Talk:Charles-Marie Widor

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Low heights?[edit]

".. .French organ music, which had sunk to low heights during the 18th century..." I believe the century intended is the nineteenth, but I hesitate to polish this pearl. --Wetman 10:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Low heights" is an odd way of putting it, as well. Also the article makes no mention of Widor's considerable quantity of other music - stage, orchestral, chamber, piano, choral and songs. Mike wheeler 10:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It does not give enough about his life story. I was pleased to read that he didn't like for the Toccata to be played at superspeed. I've got a version by Virgil Fox that sounds like he's trying to break the Guinness world record or run a fifty-yard dash to the goal line. That ain't the way they play it at Holy Trinity. --Bluejay Young 08:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Widor was pleased with the world-wide renown this single piece afforded him, but he was unhappy with how fast many other organists played it. Widor himself always played the Toccata rather deliberately. Many organists play it at speed whereas Widor preferred a more contolled articulation to be involved. He recorded the piece, along with his Symphony Gothique at St. Sulpice in his eighty-eighth year."

I should be grateful for evidence to support these claims. (Anon.)

"I remember well Widor making the record of his Toccata. It was in 1932, Widor was 88 years old, and his fingers were less than supple..." see reminiscences by W. L. Sumner, G. N. Skuce, Evan Rigby, Nigel Davison, H. F. Macklin, "The Widor Toccata" The Musical Times 105.1454 (April 1964), p. 277, and Stuart Duncan, Leonard Lazell, Eric Booth, George Fill "Widor's Toccata" The Musical Times 112.1535 (January 1971), p. 30 (both in JSTOR on-line texts). Gratitude not required.--Wetman 12:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, George Austin, sometime assistant at Worcester, who taught me organ, told me he visited Widor in Paris as a young man (it must have been in the early 1930s)and asked him to play it. It was, as the article says, very deliberate -- about half the speed at which it is usually played today. George explained that it was because otherwise the repeated semiquaver chords in the left hand wouldn't be heard. He didn't suggest that it was because of any supposed infirmity on Widor's part. But then this info isn't, of course, of any use as testimony for the article! --PL (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This recording exists today and is readily available on CD. It is published by EMI as part of their "Composers in person" series. Very interesting listening. —Cor anglais 16 19:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How does the ogg sample in the article compare to Widor's in terms of speed? And is it even really the right piece? It is interesting to listen to but I'm having trouble imagining it being played at a wedding. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 04:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The ogg sample is faster than Widor's tempo, though not played terribly well. It is in fact the correct piece; the sample starts just before the recapitulation of the primary theme, already several minutes into the work. The toccata is the final movement of Widor's fifth organ symphony; since the organ symphony is a secular genre, the piece has been "pulled" into the sacred sphere by countless organists playing it (poorly, often) at weddings. However, it isn't of its own virtue a sacred piece and was not intended as wedding music. —Cor anglais 16 17:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I just meant the ogg sample doesn't have the mood one would expect to hear at a wedding, notwithstanding whether it was religious in character. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 00:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I've changed Widor's birthdate from February 24 to February 21. The former date can often be found, but is incorrect (as is the birth year 1845, also frequently found). February 21, 1844 is the correct date according to Widor's birth certificate, which still exists in his native town of Lyons. 82.230.232.194 14:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crescendo Music Publications[edit]

The intent of the works listed is to provide the original publisher for each work. It may be worthwhile to mention CMP's rerelease of some of these works in a footnote or at some other appropriate place in the article, but it should not be mentioned in the works list. Random Pipings (talk) 14:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Random Pipings[reply]

Low Point of French Organ Music[edit]

While making my previous post on the talk page, I noted Wetman's concern about the use of the phrase "reached its low point in the 18th century". This is a valid concern; it would be more accurate to place the low point of French organ music in the 19th century, and the article has been changed to reflect this. Random Pipings (talk) 14:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Random Pipings[reply]

Composer project review[edit]

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is not B-class. It is missing to much basic biographical information--we know nothing about his personal life, or e.g. if he traveled at all. The musicology also needs some work; details are in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 18:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Work List[edit]

I've reviewed the worklist and added missing dates and publishers, and also tidied up some titles. Here are some further suggestions: 1) Could we remove the many arrangements from this list, at least the ones not identified as being from Widor himself? These more properly belong in worklists of the arrangers, I think. Most of the piano duet/duo items are arrangements. 2) How about seperating the choral music from the vocal works? 3) Some of the items in the orchestral section seem to be duplicates of stage works - or are these suites/excerpts? Some further info on this would be appreciated. Greatorex (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Charles-Marie Widor/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Charles-Marie Widor: 2009-02-23==

This is an assessment of article Charles-Marie Widor by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • Basic professional biography; no personal details, no integration of composing.

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • Basic professional biography; no personal details, no integration of composing.

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • ok, looks complete

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Style and reception are adequately, if minimally covered. Musicology wanders off focus.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • ok, but some of the musical works on Commons could be shown here.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article has references; no inline citations.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • Lead is short; musicology lacks focus.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
  • Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
  • Article needs (more) sound clips
  • Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) (musicology)

===Summary=== This is a somewhat basic biography. It gives adequate coverage to Widor's professional life, but there are no personal details beyond the childhood years. Considering a biography of him exists and is used as a source, I find this lack problematic. More context on when works were written would also be useful.

The musicology discussion is at times unfocused; we don't need to know how many movements a work has, if that's all that will be said about it. Use more space to tell me about performances, with popular and critical reception. Also, I suspect most readers will not know, when the word "symphony" appears, that it seems to mean "organ symphony" in this article (important, considering he did write orchestral symphonies as well). It would be better to be clear about which is being referred to at any given time.

Article is Start-class; notable gaps in material that ought to be available. Magic♪piano 18:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 18:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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