User talk:Duja/Archive 9

Allegations of Chinese apartheid AfD

Following your recent participation in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid, you may be interested to know that a related article, Allegations of Chinese apartheid, is currently being discussed on AfD. Comments can be left at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 16:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Panama City

Hello, I've noticed that you have correctly moved the Panamá City, Panamá page to the correct name in English "Panama City, Panama". I agree with you, since it is necessary to be consistent with the English pronunciation of the name in the English Wikipedia. However, certain users have moved it back without any discussions. I've tried to move it again, but I can not. How did you manage to move the page?--Schonbrunn 00:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The target page has a history, so it can't have other pages moved there without first preserving the page's history -- which requires administrator help. Since Duja's an administrator, he could do the move, however you'll have to find another to help you with any future move(s). You can check at WP:RM, but I doubt that'll work, since there's obviously some sort of lack of consensus for the non-accented title, though I don't understand why, for the reasons you already mentioned. Look around some and see what you can do about consensus so it can be fixed. -Bbik^★ 01:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Ostrovica fortress?

Seems I have good timing, welcome back! Have a good vacation?

I'm (finally) doing a bit more filling in of history gaps for Smederevo fortress, and there are at least a few mentions of simultaneous seiges at Smederevo and a fortress at Ostrovica (I presume Ostrovica, Serbia?) or Omol/Omolridon. The issue is, I can find nothing mentioning a fortress ever being there (aside from the sources I already have), and since it the first seems to be close to Niš, I'm wondering what the chances are the two locations could've been confused, though that seems unlikely in published works. Are the two places next to each other, and the fortress in Niš right over the border from Ostrovica, perhaps? Or were one of the other Ostrovicas part of Serbia around the 1450s, and likely places for fortresses/attacks? Where is Omol(ridon) in the first place, is it near Niš too? -Bbik^★ 03:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, later; that handful of contribs was just a mini wikibreak-break. I'm still on holidays; actually, tomorrow I go to the real vacation :-); see you after September 3. Duja► 12:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, and a brief research: the fortress in question (fell to Turks 1523) seems to be in today's Croatia: see hr:Lišane Ostrovičke and [1]. sr:Spisak tvrđava u Srbiji mentions another Ostrovica fortress, but it's little known and located on mountain of Rudnik near Gornji Milanovac. The Ostrovica (Niška Banja) (I just moved the page) doesn't seem to have anything with it. Can't find anything about Omolridon; Omol seems to be a cognate with modern Serbian Homolje, a mountainous area east of Požarevac; or perhaps something to do with Omoljica near Pančevo? History of Pancevo mentions a city named "Pančal" near today's Omoljica, mentioned in Matija Talovac's letter in 1430, and Bertrand de la Broquier's (spelling?) chronicles from 1433. Sorry if this gives more questions than answers :-D. Duja► 12:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, I think you're going to have to go back in time and tell your countrymen and the various conquerors to stop changing place names (and to use different names for each place?) and to keep better track of where they're fighting, it'd make things so much easier! :-p In any case, thanks for the attempt, I guess I'll just leave it vague for now. Have fun down in Greece! :) (And beware the likely major drop in my language abilities when you get back -- I'll be doing my own "travelling" by then and completely confusing accented German for English for bits of French (and now maybe Serbian?)... Think the last three days is last minute enough to start packing?) -Bbik^★ 14:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Loznica coat of arms.gif)

Thanks for uploading Image:Loznica coat of arms.gif. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Hahahihihoho

Special:Contributions/Visca_el_barca

I'm told this appears to be him (again). --PaxEquilibrium 20:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Revert War

Hello Duja, welcome back. I'm currently involved in a revert war on Saborsko massacre. The Wikipedia rules have not been violated as such, it's been going on for a week or so. I did suggest involving non-Balkan admins, and I intend to - but do me a kind favour if you can; as you know better than both User:Kubura and I do, exactly how an article should be presented. If you get time, look at the changes made since I made a big edit some time back. My only purpose was to rid it of its POVs; political event articles are full of them. The biggest issue is regarding the ICTY: Kubura wants (it was a plan to destroy); and I want (the ICTY found/stated/reported that it was a plan to destroy). Not much more really. If you keep good contact with a Craoatian admin, please come in together - it would help. I am prepared to negotiate; I am all eyes and ears for reading new information, and as God is my witness, I only wish to make positive and truthful contributions. Thanks. Evlekis 12:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Serbian films

Hey know of any films to add to the List of Serbian films. I'm trying to add some films into the tables with details of the director etc. If you could help it this would be great ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 10:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

How about sr:Spisak srpskih filmova? It's not referenced, but looks reasonably comprehensive. Some IMDB searches and googling should fill the gaps. I can help with translations and searches of the films with common-word titles. Duja► 06:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Darkwood Dub.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Darkwood Dub.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 13:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

New Version Of Reply On Pripyat, Ukraine Talk Page, Please See...

I have added more important information on the Russian alphabet, as well as the Cyrillic pronunciation to prove that it is correctly pronounced, "Preepyat'", or more commonly, "Pripyat", in English. Please see and report on my talk page. Thanks, G'Night, -- Steven Stone 02:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Notability?

Hey Duja, welcome back! A quick question for you, before I head off myself. Is this guy notable/verifiable enough? It seems like he should be, but certainly not in English. Are there any reliable Serbian sources for the claims made in the article? -Bbik^★ 12:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Barely. I already did stumble to that AfD in the regular process of wikistalking you :-), but didn't feel inclined to comment. I can't find anything substantial or reliable apart from the source already linked in the article; looks like just another wannabe singer, who is distinguished only by having won the "Zvezde Granda" competition and recorded an album therefore. However, he seems mostly forgotten since. I wouldn't lose much sleep if the article gets deleted. Duja► 12:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, ok :). Not that I would've (or even have the luxury!) to lose sleep over such minor things, but at least now I've covered all the bases, so can quite contendedly let things take their course. Guess that means it's packing time. I'm finally heading east to see what's over in your part of the world! Any must-try foods? That'll probably easier to deal with than must-see places, with the limited time I have. -Bbik^★ 14:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Which part of the world exactly? You mentioned a trip to Germany if I remember correctly... and I'm generally not too fond of German food, at least few things I tried. Heck, even in Minnesota we spent most of the time in Turkish, Chinese, Mexican and Bosnian restaurants. Duja► 14:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, there was going to be a year of school in Germany, but it kind of turned into a semester in Austria and next semester in the Czech Republic. We have a post-orientation, pre-semester break now, though, so decided to head east with a friend. Seems I'm going to be checking out "Russian food" (whatever that includes) with my friend's friend in Moldova, then detouring through Romania (Bucharest) and Serbia (Belgrade) on the way back, if only for a couple days. Shame I don't have time to go check out these fortresses I wrote about. So... your specific part of the world. (Though, some nice spicy Mexican sounds really good right about now. There's that much variety in Minnesota? I really need to start checking out my own country some one of these days.) -Bbik^★ 14:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

tweaking Mountain Infobox

Hi, Duja. Could I ask you to not tweak the mountain infobox until discussion has settled at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains? (Or, at least let the discussants know that you are tweaking the infobox in response to their comments, so that people aren't confused). Feel free to join the discussion. Thanks! hike395 12:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Will do. Duja► 12:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism and abuse of admin right

I'd like to warn you that you vandalized Sajmiste Concentration Cam several times by baselessly reverting my changes and moreover removing the explanation on the talkpage justifying the changes. Please, remove the semi-protection of this article and restrain from false accusations and apparent vandalism.--4.249.0.41 21:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Bitterside

Thanks for your contibution!
JEPAAB 11:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

US mobile phone companies move

Just a note to say thanks for taking care of this! --Squiggleslash 12:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, that's my job! No need to thanks, I earn huge buck$$$ for it :-). Duja► 12:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Iron maiden

Despite your closing comment on this requested move, Reginmund has three times reverted this redirect so that it points to Iron maiden (torture device) rather than Iron Maiden. I'm looking for some clarification on this matter in hope that another LAME edit war can be averted. Cheers! PC78 23:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

D'oh. What a WP:LAME. I'll seek for assistance on WP:ANI, and I asked for policy clarification at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (precision). In any way, edit warring is not a way to do it. Thanks for pointing this out. Duja► 07:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Duja! And apologies for dragging you into something which really isn't your problem. I appreciate you looking into this. PC78 11:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Post-WWII Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe

Dear Duja,

Could you please restore old version of article Post-WWII Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, at least in my user space, so I could work with it? This article was very different from current version of Soviet occupation. Right now it is inaccessible. Thank you.Biophys 02:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I would, but User:Richardshusr already moved it to his userspace, and the history is there. I've restored User:Richardshusr/Post-WWII Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe to the last valid version. As he doesn't own it, you can work on that copy along with him—it would certainly be nice let him know about it. Duja► 06:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Per this edit, I'm fine with Biophys either moving the article into his userspace or just editing it in mine. The only thing to avoid is making two copies and editing both of them thus creating a mess which has to be merged back together.

--Richard 07:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

TLA

Thanks - sorry I was overcautious and put it in the wrong category of move request! PamD 13:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Urban Learning Technology

Why did you delete the article I posted regarding ULT. I was building that with a friend and he was about to add all references and other information. Please tell me why you deleted it before we could even expand on it???

-Leshell --Leshell 17:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you know

On 24 September, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Marijan Beneš, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Allen3 ^talk 00:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Page move

Thanks for moving IBM zSeries to IBM System z. The talk page is still at its old location at Talk:IBM zSeries instead of Talk:IBM System z. Could you move it too? Foobaz·o< 20:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out, missed it. Duja► 06:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

HAR move

Re: Huot Automatic Rifle. Like the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, I think it should be capitalized, and the existing article redirected to the new article placement. The weapon should be known by its proper name, like the BAR, I think that common practice capitalizes the name. In discussion, several firearm experts have found that Ross participated in the development of the Huot Automatic Rifle, AND some type of light machine gun, though not necessarily with Huot. There is a discussion at theRoss rifle talk page regarding this. Now we have two titles that say the same thing, but concern different topics. User:Kalashnikov seems to be the best informed on this topic compared to any other editor or admin with whom I've discussed this. We can't have a "Huot LMG" page and a HAR page that describe two separate things as though they are related or the same thing. Again, I'd refer to Kalashnikov.TeamZissou 19:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

User:75.132.95.79 aka User:A B Pepper

Hi Duja, I see you've encountered User:75.132.95.79. As you probably saw from their talk page they were soapboxing and edit warring at Christian views about women and at Talk:Christian feminism. THis user has an account, the same soap-boxing and the same type of pov-push is continuing on Christian views about women. I made a post with detailed diffs to Seraphimblade here but he's not looked into it yet.

A B Pepper is the same user as Ip 75.132.95.79 and is carrying with similar behaviour on other articles. I have had to warn A B Pepper with a level 4 for soapboxing at Talk:Southern Baptist Convention [2]; should an checkuser be opened to establish that A_B_Pepper is sock-puppeting?--20:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

His attacks are getting pretty severe[3] [4]. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 17:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Duja. This "macho man" (a self-description) appears to be mentally and emotionally unstable. After his latest curse or hex he says he put on me (User_talk:Afaprof01 under "You are no Deborah," I think he has gone off the deep end. This is the most serious disruptive uncivil behavior I have ever seen on Wiki. His arrogance knows no bounds. Several have tried to reason with him, and he summarily rejects their efforts. He is so badly frustrating the efforts of good editors, and damaging many articles with his edits, that we may lose valuable contributors. I don't think any of us are willing to go on subjecting ourself to his kind of personal attack and craziness. We need Admin help, please! Thanks Afaprof01 18:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Durova took care about it, apparently, and he declared departure. Sorry that I didn't react yesterday; frankly, I investigated a bit his contributions, but couldnt' make heads and tails of it. Duja► 06:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

YAF

Check out Talk:Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland. --PaxEquilibrium 22:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion

Hello! I've noticed your productive involvement with ethnic groups and categorization before. If you have time, would you mind offering any suggestions you might have at Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board#Categories, concerning possible changes to Category:German people by state? Olessi 13:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Republika Srpska

Great work with the {{Infobox Country}} fix!  — MapsMan [ talk | cont ] — 21:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Galileo CRS

Thank you for keeping the article. I've added a history section. It's a start. Many may not know the significance and discussion during the 1980's that led to the creation of Amadeus, Worldspan, and Galileo. Archtransit 15:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

House of Karageorgevich

Please show that Karađorđević is the majority English usage before reverting edits in good faith that were checked before being done. This is English, not Serbian, Wikipedia. Charles 16:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

How about that you show that Karageorgevich is, instead? Articles have talk pages, you know. Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss is right behind the corner, and I see that you're performing only the second step of it. Duja► 06:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Miroljub Jevtic

Hi,

For this article we would need categories. I am from the German and Serbian Wikipedia, so I can help only restricted. All the best -- Carski 10:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Polish gminas and bot

Hi, Thanks for your comments on the Polish gminas issue; as you say, we'll have to agree to disagree. As far as the bot is concerned, of course I'll let you have the source code, though at the moment it still needs some debugging and a lot of tidying up (I hope to give it a trial run in the next few weeks). There is some source code at User:Kotbot, but that covers only the very last stage of the process (putting the generated articles onto WP). The difficult bit is retrieving the information from the source WP (and checking its integrity as much as possible). In the Polish case, this is proving very time consuming, because the original Polish articles do not all follow the same format. However if all the information you want is in absolutely standard form (as Infobox fields, for example), then it should be quite easy to automatise. Oh, I see you're a programmer, so you'll be able to do this much more professionally than me;)--Kotniski 09:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I moved the gmina articles as requested, and left a notice at Talk:Gmina Abramów. Please also take a look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Infobox Gmina, as I suppose it will be deprecated by the Geobox.

As for the future use I requested, I have the basic information (name, population, municipality) in an Access database, and I can create text dumps as I want. Only if I could import some coordinate data from somewhere... Duja► 13:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the moves!! Luckily the coordinate data for many Polish towns and villages already exists in Polish WP, so I am able to import it from there. I'm discovering quite a lot of mistakes along the way, though, like villages with coordinates which would lie in totally different regions (correcting these is one of the things that makes the process so time-consuming). Trying to import the former German names is fun, too.--Kotniski 13:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

TLA vs TLA (disambiguation)

I'm confused. You seem to have killed the history of TLA (disambiguation). Why? Pdfpdf 15:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope, when a page is moved the history goes with it as well. The hisory is at the TLA page. Duja► 06:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So does the TLA (disambiguation) history get merged into the TLA history, or does it replace the TLA history? If it replaces it: You seem to have killed the history of TLA. Why? Pdfpdf 09:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Aha. By default, it replaces the old history, but I can merge them as an administrator. I always take a look at history when I do the obstructed moves, and don't do the merging if everything that was there was only messing with redirects (merging tends to scramble browsing through edit histories). Now, on a closer look, there is an edit of yours which wasn't a redirect, but it looks identical to this one. In sum, it's difficult to analyse what was a copy/paste and what was a "proper" contribution. I can restore it if you want, but why is it so important? The diff I provided above seems to be it. For your info, the deleted history is:

• 14:20, 19 September 2007 . . Pdfpdf (Talk | contribs | block) (34 bytes) (←Redirected page to TLA (disambiguation))
• 12:43, 19 September 2007 . . Pdfpdf (Talk | contribs | block) (1,177 bytes) (Make this the disambiguation page for TLA)
• 11:46, 19 September 2007 . . PamD (Talk | contribs | block) (34 bytes) (part of rearrangement, temp move)
• 19:36, 10 September 2007 . . Dark Shikari (Talk | contribs | block) (39 bytes) (fixing double redirect)
• 02:26, 6 September 2007 . . Circeus (Talk | contribs | block) (34 bytes) (rv to original redirect)
• 15:53, 3 September 2007 . . Wafulz (Talk | contribs | block) (36 bytes) (double redirect)
• 17:00, 16 June 2007 . . Goldfritter (Talk | contribs | block) (39 bytes) (fixing double redir)
• 03:37, 2 August 2006 . . Daniel Olsen (Talk | contribs | block) (Redirecting to Three-letter acronym)
• 21:06, 23 June 2006 . . Adambiswanger1 (Talk | contribs | block) (TLA shouldn't be the primary page)
• 12:14, 5 April 2006 . . Off! (Talk | contribs | block) (moved TLA to Three-letter acronym)

Duja► 09:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Except for the next-to-last diff, everything else was changing of redirect. Duja► 09:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

but I can merge them as an administrator - Now that would have to be the first (and so far only) advantage I have seen of being an Administrator! And yes, that was a very poor attempt at humour. ;-) Pdfpdf

Oh, no, you can also delete pages and block naugthy users, which provides a god-like feeling.

Lol! Well, we all have to have some god-like feelings every now and then ...

In turn, you can get harrassed by discontent cranks either online or in real life, if you're stupid to make your real-life identity available, like me :-) Duja► 13:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the sort of thing that that causes me to want to avoid being an admin!!

I can restore it if you want, but why is it so important? - I don't know that it is important! ("don't know" is the most significant part of that sentence.) It's just that I was very careful not to disturb edit histories, because I thought that doing so was "unacceptable behaviour". You came along and, with your administrator rights, stomped on them. I don't know if they were important; I assumed that people did what they did for reasons that were important to them, and didn't think it was my right to stomp on it. To be honest, I don't really care - I was just trying to be a "good and considerate citizen", and assumed that an administrator would be an "even better and even more considerate citizen". (P.S. I'm not asking you to restore it.)
For your info ... - Thanks. No, there doesn't seem to be anything important, significant (or even useful!) there, does there. (?)

So thanks for the info. To recap:

• My question was: "Why?".
• I think your answer was: "Because it didn't remove any significant/useful information." (Did I get that right? If so: "OK, that makes sense.")

However, why do anything at all? Wasn't it OK as it was? Why actually do something, (rather than nothing), when it appears that it wasn't necessary to do anything? (Not an earth-shatteringly-important question, but I am a bit puzzled.) Regards, Pdfpdf 12:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, why, albeit succinct, was a terribly broad question

True

—I should probably have asked "do you want a long or a short answer" :-). Since you again ask another "why", I'll try to be reasonably succinct:

• Someone asked to move TLA (disambiguation) to TLA for stylistic reasons outlined in Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Page_naming_conventions (page Foo shouldn't redirect to Foo (disambiguation)) and I complied
• However, a page A cannot be moved over page B if the latter has non-trivial edit history
• Therefore, page B must be deleted before the move
• Optionally, edit histories of A and B may be merged to preserve contributor list, as required by GFDL, which I didn't do in this case Duja► 13:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. (And yes, you were succinct.) Thanks, Pdfpdf 14:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Check out this guy 212.214.205.154. Paulcicero 21:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the Language Ref Desk help...

...on my recent query there. The discussion on the WordReference forum is indeed interesting, if not definitive; I'm always heartened to see others pondering questions similar to my own. Having no knowledge of Russian myself, I'm unable to glean anything from the Russian Wikipedia page on Zionism that might illuminate the whether the Russian word "Zion" is ever a descriptor for identified Jews (by ethnicity rather than religion), or always refers to the Zionist agenda. Looks like I'll have to do some further thinking and post a re-worded query. --Thanks, Deborahjay 12:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Serb clans

I understand what you tried to do and agree that it's a bit more NPOV that way - but it's also more incorrect. While the previous name of the article relied (by the greatest part) on historical interpretation, the current one lacks basis for it. Any idea for a solution? --PaxEquilibrium 10:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"Lacks the basis on historical interpretation"? Those are clans located in Montenegro, and the current title plainly says so. See the Google scholar results for pleme Montenegro. As has been repeatedly complained on the talk page, the title "Serb clans" creates a false impression that a) the clans are universal characteristic of Serbs (whereas they're obviously not) and that b) the clans have something to do with Serbdom, where in fact the focus should be on anthropologist research. Duja► 10:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No. It also includes eastern Herzegovina, and a part of Serbia - as well as both historically and currently northern Albania and Metohija. "of Montenegro" would make it seem like it's typical for Montenegro - while the "Old Montenegrin clans" are in reality the only Montenegrin clans - the term expanded with the expansion of the Montenegrin state in the 19th century to include the neighbouring Serb tribes, but not including all, which is the cause of extinction or plain disappearance of many clans, e.g. in eastern Herzegovina. Most of these clands anyway do not come from Montenegro (proper), but e.g. Kosovo (Metohija included) or Herzegovina. --PaxEquilibrium 11:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What I see on the map in the article is almost entirely in Montenegro. AFAIK modern Montenegro encompasses what once was known as "eastern Herzegovina" or "old Herzegovina", and Drobnjaci, Piva and Grahovo are in modern Montenegro. Montenegro is referred to throughout the article. Why is that inadequate? Duja► 12:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Partially modern-day Republika Srpska too - and you forget that this article is a historical article, rotating around history. The clans today in Montenegro play quite a different part of the society - many e.g. are extinct while the article doesn't even include several. The problem is that the excerpt has been taken from the 19th century studies of Jovan Erdeljanovic, and copied Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic - who recorded "Serb clans not near extinction". It's all a lot fishy. --PaxEquilibrium 20:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Especially the problem arises when the fact that most of the members of the clans (both historically and in the present sense) do not live in modern-day Montenegro. And in the historical interpretation, on which the whole article relies, corresponded to the previous name - with the case of Nikola Tesla, it's hardly to be called a Clan in Montenegro - which most became only in the second half of the 19th century. --PaxEquilibrium 19:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and for end point - majority of the people tied to clans are/were Serbs or pro-Serbian. National Councils of all clans were relieved years ago in Montenegro. 78% of the clan parliaments supported a common state with Serbia, a "Council of National Assemblies" was formed that was a component part of Zoran Zizic's "Movement for European State Serbia and Montenegro". It also supported the Serb List in the subsequent 2006 parliamentary election, with some of its prominent members joining the actual political alliance. Today it's disbanded. In general, clans still have a sort of important impact in Montenegro - but clan life is a characteristic of the pro-Serbs. On the "other side" it's even presented as such - an instance is the Vice-President of the Liberal Party who (I remember) spat on clans, repulsively referring to them as a "Serb thing". --PaxEquilibrium 21:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Burma-Myanmar

Dear friend, you made a real mistake when you switched Mynamar to Burma: you played into the hands of Anglo-American biggots who have no regard for neutrality or objectivity. "English Wikipedia means it must be British" - that attitude. No different to Chetniks and Ustashe being trusted to write articles about our very own ugly chapter a few years back. Evlekis 19:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

An admin's job is to evaluate the community's consensus, not to supersede it with his own opinion. Frankly, I didn't see much of the "cultural imperialism" you allude to in that discussion; if anything, a good portion of resentment towards the name of Myanmar was due to perception that it was imposed by the military junta, rather than a rightful choice by the people of the country. The fact is that both names are in use in English-speaking countries, and that was what mattered in the case at hand. Duja► 06:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Community consensus may not be necessarily correct. WP:CSB In the same manner, just because the western media is not too aware of the name changes in Asian countries, continue to refer to them. For instance there was a big debate over Kolkata-Calcutta. "Consensus" for retaining Calcutta was mostly from the western hemisphere while Kolkata was more rounded. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, community consensus may not be necessarily correct; however, at least in this case, correctness is in the eye of beholder. We're dealing with two equally valid names, an exonym and endonym. Yes, there's no particularly appealing reason to switch to the exonym; there's equally no particularly no appealing reason to override apparent majority and retain the endonym. Damned if you move, damned if you don't. Duja► 07:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The Morning Post

Good job Moving the page. However, its Talk npage is still named "Talk:Morning Post." Cheers. --Ludvikus 15:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Anybody who coulld help with WW2 history?

Duja, could you help (or recommend somebody who could help) with some decent knowledgeable approach to Yugoslavian WW2 history? We have this dreadful National Liberation War of Macedonia, which has degenerated into a Macedonian-Bulgarian ethnic feud. I know virtually nothing about it, and I can't read most of the sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I can help, I speak a little Macedonian and am pretty knowledgable in WW2 Yugoslav history, could you explain the issues? DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The article was created by a Macedonian user, (currently banned) User:Frightner, apparently with a nationally motivated POV tending to present the activities of the Macedonian partisans as a liberation Movement aimed at a distinct Macedonian national ideal, particularly against Bulgarian domination. Then a bunch of Bulgarian users jumped on the article and pulled it in a direction exonorating the Bulgarian side and stressing how the Macedonian population really wanted to be Bulgarian and how evil the Serbs were in contrast. Well, I'm exaggerating a bit, but that's the POV background. The whole article is heavily POV and OR, based on cheap nationalist websites and similar junk. It's been in a state of continual edit-war for a few months and really should be rewritten from scratch, or maybe even better merged somewhere else. (But just that has been one of the hottest contentious issues.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I know precious little about it; even in the basic school during the socialist era, all we were taught about WWII on the Macedonian territory was that they uprised against occupiers on Oct 11 1941, 4 months later than the others. And I made some results at "Tito's paths of revolution" contents back in 1st-4th grade :-)). Duja► 06:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, its an obscure part of an obscure part of history, and the whole thing is so, well, messed up, I wish you could just erase the whole thing and start over... DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

An afterthought: a far better answer would have been "It's all Greek to me". :-)) Duja► 11:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

French fried potatoes

Hello, thank you for undoing this move. Can you please move the talk page to match the article? Thanks and regards. --Muchness 17:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Solar power/Solar energy

Your moving of solar power to solar energy just because it may seem reasonable to you, with no respect for the on going discussion is not appreciated. I request that you either move it back or help fix some of the 600 redirects that have been created by making the move. If you do not move it back, please click on the above link to solar power, click on the redirect page, click on what links here, and get started. Don't worry about user pages and talk pages. Here is a short cut to get there for you.[5] 199.125.109.27 18:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

First, your tone is not appreciated. I didn't move the page "heavy-handedly" or just because I'm an admin, but because there was a requested move with consensus to move. Second, I assure you that I know the procedure very well; you may wish to read WP:REDIRECT#Do not change links to redirects that are not broken. Only a handful the double redirects should be fixed immediately, which I did [6]; now I fixed the remaining three. Duja► 07:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. 199.125.109.31 18:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The Motherland Calls

I of course more or less proposed the change, but is this not a bit premature, too early in the discussion? [7] and [8]? Mikkalai has not voted. Magnetic hill has not reacted to the Google evidence. Though I admire your WP:BOLDness which may perhaps wake some people up. Вставай, Родина-мать зовёт!

By the way, if it stays this way, then on the basis of the google evidence, we need redirects from "The Motherland Is Calling" and from "Mother Russia Calls". I propose that they are not made yet, because editors supporting those may think it is a way of pre-empting a new move to one of those. --Pan Gerwazy 14:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

What, Mikka is the Great Tzar of Russian part of English Wikipedia so nothing may pass without his approval? ;-).
I was routinely cleaning the WP:RM backlog, due 5 days have passed, and I found your and Russavia's arguments in the discussion entirely persuasive. I also agree that "Mother Motherland" is a clumsy translation. One way or another, I don't think that the issue justifies eventual move warring. Duja► 14:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Orasje (Varvarin)

Thank you for your help. I'm going to search the proper links for Orasje (Varvarin), if they exist ! Kindly, --82.121.174.29 15:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC) (fr:Utilisateur:Aristote2)

That's right ! I worked very hard ! But in fact, I can't feel responsible for bots I simply don't know ! I often check their adds, but it happens that I go on holyday !

I just had a look on your list : bravo ! If you want more information, don't hesitate to get them on serbian wikipedia. They also worked very hard during the summer in Serbia. But be cautious, in case of "ambiguity" in the name of the villages, there are many mistakes in the links fallingrain and maplandia. However, the statistics are precious. These days, I work to integrate the new serbian datas and I verify all the external links...

I'm very happy to meet you ! :) I feel less alone ! I hope that you understand my poor English (it's a pity) and I'm just a beginner at Serbian language ! Kindly. --82.121.174.29 16:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC) (fr:Utilisateur:Aristote2) = Pascal

Serb infoboxes reply from my talkpage

I have a bot that can switch all of those serb infoboxes to Infobox Settlement in about 10 minutes (athough it take me about an hour to program it). I did 15 test edits and everything looked good—see my contribs. I'll turn the bot on tomorrow morning (in about 10 hours or so from now)—MJCdetroit 03:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

(Let's continue here, I prefer centralized discussion just like you). I'd strongly prefer getting the "subclassing" approach to work instead, for several reasons:

• Easier maintenance. The {{Infobox Serbia municipality}} has far less parameters than Infobox settlement
• It has several carefully crafted features, which are difficult to simply achieve with Infobox Settlement, like:
  1. Custom left-column links to Serbian list of postal codes, list of area codes
  2. It takes advantage of standardization of map image names (Serbia XXX.png)
  3. It takes advantage of standardization of district article names (e.g. Mačva District)
  4. It has optional parameters of ruling parties, mayor and few other ones.
  5. It automatically prepends http:// prefix to the website, without the link (all websites are entered without it)
  6. Editors felt important to distinguish between "village", "town" and "city" for the population title (the infobox is currently used only for municipal seats, which can be either); there's {{{type}}} argument, which defaults to "town" unless specified otherwise.
  7. I also planned to add a common reference to all towns (a Serbian census document)
  8. Time zone is always the same

You missed a couple of those in the test run:

• {{pagename}} is not OK: there are several dabbed towns, like Raška (town). Should be {{{official_name}}} instead
• Postal code and the link to the list missing
• No {{{type}}} argument handled; (apparently) no {{{parties}}} argument handled

I understand that Infobox Settlement can be customized to achieve that, most of that can be fixed in the bot's code. However, I feel that the approach I tried provides much simpler interface for the editors, less effort to maintain, while still providing standardized look... and it's in the spirit of OO design :-), as the Serbian infobox just inherits the look and feel of the Settlement one (I plan to apply similar approach to Bosnia and Herzegovina as well, where there's much more of a chaos currently). Duja► 07:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll try to work on the "Wrapper" later today. —MJCdetroit 14:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

If you wish; however, I think I got it almost 99% working as desired, and I'll try to implement the changes tomorrow. Thanks for your help. Duja► 15:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I played with it a little bit. I think that if this is a customized wrapper for Infobox Settlement, we should try to incorporate the actual parameter names used by Infobox Settlement. For example, {{{population_total}}} instead of {{{pop}}}. I know that this is how the {{Infobox Serbia municipality}} does it now, but if we include the dual names I can have my bot deprecate the old Infobox Serbia munici names after you make the change. I think having the same names, where possible, is best in the long run. There are some fields like {{{district}}} and {{{settlements}}} that should stay unique. Also, is there never an area for the town or the city, only for the municipality? —MJCdetroit 17:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm fine with the argument name changes and the rest of your proposal. What should be the sequence of events? Merge User:Duja/temp into Infobox Serbia municipality first, then run the bot to change them?
As for the town area, I doubt that there are data, and I don't even know if the Statistics Office maintains it and if it's well-defined at all. Duja► 07:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a good plan: Merge User:Duja/temp (with dual paramter names) first. Then I'll have my bot got through and switch those parameter names. Finally, you'll have to come up will some type of explanation table and some examples for people working on Serbian articles to follow. —MJCdetroit 12:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I merged the User:Duja/Temp into {{Infobox Serbia municipality}} and updated the documentation at least partially (actually, it seems that I updated it too much, since not all "new" arguments are implemented). I'm sort of busy right now, so checking and tweaking is welcome. Duja► 13:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a few more tweaks, fixed a typo and turned the bot loose. It looks like the postal_code/postal field is not filled-in on many pages resulting in {{{postal}}}. I'm not sure if making postal_code not optional was planned or not, so I left it up to you to make optional or not. —MJCdetroit 16:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Detroiterbot is done. All is well. —MJCdetroit 16:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Apparently, postal was conceived as optional, but since there are data available, I'll put up the slieves and fill them in. Duja► 06:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me know when you do the Bosnia and Herzegovina infobox. —MJCdetroit 15:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Novi Sad

Dear Duja! I really dont understand you about deleting my comments at Novi Sad page steadily. I think hungarian reference must be accepted - as those references, only links to books written by Serb historians can be accepted too. Requirements could be changed consequent. Regards: Nemlehetigaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nemlehetigaz (talk • contribs) 13:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

OK!!!!!!

OK.... :) --PaxEquilibrium 10:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for YELLING, but I was hunting the article's history all over the Wikipedia... Duja► 10:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Novi Sad II.

Dear Duja! Thx for your answer and your explanation, now I understand everything. Besides, thanks for the interesting document too :) Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nemlehetigaz (talk • contribs) 14:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Tamburica

I know it was long time ago, but would you please try to remember what happened here? I'm half-watching this article and I don't recall anything resembling copyvio, and the history displays quite a normal development cycle. I can't google anything resembling an original page, nor there's a trace of evidence in Wikipedia namespace. Duja► 12:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember what I was thinking. Now it seems obvious that the information was original to Wikipedia, and stolen from here, rather than the other way around. I guess I saw some website which plagarized us and jumped the gun. The old material should stay reintroduced in my opinion. Thanks for catching my egregious error! -- Rmrfstar 13:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested move not completed correctly

Hi, regarding a request to move Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs (Greece) to Minister for National Education and Religious Affairs (Greece), you didn't actually complete the move correctly. While you changed Ministry to Minister, you neglected to change of to for. Would it be possible to correct this? Best, --Damac 10:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Done, thanks for pointing it out. Duja► 06:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Srpska sela

Da, unos na sr: je odavno završen. Što se tiče ažuriranja/unošenja članaka na engleskoj Vikipediji, za to nisam nešto posebno zainteresovan, a pravo da ti kažem, nemam ni vremena (fakultet opet krenuo, ima da se radi...). Mogu jedino da ti dam izvorni kod bota (pisan u Python-u), kao i podatke iz kojih sam uzimao podatke (sve ukupno oko nekoliko MB), a ti onda možeš da vršiš potrebne ispravke i dopune koda. --Filip (§) 11:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Obilaznica

Vidim da si zapoceo clanak o obilaznici oko Beograda. Mala sugestija: kako je ona deo projektovanog spoljnog magistralnog prstena oko grada, engleski termin beltway vise odgovara nego bypass. Pozdrav PajaBG 18:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Aha, hvala, nisam znao za termin. Ipak bih zadržao "bypass" kao ime članka, prosto zato jer google:"Belgrade bypass" ima 40 puta više pogodaka nego google:"Belgrade beltway". Napraviću redirekte i linkovati "beltway" u članku; možda bi trebalo spojiti Beltway i Bypass (road). Duja► 06:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

OK. Mada bajpas deluje nekako bolnicki :o) Ubacicu link u clanke gde se spominje obilaznica. Sto se tice spajanja ova dva clanka, ne bih se mesao u to. To je ipak pitanje za nekog kome je engleski maternji (ono sto jedna rec znaci u americi, ne mora da znaci isto u engleskoj ili australiji). PajaBG 17:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Re

LoLLL!! Šta se mene tiče moga je napisati da je lično Darth Vader, takvi fanatici mene nimalo ne živciraju. Tražia je da mu dam ruku, i pomoga sam mu.
Lik misli da je Al-Qaeda operativac? pa dobro, nema smisla proturiječiti. ;D (njega će uostalom Ameri na Wiki gledat kao da im je diga u zrak New York) DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 07:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

LoL ne zajebaji! Nisam tako mislia, bit je u tome da takvi radikalni radikali na Wiki nisu velika opasnost, oni će napisat neke gluposti, bit će blockani i tu će završit priča. Opasniji su tzv. "umjereni" nacionalisti koji će distortirat podatke na pametan i promišljen način i koje je mnogo teže zaustavit. Oni će uništit objektivnost Wikipedije na trajan način, pogotovo kad govorimo o relativno "opskurnim" područjima kao šta je bivša Juga. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrins

22.76% of all Catholics and 10.64% of all Muslims are nationally declared Montenegrins. Is that a small minority? --PaxEquilibrium 11:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Note also: this is from the shortened census, for the full census including the diaspora I have no data - but I know that an abundance of them declared Montenegrins, and that this percentage of Moslem Montenegrins is a bit underestimated. --PaxEquilibrium 11:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Return it then -- and source it please. Duja► 11:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

OK - btw most Catholics are Albanians and most Muslims are Bosniacs, rather. Cheers, --PaxEquilibrium 11:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Rouge admin

You're nominated, should you choose to accept the mission.[9] Durova^Charge! 17:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I already have, thanks; I unhumbly promoted myself after this. However, since I'm in a terrible conflict of interest, would you be so kind to hand a subtle cluebat to User:Bibliophilus (and revert his nationalist crap)? Duja► 20:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Izgovor

Malo si me zbunio sa primerima izgovora. Ali, prezime se cita bas kao i Lipovac, Gotovac, Rakonjac itd. Dakle bez ikakvog otezanja tipa Lipoovac, Gotoovac ili Lipoovac i sl. Nadam se da si na to mislio. Prezime Pokrajac se izvorno tako izgovora, ali u Srbiji se nekim cudom to izgovara kao Pokraajac. --Pockey 19:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Guipuscoa

Hello Duja. You might not have noticed, but when you moved this article, its talk page was left behind (as a Talk:Guipúzcoa page already existed). I suggest merging the talk pages. Best regards, Húsönd 15:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Done, thanks. It happens every while, if I forget to check it explicitly -- the software warning is less than prominent. Duja► 12:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

A "late" response to the closing of the RM at Yangon.

Having forgotten my RM of yangon to Rangoon, I found that you closed it saying that there is no consensus. However, it appears that there is one more supporting vote than opposing vote (seven v. eight). Your closing comments have also been responded to by Espoo. Apparently Rangoon is still more common in newer texts. Is there still a possibility iof the article being moved? Reginmund 00:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You're certainly free to re-run the RM; I did note in the closing comment that "Rangoon" is slightly favored both by sources and editors, but likely not enough to be closed in favor of move. Consensus can change though. Duja► 07:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian Latin or Cyrillic

In Bosnia and Herzegovina Cyrillic was in effect the sole script for 700 years until the Austro-Hungarian annexation in 1908. --PaxEquilibrium 17:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

. Duja► 07:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

True, it was more used in Yugoslavia than Latin - but both scripts, especially in the second YU, were attempted to be equalized. And why is it hardly relevant today? Teachers of Bosnian language still teach Cyrillic next to Latin, and though Latin is in wide usage - that doesn't change the fact that Bosnian is bi-script, just like Serbian (and unlike Croatian). --PaxEquilibrium 17:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It is hardly relevant today because you'll have to try real hard to find any publication claiming it's in Bosnian language and printed in Cyrillic. They're sure entitled to claim Cyrillic as an official script -- that doesn't change the fact that Bosnian is de facto single-script, just like Croatian (and unlike Serbian). Duja► 07:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Ever visited Sandžak? --PaxEquilibrium 21:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrin

Er..why remove that it's official from the intro? --PaxEquilibrium 23:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Pax, please see WP:BOLD and {{sofixit}}; you don't need my or anyone's approval for something unless we come into disagreement; I don't own those articles. My edit summary was "Avoid duplicate definitions in the lead", and if you read the entire intro, the notion of "official language" was -- and still is -- right there in its last sentence. Duja► 07:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Editing it against your will could make you revert it. And then the unwanted would arise. Double-checking never hurts, you will agree at least to this? :) --PaxEquilibrium 21:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No World for Tomorrow

Hey, I noticed you recently moved all Good Apollo, I'm Burning Star IV, Volume Two: No World for Tomorrow articles to simply No World for Tomorrow. I was wondering why you did this exactly? You said moving per the RM, so I assume that someone requested for it to be moved, but after a brief search, I couldn't find who. I would ask that the move is reverted (I know it may seem a pain to you to do another RM, and I apologize) as the full title is indeed Good Apollo... as stated by Claudio Sanchez (lead singer of the band) in a sourced interview shortly before it was released, and is in fact written inside the album cover. Thank you for your cooperation on this. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 10:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It was listed on WP:RM for a while (by User:MikeCerm), but when I checked the talk page, there wasn't a debate indeed; actually, it was removed by User:Harukaze, but not unlisted from the RM [10]. Having checked the band's official page, it's listed as "No World for Tomorrow", as well as on the album cover, and pretty much everywhere on the internet. I would argue for the shorter title on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and sancta simplicitas, and on the basis that "Good Apollo, I'm Burning Star IV, Volume Two:" could be treated as a subtitle. Generally, we don't do "official names" (hint: take a look at my closure at Talk:FC Dynamo Kiev, and subsequent complaining I expect on my talk page). In any case, I won't be terribly shaken by the revert of my move. Duja► 10:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

You do raise a good point with the sub-title (frankly, I find it odd that the band didn't title it on the cover "Good Apollo..." as they did with the first part). However, I maintain that the full title should be used, as it is with From Fear Through the Eyes of Madness, and as the full title is presented within the booklet. Since this was a requested move in the first place, am I correct in understanding that only a moderator could revert the move? (I'm sorry if this may seem like I'm ignoring your presented arguments, I just believe it'd be better as the full title). ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 12:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Nah, see WP:BURO. Just for practical reasons, I'll revert myself; I have a script for fixing double redirects. Duja► 12:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for you assistance here and apologies for any inconvenience caused. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 12:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Dynamo Kiev or Dinamo Kiev?

I am still not sure which one is accepted, although Kiev is confirmed. I always hear Dinamo Kiev at Hong Kong, but the club is always refer to Dynamo Kiev. Raymond Giggs 17:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Estonian pirates

Hello Duja. I was going to close the move discussion at Talk:Estonian pirates, but found myself deeply divided on whether to close as a no consensus or as a move, since the arguments and sources provided by the move side seem to be sound. You're an experienced "move-closer" as well so I decided to ask you and another admin a second opinion. So, if you can spare the time, could you please have a look and tell me how do you think you would you close this one? Thank you. Húsönd 04:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

D'oh... it was a pain to read... how many angels can fit on a needle top? I would probably close it as a "no consensus", as the advocates didn't mention this. However, they seem to reached a compromise now, at Talk:Estonian pirates#Estonian Viking Expeditions, so there we get a leeway. Duja► 08:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

IF YOU COULD HELP ME IN ANY WAY

Hi! First I would really thank wikipedia and, foremost, the people that make it going -- people like you. I come from a village in Herzegovina, and throughout this century it has vittnesed many atrosities. So I desided to make a page about it, on wikipedia. Among the thing that I wrote is the genocide aginst the Serbs in 1941, in Prebilovci. And on the title I used genocide -- a user named rijeka, from croatia, has just removed that bit.

600 women and children from my village, were in 1941 slaughtered and thrown into pits near surmanci, the place were virgin mary is said to have apeared. I wrote abut this -- and rijeca removed that bit. Maby he just doesn't want people knowing about it -- that virgin maty alledgedy apears to some Croats were they cilled Serbs during the genocide.

I've also created a page called Prebilovci Massacre, and because of that, he claims, has removed a great bit of my article on Prebilovci. Among that article, he has removed of what happended in 1991; the bodies of thoose who were massacred in 1941 were blown up by a bomb placed there by Croats.

I just think this is unfair. I see it this way: that's he's missusing his power on wikipedia. Chek it put yourself, then contact me and say what do you think.

Yours Very Thruly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WebsterMasters (talk • contribs) 15:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Point taken but...

I have a hard time not noticing your sarcasm in asking me to do something "useful instead" which makes me doubt your assertion that you are asking me "most kindly" to stop doing what I'm doing. True, removal of months old posts is mostly pointless so I will refrain from doing that in the future although I did not see a harm in removing unconstructive comments in the first place, regardless of how old they are. That point is taken, I concede on this one. However, I am certainly not indiscriminately deleting non-english post and most certainly I am not deleting posts that make a valid point that contribute towards improving a certain article. If you feel like looking at maybe the last 10 or 20 changes I made to tell me which comments I removed that made a valid point (other than the ones you already reverted -Talk:Zagreb, Talk:Banja Luka and Talk:Belgrade), I will be more than happy to discuss them with you and admit to my wrongdoing in order to stop it from happening again (keep in mind, I conceded to your point that I shouldn't be doing that to old, inactive discussions so let's not bring that up in the review of my changes). Out of utmost good faith, I was trying to contribute to articles by keeping focus on the article improvement rather than letting distractions related to the topic but unrelated to the article take centre stage. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mind taking a look at Talk:Toše Proeski on and around October 16, immediately after he died. Please look at what the discussion page looked like and how quickly it was deteriorating before I stepped in and then notice the difference afterwards. That was my motivation for what I've been doing and I thought it was "useful". Again, any of my activities in violation of Wikipedia rules and policies were a mistake with the best intentions in mind and, if they are seen as counter-productive, I will cease continuation of them. But please, discuss with me what I suggested above with regards to my deletion of comments with valid points because your comment on my talk page did come across as fairly patronizing and sarcastic. Thanks SWik78 17:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance

As a Rouge Administrator, do you have all the same powers as an Administrator? The reason I ask is because I've been working on some Chetnik and WWII articles in general and I found that someone rewrote the article Serb Chetniks Rescue U.S. Pilots during World War II to Operation Halyard. The second one was supposed to be a replacement for the first one, but now it can't be redirected because an article already exists. I wanted to see if you could redirect Serb Chetniks Rescue U.S. Pilots during World War II to Operation Halyard (which is the official name for the operation) or if not, maybe you could tell me how to go about getting it done. Thanks.SWik78 13:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, someone just did it. Thanks anyways. SWik78 02:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't around yesterday :-). See Help:Merging and moving pages; in the case at hand, there was no or little different contents in the "Serb Chetniks ..." article to deserve a "real" merge to Operation Halyard. Still, a proper procedure would be to say "merging from Serb Chetniks ..." in the edit summary, and slapping a {{R from merge}} template in the resulting redirect. Not a big deal in this case, but it's generally polite to preserve at least links to article's "real history" and other people's work. Duja► 08:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

...and, Rouge Administrator is sort of internal Wikipedia joke :-). Duja► 08:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I got the part that it's a joke. I guess I just don't get if Rouge admins are real admins. SWik78 13:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem coming

See Talk:FC Arsenal Kyiv. I have a hard time reading that discussion as a trending towards a consensus in favor of moving the article in accordance with the move of FC Dynamo Kiev, and continuing talk at that page discussing the close has not been very gracious. (As an aside, you do a lot of the tougher closes and you're good at them, but I wonder if this will encourage people to reopen discussions right after they're closed [something I was also guilty of as a much newer user].) It's undoubtedly true that the city is usually "Kiev", but it didn't seem clear to me on the Dynamo page that "Dynamo Kiev" was the more common appellation in English for the club. Anyway, it's clear that the naming conventions and consistency are clashing here. Let me know if there's any way I can help sort things out. Dekimasuよ! 03:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ugh; have I opened a Pandora's box? I haven't seen such a level of fan support yet... perhaps something to do with our traditional Eastern European spite?
I dislike taking the "they're all wrong and I'm right" stance, but I'd argue that "FC Arsenal" is actually the club's official name, and that "K**v" is sort of a tag or disambiguator; even if not, WP:COMMONNAME comes into effect. At least, I know that's the case with sport clubs in my country. The remainder of posters just rehashes the same dismissed arguments from Talk:Kiev
Still, the issue is lame enough, quote, "In the meanwhile can the article be protected from disruptive admins?" [11] to not deserve an edit war, but it's emerging. I've just semi-randomly encountered this huge WP:POINT [12]. Perhaps it time to take it to WP:AN (I)... Duja► 08:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Forer effect and Subjective validation

Subjective validation is related to Forer effect but it's not the exact same thing. Still, it has a redirect taking you to Forer effect when you search for subjective validation. I would like to write a full article on subjective validation but I guess I need than link freed up. Is that something you could do? SWik78 14:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you can just overwrite the redirect yourself:

1. Click Subjective validation;
2. You will get redirected to Forer effect, but with text "(Redirected from Subjective validation)" just below the title
3. Click that link, and you can edit the redirect page.

You can get there in a number of ways, including Special:Whatlinkshere/Forer effect ("What links here" in the "toolbox" in the left pane). Duja► 14:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Right. But if I want to write an article about subjective validation and make it a separate article from forer effect (because they're not really the same thing) how would I write that article and make sure that the link to subjective validation does not go to the same page as the link for forer effect because right now it does take you to the same article. SWik78 14:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm losing you... If you click here and replace the current text with anything you want & save it, you will have a separate article; of course, it should have references, categories, wikilinks and whatnot, but that's beside the point.
When you're done, you should check out the relevant articles on the similar topics and see if it's sensible to insert a link to subjective validation somewhere; currently there are 4, but maybe some of the ones currently linked to Forer effect might be better suited to link to "subjective validation". Duja► 14:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In a sense, both links are already articles -- both titles have text (or code) included in the page, and it's different text for each title, as you can see by clicking the edit buttons on the two pages. The only reason Subjective validation currently sends you to Forer effect is because the text at that page is actually code to send you to another (in this case Forer effect). So, as Duja said, if you delete it, it will no longer redirect, and whatever text you enter instead is what will be displayed when someone goes to Subjective validation. The only reason someone would still be redirected is if you write the article below the text currently there, without deleting it. WP:REDIRECT might have some more explanation on how redirects work, though it's mostly focused on why they exist. -Bbik^★ 15:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Help:Redirect contains the "technical" issues, acutally. Duja► 16:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Got it now. Thanks fellers! SWik78 15:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks re: Erdos Numbers

Thanks very much for your unlooked-for support at the Erdos Number Category deletion review. The original closing admin going against a two-to-one majority with his glib explanation made some of us feel rail-roaded. It's been a rough debate with very little common ground for rational discourse. An experienced admin stepping in to assert a comaptible interpretation is a breath of fresh air, to me, anyway. Pete St.John 22:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I visit DRV much in the same way that people like browsing a newspaper — part of a morning ritual. :-). Duja► 07:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

rogue vs rouge

I think by "rouge admin" you may mean "rogue admin"? Rouge is french for "red", and rogue is someone noted for going against authority (the connotation can be postive or negative). Pete St.John 22:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The pun is intentional, actually... But it gets spoiled when you say it. Duja► 07:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Duja

I wonder if you could help me. I am trying to learn Serbo-Croat (actually Croatian) and I run into words that are outside the scope of my rather small dictionary. It's a lovely language, if difficult, and I would appreciate the help of somebody as apparently sane as you are Many thanks SaundersW 22:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC) (User page is bare because ... it just is)

Sure, be my guess. I also frequent this forum, where you can find some helpful people. Duja► 08:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! To begin: "Kod pretjerano trijeznih ljudi jedino me smeta njihovo posvemašnje sljepilo." Exaggeratedly sober people only disturb me with their universal blindness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaundersW (talk • contribs) 13:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, more or less; it's a fairly difficult sentence to begin with :-). I'd perhaps pick "bother me" rather than "disturb me" or "all-around" rather than "universal", but that would be nitpicky (and my English is not so perfect to be able to translate all nuances flawlessly)
I like a similar saying:
"One should be moderate in everything. Even in moderation." Duja► 13:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you: that's brilliant and I'm grateful for your pointing out the nuances. I'm aware it's not the simplest stuff that I'm trying to read. By the way the author of that sentence would also appreciate the paradox that you like, I think. SaundersW 13:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see: Google is your friend :-). Duja► 13:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You know, it would be if that hadn't been the original source of the sentence! SaundersW 14:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I got that, and the identity of "Reader 09.11.2007." — "GITF" was meant as a side remark, not in the "RTFM" sense. Duja► 14:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent detective work, Sherlock! Anyway, yes, this is the stuff on which I'm trying to cut my teeth. Ambitious, maybe, but rewarding! SaundersW 14:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the tone of the above should be read as smiling, too! SaundersW 18:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

New question, sir: how do you pronounce "shvatio"? I can manage "hvala" (i hvala vam, Duju), but the s in front seems a lot of consonants. Thanks! SaundersW 13:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

In principle, just like that, i.e. ['sxʋatio:] :-). In practice, that would be along the lines of ['sʋatio:], even for native speakers, especially in fast speech.
Oh, and vocative of "Duja" is "Dujo" — I can't recall the rule exactly, but -u occurs only for masculine nouns ending in a palatal (kralju, konju, stroju) :-) Duja► 07:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks: those three consonants were seriously twisting my tonsils. Now I have another couple of words: "zdilate", (pa da zdilate ispod stola) and "Čiča miča". Same source! Hvala Dujo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaundersW (talk • contribs) 11:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"Zdilati" sounds heavily ikavian/Dalmatian dialectal; offhand, I'd say that it's cognate to Russian сделать (=to have done =uraditi), but I need some context to confirm — I'm not positive that I even heard the word in Croatian.
"Čiča miča" is part of the idiom (um, not quite appropriate term—know of a better one?) "čiča miča i gotova priča", which marks the end of a bedtime story. Sort of "The end of story." or "period." Duja► 12:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, got it [13]. Hey, you should have warned me that this was going to be an exercise in Croatian slang — I was expecting some basic stuff :-O. Having performed some GSearches, I still have to guess it from the context — wherever I find it, it's so heavy slang that I can barely get through it myself :-). It seems to mean "to deal" (and is cognate with it), in the sense of dealing {dope, anything illegal/under the shelf}, "to smuggle", and like. Duja► 12:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That is so kind! Well, I guess that you are gaining an obscure education at the same time... Not to disrespect your Serbian identity in any way, I have been trying to find a Croatian contributor who is, how shall we say, peaceable, but the two that I tracked down have left. As I said, sanity is paramount, and in the sense of moral and not narrow mental sanity. Okay, to try my terrible BHS on you: vrlo koristan si i strpljiv! SaundersW 12:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have a schizophrenic "Serbo-Croatian" identity of Bosnian origin, but that doesn't mean I can pick up whatever local slang is thrown at me :-).
Since you're learning, the proper word order is
Vrlo si koristan i strpljiv.
but please don't ask me what the rule is — the rules of clitic placement in BHS are awfully complex (far more than the rules on vocative suffix :P ); I recall even seeing a scientific analysis on how foreign students pick it up. Duja► 12:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Whee! This is very helpful! nema nikoga što mi pomogne s gramatike hrvatske. SaundersW 13:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not that far from English (except when it is); my superficial observation is that knowing French helps with word order and general spirit (at least in one direction: I find that French sentences require less mental adjustment to me to compose than English ones). So:

Nema nikoga (da mi pomogne) = There's nobody (that helps me)/(to help me), [using present tense and da]

Nema nikoga (ko bi mi pomogao) = There's nobody (who would help me), [using conditional],

but not

Nema nikoga (što mi pomogne)= There's nobody (what helps me) [wrong in both]

i.e.

Also,

s hrvatskom gramatikom = with Croatian grammar (instrumental) or

oko hrvatske gramatike = about/regarding Croatian grammar (genitive) Duja► 14:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The hard part is that prepositions "want" to be accompanied with a different case, but there's no intuitive rule which one; you have to learn it by heart. Take stol (table) for example:

Gen	od	stola	away from	the table
	sa		[fall] off
	preko		over
	iza		behind
Acc	za	stol	[in the process of sitting] at	the table
	pod		[hide] under
Dat	ka	stolu	towards	the table
	pri		near
Ins	sa	stolom	with	the table
	za		[to be seated at] at
	pod		under
Loc	o	stolu	about	the table
	na		on [top of]
	u		[with]in

Lažem: nije imalo nikoga da mi pomogne oko gramatike hrvatske. I can see how French may be similar, especially with the strict ordering of the clitics around French verbs. The preposition-and-case business is also familiar from long-ago Latin and German lessons, but it is all a matter of remembering it all at once! SaundersW 15:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet another bizarre rule and parallel: the present is "nema nikoga" but the past is "nije bilo nikoga"; I would probably never think of it myself if I had not hear you erring. No, I've never learned French well enough to use avoir vs. soir correctly in the past tense. :-)
Am I too obstinate in correcting you? You're doing well actually... Duja► 15:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to poke my way into this section on you two. Does that table mean prepositions always take the same case in Serbian, no matter what? Or can some cases vary depending on the situation? And sentence construction in French is easier than English? That's interesting. I can't remember ever having issues with French, beyond adjusting to the whole gender-of-objects thing (either that or I just "got it", which I wouldn't put past me, it's the only way I can write in German). Though, French was long enough ago that I've forgotten most of it by now. Maybe it's somewhere between English and BHS, so that it's more comfortable on both ends? (I'll give some feedback on your order once I actually have enough to work with to even write a sentence!) -Bbik^★ 15:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Hallo Bbik! Duja, you are being very patient and helpful! I've been working moderately hard at this for about six months, but it has all been reading, with very little writing, and I clearly haven't paid enough attention to the case endings! The general rule in French is that most verbs use "avoir" in the past, except for reflexives (eg se lever, to get up), reciprocals (eg s'écrire, to write to each other) and a handful that relate mostly to movement (eg aller, to go, venir, to come, mourir, to die) and compounds of the last lot. By the way, have you noticed how similar Cro verb endings are to Italian? Oh, and another interesting oddity: in French ç is not regarded as a different letter from c, unlike in Cro. And Bbik, I understand that there is the same accusative-motion, dative-position rule in Cro as in German. SaundersW 15:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh, German's a lot more of a mess than that, idioms and exceptions everywhere. Even the ones that are "always" one case use other cases sometimes. Though if BHS actually follows its rules, that alone would make it easier... For that matter, are there actually fewer exceptions, or are they just not teaching us any of them so we don't get scared off (yet)? -Bbik^★ 15:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Re prepositions: the correspondence is typically 1 prep:1 case or 1 prep:2 cases (notice the duplicates above, like sa). In the latter case, semantics slightly change. The typical alteration is "dynamic:static", akin to English into vs. in. For example, na/u kutiji (Loc) = on/in the box but na/u kutiju (Acc) = onto/into the table.
Re French: my point was only that French sentence construction is generally more similar to BHS than English one; I can't recall concrete examples at the moment though (e.g. English tends to be more rigid with SVO-adverbs order than French and BHS). But I think that your parallel with "being more confortable on both ends" is accurate. Duja► 15:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

One of these days I'm going to have to learn English grammar... I remember years ago, someone tried to explain the whole accusative/dative change with the in/into example, and it didn't help me at all, because I almost never use into (or onto, or similar). I know what it's supposed to mean by now, but... at this point, I think every bit of grammar I know, for any language, is all based on what I can understand of German, rather than anything in my native language. Tenses might cross that border a bit, but only sometimes. -Bbik^★ 16:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

May I share an amazing resource, but one that is very dense and thus rather exhausting to read? [14] It's a handbook of BHS grammar, better for revision than learning, maybe. SaundersW 15:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I actually found that a day or two ago after some poking through Duja's forum link, but thanks! And yeah, it's not much good for me right now, unfortunately, it does more explaining than actual teaching. I could probably make it work, but I'm not sure I have the patience for that much detail when I'm still working on the very basics. We'll see what happens once this semester ends and I have no option for taking the class anymore. -Bbik^★ 16:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And I have a tricky sentence: "I tako se zateknemo uskoro u priči o tome tko je što zadnje pročitao." And so we soon find ourselves in the story about which ??? read earlier. SaundersW 15:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's tricky in English too: "...story about who has read what last". Um, not good. "...debate what was the last thing one/we had^(have?) read". Slightly better. Duja► 16:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And one more: would "regarding words" be "oko riječova"? SaundersW 17:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"Oko riječi" (Alt & Browne, §2.1.2.3, p.35). Duja► 07:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hvala! SaundersW 08:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Is it reči in Serbian, too, or's it rečevi then? (I can actually follow that part! Woo!) -Bbik^★ 11:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Serbian and Croatian declension and conjugation are identical. Apart form E/Ije rendering of yat, the principal differences are in vocabulary; some minor ones in morphology. See Differences. Duja► 12:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I suppose an explanation would be more useful: "r(ij)eč" is one of relatively rare feminine words ending in a consonant (like krv, čast and a number of ones formed as adjective+ost, denoting a characteristic, like glupost=stupidity). Those have fairly simple declension, with -i in most cases.
Plurals -i, -ovi or -evi are for masculine nouns (the latter two mostly for monosyllabic words, e.g. ključ->ključevi (key)). They're still the same in Sr and Cr. Duja► 12:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Reč is feminine? Yeah, that explains it better. The question originally was me wondering if the "ij" counted as an extra syllable, thereby cancelling out the monosyllabic -evi/ovi plural form. But if it's actually feminine, rather than an exception... (I take it the yat changes never count as extra syllables, either, insofar as grammar is concerned?)
Hmm. So is dan feminine too, or simply an exception? Noć has been repeatedly noted as feminine, but there's been no gender specification for dan, only that the plural is dani. -Bbik^★ 13:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dan is masc, but noć is fem. But there aren't too many such (f.) nouns, as I noted. As for "ij", there's actually a debate whether -ije- is one or two syllables (see Shtokavian dialect#The yat reflexes): I tend to say it's one, just like jat was. (cf. masc. pl. snijeg->snjegovi and bijes->bjesovi, as well as vrijes->vrijesovi and lijes->lijesovi: the suffix is always -ovi but the first syllable may or may not be subject to shortening). Duja► 13:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

(restarting indent) One very banal thing I find helps to remember gender is to try to attach an adjective to the noun in memory, such as "Dobar dan" which means "dan" must be masculine. Clearly the method failed with "riječ". No words today, hooray! SaundersW 13:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Crazy Croatian spelling! Is there anything in the South Slavic languages that isn't under some form of debate? If languages exist, how many more dialects can become full-fledged languages, what to do with all these yat/jat variations...

Do adjectives agree with the gender of words, regardless of anything else? Unlike the noun endings themselves, which seem to agree with the gender-group their spelling puts them in, rather than actual gender? -Bbik^★ 15:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

<first part of the question, containing a typical foreigner's rant ignorant of our 2,000+ thousand years long culture(s) conveniently ignored :-P >

Yes, the adjectives always agree with the noun's gender: prva noć. On the plus side, I must notice that the number of exceptions to the ending-determines-gender rule is fairly small compared with French and German.
Another significant exception group are masculines-ending-in-a, like sudija, sluga, gorila, komunista and many other in -sta, denoting professions or followings. However, those decline like fem. ones, and have sort of "volatile" gender. I'm not even certain, but I think the adjective plural for those might be either f. or. m, equally (verne sluge vs. verni sluge. The latter sounds wrong to me, but I'll have to check), making it an exception from the general adjective-noun agreement. Duja► 15:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Try "amused foreigner's vague teasing" :-p Much as I do think it's kind of silly (I cannot imagine the deep south's dialect being called a different language. At all. And that's the closest parallel I can relate to.), and probably have a less than basic understanding of everything behind these debates, it does still very definitely amuse me that they exist. And besides, with all the exceptions and counterintuitive rules that English has, what right do I have to be too picky about another language? (Btw, two thousand thousand years? That's an awfully long time!)

Heh, there are no gender-determining rules, based on ending or otherwise, in German (don't remember French well enough), just guidelines. Serbian genders are fantastic! I don't even have to memorize stupid articles with the words to be able to conjugate (can you conjugate a noun?) the words correctly, just remember three nice, easy, straightforward groups, a few smaller groups, and a couple exceptions. I can handle that. -Bbik^★ 16:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• big grin* Nouns decline... I think that they just keel over and die given the battering that we foreigners give them. Another thing I love about BHS is the way that it hasn't been inflated by foreign loanwords so that almost all words to do with travel have "put" in them, and so on. Add that to a logical set of suffixes and prefixes and it's beautifully logical (mostly...) SaundersW 16:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

rear admiral and/or Rear Admiral, but Rear admiral?

I posted the following on the talk page, but as yet have had no response. Perhaps you can explain it to me?

I've read the above discussions with interest, and I can understand how it could be titled "rear admiral" or "Rear Admiral", but I can not understand how the above discussion resulted in "Rear admiral". The most quoted example is "Rear Admiral X is a rear admiral". "Rear admiral X is a Rear admiral" was never justified, or even advocated, yet that's what the article ended up being called. Can someone explain this to me please? Pdfpdf 14:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks in anticipation of your reply, Pdfpdf 12:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Rear admiral. Duja► 12:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

IPA for Gomel

I appreciate your concern Duja, however you will find that I merely based my most recent post on another by Maksdo[15] (which it appears that he had now deleted). Since it was just personal attacks, I modified where they pointed to show him how inane his posts are. However, if there is something that he disagrees with in my edits, I would be happy to clarify them and all of that could have worked fine if he hadn't started personally attacking me.Reginmund 15:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I saw that post too, and it wasn't a model of civility either. And you're escallating it. The entire issue is pretty lame. Duja► 15:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, contrary to the urban legend, I am not being stubborn. I realise that you are a sysop and I think that it would be wise not to jump to such conclusions immediately. So, yes, it is my accurate belief that /ˈɡɔmʌl/ is an accurate IPA translation. If someone disagrees with me, they may always review and discuss each glyph and determine whether or not it corresponds to given IPA. Now, please tell me how this is original research and I am not ready to withdraw my other accusations of this action to others. Reginmund 15:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's talk it through then: you have yet to proof your "accurate belief". The very page you use as a reference says it's an [e], not an [ʌ]. The m-w [16] says it's an [e], not an [ʌ]. Please find one (1) English or even foreign word where letter "e" is pronounced as an [ʌ]. I don't have speakers on my computer here so I can't check the sound sample, but it's not even necessary. At least 2 different people before me have pointed to you that it cannot be an [ʌ], providing 2 different references, and here I am as third. Go ask at WP:RDL if you don't trust me too. Duja► 15:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The very page I use as reference doesn't even use the IPA. Or in another case, the ʌ is excrutiatingly close to ə. So here's my accurate beleif you have so kindly emphasised with your inverted commas. In this instance, it stays the same, give or take stress on a certain vowel. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. An audio clip may be debatable but certainly not unciteable. If, however, it comes under such controversy, it would be better to use a text citation. I henceforth add a citation to Merriam-Webster. If something so simple as this would have been addressed like it should (and I believe you should know), there would be less angst around this issue, wouldn't there? Reginmund 01:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

More coding questions

Hey Duja! Any idea if there's a way to make that "I'll respond here" header float to the left of the archive box without putting the two in a table? It would be nice if the archive box could set the distance between the top of the box/header and the bottom of the away message, and then have text to the left of the box still, once the header ended, rather than the text waiting until both are done, or having the header separate and taking up so much more space.-Bbik^★ 15:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Something like this? It's easier to draw than to describe... Duja► 08:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yup! Thanks. :) Seems I was at least on the right track with what I was trying... just couldn't quite figure it out on my own. -Bbik^★ 12:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and that's a nice little forum link a couple sections up, too... so much good stuff in there! :D (Have I mentioned I found myself a Serbian class, in German? I'm not going to be able to keep all these languages straight by the time I'm done...) -Bbik^★ 15:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned that you had that idea, and that you deemed it [slightly] crazy yourself :-). Well, good luck... Duja► 08:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be going fairly well, aside from the whole learn the vocab thing (What, that's important? No way!), though we haven't actually done much yet. It should be interesting when the first test comes, whenever that'll be. -Bbik^★ 12:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I tried learning Spanish through French medium: that was tricky since the vocabulary was much easier for the native French speakers. Still, all best wishes to you! SaundersW 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Tose Proeski

I've been reverting an edit from an unregistered user whose IP seems to change all the time. The IP looks something like this 70.52.(176)(177)(178).(29)(203)(180)(43)(30)(191)(228). The numbers in brackets are the ones that change. He keeps adding a link in the references section that really doesn't belong there. First of all, the link is never referenced in the article and second, it seems to be nothing more than a link to a site with some wallpapers, one of which is a wallpaper (or "panorama" as the site calls it) of Tose. Others have reverted the addition of this link from the user as well. I'm just wondering if there's anything that can be done because he can't really be blocked (because of the changing IP) and I don't want to get in trouble for revert warring even though it's basically vandalism. Thanks. SWik78 13:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate comment on ANI

I was rather surprised that an experienced Wikipedian editor should think that this is an appropriate comment to make, especially in a public forum. You might like to consider whether you should withdraw that comment which just seems unnecessarily offensive. Spenny 10:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No I won't. I do have a deep respect for GTBacchus, which I also expressed in that comment, but I also have a deep aversion towards overt political correctness and "thought-policing", in the sense that whatever thing might be considered offensive should be removed. (And I find your request in exactly that spirit: it's for GTBacchus to be offended, not you.) He nicely asked if he was an asshole for pursuing the matter: in turn, I nicely—if bluntly— explained that he was, in my opinion. Duja► 10:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If you think politeness is political correctness, then I can understand why you make the comment. However, the point is that the two are not synonymous. I am also surprised that you should claim it is only for the target of an uncivil comment to make the complaint. To create a community spirit, everyone is responsible. Anyway, I raised it just in case you hadn't realised how bad it looked to a third party. Moving on. Spenny 11:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I think that [arbitrary] enforcement of politeness constitutes political correctness. I did realize how bad it might look to a third party before I posted it though, and thought twice about it, before finally deciding that GTBachuss is mature and thick-skinned enough to get the message without being offended. Moving on too. Duja► 11:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right that I don't take your comment personally. I appreciate your remarks, although I think I disagree with you... I'm mulling it over. I don't like the idea of enforcing politeness, but I'm willing to request politeness, and make a case for it. I didn't, for example, delete the images myself, or nominate them for deletion. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

thank you, Duja, for saying what I was thinking but didn't dare to type. I guess I'm turning into more of a Wikipedian than I thought. heavens to mergatroid! Jeffpw 17:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

One more comment, and I'll leave this alone, but... "whatever thing might be considered offensive should be removed" I don't agree with that at all, and if I came across that way, then I failed to articulate what I was thinking. I don't support removing whatever "might" be offensive; that's madness. However, when someone has already been offended, and has asked that their feelings be taken into consideration, then I think it's in keeping with basic human kindness to do that person a favor and at least seriously consider their request, although I wouldn't call it mandatory to comply with their wishes.

Yes, as I think about it, I'm increasingly convinced that you think I was saying something that I wasn't really saying. My main point is that it's far classier not to say "give us your fucking money", and not that anything needs to be enforced upon anyone. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Outside View

Nobody cares what nobodies think, but maybe you should. GTB was pretty clearly NOT proposing forcing anything, he just gave his opinion and asked that people think about it. You disagreed, so you called him an "asshole". Am I missing something? I don't know any of you, and I have no stake in this, but that's just so obviously inappropriate. Like it or nor, lots of people read those boards, and what they see there helps form their impression of the community.

You "nicely" explained to someone, during a legitimate debate, that you think he's an asshole? Really? I'd hate to see you when you're not nice. The irony is that I find such behaviour vastly more offensive than the original topic (which I really don't care about), and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. I also bet you're resourceful enough to have made your point without resorting to name-calling. Am I wrong?

Seriously, I bet you'd be a popular bartender, 'cause like, cheap shot. sNkrSnee | t.p. 05:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the thought; at the same time, I'm pretty sure Duja answered my question in a spirit at least as good as that in which I asked it, when I was rather frustrated. I'm the one who actually used the word "asshole". From my end, it was a surprising interaction, but not an offensive one. Duja and I have worked together, and I'm confident that our mutual respect is not strained.

That said, it is good to remember that these boards are all entirely public, and that our words here do help form people's impressions of the site. I'm know that I sometimes fail to weigh that consideration as much as I'd like to. Come to think of it, that's pretty much the point I was hoping to make on AN/I. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I certainly don't want to speak for you, and if I gave that impression I'm really sorry. I came here from the AN/I, due to the comment, expecting to see either a ready apology, or that you two were familiar colleagues busting each other up. Instead, you seemed bewildered, while Duja expressly defended the epithet, and implicitly widened the net to include Spenny, above. You seem to interpret his comments as him somehow misunderstanding your (very clear) position; I read it as claiming that your very position justified the insult, and it's nobody else's business.

As we seem to agree, regardless of your reaction (and you seem gracious), this is hardly the optimal image to project, particularly by an admin on a high-profile quasi-official *encyclopedia* page (ie your original point in a different context, hence the irony). I'm sure there's a number of acronymic policies I could reference here, but it just seems self-evident, at least to an outsider, which is the only perspective I offer. It's my opinion that this sort of display lowers general respect for the integrity of the project (I think understandably), and makes newcomers less likely to want to participate, and maybe oldtimers too.

Finally, I perceive a huge difference between saying the word "asshole" (rhetorically and self-referentially, as I read it) and calling someone else one (metaphorically and sincerely). And I think to then say "...with due respect otherwise" is clearly sarcastic - I mean, how far can one AGF?

Anyway, those were my points, and I thought them worth making, though it's really not my habit to barge in like that, and I'm sorry for any inconvenience. But yes, this episode does seem to help illuminate your original point, which I hope has provided you (GTB) at least a moment of fleeting satisfaction. sNkrSnee | t.p. 08:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I could have said "no, you weren't an asshole, but I do think that you were tad overzealous...". On the semantical level, that would probably mean the same. But—pointy as it may seem—the remark I actually made was far too provocative; I didn't really expect three different people to come to my talk page to state their discontent about it. I might not—and likely haven't—changed your opinion on the matter, but I'm trying to convey the message that enforcement of civility can sometimes make the atmosphere even more poisonous than it would be if everyone around went saying "fuck" all the time. People need safety venting sometimes.
Was the price that you now think that I'm an asshole (you do, don't lie to yourself, although I don't expect you to say it) too high? Maybe. Duja► 09:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Duja, and thank you for that. It's pretty late here, and I wasn't planning on responding further, but I think you deserve a response (I'll try and be brief). I thought you had a valid point all along, as well as GTB, and I was undecided. I think that the way you went about it actually obscured your argument, and that it would have been far more effective if you had simply said "... a tad overzealous". In fact, I now lean more to his(?) position because I think me coming here and making a stink is a good example of how incivility (even perceived) causes needless misunderstandings and drama. This was completely unintentional, mind you, it just turns out that way. If I read you correctly, you are now more open to that possibility yourself, and if so I find that commendable.

Which brings me to your other question, in that you're now asking if I think you're one (I think). So, no, I don't think you're an asshole. Honest. I try not to label people, and we've only had this one interaction, I was blunt, you remain civil. Given your comments, I do think you were [a] tad overzealous earlier.

See? Much better, and I think it still gets the point across. Anyway, if GTB says it's cool I'm inclined to hear him, and I believe you when you say you don't really think poorly of him. So, no hard feelings, certainly no price paid, just some things to think about. Sorry for pooping on your talkpage. sNkrSnee | t.p. 10:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[Well, timezone & editing time difference sort of spoil the conversation]
Just as I predicted, GTBacchus exactly understood the message in the way I meant to: as a voice of dissent on the matter of how we define civility and politeness, and what to do when our high expectations in this area are not met.
Actually, I don't think that GTBacchus is an asshole in any way, nor do I think he's a thought policeman; just, he was a bit overzealous in that thread. And, I'm sure he woulnd't take a [too much] grudge against me for this. Yes, I do agree that it would be far classier not to say "give us your fucking money", but I wanted to defend their right to say it (if I were in a pointy mood, I could upload an image saying "please give us your well-earned money"; not a classy thing to do either).
Re Snickersee's "I also bet you're resourceful enough to have made your point without resorting to name-calling. Am I wrong?"—no, you're right—but doing that kill the shock-value—the same shock-value that the original giveit.jpg provided (judging on the lengths of both ANI and this thread). My point? Sometimes the best way to convey the message is to put it bluntly. Duja► 08:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh?

Hi. I'm puzzled by your remark on AN/I... not offended, just puzzled. Did you just say that asking other people to treat each other with consideration makes one a jerk? -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, now I see the above section. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Novi Sad - After the First World War)

Hello. Koja je procedura za delimicno "zakljucavanje" clanka, jer me izdaje strpljenje u pogledu ispravljanja izmena u sekciji "After the First World War" clanka o Novom Sadu? Jdjerich 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Možeš tražiti na WP:RFPP, ali odmah će te odbiti. Mogao bih ja da ga zaključam, ali bilo bi vrlo ne-etički (upotreba administratorskih ovlašćenja u debati oko sadržaja). Stoga, moraš se naoružati strpljenjem... Zen, prijatelju. Duja► 09:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Duja/It's sourced

• User:Duja/It's sourced

I think that this is a nice summary of Wikipedia:Reliable sources and to some extent WP:V. Perhaps if we came up with a more descriptive, yet still succinct name for it. (It seems to describe the sense of wishing quality over quantity.) Dubious sources? Misleading sources? Quantity of sources is misleading? The problem, I suppose is that I presume that we want what the "argument" would be, which is, as you state: "It's sourced". Maybe if we add "but": "But it's sourced". - jc37 04:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I offered it for inclusion at WT:ATA#Disputing the addition of "ITSSOURCED" section, but it was conveniently ignored, so I decided not to push it. If you like it, your support is welcome (of course, I don't own the page as well)... Duja► 09:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Gipuzkoa move

I noticed you effected the name move of this article a few weeks ago, in spite of absolute lack of consensus in the discussion (two opinions for and two opinions against). Furthermore, you moved it to a term that is unofficial and not used in English (only rarely and with political motivation in Spanish) and that, as I mention in the discussion, has no use whatsoever in English as it is now.

I request that you undo your wrongdoing.

--Sugaar 09:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Greetings + Question

Hello. I am new to Wikipedia, but seem to be already caught in an edit war over at Bosniaks article. I saw your name in the history so I thought to ask you this question. Is it appropriate for someone to keep inserting that Bosniaks are not Slav because they have some Illyrian blood in them? I thought that ethnicity had to do with language, culture and customs, and since Bosniaks have Slavic customs, culture and language, isn't it safe to assume they do indeed belong to the Slavic ethnic group? Greetings. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. We worked out our dispute. Hoorah!!! Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Help with Croatian needed

Hello Duja, could you help me with a text in (I think) Croatian? This, in the last paragraph, says something about early 1990s draft Macedonian banknotes that showed the White Tower of Thessaloniki. The story has been referenced in several articles on WP, including the White Tower one, but we have no information about how "official" these drafts were. Who made them, for what purpose, how close did they ever come to being adopted, what was the degree of involvement/responsibility for these drafts by the government? Could you check if that source says anything usable about this? Thank you, Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Fut. Niko asked first through e-mail, so I replied that way; you're in the CC. Briefly, they appear to be completely private attempts. Duja► 08:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Illyrians

...I claim that I have more noble Illyrian blood than you.

lolz! ;P --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)