Talk:Execution of Navid Afkari

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you can use these References[edit]

you can use these References and And I will be happy if English language users expand the article thank you


--Hoseina051311 (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Hoseina051311, I have added some of these references in the course of rewriting parts of the article, in particular (so far at least) the lead section.--CRau080 (talk) 13:30, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Alleged"[edit]

The murder is no longer "alleged" if he has been convicted. It might be a false charge but it's not "alleged" after conviction. ... discospinster talk 15:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

It will be. If the ruling was made with no clear evidence linking the convicted to the charges, no one can say for definite the murder was made by the convicted. Hence, "alleged".mjrx (talk) 23:32, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is not for Wikipedia to say whether the evidence was sufficient. You can say that some legal experts have stated such, but your own analysis has no place in the article. The fact is that he was convicted, and "alleged" is only used before a guilty verdict. ... discospinster talk 00:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Again. It is true that he was convicted; however, his conviction was unlawful. I urge you to go read as to why that was, in the sources included, or you can go a step further and read more than what is already cited. You cannot tag people with false labels (i.e. murderer). I would be surprised if Wiki is in favour of that either.mjrx (talk) 21:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

National champion?[edit]

Is this true? There are many sources claiming this but i have never heard of him as wrestling national champion before. And he is not mentioned in the wrestling database at UWW either. Seems like it is an exaggeration, he probably was a state champion or a local champion.

Actually I was also slightly confused about that issue. However reliable sources like BBC have mentioned that he was a national champion without specifying much more detailed information about his wrestling career. CNN says he was a champion wrestler without mentioning whether he was a champion at provincial, state or national level. It might be due to the inability to find enough information about him and I am pity sure Government of Iran might have destroyed his career statistics as a possible retaliation. Abishe (talk) 15:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He was a wrestler but he was not a national champion, his highest wrestling career honor was being placed 8th in 71kg catagory of Iran's inter provioncional 2016 games.

Iran wrestling federation site: [1]

Farzam1370 (talk) 10:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ http://www.iawf.ir/Content/Content.aspx?PageCode=47925

Neutrality[edit]

Even if you believe in your heart of hearts that this execution was unjust, the article has to remain neutral. Original research (i.e. putting two and two together based on what you've read in the newspaper) is inappropriate. If you want to say these things then start a blog. This article is not meant to point out how terrible it is, only what happened and what the global reaction was according to reliable, third-party sources. ... discospinster talk 22:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I have nothing against that. Yes. An article must be neutral. And also, there must be information provided. The more information, the better one would be able to grasp the situation. I do not believe in anything but the truth. The truth is, there is not a single evidence that would prove Navid committed the alleged murder. Do not confuse the truth with what I believe. One might think the sky is yellow, but the truth is, it is blue. Just because you want it to be yellow does not mean it actually is. The sky is blue and that is a neutral statement, despite your affection for it to be yellow.

I suppose then it would also be OK for someone from the Iranian government (or their supporters) to edit the article to say their point of view, that the evidence was sufficient and it was a fair verdict? Because according to them, that would be the "truth", and as you say, the more information the better. ... discospinster talk 00:18, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well yes, only if they had evidence to back their claim. There was no evidence that Navid Afkari had committed the murder. It is that simple. Read the sources for God's sake.mjrx (talk) 21:38, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The court seemed to think they had evidence, they don't have to prove it to you. So here is the problem: you disagree with the court, and you are trying to argue in this article why the conviction was unjust. This is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. ... discospinster talk 16:28, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Discospinster:: Do you find "Despite Islamic Republic's efforts to portray Navid's execution as a retribution for the deceased security guard, the murder charge was never proven", which is already in the lead, to be factually correct? I think some "Words that may introduce bias" are used. --Mhhossein talk 12:53, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if it's factually correct or not, but the way it's written could definitely be a bit more neutral. ... discospinster talk 16:30, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein:: Please be specific with your sentence; what words are you exactly pointing at?!

For instance, is "despite" or sth like this, used in any of the sources? We know it's creating a strong contrast. --Mhhossein talk 12:44, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is definitely not neutral when it says who was sentenced to death and executed by the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran for protesting against the regime during the 2018 unrest in Iran, as well as the alleged murder of an undercover security guard from the IRGC[5] that occurred during the 2018 Iranian protests.

Unless it can be shown that Afkari was charged with the crime of protesting (not sure if exists on the books), it should read something like "was executed after being convicted of murder, although many sources believe the reason for the execution was his participation in the 2018 protests".VR talk 14:43, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

discospinster I have taken a stab at neutrality here. What do you think?VR talk 14:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the POV tag after extensive edits throughout the article. I believe that neutrality has been sufficiently strengthened, in particular through the inclusion of the alternative point of view in the lead. There may be space for improvement remaining, though.--CRau080 (talk) 22:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it in source?[edit]

The article says Despite the Islamic Republic's efforts to portray Afkari's execution as retribution for the deceased security guard, the murder charge was never proven. The only English source given is this Guardian article. Can someone show where the article says this? VR talk 14:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pahlevun, since you said you can read Farsi, can you tell me if the above content is in the following sources[1][2]. And if it is, is it the opinion of the author or does it cite court documents or is there some other basis for the claim? VR talk 19:54, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see BBC Persian link given explicitly saying this. Radio Zamaneh link above concludes that "It is not clear who has murdered Hassan Torkaman." None of the two are tagged as an opinion piece. Regarding the basis for the claims made, the case seems very complicated and investigating sides at each claim may take too much time. I suggest removing the content –especially when The Guardian does not back this content– and asking the user who added this to provide the exact part of the sources he thinks does support the claim. Pahlevun (talk) 08:51, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A huge amount of the sources used in this article are in Persian language, and I think the problem this article deals with, lies exactly here. I do not generally use Persian-language sources, most importantly because a few editors can verify them but also because their content is prone to massive propaganda aimed at Iranian audience, whether they are produced inside Iran (under government supervision) or outside by state-sponsored media. As a result, I don't consider BBC Persian as reliable as BBC World: the quality of the content produced by the former is way lower. This also applies to sources such as Radio Farda and RFE/RL. And I believe using Iran International for an article about Iran is just like using Al-Alam for an article about Saudi Arabia. Generally speaking, English-language sources have this problem to a lesser extent. Pahlevun (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is this wikipedia or an opposition media outlet?[edit]

This wiki article is filled with biased, unsupported and false statements.

This article even got the basics wrong!!!

For starters Afkari was not arrested in protests nor the victim was not an IRGC agent(where they have come with this nonsense!!!) and Afkari was indeed condemned before 6 judges for murder(whether you believe he was guilty or not).

This article needs a complete review and editing. Farzam1370 (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Provide reliable sources. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 22:12, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am an Iranian and I am fully aware of the subject. What you are saying is a pure lie. Please visit the Persian Wikipedia and read it with the help of Google translation and find out the truth. Maniammmbrn (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What am I saying here again? I just said you need to provide some reliable sources for your claims. What is written on the Persian Wikipedia stays there. This is a different wikiproject. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 20:39, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

December 2020 Edit Warring Consensus[edit]

In an attempt to avoid edit warring, and to encourage those who are more familiar in this topic to chime in, I am starting a topic here in order to discuss issues that Farzam1370 currently has with the current content on this article. An IP editor seems to have also joined in on editing the same areas of concern. My most recent contribution [1] is an attempt to remediate the current dispute. Please discuss any issues with this contribution here so we can avoid additional reverts. Thanks, Transcendental (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Execution_of_Navid_Afkari&oldid=993644765
You are reverting edits that have been provided with sources, there is no source in that page that mentions him being an IRGC agent, please as I said before take time and review the sources, I have reviewed the sources, delted the the unsourced material and added sources on him being a security guard of water treatment department, how the hell he is an IRGC officer and at the same time an employee of water tteatment department?!! That IP user was me, I forgot to log in. So I have provided sources on him being a security guard, If you have sources claiming him an IRGC agent, please provide them.I have also added Iranian police report on his arrest and added charges according to the original source, again if you have any take on it, please provide a source, all those materials are sourced. Also i have changed the language of some sections according to the provided source, a claim by defendent lawyer is a claim not a fact.So please if you are not knowledgable nor interested in reviewing sources, stop reverting.Farzam1370 (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And charges never proven?! Proven to whom? This is a statement which has no place in wikipedia, They were proven to the court and the court of appeal, it was disputed by Afkar, the best that can be said is that it was disputed by Afkari.Farzam1370 (talk) 19:38, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Navid Afkari?[edit]

Navid Afkari redirects here. Is there any reason the article is named Execution of Navid Afkari instead of Navid Afkari? RJFJR (talk) 13:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this man had a life, which should be described. As a sportsman, he was relevant for Wikipedia, since he was a famous wrestler in Iran. The article should be moved back to Navid Afkari (page title in all other Wikipedia language versions) and extended. -- PhJ (talk) 06:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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