Talk:Zyzz/Archive 1

Archive 1

Ethnicity

We know he was born in Moscow Russia, therefore has a russian nationality to begin with right? but look at his name, Aziz Shaershian, his last name sounds pretty Armenian with the "ian" suffix many Armenians have in their surnames. Also his first name is Aziz, which is a Muslim name, and so is Chestbrah's first name "Said" is Muslim, but of-course very few Armenians are muslim, lacking a significant minority, looks like a family of mixed heritage that came from Moscow. They both appear to have a middle-eastern complexion too, and Armenia is adajacent to the middle east. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.159.2.59 (talk) 02:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

That is nice to know, could you please provide a reliable reference to corroborate that? -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 07:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Major structuring, more sources etc

I'll be re-working as well as restructuring the article, more sources etc. Had been working on this, prior to completion of this article. Any queries or issues, please chat me :) -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 11:34, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Circumstances of death

Presently the location is described as a "hotel sauna". Firstly, the article linked to does mention sauna but makes no mention of a hotel. Secondly at the bodybuilding.com forum a link to a notice purporting to be an official communication, which looks legitimate, lists the location as a "spa service". See forum.bb.com/showthread.php?t=137091063&p=732381313&highlight=spa+camillian#post732381313 (replace bb with bodybuilding, spam filter) In Bangkok there are many kinds of spa/sauna services and they aren't all related to hotels so we shouldn't be presuming such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.12.81.215 (talk) 15:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Forums don't meet Wikipedia's policy as a reliable source, and there's more than one source confirming where he died. -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 21:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
• Please refer me to one source confirming that he died in a hotel sauna. The present source does not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.91.170.170 (talk) 06:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Please direct me to where it presently says "hotel" in the article -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 09:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Article title

Should the title of the article not be simply "Zyzz", as opposed to "Aziz Shavershian"? It feels like a more fitting title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swoleman (talk • contribs) 09:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Aziz Shavershian is his name. This article is about the person Aziz Shavershian, rather the self-described persona, known as Zyzz.

Also, if you're worried about people accessing this article who don't know his real name, I have redirected 'Zyzz' to this article, as well as other names. -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 09:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

No evidence that mother is a cardiologist

The article quoted says his mother "worked in cardiology". Following Zyzz's death his friends were asking for money to be raised to pay for his funeral citing a poor family background. It was claimed and subsequently contested that his parents were wealthy and one close source said the mother is a nurse or hospital administrative worker, I forget exactly which. More evidence too that the family was not wealthy, unsavoury though so won't quote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.12.82.85 (talk) 12:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

• "Mr Shavershian's mother, who works in cardiology, said he started to show symptoms of heart problems a few months ago but she had no idea that he had a heart condition." - Nine News

You do not have to be a nurse or a cardiologist or whatever the case may be, to be rich. You can easily still be poor. Barring that, I would take Nine news being a Reliable source, over un-reliably-sourced opinions or quotes, any day of the week. -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 07:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Believe the popular media over close acquaintances of the man himself. You sir are something we aren't allowed to say here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.91.11.140 (talk) 10:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Barring the insult you've provided, this discussion is over, Unless you can provide multiple reliable internet sources stating otherwise. Thank you -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 11:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Zyzz's Birthday

I'm pretty sure it's March 23. Not sure where the editor got March 24 from. Feel free to revert and provide source if I am incorrect. R.I.P. Zyzzbrah 72.201.233.83 (talk) 04:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

And do what you did do? Not provide a source? It would make this process a lot faster, and simple if you were to provide a reliable source that corroborates what you are saying. Thanks -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 04:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there's no source for March 24 so why is that any better? I don't know any official sources but if you Google "Zyzz birthday", several threads from the Misc. section of the BodyBuilding.com forums show March 23. 72.201.233.83 (talk) 16:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting, you talk as if Misc is a reliable source. -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 02:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting, I said it wasn't an official source. Please tell me what source says he was born March 24. 72.201.233.83 (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

We've established that google knows two dates. Let's shorten it down to one date. Okay, his own private-Facebook account lists the 24th, as well as his own public-Formspring account. The use of Facebook and Formspring as sources, fall under WP:ABOUTSELF. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Category removal

I have removed the categories Category:Australian people and Category:Russian people as he is already in many subcategories of the top level cat, and the top level cats have a note on them saying "Pages in this category should be moved to subcategories where applicable." ie nobody should be in Category:Australian people at all - they should be in Category:Australian models or whatever. The-Pope (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)}

File:Zyzzandchestbrah.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Zyzzandchestbrah.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 07:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Zyzztransformation.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Zyzztransformation.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 07:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 31 December 2011

It says at the end of 'Death and aftermath':

Zyzz's max bench press is currently zero kilograms.

-I think it's without saying how distasteful this is in describing a man who has died. Please can you remove it.

2.25.88.168 (talk) 20:24, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. I don't think that was meant to be there. Honette 21:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Delete this nonsense, Wikipedia is better than this

The only thing that led me to this page is youtube mention of his name. This man is a partial Internet celebrity with no notable contribution to any other field besides some youtube videos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.174.241 (talk) 23:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Glad we're all entitled to our own opinion, however at the end of the day, it's the reliable sources this article has, and the large coverage the subject has had that counts. And just to let you know, we have hundreds of articles on internet celebrities. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 23:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

And curious I am, but did you even read the article?

The subject, among an Internet celebrity, has:

• Pubblished a Book
• Casted in a Production
• Has own Protein line
• A well established following

You will find that out in the article, if you actually read it, -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 23:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Formspring

To remind editors, Shavershian's Formspring may be used under the following policy: WP:ABOUTSELF.

However, having said that, content likely to be disputed or is simply unclear - for example, Steroid / Drug abuse - must be accompanied by a reliable source - that directly supports what has been stated in Formspring answer. -- MST☆R ^{(Happy New Year!)} 05:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

While it's permitted to use self-published sources, there are very few situations that warrant them. Generally, unless there is a significant claim about the person that would reasonably be included in a biography, just leave it out. Danger ^{High voltage!} 05:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. -- MST☆R ^{(Happy New Year!)} 06:00, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The addition (link) "Aside from bodybuilding, Shavershian was also the occasional drug dealer" states that he was a drug dealer. However, it's unclear if Shavershian was joking or not on his Formspring account. If you analyse the written statement, there are some issues: (a) the word the implies it is common knowledge that he was a known drug dealer; (b) the word occasional is an adjective that could be replaced with casual or frequent. How did one conclude the use of occasional? I don't see a reliable source to support these. I'd leave that out as well. Honette 08:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Besides the sourcing issue, I should point out that not even an idiot would publicly admit to intentions to smuggle drugs into Thailand, where drug offenses are capital offenses. This was unambiguously a joke. It's ridiculous that we are even having a conversation about this. Danger ^{High voltage!} 17:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I am trying to do the best I can to ensure that Wikipedia remains an objective source for information. I am also wondering why, if his formspring can't be trusted, it is cited so often. Shouldn't his height be listed as unknown? It would seem to me that he could easily be lying about that. Of course, you seem to be good at detecting what is authentic and what is not. Maybe we should make it a rule of thumb that if something could be interpreted in a negative light, that it isn't authentic? That is, after all, what we seem to have been doing so far.

Also, zyzzcentral is cited at least twice. Should I delete those citations along with the material that cites it? We did come to the conclusion that zyzzcentral is unreliable, did we not? I think it was Melbourne Star that said zyzzcentral can't be trusted because there is no editorial oversight. It would seem that there is no editorial oversight for formspring either, unless I am mistaken.

I fail to see how, with the standards that we have established for this article, you can simply discard the fact that Shavershian was a drug dealer willy nilly. He said in his response for the formspring question that he was going to "chill out, go beaches, sight seeing, smuggle heroin, check out landmarks, the nightlife, etc just the usual". In other words, smuggling heroin is just "the usual" for him. Again, I'm left wondering what rules we are using to throw out legitimate statements made by the man himself.

Please respond, but please also remember that we are trying to have a civil discussion here, and not a civil war.

Trying to make Wikipedia a better place, Zuloon (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the zyzzcentral citation should be deleted. Fansites are not reliable sources. And as I've noted previously, if one were to base an article about me on my Facebook and blog comments, one would have to put that I'm a murderer for hire, an alcoholic, a tree, and a pussy cat based on various jokes I've made. We have no reason to believe that he is lying about his height, though it's possible and perhaps a note should be added to indicate that this has not been verified by any outside sources. Danger ^{High voltage!} 18:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Danger makes (as always) some extremely valid points, but I would suggest that it might be preferable for all concerned to use this talk page rather than have long comments scattered through the edit summaries. As for the veracity of Facbook pages, there is no guarantee that they were even created by the subjects themselves - as I know from my own bitter experience. FWIW, there are plenty of idiot tourists doing life here in the 'Bangkok Hilton' who couldn't keep their trap shut ;) (I once taught English to the governor's children) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I always forget that, to paraphrase Einstein, there are no bounds to either the universe or human stupidity. Danger ^{High voltage!} 05:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that offends me. Kudpung, can you tone down the racism please? Thank you. 99.178.135.39 (talk) 14:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems that a primary source can be used for completely neutral, unchallenged, objective facts, which are not challenged, similarly to an unreferenced piece of text. Thus, if something is contentious, either remove it or find a third-party citation. A412 (Talk • C) 14:13, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Model

It won't let me change the article, but it says that Zyzz was a model. I don't know if he worked as a model, but the newspaper only says that he aspired to be one. I think that it should describe Zyzz as an "aspiring model" like the reference did. Also, was he in Underbelly? I didn't see him in the credits, and he isn't in IMDB for it.--120.151.202.171 (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

According to one of the sources, he worked with the Sydney Hotshots ~ as a stripper. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 10:03, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Stripper ≠ Model.—Ryulong (竜龙) 17:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Various websites claim he's kurdish facepunch.com/threads/1116505, forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123778431&page=1, "Zyzz is half Kurdish half Persian" www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=uSxxXT3DkBI and even himself: bayimg.com/lanDIAadf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.13.102 (talk) 14:16, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Really only a strip dancer?

This gives the impression he was more of a real dancer (onstage). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYN7aai4JG4&feature=player_embedded Umirin bro? No really - u mirin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GvH (talk • contribs) 10:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because...

Notability guidelines state...

Arnold used steroids...Arnold cheated on his wife...my point being just because he used anabolic steroids does not discredit his work. He was an inspiration BEFORE his death. He thought many people to live life to the fullest, taking his page off would be unfortunate. People need to learn something from him.....live life to the fullest. Which is something he practiced everyday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.33.147 (talk) 04:54, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.[1]

Aziz Shavershian was actually a media topic BEFORE he died. See this article here,

http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/fitness/all-pumped-up-but-tell-us-how-20110730-1i5cd.html

Date July 31. He died August 5.

Quoting the article,

"The brothers - Said Sergeyevich Shavershian, 25, and Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian, 22 - who go by the nicknames Chestbrah and Zyzz, are the pin-up boys of an amateur bodybuilding scene."

His premature death added to his notability. Googling "zyzz aziz" gives 47,000 results. The first page suggests 90 + 148, or 238 articles on the subject of him/his death. These are NEWS sources. He is notable, do some research before presuming otherwise.

--TestMeat (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because...

WP:BLP1E - If the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial and well-documented....a separate biography may be appropriate. Considering this, we know that his memorial facebook page has over 81,000 likes. His original facebook fan page has over 167,000 likes. A google search of "zyzz" generates 330,000 hits. This interview given to a renowned body-building website http://www.simplyshredded.com/exclusive-zyzz-interview.html shows his notoriety before his death. He is also known for releasing a book on bodybuilding, a line of protein, and is an internet sensation. The people who are arguing for the article deletion are from outside Australia. They are not aware of the cultural impact that he has had before, and since his death.

large internet celebrity in Australia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.92.160 (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason I can see in the guidelines as to why this would/should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.120.16.133 (talk) 05:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Sergeyevich not his last name

"But it that news report it said YOU were 23 years old, and now you're saying you're 22?

Yes. the news resport also said my last name is sergeyevich, when thats just a facebook alias so i dont give out my real last name. wrong name and age. very smart they are"

http://www.formspring.me/azyzz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.1.83.25 (talk) 17:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the surname used in the article is and always has been Shavershian. -- MelbourneStar☆ ^{(talk to me)} 05:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

He was born in Russia, so Russian naming tradition would apply. The name "Sergeyevich" would accordingly be the "fathers name", a by name added between first and last name and used to address a person in an informal or friendly way. The son of any father with the name "Sergey" would be "Sergeyevich". His full name therefore might be: Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian. On that note: The last name seems not to be a typical Russian name, but rather a typical Armenian name. (Random vistor, who needed exactly the information on this - in bodybuilding circles quite famous - athlete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.4.208 (talk) 16:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

HPD.de

This article is not a reliable source, despite MelbourneStar's insistence to the opposite. This is an article on agnostics and atheists in sports, and it was only used to say that Shavershian is an "Internet personality", rather than an "Internet celebrity" (which is the phrasing the article uses, and where our article on the matter is located). Unless the subject was from the country the reliable source is from and they are known in that nation's language, Wikipedia should stick to English language sources on Anglophone subjects, and this one opinion piece/human interest story is not good enough, unless we want to happen to state that Shavershian is an atheist.—Ryulong (竜龙) 01:35, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

An Internet Personality is an Internet Celebrity - both the same thing, just reworded. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 02:40, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

We don't need to reword it. Our article is "Internet celebrity".—Ryulong (竜龙) 04:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Book

Book was ghostwritten — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.168.77 (talk) 15:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that?—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Book can be found at http://www.zyzz.com.au — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennyboyccl (talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

4chan and Bodybuilding.com 's MISC

Zyzz's popularity and rise to fame was a direct result of 4chan's /fit/ and bb.com's misc. This is where all of his original fans appeared from, and he posted to both regularly, so why don't these have a mention as they basically made him what he is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.169.214 (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Because there is no reliable sources picking up on those forums; according to news outlets his Facebook fame is more significant - that's why FB is mentioned, and not those forums. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 14:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Rules 1 and 2 bro. Anyway yeah it was Facebook when he got famous.Deltasama (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 April 2012

I think you should add Aziz Shavershians Book to the link list. It took me a while to find it so im sure others will be looking for it too. It is found at http://www.zyzz.com.au Bennyboyccl (talk) 08:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please read our policy on external links. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 03:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Remake article about Chestbrah, or rename the article about Zyzz

It should be a Duo article about two people, as they were togethor notable and not notable if they were seperate. Already Chestbrah got merged into Zyzz's article but the article about Zyzz only mentions Said as pleading guilty for steroids and also being a fast bodybuilder. --173.181.122.127 (talk) 01:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Said "Chestbrah" Shavershian is not notable per our policies on the matter.—Ryulong (竜龙) 01:46, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Echoing Ryulong, the individual in question is currently not notable - if the subject moves back into the mainstream media spotlight again, an article will be re-created - however probably won't happen anytime too soon. On the note of a merge, the AfD regarding the Said Shavershian article, was a delete not merge. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 04:05, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Zyzz's Bodybuilding Bible

Are we going to sit here and debate whether or not Aziz Shavershian wrote this or not - despite the fact he has implied he has; hence the reason it's his name on the cover, it's his name that is in the credit, and it's his knowledge he acquired over the duration of his bodybuilding career?

I would like to see where Shavershian has stated that this book is ghostwritten - and if it was, don't need to remove it - just simply say it was. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 10:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

You can't see his words directly because they have long been deleted. But go and ask anyone who knew him or anyone on bodybuilding.com forums where Aziz elaborated on the book and where it's general knowledge that he didn't write it. He clearly stated that he let someone add his name on the front in exchange for profits. Why do u think there is no mention of the book or website anywhere on his facebook. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.61.141 (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

"But go and ask anyone who knew him or anyone on bodybuilding.com forums" = Original Research. Does he have to add the book to his Facebook page? When you write a book, the smart thing would to do, is advertise it - not everyone uses Facebook to do that. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 06:12, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

It may be original research, but we don't want to publishing incorrect facts. There's two sources on the book, one's a video, I can't watch that, but the article states "He released a book". It doesn't imply that he wrote it - all that's on there is that it's "Zyzz's Bodybuilding Bible", I don't see him as the author anywhere. Furthermore, I haven't seen this book for sale anywhere, was it actually "published" by a publishing house, or did someone just print it out and send it to people? The website you've mentioned has a superimposed picture on a book - I'm sceptical this is a book in any sense.

MelbourneStar, how about you think about other ways of writing this sentence so that it reflects the facts that we have at hand, perhaps on 17 May 2011, Zyzz's Bodybuilding Bible was released, based on a compilation of bodybuilding knowledge he acquired over the four years of training. That appears to be factual and I hope would be agreeable to all parties. Worm^TT(talk) 08:48, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed! - part of what I've been saying, is not to comment it out - it still is a book. Thank you for your view, I think what you've re-written it as, is appropriate, -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 10:43, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Cause of death

The article reads "An autopsy revealed a previously undiagnosed congenital heart defect.". This is actually an elaboration by her mother, as reported on http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/bodybuilder-aziz-zyzz-shavershian-killed-by-heart-defect/story-e6freuzi-1226112713390. The death report (which can be seen here: http://forum.teretana.net/viewtopic.php?p=675147&sid=1e449af504b26c8fbd7b369a97bd2b92) reads: "An autopsy was performed by the Forencisc Department of __ and cause of death was cardiomegaly (enlarged heart) and sudden cardiopulmnary failure". This is not a minor point, as cardiomegaly can be brought on by non-congenital causes, including anabolics/steroids abuse. I also find significant that he died during a sauna. can this be reported please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.114.55.227 (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

A forum is not a reliable source and therefore cannot be used. Here are a few of the sauna-death reports: [1] [2] [3] -- MST☆R ^{(Merry Christmas!)} 05:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I understand a forum is unreliable. What I wished to point to is the scan of the death certificate, which is linked in there, together with a transcription. I also understand that neither Thai nor Australian law release death certificates as public documents, so this is "smuggled" and untestable evidence. However, this makes the journalists' statements on the matter unreliable as well, since thay coudn't see any certificate. In fact, many (like [2] linked by you) have the tactfulness of writing "His mother said he had an undiagnosed heart condition" . I think Wikipedia should do the same, and include the 'congenital heart defect' into the 'His family stated' clause. As it is now, the article is not neutral, by stating as a fact what is just an alleged fact.37.183.14.150 (talk) 21:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying; however, when a site like the one in question is unreliable, we can't use it, nor the certificate it links to - because anyone in this day and age can cook up that death certificate, and post it up on the Internet. Those sources, are as good as gossip or rumours' sites.

That being said, when its reliable sources - at Wikipedia we aren't in any position to 'critic' the journalists' statements and how they find their facts. It's there job to report something - and if they get something wrong, it's their job on the line. We don't know how they get their facts. But I'm sure they didn't go look for facts in a forum.

A verifiable source is needed to dispute the multiple secondary reliable sources. -- MST☆R ^{(Merry Christmas!)} 22:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I see the point now. Thanks for explaining.37.183.14.150 (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 07:02, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

---

Aziz Shavershian → Death of Aziz Shavershian – As I had argued in the AFDs I started last year, the bulk of the coverage on this person regards his death. It cannot be reliably sourced that he was notable in life, when all we know about him in reliable sources comes from his death. Per WP:BIO, "If, however, there is only enough information about one notable event related to the person, then the article should be titled specifically about that event". —Ryulong (琉竜) 22:22, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. From reading the article, the only reason the death was notable was that this person was well known while living. Otherwise there would have been little to no coverage. Apteva (talk) 00:54, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  There are I think 2 reliable sources concerning this person from when he was alive. His notability was conferred upon him only after his untimely death.—Ryulong (琉竜) 08:07, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - To concur with Apteva, and previous AfD arguments - people die all the time, and you don't see articles created on them. Had Shavershian been non-notable, at the time, the media wouldn't have reported on his death, considering many people die overseas. But the fact that they did, and they even went on to detail his notability, shows that Shavershian as a person is notable - not just his death. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 09:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  Yet there are barely any sources about this man when he was alive. Just everyone mourning him.—Ryulong (琉竜) 10:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  This is clearly old territory for the both of us, so I'll just mention that I don't believe Shavershian's death is more notable than the person. Whilst a majority of sources were created post-death, they detail more on pre-death (his life; his notability etc.). Now, I don't know if the News is going by the notion of "You never know what you have until you lose it" (so therefore talk heaps about it [Shavershian] over eighteen months) - but what I do know, is that it's quite rather silly to assume that the News have been writing all these stories about Shavershian's life only for one to cherry-pick the idea that the news' contention is: "Shavershian had a non-notable life, and most importantly he's dead." —MelbourneStar☆^talk 11:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  His notability in life was tenuous at best, unless you went to BodyBuilding.com or 4chan's /fit/ board. It's generally clear that the dearth of sources out there are about his death, and all we know about his life stems from these many obituaries written about him. He had no impact outside of his fan following, but apparently that's enough for Wikipedia. It's hard for me to fathom why he got so much coverage after his death, but that's all the coverage we have. Again, I'm going to point out that the only references used on this page that are not news about his death are his formspring posts and his being an allegory for steroid abuse.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  Lastly I'll clarify the obvious: there's a big difference between an 'obituary' and actual reports from some of Australia's biggest media outlets. "His notability in life was tenuous at best" - one can have an opinion; my opinion is the polar opposite, as corroborated by nearly 30 news outlet sources that delve into his notability a lot more than they do on his death. Now, you can argue the same or similar points, over and over, but I won't be for an obvious reason. Would renaming this article to Death and life of Aziz Shavershian according to the Media satisfy you? rhetorical question. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 11:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  If it did I would have suggested that as the title.—Ryulong (琉竜) 12:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Weight

Did Zyzz really weigh 100kg? Where is that information from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.211.118.13 (talk) 05:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 October 2013

Please delete where it states "where he achieved Dux of the college". I have an extremely reliable source (i.e the 2006 College Year Book at Marist College Eastwood) where it clearly states that Napol Dhungsirisetagun is the College dux. In the same book there is Aziz Shavershian's Year 12 photo. It is completely false that Aziz Shavershian was college dux. 124.170.225.175 (talk) 09:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Not done: the claim is reliably sourced from the Daily Telegraph of Australia. The college yearbook for one year does not prove that he never achieved it. --Stfg (talk) 10:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic?

“His family background was described as "a mix of Kurdish, Armenian, and Persian."[15] Zyzz ethnicly a mix of Kurdish, Armenian, and Persian?

But he say hi was only Kurdish and not Armenian, Persian or russian......

Q:What Nash are you? Azyzz: Kurdish. The sexier version of arabs. most have light skin and green eyes, so im alot darker than what is typical of my nationality.

http://www.formspring.me/azyzz/q/174133848550969262

http://i.imgur.com/sweCS.jpg

http://www.formspring.me/azyzz

this is the official formspring from Aziz Shavershian

78.34.24.211 (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yazidi Kurd

I'll be removing the ethnicity sentence from the article, as a verifiable source isnt cited. Thanks, —MelbourneStar☆^talk 23:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm 100% sure that he was of Yazidi extraction but neither he nor his brother were open about it. Behemoth (talk) 06:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Zyzz family is orginally yazidi here is a pic of chestbrah with melek taus in the background picture: http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p470648/image.jpg And why is there at Nationality australian?Should be Kurdish because its his real ethnic and he wasnt australian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pusher99 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree. And judging by his Armenian suffixed surname (ian), it would appear that he is from the sizeable Yazidis in Armenia - many of whom moved to Russia anyway. The suffixed surname of ian is not common among Kurds, and would seem more likely among Kurds residing in Armenia - who are overwhelmingly Yazidi. Plus, the proof of chestbrah with melek taus in the background picture clearly points to nothing other than a Yazidi Kurdish background. I hope this proof can actually be reflected in the article.58.106.234.168 (talk) 07:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Except that he was Kurdish. His Formspring was wrong.2600:100C:A201:825A:6C7F:C954:FD18:109 (talk) 08:01, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Steroids

There's now evidence that he did use steroids, so perhaps that section should be updated.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w5XWKOpBe4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.105.218 (talk) 11:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated third-party claims, not evidence. The reliable sources used in the article to corroborate said section are secondary sources - and more so, of Shavershian himself explicitly denying steroid usage. If that video was Aziz explicitly admitting to steroid abuse in a non-trolling manner, and not apparantly his brother, that's a different story. But it's his brother, and that's a third party claim completely unverifiable. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 11:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

But why can't we say that his brother alleges it? That is WP:NPOV and we don't claim we know that he has used steroids because he has said so himself. (I'm not the IP editor by the way) 09I500 (talk) 17:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no proof though. Otherwise any tom, dick or larry can claim X did this – without their being any opposing response about said allegation because X is dead. Shavershian denied his involvement, why is one suggesting to take the supposed word of his brother - over the subject of the article? —MelbourneStar☆^talk 02:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

For the same reason that the article mentions that "According to The Sydney Morning Herald, the company which employed Aziz as a stripper maintained that he was a lovely guy, "aside from the steroids"." 09I500 (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the striking difference: one source is from a credible newspaper, the other is a non-official YouTube channel, that hasn't been verified as Said's account - and more so, even if it had been, it's a primary source. Said can say Aziz did x, y and z. But it's not significant - otherwise it would have been reported on. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 14:59, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Certainly you mean the other way around? -> "It wasn't reported on thus it's not significant." Steroids are a common theme in articles about Shavershian so I would say it's significant whether he used them or not. Also, an explanation for lack of reporting could be that the hype after his death has died down, so it's not "news" anymore. 09I500 (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's a theme, and hence why there's already a section dedicated to it. And one could believe that theory, but the only thing that doesn't support that theory, is the fact articles were still being written with in regards to Shavershian well after his death - yet this is ignored.

Bottom line is, that YouTube video is unverifiable and therefore unreliable. Perhaps if Said said this in a newspaper and not in a YouTube video (was it even really him?) then that's a different story. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 01:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Russia?

It says he was born in Russia in 1989. But during that time wasn't it still known politically as the Soviet Union? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.205.103.239 (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2016

A word is missing in a sentence in the "Death" section. Change "His family and friends placed news of his death on ." to "His family and friends placed news of his death on Facebook." Caillois (talk) 10:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Caillois: — No word is missing from the sentence – it already says: "His family and friends placed news of his death on Facebook." Best, —MelbourneStar☆^talk 10:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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first sentence

Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian[3] (Russian: Азиз Серге́евич Шавершян; 24 March 1989 – 5 August 2011),[4] better known by his Internet handle Zyzz,[5][6] was a Russian-born Australian bodybuilder, dancer,[7][8] personal trainer, model, and part-time stripper.

I think the first sentence is a bit misleading because it makes you think he was Russian or Australian. I think it should be:

Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian[3] (Russian: Азиз Серге́евич Шавершян; 24 March 1989 – 5 August 2011),[4] better known by his Internet handle Zyzz,[5][6] was a Kurdish bodybuilder, dancer,[7][8] personal trainer, model, and part-time stripper, who was born in Russia and lived in Australia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pusher99 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

@Pusher99: If you're born in a country (Russia) and you move to another country wherein you become a citizen (Australia): you are Russian-Australian, or more specifically: Russian-born Australian. There's nothing misleading about that. Regards, —MelbourneStar☆^talk 02:10, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

@MelbourneStar Yes on your passport you are Australian or Russian but he wasn't ethnic / by blood Australian or Russian that's why i thought it would be better the other way. Also lot of people falsely think he was ethnic Russian, Australian, Armenian or Persian. His parents are Kurds from Armenia. You could also add that to the Biography Part and also they were orginally Yazidi by religion and converted to Christianity later. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pusher99 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

The subject was born in the Soviet Union (Russia), and lived in Australia – his ancestry is no real concern in the lead of the article, as per MOS:OPENPARA. For example, if he was born in Australia but his parents born in Russia, we would simply write "... was an Australian bodybuilder" (note "Russian" is not included). What is determined to be important is where the subject was born and lived -- otherwise, where would be draw the line? what about his grandparents? great-grandparents? cousins? and so on. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 02:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2016

"He also had a clothing line,[24] and Zyzz's Bodybuilding Bible was released on 17 May 2011, based on a compilation of bodybuilding knowledge he had acquired over his four years of training."

http://aestheticrevolution.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Zyzzs-Bodybuilding-Bible.pdf - direct link to the popular zyzz bible (free)

MattJacobsen (talk) 12:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Andy W. (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

"RUSSIAN"

Shavershian is neither RUSSIAN by the name or by his complexion. Zyzz was not Russian. Probably Armenian --KpoT (talk) 18:41, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@Mizanthrop: The Sydney Morning Herald, The Daily Telegraph, The Sun – just to name a few – disagree with your notion. Each reference Shavershian's birth in Russia. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:14, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Teh Sun is the only one who calls Zyzz "Russian" [Russian-Australian] and is plain wrong. The other sources only say "Russian-born", which means born in Russia.

It's like an African who was born in Germany. He is not real ethnic German.

Europe is different. It's not the New World that is America, Australia, and policies should be according.

Race is a social construct. Well so is culture. Is their culture irrelevant? This means everything means nothing?--KpoT (talk) 23:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Russia is where the individual was born, hence the "Russian-Australian". Would you prefer Russian-born Australian? either way, Russia being the subject's birthplace is pertinent to the biography. Nevertheless: you are yet to provide any reliable sources which claim Shavershian is either not Russian, or his background is X, Y or Z. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:37, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

There's a big missing term to denote Russians. Real Russians are Русские. Others - the Inhabitants of Russia of any ethnicity - Россияне. Someone from Nigeria can be Russian in the sense of Россиянин, but never ethnic, real Russian - Русский. This difference is obviously extremely important, but it is not translatable into separate English words. Both people are falsely called Russian. Only one is Russian. The other - Inhabitant of Russia. Same as a Pakistani-English is not a true ethnic Englishman. An African-French is not a true ethnic Frenchman. Русский vs Россиянин. Zyzz was certainly a Россиянин, but NEVER a Русский.

P.S.

Yes, Pushkin was an descendant of Africans. But he was many generations removed from his African ancestors and was predominantly ethnic Russian by blood.--KpoT (talk) 14:25, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm sort of seeing what you're saying... but at the same time I'm not. Where are the sources that confirm he was not Russian but rather 'X, Y or Z'? because I've provided reliable sources that he was in fact Russian, yet you have not?

We cannot remove sourced content and add original research in its place. You could be entirely correct, and still we would not be able to change the content to reflect your comments, per policy which determines that we go for verifiability -- over the truth. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:02, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

As i just said above - none of your sources claim Zyzz was Russian. Two call him Russia-born - this means anyone born in Russia, but not necessarily Russian. Think French-born arab. Your other source, The Sun, calls him Russian-Australian. And this is wrong. But they are a tabloid--KpoT (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

We can clarify it to it's already been clarified to "Russian-born", so what's the problem now?

The sources provided are verifiable. We don't rely upon the word of editors on Wikipedia – they're not published reliable sources. Multiple news outlets, as provided, state that the subject was born in Russia. I'll change the lead to reflect "Russian-born Australian". Furthermore, the reliability of tabloid journalism is not an issue here; tabloid news falls under the umbrella of WP:NEWSORG – should you believe Wikipedia ought not to use tabloids in any of it's 5 million articles, feel free to bring about a discussion there. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Also, his very name AZIZ SHAVERSHIAN (and his brother's name is Saïd Shavershian), is as Russian as a Jean-Mamadou Abdesselam is French.--KpoT (talk) 04:54, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

That's nice: you've provided no sources to counter Shavershian being Russian or Russian born (per sources provided), so consider this discussion moot. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 06:38, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

@MelbourneStar like you see people still don't know his ethnicy that's why i told you to change the first sentence :P @KpoT seems like you have no clue about zyzz because he said very often he is kurdish from armenia and born in russia (zyzz born in russia, parents born in Armenia, but neither russians or armenians but kurds) zyzz said this on his formspring very often, also chestbrah did. so should say something like "Shavershian was an Russian-born Australian, ethnic Kurdish bodybuilder... Or the first sentence could stay and the second one could be like "Shavershian was an ethnic Kurd from Armenia." just to make this whole discussion clear

His nationality was Russian-Australian because he was born there. He was Kurdish, most likely from around Armenia.2600:100C:A201:825A:6C7F:C954:FD18:109 (talk) 08:01, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2017

Reiids (talk) 19:06, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 20:32, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2017

Please change "Shavershian suffered a heart attack in a sauna, while on holiday in Pattaya". to "Shavershian suffered a heart attack in a massage parlour, while on holiday in Pattaya". Because the original entry information is false, he did not die in a sauna. Reiids (talk) 16:25, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

source = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnVlQfpFl-A&t=284s At 4:40 in the video, his brother, Said Shavershian, tells all of the details here. This is the only reliable source available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reiids (talk • contribs) 17:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2017

Adding Russian SFSR to place of birth Russian SFSR 81.140.215.113 (talk) 13:05, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It already says "Moscow, Soviet Union" Stickee (talk) 01:27, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2018

some fresh zizzz 27.121.91.34 (talk) 01:35, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — IVORK _Discuss 02:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

The source for his weight is no longer available, any sources seen put him at under 200.

Hard to find accurate sources for these things, I know, but he was most definitely not almost as heavy as Arnold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.238.75 (talk) 03:48, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

not a bodybuilder

Zyzz was lean but was never an actual bodybuilder, the article states this however he never activly partook in bodybuilding, it should be changed to fitness or weightlifter as these are the correct terms for what he did, bodybuilding involves competing and a lot more aspects than simply being lean — Preceding unsigned comment added by John DDoe (talk • contribs) 20:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the above "bodybuilding" comment. That is a term from the beginning of the twentieth century from the "physical culture" movement. That was about "building up your body" and a form of hygiene. Bodybuilding started as physical hygiene movement, like a full body version of brushing your teeth. It then morphed into some kind of sport, but the sport was not the origin of the word, but the reverse. 2601:49:4300:14B0:AC1F:5D5C:7420:27BF (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)TheAdlerian2601:49:4300:14B0:AC1F:5D5C:7420:27BF (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

College Dux

Despite the three sources, Aziz was not Dux of the college (though he was first in the grade in year 9 I believe). In fact, he wasn't in the top five aggregates either. I went to high school with him, can provide proof if requested. Flamedex (talk) 01:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

>source: trust me bro Somers-all-the-time (talk) 15:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

Updated view count on the YouTube video "Zyzz- The Legacy" is 15mil as of February 28, 2022. Article currently lists it as 14.5mil in November 2021. 2601:249:C00:AEE0:6544:A3EE:99A8:A0D4 (talk) 03:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:44, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2022

He was kurdish. 84.215.54.77 (talk) 14:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Which is mentioned. Semsûrî (talk) 14:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Biography

Request to include a sentence clarifying his parents are from Armenia, but ethnic Kurds. People may be confused since both his parents have Armenian surnames. Source 1: https://www.facebook.com/Zyzzthetics/posts/i-get-asked-alot-from-where-i-am-my-parents-were-born-in-armenia-and-speak-it-fl/261678397293491/ Source 2: https://www.tiktok.com/@chestbrahofficial/video/7050707473199631618 Christian91702 (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

It is already mentioned under 'biography' that he's an ethnic Kurd. Also, those are far from reliable per Wikipedia:RS. Semsûrî (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2022

"Shavershian, an ethnic Kurd[11]"

The links for reference 11 are defunct, please substantiate the above line with the following link instead: https://www.tiktok.com/@chestbrahofficial/video/7050707473199631618 14.2.23.2 (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 03:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

https://lindyhealth.com/chestbrah-said-sergeyevich/ 2601:281:8300:2000:D4CF:3240:1D6C:6A45 (talk) 21:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2022

There is a more updated profile on Zyzz's brother.

I believe this citation: https://lindyhealth.com/chestbrah-said-sergeyevich/

Would fit well here:

He had one older brother, Said Shavershian, who is also known by the screen name "Chestbrah" 2601:281:8300:2000:D4CF:3240:1D6C:6A45 (talk) 21:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Not a reliable source. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)