help you get started. Happy editing! - wolf 04:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

December 2023[edit]

Information icon Hello, I'm Sungodtemple. I noticed that you recently removed content from Eileen Chang without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Sungodtemple (talk • contribs) 23:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sungodtemple. To provide the belated edit summary, I mainly removed the inaccurate and repeated content, such as the repeated mentions of her rediscovery in the 80s and 90s and the strange title "a well-known feminist woman writer of Chinese literature," which is far from a consensus and, though popular among female readers, not the first word you come to associate with her. It's easy to find papers and scholars who dismiss Chang's feminist credentials:
https://www.hk01.com/%E5%93%B2%E5%AD%B8/530048/%E7%99%BE%E5%B9%B4%E5%BC%B5%E6%84%9B%E7%8E%B2-%E4%B8%8B-%E5%BC%B5%E6%84%9B%E7%8E%B2-%E9%A6%AC%E5%9F%BA%E9%9B%85%E7%B6%AD%E5%88%A9-%E5%BC%8F%E7%9A%84%E5%A5%B3%E6%80%A7%E4%B8%BB%E7%BE%A9%E5%8F%8A%E5%85%B6%E8%92%BC%E6%B6%BCIhttps://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/%E5%BC%A0%E7%88%B1%E7%8E%B2%E7%9A%84%E5%88%9B%E4%BD%9C%E5%B1%9E%22%E5%A5%B3%E6%80%A7%E4%B8%BB%E4%B9%89%E6%96%87%E5%AD%A6%22%E5%90%97-%E6%B8%A9%E5%B7%A6%E7%90%B4-%E7%A6%8F%E5%BB%BA%E5%B8%88%E8%8C%83%E5%A4%A7%E5%AD%A6/142ad258ddc7e4684ecf2914216de2767aee9e6f
I also removed the mess of ISBN in her bibliography for a clear format. Enrico Chou (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ZZH[edit]

Can you provide a written source for your removal of information from the ZZH article? Current source lists him as the writer. If another writer needs to be credited, that can be so, but I don't think the removal is appropriate if ZZH is officially credited.  oncamera  (talk page) 19:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Tang Tian wrote it was only mentioned by Zhang in his last public appearance before the ban and before the song was released. No written records can be found for obvious reasons as Zhang was officially banned but Tang, a famous lyricist, still has a career in China. The fact that the song was finally released showed that they prob reached an agreement on how it'd be credited. I think it'd may be better to just remove the politically understandable yet factually inaccurate statement that Zhang wrote the lyrics. Enrico Chou (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The citation credits ZZH and better to leave it at that. If the other person doesn't want to be credited and isn't credited, then no point in adding their name. However, it shouldn't be deleted since it has a source.  oncamera  (talk page) 22:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need a reliable source for "Ocean Zhang". When I search it on google, I get only one or two results relating to ZZH. His instagram posts or tiktoks aren't good enough since it's not clearly stated that's his name now. It's not even in the bio on his Instagram. Thanks,  oncamera  (talk page) 11:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are not only his social media posts but also his first photobook which was just out months ago. The name Ocean Zhang is writ large on the cover. He also launched his tiktok under the name of Ocean Zhang and has an ongoing vlog series called "Ocean Zhang's basketball vlog." Your reasons to repeatedly revert are far-fetched to say the least. For one, it doesn't make sense when you see his series of videos called "Ocean Zhang's basketball vlog", featuring him playing basketball, and conclude Ocean is not him bc "it's not clearly stated that's his name."
And what kind of source would be more "reliable" by your definition than the firsthand source when talking about his own name, esp. when he is not famous at all in the English world? It'd be unreasonable to ask for millions of Google search results and mainstream media reports when you searched his English name which is obv a new name. You can have millions of results if u search on tiktok, and even the Google results are few, they can be sources if legit.
Lastly, countless wiki pages don't have any sources regarding people's names. ZZH's co-star Gong Jun simply lists Simon as his alternate name w/o any source. Same cases in The Rock for Dwayne Johnson, The Weeknd for Abel Makkonen Tesfaye, and Vicki/Vicky Zhao for ZZH's former boss Zhao Wei, all w/o sources on their pages. Why ZZH's page is such a special case?
The strange gatekeeping of this page and denial of obvious facts are unproductive. This little piece of info is not disrespectful and no need to censor it. Enrico Chou (talk) 20:37, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tiktok isn't considered a WP:reliable source on Wikipedia. Per MOS:BIOALTNAME: "Nicknames and other aliases included must be frequently used by reliable sources in reference to the subject." It's not being censored, the sources you mention just don't fit the standard of sources used on Wikipedia. Journalists need to refer to him as Ocean etc.  oncamera  (talk page) 13:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you really read the guideline you linked? It clearly says “official accounts from celebrities” are an exception and “Self-published … sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves…”
What’s more, you’re attacking a straw man by ignoring the other sources such as the just published photobook. I don’t know why you try to gatekeep, if not censor, this page so hard but it’s way too obvious from the fact that you desperately distorted the guideline and intentionally ignored the sources that may be harder to question. Our argument is pointless if you have an axe to grind. Enrico Chou (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lol, I don't even watch or listen to this celebrity, I just know his page is "attacked" by both fans and anti-fans so I watch or edit it to keep it neutral and inline with Wikipedia policy so I have no "axe" to grind. His bio on instagram doesn't include "Ocean" and even the photobook title on the linked page says "Zhang Zhehan × Lan Feng’s Letter Hyacinth: First Travel Photo Book (Hardcover)" when translated. It doesn't say Ocean Zhang x Lan Feng. Until the nickname becomes common, it shouldn't go into the lead of the article because it doesn't even have a reliable source coming from the artist himself other than text on a cover or basketball posts (he's not known as a basketball player lol). On the Weibo for Gong Jun, he includes the name "Simon" in his name in his bio: https://weibo.com/u/2172061270. Right now, ZZH doesn't list it in a prominent place. If/when he does, then the article can be updated.  oncamera  (talk page) 19:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're doing all this for neutrality, please keep it in a reasonable manner instead of being overanxious or trigger-happy. You're contradicting yourself when you say Gong Jun's Weibo name is reliable while ZZH's Tiktok name unreliable, even tho he launched his Tiktok last year under the name Ocean Zhang only, instead of Zhang Zhehan. "If/when he does, then the article can be updated." This page should've been updated last year already by your standard.
Declaring his own vlog credits unreliable bc he's not a basketball player is also unreasonable, to say the least. Is there any logic relationship between one's English name and one's profession? He also posted "Ocean Zhang's London vlog", will you argue he's not known as a Londoner so he can't be named Ocean?
And how does the translation of a Chinese webpage mean anything? Ofc he doesn't go by his English name in the Chinese world and ofc you get the pinyin version of his name when auto-translate his Chinese name. Furthermore, how does the website's description of the photobook prevail over the photobook itself? Ofc there's no "reliable source coming from the artist himself" after you renounced all the sources.
Ultimately, if you're not even a Chinese pop culture consumer, on what standing and by what standard do you judge if his name "becomes common"? He will never be famous in the English world, and prob never in the Chinese world as he was blacklisted on the cusp of moderate fame. You'll not see millions of Google search results about his English name or a NYTimes feature on the rising star Ocean Zhang any time soon. Your self-declared standard smacks of a Catch 22.
Anyway, this is just a little piece of sourceable enough info about a not famous enough guy. I'm not a fan or anti-fan and the addition of it doesn't attack the neutrality of the page. Tons of wiki pages out there about ppl not famous at all, and he should have the right to his own name, even it's not famous enough by your standard. Enrico Chou (talk) 21:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need better sources, that's nothing more than that.  oncamera  (talk page) 21:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll stop here because you have monopolized the definition of "better sources". I have already addressed your ever-feeble reasons for reverting one by one, but all you do is constantly move the goalposts and avoid answering the question. In your own words, if he displays the name as Gong Jun does in his social media handler, "then the article can be updated." The update is long overdue. But now you're simply denying your own words.
A celeb goes by the name on his official accounts, is prominently credited as such in his work, and is called so by his agent (https://weibo.com/1785984725/OdH4PBSA4) and international fans (https://www.facebook.com/ZZH.HZVN), it should be more than enough to say this is his alternative name. It doesn't have to be his main name and it's out of point if the name is commonly known in the English world, when he doesn't even have a career there. English is a lingua franca in Asia as in the rest of the world and an English name doesn't appeal to native speakers only.
Again, when it comes to the subject themselves, the official accounts and self-published sources are totally acceptable, as in the guideline provided by yourself. All the additional requirements are unaccountably imposed by you. I appreciate your help with maintaining the neutrality of the page under attacks, but the stubborn blocking of normal and routine edits is really unnecessary. Enrico Chou (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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