User talk:BogatusAB
Happy Easter, 2014! BogatusAB (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
NPOV Noticeboard[edit]
Finnedi has now brought the matter to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, but since he failed to notify you, as he should have, I'm doing it for him. Thomas.W talk to me 08:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Thomas - Happy Easter! If I had noticed your message in time, this is what I might have responded to Finnedi:
Although the oldest known Swedish account was written as late as the 14th century (Eric's Chronicle), the term Kven (in slightly varying spellings) can be found in both Swedish and Norwegian - and other - old writings after the 14th century. Other terms for "Kven" have been used as well, most notably the terms Birkarlar (Birkarls) and Caienska, both in slightly varying spellings. There are old references to Kvenland too (e.g. "Caienska Semla"), which were printed after the 14th century.
Unlike user Finnedi stated, Professor Julku alone has provided more than just the one translation for the term "Caieska Semla", which Finnedi pointed out with a support of a net link - Caienska Semla = North Bothnia [1]. Even that link provides another translation too - Caienska Semla = Kainuu [2].
The oldest Norwegian tax records remaining, stored at the National Archives of Norway, "Riksarkivet", dating to the mid-1500s, mention Kvens (by that term).
The 1539 map Carta Marina by Olaus Magnus shows "Bercara Qvenar" (Birkarl Kvens) written atop Northern Scandinavia. In 1555, Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus (History of Northern Peoples) by Olaus Magnus describes the Finnish traders inhabiting and commuting between the northern coastal area of the Gulf of Bothnia and Norway as "Kvens".
Below are a few quotes (there may be more) from Julku's book 'Kvenland - Kainuunmaa' (1986), which include further translations for the terms "Caienska" (in varying spellings) and "Caienska Semla":
Page 114 (map from 1570): "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) Jäämeren rannalla aivan kartan ylälaidassa." (Free translation to English: "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) on the coast of the Arctic Ocean, at the very top of the map.")
Page 115 (map from 1595): "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) aivan kartan ylälaidassa Jäämeren rannalla." (Free translation to English: "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) at the very top of the map, on the coast of the Arctic Ocean.")
Page 118 (map from 1595): "Vuoreijan ja Varangin vuonon länsipuolisen alueen nimenä Kainuu, "Caienska Semla"." (Free translation to English: "Kainuu, "Caienska Semla", as the name of the territory located west from Vardø and Varangerfjorden.")
Page 118 (map from 1613): "Siinä on vielä Jäämeren "Caienska Semla"." (Free translation to English: "There is still "Caienska Semla" of the Arctic Ocean.")
In the same book, Julku shows examples of old uses of the term "Caienska" (in slightly varying spellings) in reference to the Kven Sea (Kainuun meri), today known as the Gulf of Bothnia. However, the earliest known reference to Kven Sea ("Qwensae"), from c. 890 CE, appears to have referred to the entire Baltic Sea, when King Alfred the Great noted that where Germany ends, the Kven Sea ("Qwensae") begins.
E.g. the Russians are known to have referred to the Gulf of Bothnia as "Kainuun meri" (Kainuunmeri / "Kven Sea") or "Kajaanin meri", Julku points out (page 95). Julku brings up the following documented old spellings for Kainuunmeri (pages 94-96):
• "Kajano more" (in the Peace Treaty of Pähkinäsaari) in 1323 • "kajano more" in c. 1336-1351 • "mare Koen" in 1497 • "Kainw (Cainus) mare" in 1504 • "mare Kayno" in 1510 • "Cayana mare" • "mare Caino" in 1535 • "mare Caino" in 1537 • "Kaynus mehre" in 1561.
Below is another similar list - not from Julku:
• "Qwensae", by King Alfred the Great in the Universal History of Orosius in 890 • "Kajano more", in the Peace Treaty of Pähkinäsaari in 1323 • "mare Cayane" in 1497 • "Kainw Mare" in 1497 • "mare Kayano" in 1510 • "Cayane mare" in 1535 • "mare Caino" in 1535 • "Kaynys mehre" in 1561 • "Cwen Sea", by Johann Reinhold Forster in 1772. - - BogatusAB (talk) 17:54, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Rel Kven info[edit]
1. Thank you for the detailed info concerning, e.g., the early usages of the terms. Please place future info of this nature at the article talk page so that any user(s) wishing to incorporate your specific references into tagged article info can do so.
2. As I've noted and explained there at the King of Kvenland talk page and also at the Kvenland talk page, there is a single threshold sourcing problem that must be overcome B4 any of this matters, B4 any info about King Chas9 as king of Kvenland can qualify 2B in a WP article.
3. The same no original research policy does also apply to use of this related info which it appears you have very ably laid out. (I moved what you placed at my talk page to the Kvenland talk page.) This cornerstone policy of WP's is extremely clear: In order to include an idea in a Wikipedia article, one or more published scholars or in any case reliable published sources must have INDIVIDUALLY "gone out on a limb" and made that exact assertion. It's strictly not allowed to take the "pieces of the puzzle" and work with them, build them using, e.g., bits and pieces from various sources--even just TWO separate sources--and/or your own reasonable analysis, inferences, etc., into your own new ideas. Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi, BogatusAB. I saw your message on Finnedi's page. I don't know if you're aware that Finnedi was indefinitely blocked on April 12 and has been creating a stream of increasingly malevolent sockpuppets since then. I'm pretty sure this list is incomplete. A lot of pages have had to be temporarily semiprotected to be out of harm's way. It's up to you, but Wikipedia may not be the most appropriate place for communicating with Finnedi any longer. Bishonen | talk 18:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC).