Talk:Haditha massacre

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Requested move 27 April 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus obviously shows that the word "massacre" is used more than "killings" in this case. WP:COMMONNAME (non-admin closure) Anarchyte (work | talk) 12:02, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Haditha killings → Haditha Massacre Haditha massacre – We need to leave personal biases on the side and consider the title of the article based on the common name policy of Wikipedia. A Google Books results indicates that the current title "Haditha killings" has only 413 results in published works ([1]), while the name "Haditha Massacre" is far more common with 726 results in published works ([2]). Albeit slightly, we can also find support for the proposed title in news sources with 352 results ([3]) versus the current title's 289 results ([4]). Google Scholar also indicates a majority of sources favor "Haditha Massacre" with 138 results ([5]) versus the current title with 101 results ([6]). In total, this demonstrates an overwhelming support for the proposed new title of Haditha Massacre. Thanks.-- MarshalN20 Talk 21:45, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen it spelled both ways; similar to the My Lai Massacre, which also has the "massacre" part at times in lowercase. The n-gram does not provide evidence in relation to the capitalization. It does, however, further support the new title with "massacre" included instead of "killings" or (much less used) "incident".--MarshalN20 Talk 02:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If it's spelled both ways, we default to lowercase. The n-grams find that that capped version is too rare to include in the stats: [7]. The My-Lai has a similar problem; we can work on. Dicklyon (talk) 03:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the extra explanation. Yes, I think a move would also benefit the My-Lai article. I'm changing the original move request by striking through the old proposed move title. Have a good day.--MarshalN20 Talk 03:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the lower-cased version. The "massacre" title is also better for WP:PRECISION and WP:RECOGNIZABLE reasons than "killings", which could refer to anyone ever killed there.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Clearly the most common name, despite the feathers it ruffles. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but move to Haditha massacre and not to Haditha Massacre. "Massacre" is not a proper name. JIP | Talk 20:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but to Haditha massacre, search results indicate suggested title is WP:COMMONNAME. Baking Soda (talk) 17:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The word massacre is loaded and non-neutral, and therefore WP:POVTITLE requires that the subject be "mainly" referred to by that name, which I don't think is satisfied here. Even the sources quoted above only suggest a 2:1 preponderence of the proposed name vs the current name, and that discounts all sources that don't call it by either of those two names. For example [8]. It's also telling that contributors here want to downcase "massacre". That in particular suggests the massacre form has *not* become a proper noun, (as required by POVTITLE), therefore the conditions for a POVTITLE are not met and we should stick with the current more neutral descriptive title.  — Amakuru (talk) 06:48, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The BBC article linked in Amakuru's comment makes it pretty clear as to why the name "Haditha killings" is actually non-neutral (and why WP:POVTITLE cannot be applied). The term "Haditha killings" is non-neutral because it inherently favors the cover-up by the United States military of an event that most sources (2 to 1, as Amakuru points out) define as a "massacre" and others, as Amakuru also shows, a "tragedy" or "atrocity". Here is a New York Times article for more information ([9]). To recap, there is unfortunately no name available to describe this event in a neutral manner: "killings" favors the US military perspective and "massacre" favors pretty much the rest of the world's view. I'd rather favor the rest of the world on this one.--MarshalN20 Talk 16:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • But... that is kind of the point. Wikipedia favors avoiding certain provocative terms even when merited to err on the side of safety - and yes, this is non-neutral in favor of the "accused" so to speak. It's most obvious with, say, accused but non-convicted criminals; the article Ariel Castro kidnappings was originally at Kidnappings of Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight even when it was 100% obvious that Castro did it. Even if the term "massacre" is wholly merited here, and let's face it, it probably is, do you trust Wikipedia to "get it right" 100% of the time? The whole point of the policy is to play it safe, which means not using such terms except in truly exceptional circumstances. SnowFire (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By this point, in 2016 (well over a decade since the event), calling the occurrence at Haditha a "massacre" is hardly provocative. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck...and most sources call it a duck...then Wikipedia should call it a duck. Let's also keep in mind that the obvious 2 to 1 preponderance of sources in favor of the term "massacre" instead of "killings" is not a matter to be so easily minimized.--MarshalN20 Talk 00:22, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, although somewhat weakly. "Massacre" does seem something of the WP:COMMONNAME, but per above reply to MarshalN20, Wikipedia should still avoid using "massacre" without a crazy huge preponderance of the sources agreeing, at least IMO. SnowFire (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Possibly unnecessary link[edit]

Should the word "anonymous" in "The investigation found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians", according to an anonymous Pentagon official," be linked? I think the readers know what anonymous means, we don't want to clutter the page with links.

Woozybydefault (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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