Template:Did you know nominations/Celeste Caeiro
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Celeste Caeiro
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A graffiti by Banksy in Lisbon featuring carnations alluding the Carnation Revolution.
... that Celeste Caeiro was the woman who handed carnations to the soldiers during the 1974 pacific revolution in Portugal, which soon became known as the Carnation Revolution?
- Reviewed:
- Comment: Celeste Caeiro died on 15 November and her gesture of handing carnations to the soldiers during the revolution of 25 April 1974 in Lisbon transformed the coup into a peaceful revolution and was dubbed the "Carnation Revolution’" globally. I have expanded her article quite a bit with reliable sources and consider it to be eligible for posting on DYK.
5x expanded by Alsoriano97 (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.
_-_Alsor (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC).
- Hi _-_Alsor, review follows: I had a quick scan through the sources and they look like news organisations, however the citations could be improved so that the name of the publication is included in the citation to make it clear to the reader; I did a spot check on verifying a claim from the source and couldn't see where this TimeOut article supported the statement "In 1974 Caeiro was working in a self-service restaurant in Lisbon called "Sir" located at Franjinhas Building on Rua Braamcamp" though that could be a failure of Google Translate, would you mind having a quick check of this (and any other sections which may not be supported)? Per WP:DYKIMG the image proposed needs to appear in the article, if you want this one it needs to be added; I would also check where you stand on freedom of panorama on 2D images, murals etc. are often still covered by copyright. The main sticking point for me is that I measure the pre-15 November version of the article at 1,222 characters and the current version at 5,656 characters. To meet the criteria of WP:DYK5X the article needs to be expanded by 5x or more, which would require an additional approx 500 characters. Do you think it is feasible to expand further? - Dumelow (talk) 11:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Dumelow: Hi, thanks for doing the review and for your suggestions! I would like to comment to you that:
- About the first one, excuse me, I don't understand what you mean. That the title of the publications must be in English so that it can be understood at first? Or that some citations are simple (mainly the last ones)? I can correct both issues.
- No, there is no mistake in the translation: the restaurant was called SIR. I will add some more references so that it can be better supported (in any case I have tried to use a better translator than Google Translate when I have needed to do so). I will also review the other citations, even though I'm sure that all the content has its respective cited source because I have made sure to do so.
- I'm going to fix what you suggest about the image as well.
- I will also try to expand article's content a little more and reach/exceed the missing 500 characters. Although I suspect that little more can be added...
- Let me spend some time later today and/or tomorrow on the article. In any case I will let you know once I have made the improvements. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Dumelow: Hi, thanks for doing the review and for your suggestions! I would like to comment to you that:
- Hi _-_Alsor, sorry to clarify in the order of your bullet points:
- The publications are fine in the native language; it was the simple citations that were just a link behind text that should really be expanded eg. with the publication name, author, date etc. where known
- Sorry, it was my mistake, I was looking for the word "Caeiro" in the article not "Celeste Martins". It is there and supports what is said. If you are happy this is the case throughout the article don't worry about checking them. I normally do a spot check of a few sentences just to check they are covered by the source and if anything is awry it is often an indication of wider problems. In this case I was being a bit stupid.
- On the image I know that if it was taken of a flat mural in the UK it would be covered by copyright and therefore not usable in DYK but laws vary around the world (but if it was a 3D sculpture for example it would be fine). I am not sure what applies in Portugal.
- Yes, hopefully there is a little more to add to bring it over the threshold.
- No worries, DYK folks are generally happy to give people about a week to work on their articles after nomination if there are things to resolve. I've watchlisted this page but if I don't respond to compelte the review feel free to message. All the best - Dumelow (talk) 18:22, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hi _-_Alsor, sorry to clarify in the order of your bullet points:
- Simple citations are no longer "simple".
- No worries! It's an understandable confusion. I have checked the rest of citations and all is in order.
- The new image I'm proposing looks like it could be used freely and is a Banksy mural, which, to my knowledge, is usually not copyrighted (correct me if I'm wrong). The alternative would be, although I'm not convinced, to use a photograph of a red carnation.
- I have managed to exceed 6000 characters. I'll continue to expand a little more as I've found a source with interesting information.
- @Dumelow: thanks again for your collaboration. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Hi _-_Alsor, expansion is now looking good. I will leave judgement on the image up to the promoter and admin when posting as I am not an expert. Citations look good. I had one query arising from one sentence:
- "When Caeiro was 18 months old, she was admitted to the Alto do Pina Day Centre and was regularly visited by her mother. At the age of 14 she was transferred to the Asilo 28 de Maio." what are these? Schools, hospitals?
Other than that looks fine. Hook is interesting, stated in the article and checks out to source cited. I wonder if it can be made a little more to the point - Dumelow (talk) 19:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
ALT1: ... that Celeste Caeiro handed flowers to soldiers during Portugal's Carnation Revolution?
- Dumelow I specified that Alto do Pina and Asilo 28 de Maio were boarding schools. Now let's see what they have to say about the image: I think it would be nice if that one was publishable. And about the altblurb you're proposing I'm not very convinced... I wouldn't want it to be understood that Caeiro only gave flowers during a revolution, but that her gesture ended up transforming the military coup into the Carnation Revolution. Perhaps:
ALT2 ... that Celeste Caeiro was the first to hand carnations to soldiers during Portugal's Carnation Revolution?- The idea would be a bit like that. I'm not very inspired today... _-_Alsor (talk) 22:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hi _-_Alsor, yes that's fine. The article doesn't currently state that she was the first to hand out carnations. Can you add that (and check it is covered by the source). Thanks - Dumelow (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hello Dumelow. I don't know if it is necessary to explain it, since statements like “The idea was copied and the florists donated more flowers to the mutinous soldiers. The pictures of the soldiers with carnations in their guns appeared on front pages all over the world and the coup became known globally as the Carnation Revolution “ or the headlines of the reliable sources that have been cited as "Celeste Caeiro, Whose Flowers Gave a Name to a Revolt, Dies at 91" (NYT) or "Portugal's ’Carnations Lady' who gave a name to 1974 revolution dies at 91” (Reuters) already hint at this fact. What seems clear is that we have to find a better blurb than the one we have proposed with the ideas we both have of what it should be and what other editors who want to intervene can propose. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hello Dumelow, I propose another alternative blurb, taking it from the lead of Caeiro's article:
- Hello Dumelow. I don't know if it is necessary to explain it, since statements like “The idea was copied and the florists donated more flowers to the mutinous soldiers. The pictures of the soldiers with carnations in their guns appeared on front pages all over the world and the coup became known globally as the Carnation Revolution “ or the headlines of the reliable sources that have been cited as "Celeste Caeiro, Whose Flowers Gave a Name to a Revolt, Dies at 91" (NYT) or "Portugal's ’Carnations Lady' who gave a name to 1974 revolution dies at 91” (Reuters) already hint at this fact. What seems clear is that we have to find a better blurb than the one we have proposed with the ideas we both have of what it should be and what other editors who want to intervene can propose. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hi _-_Alsor, yes that's fine. The article doesn't currently state that she was the first to hand out carnations. Can you add that (and check it is covered by the source). Thanks - Dumelow (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- ALT3 that Celeste Caeiro 's actions led to the naming of the 1974 coup in Portugal as the Carnation Revolution? _-_Alsor (talk) 09:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hi _-_Alsor, the source cited in the article says that this is one of only three possibilities for why it was called the Carnation Revolution. Do you have a better source you can replace it with that says it was definitely Caeiro's act that led to the naming? - Dumelow (talk) 09:58, 22 November 2024 (UTC)