Template:Did you know nominations/Justus McKinstry
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
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Justus McKinstry[edit]
that ... Justus McKinstry was cashiered?
Sources: Eicher, John H., and David J. Eicher, Civil War High Commands. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001. ISBN 978-0-8047-3641-1. p. 605: "cashiered 'for neglect and violation of duty to the prejudice of good order and military discipline,' 28 Jan. 1863.". Warner, Ezra J. Generals in Blue: Lives of the Union Commanders. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964. ISBN 978-0-8071-0822-2. p. 304: "And after a year in arrest he was cashiered January 28, 1863, "for neglect and violation of duty, to the prejudiced of good order and military discipline," the only such sentence handed a general officer in the war." Cullum's Register online uses the word "dismissed." http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/Cullums_Register/980*.htmlALT1:that ... Union Army general Justus McKinstry was cashiered?same sources
- Reviewed: Ocean City Life-Saving Station (New Jersey)
- Comment: Hook is in lede and, with citations, in last paragraph of American Civil War section. McKinstry is listed as a general by some sources such as Warner but as Eicher points out, he was not legally commissioned as a general because he was not nominated by the President or confirmed by the U.S. Senate. That is why I list the expanded version as ALT1 despite Warner's listing and added comment. "Union Army officer" would be more accurate but perhaps would detract from the hook. Hook may be interesting because although most people know the ordinary meaning of cashier, they may wonder about its use in this way and not know about the military definition. Cullum is a 19th century source, so it is in the public domain.
Created by Donner60 (talk). Self-nominated at 03:25, 25 April 2018 (UTC).
Article was new enough when nominated, and is long enough. I see no serious neutrality issues. Earwig's tool is clear (only quotations are flagged). I spot-checked the Cullum reference. While I see no copyright issues, I'm a little concerned about verifiability. "In quick succession in 1838, he was stationed at Sackett's Harbor, New York, Fort Gratiot, Michigan and was sent to Florida for the Second Seminole War in which he served until 1841, with some time off on leave." Is cited to Cullum; but I cannot see "Second Seminole War" or "time off on leave" in the source. The article is otherwise adequately referenced, and free of neutrality issues. A few other minor issues; the paragraphs in the article are extremely short, to the point where they make it difficult to read; it's an easy fix. Also, I think we could better with the hook. The original hook isn't interesting enough, IMO. The ALT is good, but could be even better; you could combine it with the factoid about Grant/Fremont, or the factoid about the math exam. The verifiability issue also needs addressing. QPQ complete, and no image is used. Vanamonde (talk) 12:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Thanks for the review. I have reduced the number of paragraphs. Cullum calls the Seminole Wars the Florida War. This alternate name can be seen in the article Seminole Wars, which is now the more common name. Florida war redirects to Seminole Wars. The Cullum item shows two time periods for that service: "in the Florida War, 1838‑41, 1841‑42..." I am reasonably sure this indicates a break for leave. I think I also read that somewhere but I cannot find it again so I left out the "time off on leave." It was a few months and is not important over a long career. I have added citations concerning McKinstry's service in the Second Seminole War and, in fact, in the Third Seminole War in his service in Florida in the late 1850s. So complete reliance on the alternate name for the war in Cullum is not now needed in order to use the more common modern name. I also have added facts and citations concerning McKinstry's introduction of Grant to Fremont and his recommendations and assurance about Grant. Church, in particular, is a public domain source online and has the most detail. As for more alternate hooks, I can think of the following:
* ALT2: :that ... Union Army general Justus McKinstry, who failed math at West Point, was later cashiered because of accounting issues?
- "Accounting" is not the word used in the sources but I think fraud is an accounting issue, or problem and use of "accounting issues" in the hook would be supportable. The math failure, cashiering or dismissal and the reasons for it are all well sourced already.
* ALT3: that ... Union Army general Justus McKinstry recommended to Maj. Gen. John C. Fremont that he appoint Ulysses S. Grant to his first important command and was soon thereafter cashiered?
- The McKinstry introduction and recommendation of Grant is now well supported not only by the first citation to Catton but especially by the text of the new source by William Conant Church. This is online and in the public domain. This is a longer hook but still only 185 characters after punctuation and piped article name are omitted. This seems to be the shortest I can make it and still make the point. Donner60 (talk) 11:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Much better, thank you. I prefer ALT3, but if you're concerned about length, you could drop Fremont from the hook and say something like "recommended the appointment...to his first important command". It's up to you; otherwise, this is GTG, with ALT2 or ALT3: my personal preference is for the latter. Vanamonde (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Thanks for the comments and recommendation about ALT3. Let's go with ALT4, a revised version of ALT3 which I think is in line with your recommendation.
- ALT4: that ... Union Army general Justus McKinstry recommended that Ulysses S. Grant be appointed to his first important command and was soon thereafter cashiered? Donner60 (talk) 22:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- The McKinstry introduction and recommendation of Grant is now well supported not only by the first citation to Catton but especially by the text of the new source by William Conant Church. This is online and in the public domain. This is a longer hook but still only 185 characters after punctuation and piped article name are omitted. This seems to be the shortest I can make it and still make the point. Donner60 (talk) 11:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
