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Ongoing personal attacks by User:Skookum1[edit]

Despite by blocked for 48 hours for unspecified reasons ([1]) by User:Fayenatic london, User:Skookum1 continues to make personal attacks. The last month and a half has seen an incredible wave of personal attacks, many against myself. Other more experienced editors advised me not to do anything since it would be a waste to time, so I sat back and observed the Skookum1's attacks continue unabated. Finally I started issuing warnings on his talk page (March 20th, March 21st, March 21st, and March 31st, in hopes of grabbing the attention of an administrator, but so far in vain. People have commented that Skookum1 makes valuable contributions; however, the other editors and I also make valuable contributions to Wikipedia for years now and have done so without violating basic Wikipedia Pillars.

For a sampling of personal attacks ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" also constitutes a personal attack):

  • Against myself: "she's NOT a good editor, she's behaving in a rogue manner, I'll take it up elsewhere, I guess I was just pointing out to you that somebody's sleeping dog didn't really want to stay lying down...." diff
  • Against myself: "You don't get how half-informed you are about the FOO people problem ... Your logic throughout all of this has been half-informed ... It's ironic to me that you, as someone on an indigenous high horse often enough, as with how you came at me over the Nevada categories, would in this case wind up pandering to the name-changes brought on by colonialist attitudes/chauvnism towards native nomenclatures..... diff
  • Against myself: "Well, if I didn't have to hear the same obstinate, half-informed ideas brought over time and again ... All the things she's bringing forward right now I told her about already, she dismissed them, told me what I thought didn't matter, and that she's entitled to her opinion. What she's really saying is she's determined to underscore her ignorance and has no intentions of learning about the subject matter she's screwing with" diff
  • Against myself: "you violently and bitterly resisted my attempt to make sense out of the Nevada categories ... start throwing apples and oranges around and pointing at other name problems to justify your rashness and obstinacy defending this bad choice of category name which you made without having a clue what you're talking about." diff
  • Against myself: "pretending yourself to be such an authority on it that youy think your "opinion" (=ignorance of the topic) matters, and that you have a "right" to impose it on others??" diff
  • Against myself (accusation w/o proof): "... considering her timing of this re other convos in IPNA and elsewhere, and her territorial WP:OWNership of Nevada tribe/reservation categories where she accused me of being a vandal for trying to make sense of that category structure to bring it in line with IPNA standards ... to me it seems like she jumped on top of it as a provocation or a "throw the skookum a bone" time-waster like Kwami likes to do.... Hard to do, to accept good faith, when someone who has accused you in no slight terms in the past in very pointed NPA terms (impugning I'm a white racist or supermacist, calling me a vandal for trying to fix glaring miscategorization problems) is so aggressively WRONG in terms of the suggestions and reasons she brings forward, no matter how often I explain the facts to her, she reiterates her lack of correct information as if it were valid and mine was only "opinion", and wrong in her actions of ignoring the CfD and acting on her own without recourse to proper process." diff

...these go on and on, and I can provide more diffs if need, but to move on to more recent attacks:

  • Against User:Maunus and myself: "He was at the time of most if not all, hence the overwrite power he had, which maunus and Uysvdi still have despite their contrarian and hostile and incivil behaviour." diff
  • Against User:Kwamikagami and myself: "Your attitude has been hostile and contrarian, and you yourself attacked me subtextually during that little game you played with the Shoshone categories, your position there also being against guidelines for category use and harmonizing names with category titles. Kwami's out of line, and this ain't the first time (his little game with the K'omoks title these last two days was way out of line, and geez I thought you of all people in the cabal, being indigenous yourself, would seed the point of respecting modern name-choices made by those peoples..... but as with Squamish, which you waded into without a clue about the implications, you apparently prefer to stick with teh colonialists' names for peoples you don't even know. EAt apples much? And this little NPA message of yours is horseshit, given your own behaviour towards me....... Kwami defends racist terms and regularly espouses anti-native attitudes, and yet there you were lecturing me about not being indigenously aware...... ACK what a waste of time the lot of you are; ramming through your NCL pet project, applying it helter skelter without any thought of consistency, or the long-standin convention about standalone names being dismissive about native endonyms, and about Canadian English. That you are an admin is a joke." diff and diff
  • Against User:Kwamikagami: "YOUR POV is what the problem is here, and accusing me of that is a farce. I'm the one that's being regularly attacked and criticized, and if I do so much as criticize a policy or point to someone's erroneous or ill-considered actions, I get an NPA warning from someone who's attacked me herself. Your problem Kwami is you can't admit you're wrong and that you have a complete disdain for the knowledge of the places and people and linguistic idiom (aka Canadian English usages) that's really obnoxious and you show it time and time again" diff
  • Against JorisvS: "If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the 'support' votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is NOT based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me ... Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds ... Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues ... it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, not the topic at hand, and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis." diff
  • Against JorisvS: "Please contain your prejudices ... The subtext of bigotry towards native peoples and their names in all such RMs is both tiresome and disturbing ..." diff
  • Against JorisvS: "You bleated that UNDAB and NCET haven't faced RfCs; I think it's high time that NCL got a once-over by more than your little crew of linguistics groupies." diff

If anyone wants more examples, I can furnish more.

Skookum1 has frequently accused me of attacking him, but when asked to find concrete proof, could not (User talk:Skookum1#March 2014). The conversation where he incorrectly believes I accused him of racism is located at User talk:Skookum1/Archive 18#Categories on redirects and User talk:Skookum1/Archive 19#December 2013. He accused me of calling his edits to Nevada tribes' categories as "vandalism"; however, I never did. The edit summaries of the edits in question can be found: here and here; they involved removing reservation cats from redirects.

Skookum1 has many conspiracy theories against me, which, frankly, I find disturbing. In truth, I try to avoid him as much as possible in my editing, this AN/I being a major exception. In real life, I work with numerous Native artists from British Columbia, but don't bother writing about them on Wikipedia in the attempt to avoid Skookum1.

This recent barrage of personal attacks has created a toxic environment that does not serve any of us well. Ignoring the problem hasn't helped, and issuing warnings on Skookum1's talk page hasn't achieved anything. These personal attacks need to stop. If there *is* a policy that allows a user to attack anyone they want without any recourse, I would like to hear it. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

  • Comment I've had many run-ins with Skookum, though I haven't always been polite either. If I disagree with him on a matter of procedure (for example, when Skookum dislikes the names of articles that follow our naming guidelines, I think it's best to discuss changing the guidelines, rather than making scores of move requests and arguing each of them independently as an exception to the guidelines), then he accuses me of racism, perversion, conspiracy, or other acts of bad faith. I've had good experiences with him too, where he's been reasonable and helpful, but only when (a) I agreed with him, or (b) I was seeking his advice and had no opinion of my own. Skookum has made valuable edits, but not IMO valuable enough to overlook his socially inappropriate behaviour. — kwami (talk) 22:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • My reasons for blocking are set out on my talk page rather than Skookum1's, User_talk:Fayenatic_london#Skookum1. I have tried to coach this editor, but have not succeeded. Although I chose not to take further enforcement action in his case, I have been warning him (see his talk page) that action is bound to come if he does not change his behaviour, but sadly this has not changed. – Fayenatic London 22:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • This ANI and the threats of it I view as part of an ongoing harassment of attack and obstructionism by Usyvdi on partisan and personal grounds and constitutes an abuse of power; Bushranger made me as a person the target of discussion in that CfD, rather than address the issues or even read my statements, despite support from other editors who were in agreement with me on that issue. Usyvdi has partisan motivations here and is abusing her power as an admin on behalf of that agenda, and has issued NPA warnings one-sidedly while ignoring those made against me by herself, Kwami, JorisV, Maunus and others, and also tolerating an obvious campaign of oppositionism in various RMs and other discussions. Her own condescensions and derisions toward me are a matter of record and constitute harassment on behalf a particular agenda and some kind of personal resentment that seem to have begun quite a while ago; this is all highly unCIVIL and AGF and her own NPAs against me put her assault on me in a highly hypocritical context. Others respect me, and actually are capable of reading my posts instead of complaining that don't have time or ability to read so-called "walls of text"; many patronizing comments by her and her colleagues at NCL are staple fare in various RMs, and her refusal to discuss her inconsistency on various matters pertaining to guidelines and other matters. This is a nuisance an ANI and I believe it is her conduct, not mine, that should be on the table and her adminship reviewed - and revoked.

She denies saying things to me which I know she said and must be hidden in page histories somewhere, which I will take the time to dig out because of this ANI; she has also deleted my attempt to broach an important issue where she is in conflict with her own actions, and added the extremely NPA edit comment "Get a life!". she has refused discussion and met important questions with silence. The one-sided nature of her conflated NPA accounts completely belies the ongoing derision and opposition and insults of herself and others who are defenders of the extremely flawed guideline WP:NCL.

This is all a waste of time and just more harassment, and I believe part of a joint campaign to drive me by that particular faction to drive me from Wikipedia or have me blocked so as to muzzle my critiques of their actions and faulty guidelines and questionable behaviour. It is completely one-sided and highly partisan in nature and highly immature overall; playing wiki-cop when she herself is no one to talk is, quite frankly, a bore. I have been doing useful work while putting up with harassment, evasion, derision and more; this ANI is just more procedural obstructionism and hostility towards my editing activities and is highly questionable in the extreme. This ANI should be about her, and her erstwhile allies against me, not about me. I have work to do and that life to lead that she told me to go get; Wikipedia is becoming more and more about procedure and protocol that honest work on articles and seems increasingly smaller and smaller pool full of narrower and narrower minds invested with more and more power....and pompous behaviour. Yes, I am voluble but I am articulate and respected by many editors despite all the derision and denunciation.

This ANI is a nuisance ANI and partisan harassment and IMO nothing more; conflations of critiques of actions and guidelines are being misportrayed as NPA when much more explicit and vicious personality attacks and sundry derisions go unaddresszed, and are a tiresome bore at countless RMs and also that CfD that Bushranger interloped on by attacking me for my writing style without addressing content and support votes; that CfD and its predecessor and t he RMs preceding it all need revisiting, perhaps mediation or Arbcom or wherever, and NCL needs an RfC to address its many inadequacies. The use of adminship on behalf of a partisan alliance hostile towards me is highly questionable and should be being reviewed by all the adminship, not just the claque of those who recite TLDR as it it were a guideline and not an excuse to not listen or address important issues and incorrect claims which cannot be put in terse form.

The presumptuous behaviour and comments towards me by her and other admins who presume to speak for "the community" or as "we", as JorisV has done and others allied to Uysvdi is also a matter of record, as are incantations of guidelines without reference to the wider context of the rest of guidelines; the use of "fanatic" is an apt discussion of the WP:DUCK behaviour of those concerned, and was conflated into NPA by hypersensitivity and an obvious laager mentality by those who maintain that NCL has primacy over all other guidelines. Yet despite even more virulent NPAs against me, I am the one being attacked and now officially harassed....I will post a link or two later to longer replies and comments about the decay in commonsense and civility at Wikipedia in recent times, including a reply to her on her pre-ANI warning to me last night, which I withheld for review until today.Skookum1 (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I am not an administrator. I ignored your personal attacks for weeks; however, they did not abate, so I gave giving you warnings for your personal attacks (which I would have no cause to do, if you would simply stop creating personal attacks). An AN/i is not a personal attack; having a different opinion is not a personal attack. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
    • how bizarre but also typical of you, in all your conflations of my points about issues and guidelines and ongoing conduct and often rank dishonesty into alleged NPA status. "having a different opinion is not a personal attack" is completely contrary to how you have been treating my "different opinions" (which are 90% of the time or more directly about citable facts, other precedents and various guidelines other than the one being tub-thumped repetitively and out of context; I present facts, you claim they are only opinion while continuing to defend ORIGINALRESEARCH in NCL and also in NCET, and you deride my presentation of this with open derision and uncivil commentary on a regular basis, though not as harshly as the many AGFs and NPAs from your NCL colleagues which you also turn a blind eye to.

I am glad you are not an admin; I have seen your overwrite redirects and other things which led me to believe that; your pompousness and back-handed attitude towards my attempts to discuss guidelines and such matters as the "FOO people" problem and category redirects has been noxious and insulting. Your ANI is as hypocritical as much of your other conduct and words; this is a waste of time and is just more obstructionism and and a way to keep from answering to issues and RMs and to seek official muzzling of me to keep me from critiquing the NCL agenda and your own inconsistent positions on many matters. I will find that lengthy derision you launched at me re the category redirects which you deny making, as it was competely an NPA, being insulting and also somewhat racist towards me as a non-indigenous person.Skookum1 (talk) 05:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a single monolithic group of editors. Over years now, I've dealt with the exact same situation, have been equally frustrated, but read and am familiar with the current iteration of both conventions, discuss the issues on the talk pages of those conventions, and don't resort to personal attacks. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Given there's established consensus to violate WP:NOR in the name of WP:MOS when it comes to article titles in certain other parts of the encyclopedia, that ship sailed long ago. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Me, too[edit]

In this diff today, Skookum1 attributes all kinds of unspecified bad intent to me and others. This is uncalled for. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, yet more conflation and distortion claiming to be NPA when really it is evasion of the gist of your opposition, which is obstructionist and not about guidelines or real-world usage, but only a defence of your claim that the title in question is ambiguous, which it is NOT and you ignore both guidelines and cites/stats produced by entrenching the belief that it IS ambiguous, despite being no different from Coquitlam, Nanaimo and other town items that share a name with now-archaic usages;WP:CSG#Places is very clear about such issues but you muddy the waters despite proof that the District of Saanich is the primary usage in the course of justifying ignoring guidelines that I am acting under the mandate of, and with consensus from other WPCANADA editors.Skookum1 (talk) 05:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Skookum1, forgive me for being extremely blunt here, but there's a saying that's relevant to your situation here. Extremely relevant, even. "When you're in a hole, stop digging." - The Bushranger One ping only 08:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Your repeated attacks on my writing style buried the very relevant points I raised and the support votes coming from informed and conscientious editors who understand what I'm talking about and don't hassle me for my writing style as if it were a crime; BHG's closure in making me the target of the negative and off-guideline closure are of the same kind as your own targeting of me in your Fayenatic's close of last year of the previous CfD. and rather than heed him, you ignored the Mightyquill's comments about focusing on what I have to say not on me, which is totally contrary to the way any discussion is supposed to be decided on; on guidelines and facts, not targeting the proponent as a reason to deny the very needed CfD to correct the very bad and vague resulting stasis at a very questionable title. Others see my points and agree; the closure of the Squamish town RM was similarly skewed by procedural bafflegab and the endless TLDR mantra by those who cannot manage to read extended argument or even the guidelines, and by a host of opposition votes from people voting against the proposal in well-established and persistent patterns of knee-jerk opposition to anything I do or say.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
      • As I mentioned there, I came into that discussion neutral; my opinon of your editing style and discussion style was fully shaped by nobody other than yourself. Perhaps you need to consider, just for a moment, that if people are "opposed to anything I do or say", then perhaps maybe, just maybe, the problem is not them, but you. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Wow I'm not sure if Skookum1 could have proved the OP's point any better. Might have been better to plead the Fifth, however, based on the above alone, I forsee a break in Skookum1's editing patterns in the near future ES&L 10:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
    • You mean the huge amount of valuable work I've been putting in despite endless harassment from a certain faction who want to see me gone because I'm in their way? Summary censure of a valuable contributor and very encyclopedically-conscious editor because of the insecurities towards my lengthy writingz and detailed commentary and wide-ranging interests and knowledge, or silencing my ability to respond to putdowns and insults accordingly? Is Wiki-bureacracy putting itself ahead of content so readily that someone who's created a huge mass of articles is so easily shut out by someone's attacks against me reaching such fever pitch and endless hypocritical accusations against me by those stonewalling and degrading me on a regular basis? Really? Is that what Wikipedia is about? The iron hand of so-called wikiquette and blatant hypocrisy about same, rather than honestly and fully addressing issues of content and TITLE??Skookum1 (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:No personal attacks provides the definition of "personal attacks," which includes, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence." -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Oh, so Kwami calling my bringing up guidelines that he doesn't like "ridiculous" and "idiotic" and more is fine and dandy huh? And there were claims about NPA about me that had to do with nothing more than showing how he (and others) were in violation of guidelines or had ignored consensus (just as you had done in re-creating Category:Squamish). I'm busy in real life; your own groundless accusations and many putdowns of me are many, I'll get to them yet.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
You have also successfully showcased why there is WP:DIVA (Specifically the part stating "... long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, long of course being subjective). Seriously just in the ANI responding to your behavior you have tossed out at least half a dozen dispersions. The requirements to edit also include being able to work in a colaborative environment; content isn't created in a vacuum. Creating a hostile editing environment is not the way to go. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Funny you should use that term "Diva" it applies very much to Uysvdi as links here later will show; but here's a good one where she reverts a needed change to NCET saying "no consensus", meaning that she and Kwami don't want it, even though it's come up over and over and over again in the RMs that the "NCL Pack" (I was reading WP:List of cabals last night have been so bitterly and repetitively opposing on spurious grounds; claiming that the NCL-advocated "FOO people" is "preferred" has been clearly shown to be in violation of TITLE, as is also the claim that it is "unambiguous".....those have to come out, along with the ORIGINALRESEARCH claim that such in a "language-people pair" both are primary topics so both' must be disambiguated; the consensus has taken place, just not in the little backyard where she and Kwami are stonewalling/ignoring the discussion of NCET that will never be a consensus, given her silence at questions she doesn 't want to answer, and Kwami's rank insults and negative commentary. "Subjective" is hardly what others familiar with my work would call it; guidelines, sources, informed local knowledge and more, are being met by everything from ad hominem attacks and snipes, irrelevant red herrings, mis-citations of guidelines or just not answering to the major guidelines; I'll compile links to these later; I'm busy in real life today, but between "DIVA" and "subjective" you have nailed on the head not me, but the activities thrown up and thrown at me in opposition by those railing against my attempts to put right what they have put wrong, including that little reversion of Uysvdi's at NCET, which she does not WP:OWN. Many others have pointed out those flaws in NCET, the consensus is there, and the flaws are so many in NCL that IMO it should be trashed and started over from scratch from objective reality, not the agenda of a club of linguists.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to AN/I, Skookum1, the little that I've learned is that, regardless of your contributions thus far, editors that are seen as disrupting the project are sanctioned. I've seen editors who were productive for years and years, then some straw breaks the camel's back, they go off, making accusations and can't be talked down off the ledge and they end up being blocked. Editors here are asking you to come down from the ledge. Enough of the conspiracy theories, claims of being ganged up are rarely met with empathy because these are never one-sided disputes.

Also, no one, I mean, no one, wants to read a wall of text. If you want people to read your argument, please be concise, direct and on topic.Liz Read! Talk! 18:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The editors who are disrupting the project are those who are persistently blocking changes mandated to titles by major guidelines; and Kwami's attempt to shut down RMs because he claims he wants a centralized discussion; one that he did not hold when he went across thousands of articles without discussion, applying a guideline that he wrote himself; among the casualties were important indigenous titles in my own part of the world, which it took five bitterly fought RMs and no end of personal abuse and baiting from, to correct. "Disruptive" like "subjective" and "diva" are way more apt for his behaviour and that of the other NCLers who persist in trying to block name changes with subjective arguments, specious commentary, and re-incantations of NCL with no discussion of anything else - except attackign Canadian English. Uysvdi has mostly stayed out of these RMs; the whole campaign of oppositionism has been noted and criticized by others.... I'm used to the ironies of being accused of what others are doing, but calling ME "disruptive" when all this is going on...well, that's what Kwami said about my launching of individual RMs on the titles he wantonly changed to suit himself after the bulk RMs I launched to address only 120 of them were closed. I have to get busy with my day; the track record of this campaign to bully and oppose me is very long, and I'm not the only one who has observed that there's one hell of a lot of knee-jerk opposition and relentless nitpicking going on to delay the needed reversions; I was going to file a multiple ANI on this group of editors (whicvh is not a conspiracy because it's public and also demonstrable fact) but Uysvdi beat me to it. I'm not the one being disruptive, I'm the one being victimized by those who are being disruptive.Skookum1 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Skookum, you're doing yourself no favours here. Walls of text + inflammatory language in response to concerns raised at AN/I are extremely unlikely to result in a situation that continues with your unimpeded ability to edit. Walk away from the computer, have a cup of tea or whatever you prefer, and practice some mindfulness before you continue to engage here. I urge you to do this for your own good, and for your ability to keep editing without problems. — Daniel 02:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Skookum1 exhibits some classic diva behavior, and his inevitable return from the last "throw my arms up in the air" wikibreak that lead me to this conclusion is reinforced - and problems continue. I do not understand the persecution complex, and I probably don't need to. Skookum1 needs to toe the line like we all have to. Doc talk 03:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The tacit message I've received from Wikipedia in the last month and a half is that Skookum1 gets to shower me with personal attacks, including accusations with no proof of my attacking him, and he will face absolutely no recourse—despite personal attacks bringing a major breach of the pillars of the institution. I've been plugging along since July 29, 2007, editing and creating new articles. But despite a solid track record of six and a half years of editing, apparently I just have to lump it and endure attacks such as the following?

  • "IMO you are a coward and a hypocrite... like a blind bull in a china shop. ... So go ahead, feel powerful, delete me from your little self-contained world; and throw me another taunt; you attacked and degraded me over your precious nevada categories, then waded into a BC category as if by deliberate malice. Knowingly provocative. I think you're happy with the mess you've created. Since I've pointed out that you're a hypocrite and acting from cowardice too, I might as well add that your behaviour is clearly passive-aggressive ... I also think you're a racist." diff
  • "impugning me as a racist and a white-guy-who-should-butt-out-of-native-topic areas, as Uysvidi has done" ... "Childish behaviour masked as righteous snottiness; I'm not the self-righteous one here, you are, and Uysvidi." diff.

There's all this discussion about how to attract and retain new editors, female editors, native editors, etc. Why would *anyone* want to work anonymously and for free just to endure treatment like this??? -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Uyvsdi, I'm not sure you've read the comments we've made towards Skookum if you honestly somehow read that we tacitly approve of their pathetic, childish, and inappropriate behaviour at all. The message that they should have got was this: "you're hanging by your last thread. Any further such comments will lead to a block" - that's the rather loud, clear, obvious message DP 00:20, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
WHOA ""you're hanging by your last thread. Any further such comments will lead to a block" - that's the rather loud, clear, obvious message" = if that's a statement against me or for me, I'm not sure, but given that the prevailing winds here are "shut up and let us pass judgment on you" I'm gathering it may be the former. "The condemned is not allowed to speak in his own defence".......very Kafka-esque. The "pathetic, childish and inappropriate behaviour" is in the nasty and/or wheedling comments and obstructionism I'm responding to in all cases. "Any further comments [from the accused] will lead to a block"?? So it's ok to vilify me, but not OK for me to put any of it in context? If so, then per my just-now comments in response to Uyvsdi's continued hounding of me below will see me blocked by the time I wake up (it's 1:51 am where I am) - and the discussion she's quoting from will go quiet and the issues and guidelines I have brought to the front burner will be left gather dust in archive-space. Upshot: nothing done except tossing out of Wikipedia a highly productive contributor with a great amount of knowledge and dedication, as many others have observed, despite my prolix manner, I've done one hell of a lot of work in many areas.
Why toss me out? Because I dared defend myself against unfair criticism, and dared to dispute guidelines that are flawed by pointing out how they are in violation of major guidelines? Is that how wikipedia works? I'm not the one trying to waste time by delaying or obstructing RMs, I'm trying to correct things that were recklessly done in the name of those inadequate guidelines (one in particular, whose advocates are the real problem here); it was Uysvdi's own actions at Category:Squamish et al who precipitated my taking things to proper procedure to get the matter properely addressed. Instead of y'all continuing to justify your intent to ban me here, why don't you actually have a look at the points raised in the RMs and in the NCET discussion and take part in it, instead of aiding a very partisan opponent in her campaign to prevent me from continuing to try and raise the issues of those guidelines. If you do vote to block me, you are being played ..... and the guidelines will go uncorrected and will continue to be abused by those who perpetuate their misapplication and inadequacies, and Kwami will go have a beer and a laugh.
Other editors have observed to me privately that ANI and the like are habituated by people who like to exert power, who like to say no, who like to pick people apart unfairly...... who relish their roles as jury, judge and executioner......prove me, and them, wrong.Skookum1 (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I was in part responding to a message on my talk page that nothing would happen and that I was wasting people's time. Here's posts from yesterday/today:
  • (directed at User:Kwamikagami): Edit summary: "pfft, you're hardly the one to talk about 'workign with other people'", talk: "why do you continue to pretend that any further discussion is needed when you have resisted, stonewalled, and derided any attempt to discuss anything and indulged in endless and repeated derisions and insults?" diff and "The further point, constantly rejected by "global English chauvinists..."
  • (also directed at User:Kwamikagami): "Your own attitudes towards native people in last year's RMs "we don't have to care waht they think" are both un-wikipedian and against guidelines. It's also worth noting that a lot of the native endonyms are plurals, in fact I'd be hard pressed to think of one that isn't. Your attempt to shut me out of a discussion you yourself invited me to is all too typical of your behaviour and bad attitude and is yet another AGF on your part. Will you ever address actual issues instead of wheedle and wiklawyer by habit of being obstructionist and endlessly seeking to defray discussion rather than actually listen to it???? It is you who are "disruptive" and it is you who deserve the nasty epithets you wielded at me, here and elsewhere." diff
  • (still directed at User:Kwamikagami): ""Or do you mean stop taking part in pointing out issues and precedents you persistently ignore by attacking and sniping at me?? Points, since I know you have difficulty, like so many here, with reading blocks of sustained argument and topic points..." and "Let me bold the critical phrase for you, since you have comprehension problems it seems..." and " I'm talking straightforward references to guidelines, you are making accusations and distortions and now "shut up and go away" subtexts "will you stop now?" Why don't YOU stop refusing to recognize widespread consensus that is based on, as CBW has observed more than once, guidelines that you just want to ignore or nitpick by whatever means; when confronted by them you attack me...." and " "Why don't you stop now?" indeed. YOU are the stonewaller - and "white man speak with forked tongue" also." diff.
The last line, wth??! We're in the 21st century. -Uyvsdi (talk) 13:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
You really don't have any sense of irony at all do you??? That comment was because Kwami is, as always, twisting what people say to claim it means something else- something you have done to me yourself re the "people" issue I raised in a guideline and you came back as if I were talking about TWODABS, which it was clear I was not. I'm a white man, and I don't engage in such dishonest behaviour as we so persistently see from Kwami, who you are bizarrely defending here as though he were a victim and not a persistently disruptive and obstructionist quibbler (there's other words I can use, but...). Why don't you address the guidelines and consensus points I raised there instead of coming here and giving my responses to Kwami instead of also the b.s. he was dishing out so as to avoid discussing those same guidelines and issues that you won't condescend to admit to, though dozens of RMs, as Cuchulainn has observed and I quoted there, have already spoken loud and clear. You don't want a discussion, and you don't want a "consensus" with someone about guidelines and precedent-setting RMs, you want to silence that discussion by blocking the person who brought all those guidelines and issues up and has had success in getting others to listen, though you won't even answer me, but you do want to talk ABOUT me, out of context, so as to have me banned. So those discussions will go nowhere, and you can claim that "consensus" is on your side. To achieve that consensus you have come here to enlist a firing squad......Skookum1 (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
You say you're avoiding me, but you're obviously still bent on hounding me, and continue to be "just fine" with Kwami's ongoing snipes and tendentiousness at that guideline "discussion" where CBW and I are trying to talk about guideline issues and changes that need addressing in the wake of, as observed by Cuchulian, "consensus has spoken" across a whole slew of RMs mandating that changes that I tried to make and you claimed "no consensus" when reverting........your silence on questions concerning the terms "preferred" and "unambiguous" speaks to your lack of unwillingness to enter discussions about actual guidelines that you and those who concocted NCL and now seek to stonewall NCET from the changes mandated across dozens of RMs...my retorts to Kwami are all correct, and your unwillingness to address his ongoing taunts and the insults he copy-pasted across those RMs is proof to me of your one-sidedness and your intent to continue to harangue about me while it's me who's bringing forward the issues that the consensus you say does not exist has clearly already mandated.
Your hypocrisy on the "FOO people" issue in re-creating Category:Squamish against consensus on a category title you knew very well, if you had indeed read the CfDs as you claim to have, was contentious and controversial in the extreme, and happened only a few weeks after Montanabw suggested we stay out of each other's way, me out of Nevada and the Southwest, you out of areas you know I'm active in i.e. BC native categories, the system for which I am, yes, one of the principal architects. You waded into a controversy on a subject/title that you know very little about and on the basis that "FOO people" was ambiguous - your word precisely, and ratehr than address that you rudely deleted my attempt to raise it with you, just as you had refused to listen to reasons why Category:Skwxwu7mesh was valid per TITLE/CONSISTENCY/PRECISION and yes, it is very ironic that you would seek to retrench a "colonialist" name instead of going with CONSISTENCY to return it to the native form that was created by an indigenous artist and activist of some note.
That you also unhatched a PRIMARYTOPIC dispute over the town/district of Squamish is not incidental; precedents on "town-people" pairs continue to be resolved in favour of the town; you waded into somewhere you had no knowledge of, and refused when I did try to broach it with you, as recreator of the "new" (previously deleted by consensus) category
Using me as an excuse to not create native artist bios is, quite frankly, pathetic. Create them, I rarely work on artist bios of any kind......no doubt you will point to this as another so-called "personal attack" when you tolerate Kwami's direct insults and stonewalling right and left is just proof to me of your partisanism and not giving the full context of why I was responding as I did to Kwami - and JorisV, who also has been extremely tendetious and oppositional and also refusing to address guidelines.
CBW is right, I'm passionate about what I believe is best for wikipedia and that I'm very frustrated with the stonewalling and derision coming from the NCL camp and speak my mind about the obstinacy and pissy - tendentious - responses I get, which often contain overt or soft-pedalled personal attacks and condescensions of all kind. Kwami has tried to shut down the discussions that, with some exceptions due to PRIMARYTOPIC reasons, now have established consensus, as observed by Cuchulainn, for the amendments to NCET and NCL that you refuse to address (through your silence) and which Kwami is turning, time and again, to attacks on me, including twisting what Cuchalainn had said to pretend it agreed with him which it did not in the course of, once again, to stonewall addressing the issues that not just me, but CBW, has raised.
There is much more background behind Usyvdi's selections against me above, including the recent ones from NCET (where she does not post the material I was responding to), that point to an overall pattern of obstinate and hostile BAITing that is very much along the lines of Kwami's failed attempts to block last year's RMs. Among these were my attempts to raise the issue of indigenous endonyms at IPNA, only to be pushed aside with "we've got more important things to do" without even telling me about NCET or, if that was before NCET came into existence, the relevant section at NCP it was transferred from or the discussions going on about it on the NCP talkpage.
No doubt my 'failure' to shut up as instructed above is going to be yet another stroke held against me; but if I can't defend myself against a one-sided witchhunt when others who do much worse, and persistently continue to obstruct and oppose and also insult and deride me......ack.... if that's the case, then Wikipedia consensus is more of a kangaroo court than rational discussion, and issues are being ignored while the bearer of the person who is bringing them forward, wanting them addressed when they have not been, and you refuse yourself to deal with them (Uyvsdi) never mind condescend to discuss them;
I have produced view stats, googlesearches, guideline citations, and been responded to with silence/inaction on your part and continued WP:BAITing me by Kwami, and now seeing you cherrypick my responses to him as more evidence of why you want me banned from Wikipedia, raises again my original point that this is a highly partisan and one-sided ANI and is really harassment, and nothing else. Well, it's not nothing else if you do succeed in having me thrown out like Kauffner has been....interestingly it was his tendentiousness that created the Squamish imbroglion in the first place, what with his very hasty speedy CfD and TfD to "Squamish" right after the initial RM there were ill-informed claims were made to justify changing a title that had stood for six years
as with other native endonym RMs/ closures and guidelines raised in them have demonstrated, "Skwxwu7mesh" did address all of the bits of TITLE that NCET and NCL, which you refuse to allow proper reforms to - reverting saying "no consensus" but refusing to discuss anything towards that consensus discussions where, other than having to respond to Kwami's ongiong nastinenss, I'm being very "rational" and specific about guidelines and precedents.
If my need to voice my defenses here, or against Kwami and his wikilawyering and tendentiousness at NCET and elsewhere, is used as a reason to call me a "diva" and throw TLDR at me as if it were a criminal offence, with capital punishment awaiting me if I dare to speak again, or to respond to you, then it underscores my point that wikiquette, and not content, is the primary governing module of the Wikipedia "backroom".....making an editor the issue instead of the content is boilerplate for discussion pages.
The Squamish issue that you waded into either without knowing what you were doing, or as deliberate BAITing is not dead; it will come back if not by me by others; it was in fact, your observation in doing what you did there that prompted me to address address moving via RM back all the NCL-instigated "people" additions on indigenous articles, and also those RMs for Canadian unique placenames-take-no-dabs per WP:CSG#Places that led to the growth of WP:CANLIST considerably this last two weeks, including the Squamish-parallels Lillooet, Chemainus, Sechelt and Tsawwassen, among others (Comox looks at this point as though it will close in favour of the town), and where PRIMARYTOPIC has not been shown to be the people, who themselves self-identify differently from the towns and regions which are the modern primary topic of those names.
Squamish is no different, the problem there is that any attempt to talk reason there is drowned out by ongoing attacks against me....including from those other people whose personal attacks you show no interest in replicating, only singling out my responses in the course of your attempt to get me banned from Wikipedia. So that, it seems, silence will fall on discussions to reform NCET and NCL and that you and Kwami can claim that "consensus" means that those guidelines will stay the way they are.
If your intent here was simply to provoke me to more necessarily longish responses to your one-sided complaints against me, you have won. If defending myself against ongoing obstructionism and insults means that my voice has gotten sharp, it is a measure of frustration with the lack of comprehension or respect that this is all about. I know my subject material very well (which you do not, as you displayed re Squamish), and because of all the RMs required to fix what you will not, I'm getting to know guidelines pretty damned well too. Disruptive behaviour and tendentious, obstructionist conduct in discussions by your cohorts go unaddressed and uncommented upon by you, yet you make a point of continuing to defend them as if they were victims and do nothing about them and single my responses to them out. Your attempt to turn a point of mine into something else re "people" vs TWODABS somewhere seems typical; you didn't even apologize for that; changing the meaning of what someone has said I've seen lots of before, it may have been a lack of comprehension of what I had said, but given the overall pattern of picayune wikilawyering and ostructionism I am seeing and continue to see', it's me that's being victimized here, as elsewhere.
I'm trying to improve Wikipedia by correcting out-of-date titles and addressing guideline issues that, frankly, the "old consensus" at IPNA did long ago until it was ignored by some who knew better; you only got here in 2009, long after Luigizanasi and Phaedriel and the others who established the conventions re titles and category names retired or went inactive. And now rather than fess up to the realities of those guidelines, you refuse to discuss them and are trying to silence their main proponent, who has been getting NCL-instigated titles corrected right and left. It is you who are not willing to properly discuss issues, not me. Instead of discuss these issues, you continue in your campaign to have me blocked and continue to be one-sided about what I say in response to ongoing obstructionism and attacking me instead of discussing the issues I raise, without ever addressing what it was that got said that I was responding to. That is tendentious, clearly hostile, and disruptive in the extreme; rather than talk to me and try to seek ground, you continue to talk about me, relentlessly, and continue to remain silent on the atrocious behaviour of Kwami and the more soft-pedalled but persistent derision from JorisV and others; it appears not only white men speak with forked tongue. Oh, is that a personal attack? I don't think it is, I think it's totally fair given your one-sidedness in this matter, your hypocrisy on "FOO people" re Squamish and re "preferred" and "unambiguous" at NCET, and the way you are indulging in your right to speak here, knowing that the TLDR mindset already heard here means that if I do speak to defend myself, that will damn me further. In other words, and per my "kangaroo court" comment above, the accused does not have a right to speak, and anything they have done will be held against them........conflated out of all context and irrelevant to the content issues those comments came from.
I've done a mammoth amount of work here, despite the campaign to systematically obstruct and, it seems, BAIT me, and during the course of this ANI, which I've been trying to ignore as t he partisan witchhunt I still maintain it to be. That you are spending more time attacking me here than actually addressing the consensus that has emerged (due to my assiduousness in pursuing these issues, item by item, guideline by guidline) speaks worlds about the contrast between "wiki-idealists" like myself and "wiki-bureaucrats" that I have seen comments on in various places.
I've tried to talk common sense and guidelines and facts and been treated with derision and insults, and by yourself the back of the hand when I try to raise issues with you; long before the NV categories thing it seems, you've had it in for me......and now, seeing my success in putting NCL on the hotseat where it belongs, overturning its false premises in RM after RM after RM, this ANI was launched against me, while you continue to refuse to discuss issues or guidelines, and Kwami continues to insult and wheedle endlessly and tries to turn my words against me, per his usual inimitable....and you take notes and come running here to report back my responses to him. I'm the one talking guidelines and better content; all you are trying to do is muzzle me so those guideline and content issues will remain unadressed....and maybe so you can go start writing those BC native-artist articles you blame me for you not starting bios on. Hmpf. Skookum1 (talk) 18:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I must say, in Skookum's defense, that he does make a large number of valuable edits, and WP is on the whole better off for his presence. But it's no longer possible to have an intelligent, or civil, conversation with him: Any disagreement is proof of "perversion". There's one article (Comox people) where the last time he was on the talk page he had agreed with me, that we should use the assimilated English spelling Comox, but now he's changed his mind, and thinks that we should use the "native" spelling, K'omoks (though this isn't the native Comox name, but the name one of their neighbors uses for them!). Since he's changed his mind, without so much as a mention of that fact on the talk page, all the people he used to agree with are now racist, recalcitrant, obstructionist, etc., as if somehow all our opinions should stay in sync, without any discussion, even when we change them, and any divergence of opinion is willful disruption. You can't reason with an attitude like that. — kwami (talk) 18:51, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

    • Apparently you can't reason with someone who just doesn't know about the topic at hand, as you have just demonstrated, and who cherry picks former opinions, now changed because unlike you I actually go do some research on the topics rather than just guideline-toss without knowing anything like you do.....
    • 1) if you knew about this people and their current state, their name is adopted, as is their modern language, which is Lik'wala, the language of the Laich-kwil-tach or Lekwiltok; Island Comox as a language is dead, and these people have adopted the language of their neighbours, and the name given to them in that language; I used to think the name was a derivation of the Chinook Jargon word for dog kamuks, referring to the dog breed once raised for wool in Contact and pre-Contact times (now extinct)
    • 3) but it turns out that the name is in fact Lik'wala ("Southern Kwakiutl") and not of "Comox" origin at all (their original name in their now-dead language was Sahtloot). Which is why it is unsuitable and incorrect for the Sliammon/Tla A'min, Homalco and Klahoose (the "Mainland Comox"), who obviously have not adopted Lik'wala unlike their Island counteparts.
    • 4) K'omoks IS the native name used by this people, who explain this all on their webpage, which by your comments it appears you disdain to have read. I'm the one with local, modern expertise and aware of the complexities of the native cultural/political revival, you are the one relying on "facts" and terminologies from old books.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Some sanction needed. AFAICR, I first encountered Skookum1 when I was trying to help clear the CFD backlog, and spotted a CFD which had been open for weeks. When I looked at the page, it was obvious why it was open: the extraordinary verbosity of the nominator Skookum1 had produced a discussion which no sane admin would even try to read, unless they had a masochistic desire for a prolonged headache.
    My closure (as consensus to keep, on account of the nom having tried to bludgeon everyone else out of the debate) was challenged on my talk by Skookum1, who was again verbose and rambling. I responded that I had nothing to add to the close, but that deletion review was open; and then I closed the discussion. Skookum1 stil posted again anyway, and I promptly reverted that post.
    What we see in this discussion is more of the same extraordinary verbosity, blaming everybody else for the conflicts which surround Skookum1's editing. I agree with User:The Bushranger's comment that Skookum1 appears to be out to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Whatever the merits of his case, his style of communication prevents consensus formation. It's not just the number of words, but the failure to structure them with sub-heads or bullet points, and the rambling mixtures of substantive points with complaints about other editors.
    Unless Skookum1 radically changes his approach, I don't see how can work collaboratively. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:25, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
    • BHG, this last few days I've been making a point of bulleting comments or at least separating them into paragraphs as on last night's responses here; I did so also on the Squamish CfD re TITLE's and NCET's various points relating to that discussion and still got hammered and BLUDGEONed for the "walls of text" complaint.
      • 1) I have bulleted on RMs this last week, and also on the NCET guideline discussion; where instead of addressing those points, Kwami turned Cuchulains closing comment on Talk:Lillooet#Requested move on its head, claiming it agrees with him which it does not, and continuing to resist discussion by slagging me instead; distorting and misrpresenting things I've said just as he has done again immediately above.Skookum1 (talk)
      • 2) Your own bad call on the Squamish issue I will make no direct comment on here; the PRIMARYTOPIC research has been done on that title and will be addressed again in the light of a couple of dozen related and now closed/moved RMs, where I was not made the target of the decision, and what I had to say listened to, and the irrelevancy of the "oppose" votes refuted by other participants. Skookum1 (talk)
      • 3) IMO people who don't know about a subject area who wish to dispute PRIMARYTOPICs on things and places they have no real acquaintance with should neither comment/vote nor close unless they are prepared to learn about the topic and address the issues raised. The "I don't have time to read that" cant that I'm hearing is a sorry excuse for proper discussion of encylopedia contents....I have local expertise as many have observed; this is regularly derided or, as too often the case, passed over without being read by people who, if pressed for time or a lack of effort to learn about the subject, should not be voting or closing. The mess this has created I spent a lot of time and energy trying to correct, and with a few holdouts the consensus emerging underscores all I've been saying in each and every RM and CfD.....Skookum1 (talk)
      • 4) I've changed my style of posting, but am still being BAITed into the necessary responses against ongoing deflection and the very evident campaign to exclude me from Wikipedia altogether, as per example of Uysvdi's quoting of me last night without including the pejorative and misleading/distorted comments I was responding to. Despite Kwami's disclaimer above that he doesn't want to see me banned from Wikipedia I have good reason to doubt that as being any more honest than his persistent dishonesty and misrepresantations for a very long time now; He hasn't changed his ways, in fact he's being even more reactionary and hostile than ever, and Usyvdi continues to look for things I've said while ignoring the things said that prompted them....one-sidedness on display in extremis.....and I've just wasted another hour of my life on people who are trying to railroad me.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Some sanction needed Skookum does make some positive contributions but these sorts of comments are entirely unacceptable [2]. Neither can I say I found accusations against me of wikilawyering terrible positive[3][4]. If Skookum can turn down the snarkiness of his comments, and maybe make his comments more brief, than I believe he would be a positive contributor. However, the negativeness of his comments is currently obstructive.--Labattblueboy (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Your obstructive behaviour on various RMs, including ones now closed against your opinion, comes off as snarky itself.....and yes, you are wikilawyering, that's not an accusation that's by the definitions given on WP:Wikilawyering, using guidelines out of context and not in the spirit in which they were written. The FIFTHPILLAR "there are no rules" is violated every time someone tries to turn a single guideline point into "policy" and use it as an iron-fast rule to obstruct a needed and rightful change/reversion as you persistently are doing there, and have done in other RMs as well.Skookum1 (talk)
    • the guidelines that allowed Sta7mes in the first place, which you are so hotly resisting return to the original title (as called for by guidelines when there is an intractable dispute) which were consensus-driven by many editors of that time, including that page's/title's author, you persist in denying, calling Canadian dab standards "irrelevant" and continuing to tub-thump on the use of /7/ in that title; which is specious and you still do not continue to address the other primary example of a non-English character in a title in teh same region, in fact just down the road - the colon in Sto:lo. I'm the one talking guidelines as a whole, you're the one zeroing in on only one aspect of the title and IMO misinterpreting and abusing that guideline despite the ambibuities and dab problem of the current title.Skookum1 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

New personal attacks on Jimbo's page[edit]

Skookum1 is now posting even more inappropriate remarks on Jimbo's page. [5][6] —Neotarf (talk) 11:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, we have precedent, with Giano. Except that Giano's content is better and his commentary less obnoxious. Guy (Help!) 17:34, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know Giano and I don't know Skookum, but Giano has never gone out of his way to WP:BITE me. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Site ban proposal for User:Skookum1[edit]

This discussion has now gone on for more than 8 days and 10,000 words. Skookum1 doesn't seem to be able to participate without massive disruptions across multiple forums. Blocks have been tried and they didn't work. The attacks continue, even as the spotlight is trained on him and even more editors continue to express their concerns. Skookum1 can't stop. I propose a site ban. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. —Neotarf (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose a site ban. When personal attacks are pointed out and the individual decides to ignore the problem and cast further aspersions there is no way to work with it. I believe they will be a continuing disruption and further time sink if nothing is done. I do believe an indef block should be applied. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure how an indef block compares to a site ban. Can one of you say why one makes more sense than the other? In the mean time, Skookum1 keeps up the denial and attacks here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
And you continue your disruptive and tendentious opposition there and elsewhere, on topics you really know nothing about. The denials are from people such as yourself who ignore guideline citations, e.g. you calling me "tilting at guidelines" when it's a guideline you asked for, and now seek to evade addressing. This is all too typical with what's going on, including the fielding of two-word alleged PRIMARTOPICS as if valid, when the are not. That others support my proposals and also cite guidelines (that you and others ignore or seek to bypass/talk around) and also are capable of reading my writing without treating it as a criminal offence, is also well-established as fact; that RMs have been opposed by certain individuals without any basis in guidelines or actual reality apparently because it was me who proposed them hasn't stopped 95% of them from being decided in "my" favour. The accusational and adversarial environment caused by such knee-jerk opposition is the real problem herr, not me.Skookum1 (talk) 05:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
My comments have been about the requested moves, not about you; the words you quote are not mine; I have not proposed any primarytopics. Face reality, please. Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
If you had no PRIMARYTOPICs to propose, then why were you claiming the obvious (to a Canadian, and others who actually read googlestats and view stats) PRIMARYTOPIC was not viable? Why are you obstructing those RMs? So that "no consensus/not moved" would be the result?Skookum1 (talk) 05:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Responsive to Dicklyon's question, see Wikipedia:Banning policy#Difference between bans and blocks. A user who is banned is not technically prevented from editing (but any edits can be deleted on sight). A user who is banned and continues to edit anyway generally ends up indef blocked. These typically go hand in hand. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Also if the user stops commenting on contributers instead of the material the indef is easily removed. The editor is constructive for the most part, just not cordial. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
If those contributors have done "bad things" in the course of misapproprating titles as they have been doing, it's perfectly valid to criticize them and call them on their actions, and also on their obstructiveness/disruptiveness. I'm the one whose personality is under attack here, on the basis of (alleged) personality alone. Your comment is just more one-sided tub-thumping.Skookum1 (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • @Neotarf's proposal "The attacks continue, even as the spotlight is trained on him and even more editors continue to express their concerns." And the evasions of guidelines and attempts to block RMs continue, the disruptive behaviour is coming from the mob of oppositioinists who opposed just to oppose, without substance. And more and more editors also voice to me their support in the face of the atmosphere of witchhunt that is going down and the ongoing and persistently disruptive campaign against needed and valid RMs is the real "time sink" that this has taken. Harassing me officially in order to stop me from posting such RMs is the real agenda here.Skookum1 (talk) 05:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There are certainly issues with Skookum1's inability to avoid major drama when dealing with those he disagrees with, but leaping to a site ban from no current block whatsoever is the "cart before the horse". He can be blocked if he cannot drop the diva persecution stance, but no site ban is needed at this time. Blaming everyone else for your conflicts is all well and good, but hardly realistic. Doc talk 05:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Doc9871. During the past 2.5 years, he appears to have been blocked only once, and that was for only 48 hours.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    There's also a disturbing loophole in WP:3RRNO when it comes to even thinking about banning someone with as many prolific positive contributions as this user. It says under #3: "Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users." The first part of the instruction surely seems to indicate that any user who has subsequently become banned can have all of their edits reverted by anyone at anytime, regardless of whether those edits were good or not. That's around 82,000 edits since 2005 that would suddenly be eligible for deletion were he to be community banned, 60% of them in article space. Community bans are for the worst of the worst. The extreme measure of a community ban should be carefully considered. Doc talk 09:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - I would generally oppose a ban proposal that is put forward by one side of the dispute. Banning someone for verbosity is entirely inappropriate. Getting Skookum off their pedestal is one thing, but unleashing a wrecking ball to knock him off is overkill. Blackmane (talk) 16:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
This AN/I was initiated due to nonstop personal attacks (all well documented above), which have continued throughout the process despite repeated warnings from a range of individuals, not verbosity. There has to be a compromise between doing nothing (current situation) and a site ban. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Your conflations of criticisms of actions and words in violation of guidelines as alleged "NPA" has been biased all along; you always don't include the personal attacks and obstructionism I encountered in each case; said personal attacks being something you very evidently tolerate on a very partisan basis; and my comments in return were well-deserved, including your very rude "Get a life!" edit comment when deleting my attempt to broach you double standard on the "FOO people" issue, i.e. your aggressive and untoward re-creation of the Category:Squamish and your attempt to coopt the main category Category:Squamish people to conform to your point that "FOO people" is for "people who are FOO".
I continue to work on articles and also on the RMs of the same kind I have been regularly opposed, whether by Kwami or others, with Kwami tossing out regular NPAs and somewhere Maunus stating the very AGF "we can't take Skookum1's word for it", even though it was concerning a topic area in which I am one of the main contributors and wiki-experts. You want "compromise"? Why don't you back off and stop with the DEADHORSE routine? You continue to rant against me, and look for contributions/discussion comments you can come running back with here to rail at me yet again. I have supporters on Jimbo's talkpage, about the "he has no right to speak here" cant that is a feature of this ANI, and also other support in the face of "the trolls" has also been voiced, and "Wikipedia needs you", also;
My rights to criticize the unfairness of this process, and your own hypocrisy and partisanship, and the "lynch mob" mentality seen in the relentless personal criticism here, when I've been arguing guidelines and consensus which you yourself refuse to discuss. Banning me is an extreme measure; the compromise is to WP:DISENGAGE which I have been trying to do, other than replying here to yet-another-conflation and one-sided cherrypicking and talking of my UserContributions..........I'm the one trying to be CIVIL and being met by hostility over and over and over again (including copy-pastes of derisive comments in the course of "oppose" votes)
Suppressing free speech? Is that what you are wanting to do? That I can't speak my mind in face of overt hostility and one-sided and out-of-context links to my responses to ongoing NPA and AGF, including from you, seems to be what you want; that I should humble myself and tone down my discussion of guidelines that have been violated, and actions taken to disrupt their proper implementation (including NPA and AGF comments in the RMs, right and left)..... that any criticism of bad actions, and dishonest ones as was sometimes the case, is automatically branded "NPA" without any action taken in regard to the NPAs made against ME - and what you want is to censor me, to shut me up?? To stop me from fielding RMs and trying to discuss guidelines that are much in need of review; I'm not the one who is being "disruptive" and "tendentious" by comparison, not by a long shot.
"Some action must be taken" could start with your own acknowledgement of the highly productive results of the RMs I have filed, and incorporating them into your wiki-view or "right action". I have been harassed by the people my responses above you have cited, and persistently by yourself, here and elsewhere. There is no reason to ban me, I'm out in the trenches doing constructive work despite the "time sink" of endless procedures which have been dragged out needlessly based on spurious and unsubtantiated and anti-guideline PRIMARYTOPIC disputes, and defending myself here. You have resisted working with me, insulted me in the course of that resistance, and now are positing my responses to people who have regularly insulted and badgered/obstructed me as if I were the only guilty party. It's not me who's the DIVA here, in my estimation. Skookum1 (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding "we can't take Skookum1's word for it" — no one takes anyone's word for anything here. Cited sources are necessary for articles, and diffs are required here. I've furnished over a dozen diffs of your personal attacks, and others, including yourself, have provided more examples. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:33, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
I can't remember just now where Maunus said that, but it was on a BC topic or BC indigenous topic of some kind....that is a direct AGF statement, and totally out of line since I've been here since 2005 and my known expertise in topics in my region is well established (as others will attest, and my editing record will demonstrate amply). That may have been in reference to the "old consensus", which if not for this ongoing harassment I would have drafted up by now on the IPNA talkpage or a sandbox thereof, and in which I took part, including in the establishment of indigenous categories in BC and elsewhere, and in title-format discussions; why would I have reason to make such a thing up? You are being every bit as AGF as that comment; why should you be believed? It's time for you to WP:DISENGAGE, Uyvsdi, and go start those native-artist biographies you blame me for you not starting; more AGF.Skookum1 (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Uyvsdi, going between one extreme to another is not beneficial. It is generally acknowledged that Skookum1 does good work but does have issues in a few areas. Drawing a line in the sand benefits nobody. Seriously, Skookum1, please dial back on the verbosity of your posts. Personally, I make a point of reading as much, if not everything, of what an editor writes as I can, but even that tendency gets exhausted eventually. Blackmane (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I've had firsthand experience with Skookum1's combative editing and sense of ownership over some topics. While it is disheartening to see that he hasn't change much in 3+ years, a site ban is way too drastic of a measure for a editor who does make (overall) worthwhile contributions to the project. Does Skookum1 need to dial it back some and, perhaps, accept some mentoring and help towards dealing with editors of differing viewpoints in a more diplomatic fashion? Of course. But lets try to go the rehabilitation route more earnestly before unleashing the ban hammer. AgneCheese/Wine 18:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I oppose site bans outside of arbitration in principle. Surely there must be other ways to resolve the situation. It's not like we have an abundance of otherwise productive editors to start banning them because no one seems to be able/willing to resolve one or a couple of individual disputes.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); April 9, 2014; 18:23 (UTC)
    • In the Okanagan Valley wine region case, there was a POV/COI SPA editor (oh was that you, Agne?) who was trying to rewrite North American geography so that wine region bumpf about itself would seem correct (claiming that the Sonoran Desert reached the Okanagan Valley rather than stopping at the Colorado River like it does in the real world. I've had way too much experiences with SPAs, be they a Sinixt activist who was edit-warring to remove all mention of the Ktunaxa on topics re their disputed/shared territory, political hacks seeking to have me thrown out for getting in the way of their POV/SOAP actions on political bios, or Haida supporters attempting to "OWN" Haida content; in the case of the Okanagan Valley it was not me trying to OWN BC Geography, but insisting it be described correctly, not using wine-industry press releases in travel magazines (as Agne did) as if there were valid RS on geography. Skookum1 (talk) 01:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
sigh I have no interest in rehashing 3 yr old disputes (especially with an editor who seems to not know what WP:POV, WP:COI or WP:SPA means). I still oppose a site ban for Skookum1 but I would hope (perhaps naively) that the chorus of editors who have raised red flags about his behaviors would give him reason to pause and reassess his behavior. AgneCheese/Wine 01:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
There's also a chorus of editors who support me and find the TLDR ranting and one-sided persecution of alleged/conflated NPAs in the context of the NPAs and AGF behaviour towards me abhorrent; and per your attempts to rewrite BC geography according to wine industry bumpf, and your claims on that debate that you were not COI, amounted to WP:DUCK and were very, very POV vs what is actually in geography texts; Osoyoos' spurious claim to be the "northern tip of the Sonoran Desert" was hogwash, but you warred over this extensively.Skookum1 (talk) 02:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The fact that he writes a lot in discussions and others find it hard to read is not a good reason to site ban anybody. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Again, just a reminder, this AN/I has nothing to do with verbosity and was initiated due to nonstop personal attacks. -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Well, gee, then why was TLDR and "walls of text" brought up so much? the "nonstop personal attacks" were coming from your friends who you portray as victims here; I am only responding to them, and as CambridgeBayWeather has pointed out, mounting frustration at the obtuse and oppositional "arguments" thrown to try to block RMs is where my responses are coming from. "Nonstop personal attacks" - there is a difference between calling someone "idiotic", "ridiculous" and "no one would accuse you of being rational" (all Kwami, here portrayed as victim) and criticizing someone's ideas, behaviour and their failure to address guidelines. Skookum1 (talk) 01:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Ridiculous proposal. Straight out of Lord of the Flies. Absolutely nothing wrong with this productive editor, other than the objections of some to his verbosity, which last I knew was not a lynchable offense... Carrite (talk) 04:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is far too harsh a sanction at this point in time, but I hope Skookum can take this criticism to heart and get serious about commenting on content (and arguments) rather than contributors. --BDD (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Too much like a witch hunt. Saffron Blaze (talk) 19:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

One Week Escalating Block Proposal, Not a Cool Down Block[edit]

  • Support. I am proposing this as I believe in escalating blocks and a little time a way may do some good. The amount of time based on inputs can of course be modified. Tivanir2 (talk) 20:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    • As a side note I didn't make the comment at any time that this was a cooldown block. I figured due to block history and peoples opinions at the above site ban commentary that escalating blocks would be the most widely accepted option. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Judging by what I am seeing here, User:Skookum1 has indeed made constructive contributions to the encyclopedia. However, as of recently something may have happened - he is reportedly becoming more hostile to other editors, launching personal attacks like fireworks in the sky. A lot of things can happen to one's personality - a concussion, mental illness, disease, surgery, stress, etc. Normally I am opposed to cool-down blocks as they usually have the opposite effect, but it seems like we have no other option. --k6ka (talk | contribs) 01:00, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • re "reportedly", I found this quote from Mark Twain today which is very, very apt - this is politics after all:
      • <wikiquote>"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue, but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."</wikiquote>
  • We don't do punitive or "cool-down" blocks here, nor do we arbitrarily pick a block length out of a hat to appease those who really want him site banned. If he levies a personal attack that any admin (and many are watching, obviously) sees justification for a block, he or she will apply one. Doc talk 01:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Man, do you people ever turn things on their head,and seem to not own any mirrors to take a look at yourselves with; NPAs and AGF behaviour and obstructive (=tendential, disruptive) actions against/towards me is what prompted my responses that you are now saying are "like fireworks in teh sky". And this an outright personality attack - "A lot of things can happen to one's personality - a concussion, mental illness, disease, surgery, stress, etc." Supposition and imputation and very very very AGF. That comment is out of order and constitutes extreme AGF and NPA. Skookum1 (talk) 01:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • That comment is out of order and constitutes extreme AGF and NPA. I'm the one fielding legitimate RMs and being treated with AGF and NPA in return...now especially here.Skookum1 (talk)
  • Comment re one-week block A "one week block" or "escalating blocks" is punishing me on behalf of those inflicting NPA and AGF at ME. And your word "reportedly" in "reportedly becoming more hostile to other editors" is taking someone's word for it without even looking at the context; believing the bully is easy to do. "It seems like we have no other option" - oh yes, you do, you can shut this farce of a persecution down and tell Uyvsdi to debate issues raised, not continue to harass me while painting the aggressive and hostile editors as victims. This whole ANI is a victimization and extremely one-sided and biased; your "reportedly" indicates that you believe that I have been "escalating"..... do you just make this stuff up, or do you just believe what you're told by somebody who clearly is grinding an axe who doesn't herself do "proper discussion" and in fact refuses to? The option you have is to WP:DISENGAGE and let me get on with my wiki-work without any further harassment.Skookum1 (talk) 01:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
See this is why I think you need a step back. Instead of Ad hom attacks you could have been concise supplying diffs and kept your cool. Instead you continue to insist that everyone else is the problem and you are doing nothing wrong. You can be a great contributer but you also must be a great collaberator which requires more civility. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Also lack of difs are a big problem in most of your posts. I counted every single dif you posted and only three were not direct links to articles. If you want people to have evidence you need to present evidence. When someone's behavior is called into question it isn't the responsibility of third parties to go digging through various articles and talk pages to try and locate any of the information you expounded upon. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment re abuse of TLDR I've been reading TLDR and its talkpage btw....very, very interesting about the ways it can be used and especially the way it is abused. It's not supposed to be used in regard to talkpage discussions in particular; and it is not policy. Oh, if you want some more criticism that can be claimed/conflated as NPAs, you'll find me on that talkpage now, also. There's some choice bits from several editors about it being unCIVIL but I won't quote them here; they're "TLDR"Skookum1 (talk) 01:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    WP:TLDR is an essay. However, WP:TPYES is an editing guideline, which says "Be concise: Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood". Adding 135,252 characters to a single discussion is the opposite of "concise". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support 1 week cool-down block The litany of cites and testimony from a wide range of editors shows a long term pattern of aggressive and combative behavior. This doesn't erase all the quality work that Skookum1 has contributed to the encyclopedia but it does, sadly, detract from those contributions. As far as I can tell, looking at Skookum1 history, he has never really been seriously called out for his uncivil and combative behavior--at least not on the scale of this AN/I thread. Therefore, it is far too hasty to jump straight to a site ban but an escalating block and a one-week cool down seems very appropriate. AgneCheese/Wine 01:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. This is a waste of time for everyone. It is still continuing on Jimbo's page as well. [7] What does it take to shut it down. —Neotarf (talk) 03:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Geez, that was two days ago. What does it take to shut it down? Stop harrassing me and whining about valid criticisms of this process, and of its instigator....WP:DISENGAGE as I have pointed out is the valid course of action; and Uyvsdi can go write those articles on native artists from BC she claims I am the reason preventing her from doing so.Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
      • "Whining"? "Harrassing"? This type of discourse is unacceptable. This user continues to make remarks that are uncivil and unsupportable. And April 10 is not "two days" after April 9. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neotarf (talk • contribs) 17:29, 10 April 2014
        • I'm on the other side of the Int'l Dateline; I realize posts are in UTC not local time, the time difference was much larger than 24 hours. The way things are around here, time passes differently for sure, especially when there's exhaustive updates to deal with, and not just here.Skookum1 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
          • So those were all just isolated examples? And that's why this thread has gone on for so long, and with so many people weighing in? Most people who volunteer their time here only have a limited time every day to post something. That they are using up their limited Wikipedia time to comment on you, on a daily basis, instead of whatever it is they usually do, should say something. —Neotarf (talk) 11:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Skookum may ramble, and he is certainly being his own worst enemy at these venues, but I'd hardly call much of what is being offered up here as personal attacks. Some people need to grow a thicker skin to collaborate in what is not always a happy-dandy environment (and no, that is not a personal attack :P). Conversely, editors need to remind themselves that they should try to keep a happy-dandy environment and not go on tirades over how your good intentions have been wronged. There's only so many times you can say "But they did this and this and this to me" before it becomes whining. That said, as someone who has been stonewalled severely over a premise that I was knowledgeable in (crown copyright, which has since gone on to result in the URAA being disavowed on Commons), repeatedly, and seemingly without end over a two year period, I can sympathize. A block won't solve anything, it'll just increase the mounting frustration. - Floydian τ ¢ 03:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support indef block (but not ban): Skookum1 has, in this discussion, utterly refused to listen to any of the concerns that anybody has about him, and instead continues to insist that it's everybody else's fault and that he is being persecuted. His behavior in this thread alone, above and beyond his commentary elsewhere, is an indicator that he is unable or unwilling to contribute to the encyclopedia in a collegial manner. This isn't something that a fixed-length block will fix: this is why "indefinite is not infinite", and a block until he is willing or able to contribute in a cooperative manner is what is needed here. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:39, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Kwami and Uysvdi and JorisV are the ones not acting in a "cooperative manner"..... I've been fielding RMs, not moving things arbitrarily without discussion; that they obstruct RMs needed to correct their moves is very disruptive and tendentious. They are the ones not acting "collegially". My comments to BHG about using TLDR as a policy which it is not in discussions applies to you as well; that you would make TLDR a focus of discussion comments is against what TLDR itself says and is abuse of that essay. A lot of you here really need to fully read the essays and guidelines and have a really long look in the mirror.Skookum1 (talk) 05:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong support, with escalation as needed. This discussion started because of personal attacks, but the TLDR walls of text have become an issue too, and they have been repeated here at ANI. AFAICS, the underlying problem is a serious one, illustrated in several posts by Skookum1, but I'll just take one as an example, from elsewhere on this page: Skookum1 tells us that "I'm the one with local, modern expertise and aware of the complexities of the native cultural/political revival, you are the one relying on "facts" and terminologies from old books".
    This is a direct rejection of WP:V, and it's the source of Skookum1's genuine frustration. I assume in good faith that Skookum1 is genuinely expert in these topics, and I also assume in good faith that he is right to say that the book sources are outdated. The fact remains, though, that WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR are at the core of Wikipedia's content policy. Wikipedia is a tertiary publication, which means that we rely on reliable secondary sources. That means that if the reliable secondary sources don't exist, we can't have an article (because it would be original research) ... and it also means that if the scholarly sources are way out-of-date and don't reflect what's happening on the ground, then the Wikipedia article will reflect that bias and outdatedness. That's just the way it is in an encyclopedia.
    Unfortunately, Skookum1 doesn't want to accept that limitation of Wikipedia, and gets frustrated when editors demand sources, complaining above that editors say "we can't take Skookum1's word for it", even though it was concerning a topic area in which I am one of the main contributors and wiki-experts. Unless and until Skooum1 can accept that Wikipedia takes the word of reliable sources rather than editors, he will continue to get frustrated ... and that frustration will lead to more personal attacks and more TLDR screeds.
    I hate seeing any committed editor ending up in a conflict like this, but Skookum1 needs time out to reflect on whether he wants to work within the core policies of Wikipedia, or continue to push his version of WP:THETRUTH. I do hope that he continues to edit Wikipedia, but if he persists in opposing core content policies, he will will end up in more conflicts, which are unlikely to end well. Please, Skookum1, take the 1-week break as a chance to reflect on this ... because otherwise the conclusion will be that you are not here to build an an encyclopedia, and are instead on a mission to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Please explain, as an Irish person living in Ireland, what business you had closing RMs on PRIMARYTOPIC issues you are not qualified to comment on or judge, and where you ignored the evidence and counted a specious "oppose" vote in quantitatively counting votes vs qualitative examination of what they were saying and whether they were valid or not? I wouldn't presume to weigh in on PRIMARYTOPIC for Irish topics. That you used TLDR as a reason to negatively close one of the Squamish RMs or CfDs or whichever it was as if it were a policy was misprocedure (you should really read TLDR, especially the bits about how it is abused by applying it to discussions rather than articles); I'm not the one violating how Wikipedia is supposed to work, you are.Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Skookum1, a closing admin's task is to weigh the consensus of the editors who participated in a discussion, by assessing the balance of views and how well they are founded in policy. If the closing admin has any expertise in the topic, they should leave it at the door, because applying it to the closure amounts to a WP:SUPERVOTE.
You have made it quite clear that you didn't like my close of that CFD. You are entitled to open a move review if you so wish, but I suggest that you find a better reason for review than "admin failed to make a WP:SUPERVOTE".
Won't be just that one; your non-move closures of Haida people, Bella Bella, Fort Fraser, British Columbia were all with disregard to many precedents of exactly the same kind and disregarding evidence presented about valid PRIMARYTOPIC proofs - not spurious "I think "XX" is valid also", which they weren't, as others with "support" votes also attested. And where in WP:SUPERVOTE does it say anything about "leave [expertise] at the door"? I see no such passage; it is absurd that someone who does have expertise in a a topic area should disregard it while those who have no expertise at all are free to "vote" and close as they please. You are suggesting that ignorance of a topic is superior to expertise in it. As for that CfD, there is coming a triple RM on Squamish, British Columbia, Squamish (dab page at present) and Squamish people to revisit those titles in the wake of the successful RMs of the very same kind as at Lillooet and associated pages, and other "town-native people" pairings, which are common in BC (Bella Bella being one of those, which, again, was wrongly closed despite ample evidence and support votes forming a consensus you decided wasn't one....wrongly).Skookum1 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
You should also read WP:TPYES, which tells editors to "be concise", because "long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood". That guideline is particularly relevant to an XFD where you wrote more words than are usually found in a Masters Degree thesis. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
And just noting that your post was of the same length as you screamed/condemned "TLDR" for in the course of closing a discussion by targeting me as the reason for the negative close; not reading what I had to say was just ignorant and, as noted, as someone in Ireland with no knowledge of British Columbia or the indigenous topics concerned, you were out of line.Skookum1 (talk) 05:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • IDHT and (particularly) NOTHERE are very subjective reasons to block someone. There's a lot of "wiggle room", if you will, and it's wide open to interpretation. When it's not abundantly clear to everyone that an editor is so disruptive that they must be blocked, other options exist. Weighing this user's contributions against his block log[8], I do not think that he is close to the level of disruption warranting an indef. Certainly no one has to "like" him and want to be his best buddy; this isn't a social networking site. Carefully considering the "mitigating factors" of an editor when seeking an indefinite block is, IMHO, very important. A one week block would be a punitive "time-out" block at this point. How about a RfC/U? Doc talk 04:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Why not an RfC on the mass of obstructive and groundless "oppose" votes and dissembling of discussions as on the NCET talkpage?Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't see how an RFC/U would bring out much that hasn't already been revealed. In general, RFCU is a good idea, but in this case Skookum1 has already explained the underlying problem, and a RFC/U is likely to only increase the pressure he feels under as a result of it. That pressure has been vocally expressed by Skooukm1 in this thread. So in this case, I think that an RFCU would makes it less likely that Skookum1 will stay here as a productive and collaborative editor, and more likely that continued outbursts and walls of text will lead to emergency admin action. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
"walls of text" like TLDR, is only an essay not a policy. I've tried to collaborate but have been treated as uninformed and not welcome, instead I have been harassed, insulted, and now am having a necktie party held in my "honour". Your abuse of TLDR and calling my explanations/rebuttals "outbursts" is entirely specious and partisan.Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
TLDR is an essay and editors are never blocked for TLDR, however they are blocked for TLDR to the point of disruption. Skookum1, the more you post, the more you make out that you are your own worst enemy and the saddest thing is that you just don't see it. Blackmane (talk) 14:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Just back the hell off and leave him alone. Carrite (talk) 04:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks, Carrite, there's a few people here that "get it" and understand the difficulties I'm having with obstinacy and repetitive, anti-guideline persecution like what is going on here. There are enough people alienated from Wikipedia by the in-group attack-mode here in ANI and as seen in too many RMs and CfDs. I'm trying to do constructive work and am being attacked by those who are not doing constructive work, but only wish to complain about someone who points out their own faults and faulty decisions/misquotations of guidelines. The "time sink" that has resulted is not of my doing.Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
      • "I'm trying to do constructive work and am being attacked by those who are not doing constructive work" - An interesting comment that shows a distinct lack of checking what work the people being attacked by Skookum1 are doing. Such as making and expanding articles. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support – but longer would be better. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Personal attacks are entirely unacceptable in a collaborative setting. Even when it's pointed out to this user that what they are writing could be construed as uncivil they remain unrepentant[9]. It's this sort of behaviour that scares away new users or others from participating.--Labattblueboy (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Theoretically, we don't do cool-down blocks. But I think Skookum needs to cool himself down. He does himself no favors by lashing out at other editors or by posting walls of text where a few sentences would do. What might be prudent in this case is an editing restriction similar to the one imposed on Born2cycle last year, allowing uninvolved admins to ban him from particular discussions. He would be wise to keep his comments concise and not targeted at specific editors. --BDD (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • This isn't a cool down block. It is an escalating block. I have no idea why someone mentioned cool down as it has been brought up that the past block log contains only a 48 hour block. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. But I fear everyone will just be back here when the block expires, since the user doesn't seem to get it. I find this user's public meltdown painful to watch. Is there no one who can explain it to them privately? —Neotarf (talk) 17:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I would consider a counter proposal to block them all, including Neotarf, for a week. I find this pettiness tedious to the extreme. Saffron Blaze (talk) 19:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Oh, so you don't have any problem with abusing editors? Have you ever thought of becoming an admin? Or better yet, go over to Wikipedia:No personal attacks, explain how personal attacks are so useful, and get the policy changed. —Neotarf (talk) 01:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Personal attacks are not useful at all, which is why you should be lecturing Kwami about that far more than me. Conflating criticism of actions and bad ideas are not "personal attacks" is not about vicious, personal attacks like the many directed at me by him and others, including whomever it was above who suggested I have mental problems.Skookum1 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
        • So it's all these other editors who are causing you to post personal attacks against me? Can you show the diffs for that? —Neotarf (talk) 11:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    • If someone provides the difs I would be willing to consider it. Skookums so far is the only one I have difs on (since they decided providing 3 non article difs were more than sufficient) and without difs I go off of behavior at this ANI. While I will agree some baiting has occured I haven't seen anything egregious enough here to warrant blocking any other user. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Cool down blocks are not done. While Skookum1 may not always use the best phrasing, I think of other editors that have been brought here time after time because the were uncivil and made personal attacks yet were allowed to continue editing. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    • This isn't a cool down block. It is an escalating block. I have no idea why someone mentioned cool down as it has been brought up that the past block log contains only a 48 hour block. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus here for a block or ban. Please try dispute resolution instead, such as WP:RFC/U. Jehochman Talk 14:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

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