Talk:Yasuke/Archive 6

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New Japanese Source

This interview [1] has a title section that reads 「伝説の侍」に非ず, or "Not a 'Legendary Samurai'", in which Goza is quoted as saying 「また、侍だったとしても『形の上では』ということもあります。例えば江戸時代、相撲好きの大名にはお抱えの力士がいた。形式的には家臣、侍として召し抱えて帯刀を許可していましたが、たとえ戦（いくさ）が起きたとしても、お抱え力士が戦場で戦うようなことはもちろん、想定されていませんでした」, or Moreover, even if he was a samurai, it could be a 'formality,' he said. In the Edo period, for example, a daimyo (feudal lord) who was fond of sumo had a stable of wrestlers. Officially, they were treated as vassals or samurai and permitted to wear swords, however, even if war broke out, it was not expected that the feudal lords would allow such wrestlers to fight on the battlefield.

Brocade River Poems 04:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Another part of the interview reads 「敵を次から次へと斬り倒す、欧米の人がイメージする『サムライ・ウォリアー』のような存在ではなかったはずで、〝伝説の侍〟といった扱われ方には違和感を覚えます。戦ったとしても、部下を指揮するようなことはなく、一戦闘員として働いたんだと思います」 which perhaps represents a more staunch denial from Goza, which is I don't think he was the 'Samurai Warrior' that Westerners imagine him to be, slaying one enemy after another, and I feel uncomfortable with the characterization of him as a 'legendary samurai'. I believe that even if he did fight, he did not lead others, but served as a fighter. and 信長のボディーガード兼芸人というのが実態だったのではないかと思います, which amounts to I suspect that the truth of the matter is that he was Nobunaga's bodyguard and entertainer.

The article has a second part here, of Thomas Lockley's book, Goza writes 「歴史学の研究者というのは、研究する対象と一定の距離感を持つ必要があって、信長を研究していて『信長すごい』ではやはりダメで、信長の限界というものもあったんじゃないか、という引いた目で見る必要があるわけです。坂本龍馬だってそうですね。龍馬の限界や問題点というものも見て研究しないといけない。思い入れが強くなりすぎ、研究対象と一体化して、『全てを肯定していこう』という感じになってしまうと、歴史学の研究にはならなくなってしまいます。この著書を読むと、その距離感を取れていないという印象を持ちました」 or translated Researchers in the field of history need to have a certain sense of detachment from their research subjects, so it is not good to just say "Nobunaga is amazing" when you are studying Nobunaga, but rather it is necessary to look at Nobunaga from a detached perspective, as if there were some limitations to his achievements. It is the same with Ryoma Sakamoto. Ryoma's limitations and problems must also be looked at and studied. If you become too attached to the subject, if you become one with the subject, if your attitude is, "Let's affirm everything," then you will not be able to do historical research at all. This book gives me the impression that the author has not achieved that sense of distance. Brocade River Poems 04:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

This is a good find, thanks for sharing it. As you say, I think this interview is more clear than the earlier article by Goza, and should settle what he meant by that last line.

>The article has a second part here, of Thomas Lockley's book

It is interesting to note that the book he's referring to here is 信長と弥助　本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍, not African Samurai. According to Lockley, the Japanese book was meant to be the more academic of the two. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 05:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

We should really change the lead to note that him serving as a samurai is in dispute, or attribute it to Lockley, with a note of a dispute by Japanese sources. DarmaniLink (talk) 08:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Attributing it to Lockley would probably not be the best course of action since the Lopez-Vera source came to the same conclusion about Yasuke being a samurai, and the 2020 Lopez-Vera book in English is a translation of the original book that was published in 2016 in Spanish. Likewise, Professor Yu Hirayama's tweet has also made the news. It is also worth noting that Goza doesn't outright claim or state that Yasuke wasn't a samurai. He says he wasn't the legendary samurai that westerners might be imagining before stating definitively that he believed Yasuke was Nobunaga's bodyguard as well as noting that sometimes people were given samurai status as a formality and that that was likely the case with Yasuke. My key takeaways from Goza's interview are as follows:

• Goza's interview lends to the idea that Samurai status wasn't completely hereditary since Goza says in the Edo Period Daimyo would make their favorite sumo wrestlers samurai
• Samurai seemed to be divided into two cases, those who were actually members of the warrior caste, and those who were made samurai as a sort of gift from the Daimyo. That it specifically was applied to entertainers calls to mind the contemporary habit of 'knighting' actors and other such entertainers
• Goza doesn't definitively state that Yasuke wasn't a samurai, but that Yasuke wasn't the samurai warrior that westerners are imagining him to be. If Yasuke fought, he likely did so as a soldier. Goza believes the more likely scenario is that Yasuke was Nobunaga's bodyguard and someone who entertained Nobunaga. If Nobunaga did make Yasuke a Samurai, it was in the same way that sumo wrestlers were conferred samurai status even though they weren't actually expected to carry out military duties or go fight in war.

All told, I think Goza's interview is helpful in defining what it meant to be a samurai in the Sengoku period, and what it most likely meant if the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is correct in the treatment that Yasuke received. Goza does mention the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript again in his interview, and he does mention since the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is the only version of the Shinchokoki that has the mention of the sword, the house, and the stipend that one cannot dismiss the possibility that it was something added afterward in the copying process. Regardless, assuming the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is accurate, Goza's belief is that Yasuke's status as a samurai was, essentially, just for show or a formality. Since the Ietada Diary also mentions Yasuke receiving a stipend, it does seem to be the more likely case that Yasuke was a bodyguard and someone who entertained Nobunaga, so Nobunaga gave him the formality of being a samurai. Brocade River Poems 09:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I am all about including Goza's input into the article, but I don't think your addition is too thoughtful, at least you should not just present Goza's opinion in the lead without elaborating in the main article. I think several existing sentences should be revised as well, for example, the "samurai" in who served as a samurai to the Japanese daimyō Oda Nobunaga for a period of 15 months should be reverted to just "retainer", as there is already explanation about how Yasuke qualified as a samurai under Nobunaga in the same lead. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 10:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think several existing sentences should be revised as well, for example, the "samurai" in who served as a samurai to the Japanese daimyō Oda Nobunaga for a period of 15 months should be reverted to just "retainer"

I disagree. I think this would go against the spirit of the RfC consensus. Supplementary context is just that, supplementary. Symphony Regalia (talk) 00:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the previous RfC established that Yasuke was qualified as a samurai per sources, but I am not sure if it determined how much weight we should put on such claim, especially in the lead. I also don't think it's fair to reduce Goza's opinion into an explanatory footnotes for Assassin's Creed Shadows, because it was clearly not just for criticizing Ubisoft's handling of Yasuke, but also Lockley's flawed study of Yasuke. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 01:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Referring to Yasuke as a "retainer" in the opening line of the lede, which should not be done as we've already had a RfC on this, is a different matter to how much weight should be given to a particular minority view. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the popular culture section, but it's a minority view that doesn't change the status quo and he doesn't have a strong opinion in either direction. He actually concedes that he believes Yasuke may have been a samurai.

2. Lockley's study of Yasuke was not flawed and is supported by several peer-reviews. Symphony Regalia (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed does not mean Lockley's study is flawless and unchallengeable, especially by other qualified historians. Also please explain how addressing Yasuke a "retainer" in the lede is against the previous rfc. All I see is that you don't want to present the idea that Yasuke could be a lesser-samurai or samurai-only-in-name, even blatantly using an essay (CSECTION, non policy/guideline) to dismiss Goza's opinion, reducing it into an unimportant footnote. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 22:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Personal interpretations of what peer-reviewed means aren't relevant here. Peer-reviewed works clearly meet our WP:RS standards. And referring to Yasuke as a retainer in the lede was the status quo before the RfC. What is your reasoning for wanting to do so? In the RfC there was overwhelming consensus that Yasuke being a samurai is the majority view in reliable sources. Naturally this should be given due weight in the lede. Symphony Regalia (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In the last paragraph of the lede, it already explains why Yasuke qualified as a samurai, so there is no need to repeat that same information in the first paragraph. Samurai is even linked twice in the lede which is overlinked. Ask anyone who is not family with Japanese history, they definitely would not know that a samurai, a loanword, was naturally a retainer of their master. Avoiding to address Yasuke as an Oda retainer is against what is recommended by WP:ONEDOWN. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

No. The last paragraph is a recent addition to the lede (and can easily be placed elsewhere), and there is no arbitrary maximum of "1" on how many times Yasuke can be referred to as a samurai. Explicitly changing the first mention of "samurai" to "retainer", which is what the RfC was considering as the alternative but decided against, indeed contradicts the spirit of the RfC consensus in a very obvious way. Per WP:NPOV the lede must follow due weight.

Ask anyone who is not family with Japanese history, they definitely would not know that a samurai, a loanword, was naturally a retainer of their master.

Not necessarily, and these details are all available in the samurai article for anyone who wants them. It's also worth noting that many reputable dictionaries translate "家臣" as "vassal" as well. In any case these sort of specifics and details can easily be explained in the "life in Japan" section in their natural context with appropriate weight. Symphony Regalia (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This is ludicrous. Yasuke is not referred to as either retainer or vassal in the lede or the main article. Some sources cited in the article do use "retainer", besides "samurai", to refer Yasuke, but god forbidden we ever call him anything but samurai to not tarnish his legendary status. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you refrained from saying things like Lockley´s work isn’t flawed, especially when it isn’t relevant. The RfC didn’t have an "overwhelming" consensus. Consensus means total agreement, as there were dissenters, using it in this case is hyperbole. Furthermore, you have stretched the spirit of the RfC to mean whatever you want, and revert things that did not touch it. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would be more helpful if those refrained from unilaterally asserting that it is. The RfC did indeed have an overwhelming consensus, it was something like 16-2 from uninvolved editors in favor (note: this is in terms of arguments, not votes). Consensus also does not require complete unanimity which is an incorrect interpretation. Lastly, on the contrary, editors overall have been lax with enforcing the RfC despite attempts by vandals to deface the article, attempts by editors to remove mentions of samurai while misusing the minor tag, and so on. Symphony Regalia (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this page about the use of title vs status. There was agreement to change to status, and you undid it, and then only after your revert was reverted, did you take part of the discussion. If there was any vandalism, I haven’t seen it. I purposefully made multiple edits so that if I made mistakes, they could be addressed individually. You undid them all indiscriminately. You don’t take part in any positive discussion, but rather just tell people what they can’t do. I am trying to work with you here, why won’t you work with me? Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that the RfC does not mean that every reference to Yasuke must address him as samurai. But obviously only mentioning samurai once would not be in the spirit of the RfC, so some sort of balance should be found until we open a new RfC, which I still think we should wait a while for.

As an aside, this new interview is a great example of why we should wait a while. Had we opened a new RfC last week, there would a lot of debate about what Goza meant. Now his position seems a bit more clear. I think after a month or so we can take a look at seriously changing the language of the lede again (via an RfC). J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 02:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean once in the lead, or in the entire article? I think once in the lead is enough. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Saying a status is hereditary, doesn’t mean that it can’t be granted. All hereditary titles in the UK can be granted. Anthony Cummins has pointed out that servants were expected to fight and protect their lords, also a lot of samurai had non-military and military duties. This isn’t so different from Europe, where servants fought alongside their masters. Yasuke probably was more likely part of a large entourage. A mounted warrior was supposed to have 14 attendants with them in war, and in 1614 an army leader had a bodyguard of over 400 dismounted troops and 130 mounted. So even if the sumo wrestlers turned samurai weren’t soldiers, they were in the reserve. Similarly, some had fiefs to manage. I am not sure if sumo wrestlers were seen as the same as actors, but Yasuke was strong and preformed tricks. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Am I reading the translation wrong? Because Goza never claims that Yasuke wasn't a samurai. He just says he wasn't the type of samurai mythologized in pop culture that was in a bunch of battles and such. Which is something we already knew and wasn't in dispute. It looks like Goza was specifically commenting on the video game usage of Yasuke, which yeah, is a fictional depiction. That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the historical samurai position given to Yasuke that this article discusses. The interview linked doesn't seem to really add to the discussion of the particular topic in question. Silverseren^C 03:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

As I said, It is also worth noting that Goza doesn't outright claim or state that Yasuke wasn't a samurai. Rather, Goza contends that Yasuke wasn't a legendary samurai. Beyond that, Goza says that the basis for depicting Yasuke as a samurai comes from a passage that is only found in the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Nobunaga Chronicle, and that because it only appears on the Sonkeikaku Bunko version we cannot discount the possibility that the passage was added later during the copying process. Goza then goes on to suggest that if Yasuke was made a samurai, he was made such in-form only (which I tend to translate as in-name only), and points to an example of how in the Edo Period daimyo would often grant samurai status to wrestlers whom they favored. Said wrestlers would be on the payroll, be allowed to carry swords, and were officially considered to be vassals of the daimyo, but they weren't expected to actually perform the duties of a samurai (such as leading troops and going to war). Ultimately, Goza's addition to the conversation further demonstrates how becoming a samurai wasn't strictly hereditary if daimyo were conferring samurai status on their favorite sumo wrestlers for funsies. My addition to the article about the controversy was the article about Hirayama saying that Yasuke was a "samurai warrior", while Goza states that Yasuke wasn't a "samurai warrior", but was likely a bodyguard and entertainer for Oda Nobunaga who was made samurai in-name only. Both Hirayama and Goza say, to different degrees, that Yasuke could have been conferred samurai status, but the dispute is that Hirayama seems to argue that Yasuke was a full on proper samurai, while Goza's belief is that Yasuke's samurai status was 'just for show' basically. Brocade River Poems 04:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Is there any reason not to add a section going into more detail on the practical meaning of Yasuke as a Samurai? So far most of the disagreement amongst the sources has primarily been more centered on what kind of 'Samurai' Yasuke was rather than objecting to his being a Samurai - even if cautioning that it's primarily based in one primary source. We have the primary text white refers to him as a weapons bearer, we have two sources (Nobuo Ikeda and Thomas Lockley's peer reviewed work) referring to him as a '家臣' (High ranking vassal), Hirayama's explanation, and now Goza's explanation. I think it is clear that these sources do seem to be in dispute on what Yasuke's role amongst Nobunaga's retinue would have been and I think this is worth clarifying somewhere in the article. I think this would add the nuance that I believe many editors desire to see on the page. Even if it later comes to be shown that Yasuke's Samurai status is disputed by non-fringe sources, having this diversity of scholarly views on what his role would have been seems worth including to me. Relm (talk) 04:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I had created a section about the controversial status of Yasuke as a samurai in Japan, it got removed because I called it "Samurai controversy" with the removing editor citing WP:CSECTION as their justification. The contents of said section were shunted off into a footnote, and I do not have the energy or desire to argue about it, as it seems to me if the problem was the naming of the section, that renaming the section would have been a more proper solution. That said, some editors are very quick to revert or excise when they could otherwise fix the mistake. Nevermind the fact that WP:CSECTION says Sections or article titles should generally not include the word "controversies". Instead, titles should simply name the event, for example, "2009 boycott" or "Hunting incident". The word "controversy" should not appear in the title. but further states For a specific controversy that is broadly covered in reliable sources. Various positions, whether pro or contra, are given due weight as supported by the sources. The topic of the controversy is best named in the section title (when there are distinct groups of controversies, the section title can be "Controversies", with subsection titles indicating what these are about)(Emphasis my own) Which, given the widespread media attention about the controversy surrounding Yasuke being a samurai, you'd think it would be worth including as a section. Brocade River Poems 04:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Instead of titling the section "controversy", "Yasuke's social status in Japan" would be more appropriate. I am not sure why many editors here are so fixated on emphasizing Yasuke's samurai status. Even the latest edition of Britainnca's Yasuke article admits that Yasuke's samurai status has been disputed, after Lockley has been directly involved in its editing. Also @Symphony Regalia: why "samurai" and "retainer" are mutually exclusive is beyond my understanding. For example, in Hayashi Hidesada's article, he is described as both a samurai and a retainer of Nobunaga in the lede. My point is, there is no controversy to describe Yasuke as Oda's retainer, but the samurai status of Yasuke is a total can of worm, i.e. disputed and possibly not a standard samurai (not because of Yasuke's ethnicity) even by Sengoku period's standard. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, you don't need my or anyone else's permission to go ahead and do that. I (obviously) support the section, I even think referring to as a controversy is acceptable because WP:CSECTION is an essay, not policy. Just be aware that someone will probably end up reverting you. Like I said, it isn't worth my time to fight. Sweeping it away into a footnote, however, definitely feels like it runs afoul of WP:BALANCE to me. Brocade River Poems 05:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I hope you read the original Japanese interview. Goza's answer the question of "whether Yasuke was a samurai or not" was not based on how popular culture depicts Yasuke as a "samurai warrior". For that first question of the first part of the interview specifically[2], Goza stated that "the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of Shincho Koki could be tempered with during copying; Yasuke's samurai status was possibly a formality (ceremonial) only." In the second part of the interview[3], Goza shared his opinion on Lockley's study of Yasuke, expressing that he felt Lockley succumbed to confirmation bias. This again has nothing to do with the depiction of Yasuke in popular culture. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 04:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not believe that Goza was suggesting the Sonkeikaku Bunko version was "tempered". Specifically, Goza's full statement is that among the dozens of manuscripts of the Nobunaga Koki, this is the only one that includes this biography[About Yasuke receiving a sword, house and stipend], and we cannot deny the possibility that it was added later when the manuscript was transcribed. Goza later states even if he was a samurai, it might have been in-form only. Goza doesn't make a definitive statement, he couches his arguments in "possibilities", which is reasonable. He cannot conclude definitively that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript was modified. Goza is speaking about popular culture later, though. Specifically, the interview question he was asked was 『シャドウズ』の弥助は、立派な甲冑を身に付けて登場します。実際にはどのような立場にいたと考えられますか In "Shadows," Yasuke appears wearing magnificent armor. What position do you think he actually held? and then Goza responds with 「敵を次から次へと斬り倒す、欧米の人がイメージする『サムライ・ウォリアー』のような存在ではなかったはずで、〝伝説の侍〟といった扱われ方には違和感を覚えます。戦ったとしても、部下を指揮するようなことはなく、一戦闘員として働いたんだと思います」 I don't think he was the 'Samurai Warrior' that Westerners imagine him to be, slaying one enemy after another, and I feel uncomfortable with the characterization of him as a 'legendary samurai' and also states in response to what Yasuke's position actually was that Yasuke was likely a bodyguard and an entertainer for Oda Nobunaga.

The statement he specifically uses is サムライ・ウォリアー for samurai warrior. He is directly speaking about Yasuke's depiction in Assassin's Creed Shadows when he says I don't think he was the 'Samurai Warrior' that Westerners imagine him to be. A lot of the questions the interviewer asks Goza after 弥助とは、どのような人物だったのでしょう。ＳＮＳでは、侍だったかどうかが論争になりました are explicitly about popular culture, specifically Assassin's Creed Shadows. Since he is being asked about a video game, it is fair to say that Goza's statements are referring to depictions of Yasuke in popular culture. Shōgun (2024 TV series) even gets cited as a contrasting example to Assassin's Creed Shadows. Brocade River Poems 05:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Goza's opinion on Shincho Koki, I agree with you. Still, I believe the parts of his opinions I brought up should not be diminished or degraded by the fact that this interview was conducted against the backdrop of the Assassin's Creed Shadows controversy. His answers were based on actual studies of historical documents, not modern fiction. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 06:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying they should be diminished, I was just pointing out that it's incorrect to say that Goza isn't talking about popular culture when the majority of part one of the interview was him talking about popular culture depictions. Outside of the area you highlight, he was answering questions about popular culture depictions. Basically, the section where Goza is answering the question 弥助とは、どのような人物だったのでしょう。ＳＮＳでは、侍だったかどうかが論争になりました isn't about popular culture, but the rest of the interview is in relation to popular culture. So saying He just says he wasn't the type of samurai mythologized in pop culture that was in a bunch of battles and such isn't technically incorrect, because that's more or less what Goza is saying with 敵を次から次へと斬り倒す、欧米の人がイメージする『サムライ・ウォリアー』のような存在ではなかったはずで、〝伝説の侍〟といった扱われ方には違和感を覚えます。, which I'm not going to translate again verbatim but essentially he's saying that Yasuke wasn't the samurai warrior (in Katakana) that westerner's imagine him, that he wasn't cutting down enemy after enemy, and that Goza feels uncomfortable with Yasuke's portrayal as a legendary samurai(伝説の侍).

Another way for me to word it is that 「弥助に関する史料は、残されているものが少ないので、何とも言いがたい部分はあるんです。人物史が歴史学の本流ではないこともあり、研究対象にされてこなかったわけです。「信長の一代記『信長公記』の伝本の一つ、尊経閣文庫所蔵『信長記』十五冊本には、信長が弥助に刀と屋敷を与えたという記述があり、侍として処遇したことを示しています。ただ、これは何十とある信長公記の写本のうち、この伝本にしか出てこないもので、後世、書写の際に付け加えられた可能性は否定できません」 「また、侍だったとしても『形の上では』ということもあります。例えば江戸時代、相撲好きの大名にはお抱えの力士がいた。形式的には家臣、侍として召し抱えて帯刀を許可していましたが、たとえ戦（いくさ）が起きたとしても、お抱え力士が戦場で戦うようなことはもちろん、想定されていませんでした」 is Goza's commentary on the question about the historical nature of Yasuke. Particularly, he begins his statement with 弥助に関する史料は、残されているものが少ないので、何とも言いがたい部分はあるんです。, which I translate as Since there are few historical documents about Yasuke that exist, it's hard to say with certainty what is true. And the rest is as we already discussed, Goza goes into how the Sonkeikaku Bunko version might have been modified in transcription, and that if Yasuke had been afforded samurai status, it was likely in-form only, Goza explains about the wrestlers being made samurai in the Edo period, and how they were effectively vassals with a stipend and the right to carry swords but that they weren't expected to perform the duties of a samurai i.e, going to war.

Aside from that paragraph, though, Goza is answering questions about Yasuke's depiction in popular media. Brocade River Poems 08:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

>Am I reading the translation wrong? Because Goza never claims that Yasuke wasn't a samurai

I did not say that he did in this article. In the other article he says we should be cautious in saying he was a samurai. So in neither article does he say that he was not a samurai.

>The interview linked doesn't seem to really add to the discussion of the particular topic in question.

The interview also touches on the veracity of 信長と弥助　本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍, which is not something that necessarily needs to go into the article but may be relevant in a future RfC. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 06:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Since the opening sentence says "Samurai," I'd like to make a brief comment. From a common Japanese perspective, the opening statement that Yasuke was a "samurai" seems a bit exaggerated and not very appropriate. A "samurai" is a warrior who is willing to commit seppuku if necessary, and a mere retainer is not a "samurai." There are no documents, at least not in Japan, that state that Yasuke had such Japanese ways. It's fine to treat him as a "samurai" in an interesting way in fiction or books that deal with novelties, but it's not accurate to "define" him as a "samurai" in an encyclopedia.--みしまるもも (talk) 03:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Why did you try to add "fiction" to the "In popular culture" section title? You seem like you're an experienced editor, you should know how Wikipedia articles are formatted at this point. Silverseren^C 03:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• I put it in the fiction category because it seemed strange to me to categorize the works of Endo Shusaku, a famous Japanese academic novelist, simply as "popular culture." And, since all the works written there are fiction, I don't think there's any particular problem with that.--みしまるもも (talk) 03:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• In Popular Culture means any usage in popular culture, whether fiction or non-fiction. It's about depictions and usage of a subject. Silverseren^C 03:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Thank you for your reply, Silverseren. At least in Japan, the literary works of writers such as Endo Shusaku, Mishima Yukio, and Kawabata Yasunari are not called "popular culture."

  みしまるもも (talk) 04:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Notably, the English Wikipedia is not written From a common Japanese perspective, so that is mostly unrelated to this article. A "samurai" is a warrior who is willing to commit seppuku if necessary, and a mere retainer is not a "samurai." And yet, there are plenty of samurai who, during the Sengoku period, did not. For instance, samurai who converted to Christianity would refuse to commit suicide because they believed it to be a sin. Konishi Yukinaga, for instance, famously refused to commit seppuku. The 47 Ronin, much later in history, all also refused to commit seppuku and instead pursued revenge. Also famously during the sengoku period Shimizu Muneharu was himself allowed to commit seppuku in exchange for the rest of the individuals inside his castle being spared. Also from the Sengoku period, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna made quite a career out of not killing himself. In fact Kamiizumi surrendered the castle without a fight, and joined Ujiyasu, Kamiizumi abandoned the Hōjō side, and sent messages to the Uesugi. He became one of Uesugi's generals, and helped the Uesugi drive out the Hōjō forces, Shingen invited him to join the Takeda side after Minowa Castle fell, what is clear is that Kamiizumi became a minor official to the Takeda clan. History is full of examples of samurai low and high in status who ran away from battles, surrendered, and lived to tell the tale. Likewise, most historical records demonstrate that instances of seppuku prior to the Edo period were forced or otherwise coerced. Brocade River Poems 04:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Hi, Brocade River Poems. Even if these examples exist, the essential question is whether there is any connection or commonality between their spirit, conviction, or determination and Yasuke's. Also, when one became a samurai, they would have been given a surname (名字, Myoji) by their lord, but Yasuke does not have a surname. If he had truly been recognized by Nobunaga as a samurai, he would have been given a surname like 三浦按針 (Miura Anjin, William Adams (samurai)). It would be interesting if Yasuke had actually become a samurai, but the reality is that there are no reliable, professional Japanese historical documents that state that Yasuke was a samurai.

みしまるもも (talk) 04:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC) add --みしまるもも (talk) 05:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, the essential question is whether there is any connection or commonality between their spirit, convicition, or determination and Yasuke's is irrelevant when thus far the only reliable source (that being Yuichi Goza) who has even slightly contended Yasuke's samurai status has also said that Daimyo gave their favorite wrestlers the status of samurai for funsies and that Nobunaga likely did the same to Yasuke if Yasuke was a samurai. Again, the common perception of samurai in Japan is wholly irrelevant, one cannot cite the common perception of the common Japanse citizen as a source. Also, since you mentioned Adams, I will note that Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn was only ever given the name Yayōsu in Japanese, so. Brocade River Poems 05:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

As far as I concern, not a single qualified Japanese historian has ever used the lack of myoji to contest or dismiss Yasuke's status as a samurai. Not even Daimon Watanabe. Some source like the one published on President.jp recognized such argument exists online, but it is not the argument promoted by any actual historian. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 07:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

YaYōsu was a dutch samurai who also didn't have a surname. 143.58.135.208 (talk) 09:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Samurai is a status in Japanese history and culture, so your comment that "the common perception of samurai in Japan is wholly irrelevant" is a blasphemous, belittling, or mocking statement against Japanese history no matter how you look at it. If Yasuke was a real samurai, there would be descriptions like those of Miura Anjin in specialized Japanese historical documents. To be honest, I was shocked at the low level of the English version, which confuses fiction and novels with historical detail and attempts to edit Wikipedia articles with a touch of fantasy. Again, if Yasuke had truly become a samurai, he would have been described as such in a proper professional Japanese historical text, like Miura Anjin. --みしまるもも (talk) 06:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  Samurai is a status in Japanese history and culture, so your comment that "the common perception of samurai in Japan is wholly irrelevant" is a blasphemous, belittling, or mocking statement against Japanese history no matter how you look at it No it isn't, it is a policy statement. The common perception of samurai in Japan is wholly irrelevant to the development of this article because it isn't something which can be cited in the article, as I have stated plainly. You have cherry picked my statement which was the common perception of samurai in Japan is wholly irrelevant, one cannot cite the common perception of the common Japanse citizen as a source. Wikipedia is built upon WP:RELIABLESOURCES. We cannot attribute a statement to "the perception of the common Japanese citizen". I would remind you of WP:NOTFORUM bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article with my added emphasis. Brocade River Poems 06:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• It's a shame that you can only respond in that way without making any reference to the point that "Yasuke doesn't have a family name." I've added to this article in the past, and I love the story of Yasuke, and I also love R&B and hip-hop. So I was interested in the idea that Yasuke might have been active in Japan during the Warring States period, and I wanted to know more about Yasuke, so I read a number of specialized books on Japanese history, but as a result, I found out that he wasn't particularly a samurai. Even though I know he wasn't a samurai, I still love Yasuke, who came to Japan and lived here, where he was loved by Nobunaga. So I don't really understand the intentions of those who have to make Yasuke into a "samurai" even at the expense of ignoring the richness of Japanese history. Please read more specialized Japanese literature. --みしまるもも (talk) 07:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  >I read a number of specialized books on Japanese history

  Do you mean books about Yasuke specifically or books about Japanese history and samurai in general? If the later, it can't be used on Wikipedia as a source about a specific subject unless a historian explicitly makes that connection. For example, your point about being given a surname is interesting, but it can't be cited in the article unless a historian explicitly makes that argument. I guess an exception would be if multiple Japanese historians say "all samurai must have surnames, otherwise they would never have been considered a samurai," but that does not seem to be the case. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 07:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Thans, J2UDY7r00CRjH. Yasuke is mentioned in only a few lines in historical documents about Nobunaga. There is no record that could define Yasuke as a samurai, and no Japanese historian defines Yasuke as a samurai. Nobunaga was alive in a time that was not so long ago, so if Yasuke was really a samurai, there should have been some records to that effect, but unfortunately there are none. Stories written by people other than professional historians that mix speculation and imagination are not "reliable sources," so if you refer to books by such people, you should mention the author's name and write something like, "According to XX, Yasuke can be interpreted as a samurai."

  みしまるもも (talk) 00:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  "Not so long ago"? Well, most people consider 1582 "a long ago". Everything happened before 1789 is a long ago.213.230.92.215 (talk) 03:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  • The time when Nobunaga lived was not that long ago when viewed from the perspective of the vast history of Japan. Sorry if that's not quite clear enough.

  みしまるもも (talk) 00:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yasuke is indeed defined as a samurai by Japanese historians (Yu Hirayama, Mihoko Oka), though it should be noted that the ethnicity of the historian is entirely irrelevant. Your surname argument is demonstrably false. Lastly, the majority view in reliable sources does not need attribution. Symphony Regalia (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Neither Yu Hirayama nor Oka Mihoko are historians with doctorates. Oka Mihoko is a person who makes the unfounded speculation that Yasuke's visual image was "close to the god Hachiman," which is questionable from the standpoint of reliability and therefore does not make her a reliable source in the Japanese wikipedia. In the Japanese wikipedia of the history section, no assertions or definitions are allowed unless the source is a properly academically recognized paper or book. In the English wikipedia, it may be acceptable to write in an "assertive" tone even when it includes speculation and imagination, but at least in the history section of the Japanese wikipedia, anyone who is unable to distinguish between such a fictional world and academic accuracy and continues to edit in an "assertive" tone is subject to violations. If you use such an unreliable source, you must preface it with an objective viewpoint such as "According to XX."

  みしまるもも (talk) 00:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is flying dangerously close to defamatory. Oka Mihoko does indeed have a doctorate, and Hirayama has a master's degree and has published extensively on the Sengoku period. I reiterate, once again, that you continue to fly dangerously close to WP:NATIONALISM by Manipulating or cherry picking what sources say for content to promote or spread a certain national or historical narrative as well as Focusing on the (perceived) ethnic background or identity of editors in talkpage discussions or other edits. Constantly asserting that the Japanese perspective is superior, or that the Japanese Wiki is somehow inherently superior is inappropriate. Likewise, I would remind you that you yourself on two separate occasions asserted that Yasuke was a samurai and submitted it to the article, here and here. Brocade River Poems 01:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Oka Mihoko has a PhD in Human and Environmental Studies ([4]). Hirayama Yu's only source is his self-proclaimed career history, and his doctoral thesis cannot be found on the doctoral thesis website. He may actually have a PhD, but it is unclear at this point. And please do not misrepresent and label me as saying that I am saying this or that about ethnicity, or that the Japanese perspective is superior. I was simply stating the fact that it is not a reliable source written by a real expert, and that the rules in the Japanese version of history are strict, so it is not allowed to edit vague things in a "definitive" tone. Therefore, since there is uncertainty as to whether Yasuke was a "samurai" (if that was clearly written in Japanese historical sources, the debate would not be so heated in the note), I am simply giving frank advice that if you write it like this, "According to XX etc., one interpretation is that Yasuke was a samurai," it would be a peaceful edit that everyone could agree on.

  みしまるもも (talk) 02:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  And 人間・環境学 includes 社会科学 and 人文科学, which I would remind you that history is a part of the humanities. You are tilting at windmills. Your frank advice continues to sidestep your own past actions, and likewise continues to misrepresent information and facts while trying to push your personal opinions as fact. Her dissertation is, in fact, on 近世初期の長崎とマカオ : 日本関係南欧史料の分析から which is Macao and Nagasaki During the Early Modern Period : An Overview of Japan-Related Historical Documents in South Europe. I.E, her dissertation is a history dissertation. Her field of research quite obviously had to do with history. I do not know if you are just hoping people will believe whatever you say because you are Japanese, but you have thus far provided no sources for anything you have said and continued to use this talkpage as a WP:SOAPBOX after you have been told multiple times to provide sources or to stop. Brocade River Poems 04:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  • A doctorate in "Human and Environmental studies" (人間・環境学) and a doctorate in "history" (歴史学) are different. Oka Mihoko's doctorate is not in "history". This is the same as having a doctorate in "literature" (文学) in the same "Humanities" (人文科学) as one who does not hold a doctorate in "history". And to assume that it is a "history" thesis just from the title, and to say that it is no different from a doctorate in history, sounds like a very strange fallacy. Whether she is an expert in "history" is not for you to decide, but for the Japanese academy to decide.

  みしまるもも (talk) 05:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  Which would be true if she had a doctorate in humanities, but she has a doctorate in an interdisciplinary field that includes history, and wrote her dissertation on historical documents specifically relating to Southern European interactions with Japan, making her a historian with a doctorate. Her very subject of research involves the Portuegese interaction with Japan, which means her research subject definitively includes documents about Yasuke. Your personal opinion on the matter here is irrelevant and you once again continue to ignore the fact that your history of editing this page involves you asserting that Yasuke was a samurai twice while you are painting academics who are doing so unreliable. Brocade River Poems 21:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hi, Brocade River Poems. Regardless of your interpretation of Oka Mihoko, it is a fact that she does not have a doctorate in "history," and I was simply stating that fact.

  When I edited this article in the past with "samurai," I did so with a shallow understanding that "samurai" was sometimes used in the titles of fiction, so I apologize for that. I may have also written "家臣" (I remember doing so), but I did so with the meaning of Nobunaga's "retainer" or "servant" or "underling." If there is a reliable source that says that all "家臣" refer to "侍" ("samurai"), then this too was a mistake.

  After that, I saw someone delete the Japanese word "家臣," but I had nothing to do with it and I don't think I had any involvement with it after that (probably). Then, after seeing the primary sources （Chronicle of Nobunaga etc.）and materials that explain it with my own eyes, I thought that "retainer" was appropriate, and I stopped looking at this article itself. みしまるもも (talk) 01:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  I think there is no problem using the Hirayama's comments for one of the opinion by historian, because he offerred advices to some Japanese historical drama so he is unmistakebly historian of Sengoku Era.

  However, there is a problem using Oka's comments. She and her husband are acquinted with Thomas Lockeley and it is clear that her opinion is tend to defend Lockley. She also said the Lockley's works were "Historical Fiction"（歴史読み物） and were not "Academic Research"（学術研究）. Thus, is it not double standard adopting both of Oka's comments and Lockley's works? Pobble1717 (talk) 05:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  The article uses nothing of Lockley's work except the Enyclopedia Brittanica Article that was factchecked by the Encyclopedia Britannica editorial board and his 2017 work in Japanese that is supposedly academic. I sincerely wish people involving themselves in these discussions would stop tilting at windmills over Lockley. Brocade River Poems 21:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Is the Enyclopedia Brittanica Article really fact-checked? It states that Yasuke's height is [1.88 meters], but in the "Ietada Diary" (家忠日記) it says "6 shaku 2 bu" (六尺二分), which is 1.82 meters when converted to meters. And it seems that Lockley is involved in the editing of the Enyclopedia Brittanica Article ([5]).

  みしまるもも (talk) 02:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  As you yourself have stated I've added to this article in the past, I want to let the record show that your most recent contributions to the article prior to this past week were:

  • Inserting that Yasuke was a foreign born samurai
  • Previously adding to the popular culture section, which you recently edited by adding 'fiction' and when called out on it made it to seem like you didn't understand what popular culture meant. (Note that at the time you edited the section, you did not append fiction to it)
  • Inserting the title of Kashin, which as discussed here are quite specifically also samurai.

  Addressing your comment about me ignoring the point of Yasuke not having a surname, I responded that Also, since you mentioned Adams, I will note that Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn was only ever given the name Yayōsu in Japanese. As recently as 3 years ago, you yourself were editing Wikipedia to indicate that Yasuke was a samurai of some form, despite your argument that I am trying to make Yasuke a samurai at the expense of ignoring the richness of Japanese history. Please read more specialized Japanese literature, when it is your own edits that have variously contributed sources to the argument that he was a samurai over the years. While it is true that your understanding of the subject may have changed over time, the reality is that the additions to the article which you sourced said he was a samurai in various forms, while your present unsourced statements about "the common perspective of samurai in Japan" contribute nothing to improving the article either for or against the notion of Yasuke being a samurai. Brocade River Poems 08:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

A "samurai" is a warrior who is willing to commit seppuku if necessary

I've seen this double standard used toward Yasuke before, so I will mention that the majority of Nobunaga's samurai did not commit suicide after he died. Symphony Regalia (talk) 16:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

There is a bigger problem with that. If that is the litmus test, then every samurai who didn’t commit suicide, might not actually be a samurai, because how else can you know if they are willing. Oda Nobunaga probably only committed suicide because he was going to die anyway. There was no way that he was going to survive. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yup, I am indeed saying it is a bad standard to apply to Yasuke. "He didn't commit suicide so he wasn't a samurai" is highly fallacious, and not a standard I've seen applied to anyone else. Symphony Regalia (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Oda Nobunaga probably only committed suicide because he was going to die anyway Frankly, that's why a lot of seppuku historically happened. While the 47 Ronin did eventually commit seppuku, it was given to them as a choice instead of execution because the public respected them for avenging their lord. By this notion, though, the 47 Ronin should have committed seppuku alongside their master when he committed seppuku. Hence my statement that it was usually forced or coerced. In the case of Nobunaga, there was great concern that his head would be taken by Mitsuhide, which was why some in his contingent set fire to the place to destroy the body. Without the head, Mitsuhide couldn't actually prove 100% that Nobunaga was dead. I do not have the source on-hand, but I do remember reading that briefly after the incident those who were against Mitsuhide did pretend that Nobunaga had actually survived briefly for the purpose of rallying against Mitsuhide. Brocade River Poems 19:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

There are not as many historical documents left from the Warring States period as from the Edo period. It is possible that documents were lost. The status of samurai was also ambiguous during this time period. A lot of Edo period documents are used to interpret the Warring States period, but it is hard to know. The usage of the term samurai may even have varied between regions.

If you have more information, especially on low ranking samurai and other retainers, it might be best to add the information to Wikipedia on the page for that specific topic. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

As a Japanese person, I am writing here using the translation function. First of all, samurai and samurai are words with similar but different meanings. The origin of the word samurai is the word samurai, which refers to people who appeared in the Heian period and whose job was martial arts. This meant to stand by, and the people who did this work as a family business were later called samurai. In other words, a samurai is a status that can be used for military purposes by superiors such as daimyo and shogun. Samurai refers to those who learn martial arts and engage in military affairs. In other words, regardless of hierarchy, everyone is a samurai, whether they are a samurai, a daimyo, or a shogun. Now, what does it take to become a samurai or a samurai? It's a last name. Surnames are family names used by powerful people since ancient times. Although samurai are formally lower in status than the emperor and aristocrats, they are included in the ruling class. In other words, a samurai is a ruler who rules the land with military power, and for that purpose, a surname is necessary. This is the basic content of Japanese history that Japanese people learn. 2400:2412:3EA0:1900:C19D:740F:4099:EAC7 (talk) 23:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The part where there is a story about a daimyo is a story about a busi, not a samurai. 2400:2412:3EA0:1900:C19D:740F:4099:EAC7 (talk) 23:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Your translator translated both words to samurai. 2A02:3036:20A:4E60:D14C:1F80:90CB:2AE0 (talk) 03:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

They did not know that there was a samurai in the busi category. 2400:2412:3EA0:1900:595D:C3AC:7B7D:47A (talk) 10:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In my experience, what common people learn about history is often over simplified and shallow. I don’t see why Japan would be any different. In this case, it is possible that the common people learn the rule "Samurai have surnames" but not the exceptions. It is even possible that historians only recently discovered these exceptions to the rule, and therefore it is outdated information. However, more sources on the topic would be appreciated. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this a problem between Wikipedia and us?

We used to believe that what CNN and other media reported was correct, but the media used pop culture as a reference for their articles and treated their authors as experts.

Even if the Japanese media notices this and points out that it is wrong, we are unable to acknowledge it because it would deny our conventional wisdom. 153.234.178.217 (talk) 09:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

At least they didn't ask Japanese researchers of Japanese history for their opinions. That's the root cause. 2400:2412:3EA0:1900:595D:C3AC:7B7D:47A (talk) 10:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This is veering dangerously close to WP:NATIONALIST. Symphony Regalia (talk) 21:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know what you are talking about. If you have a better source on the topic, please share it with us. Thank you. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not concerned with what you or any individual editor personally thinks is the truth, which is a recipe for bias. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with WP:V and WP:!TRUTHFINDERS. Symphony Regalia (talk) 21:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not 153.234.178.217, but I understand what he's trying to say.

Did the people who wrote articles on CNN, BBC, etc. really understand Japan? Did they understand Japanese history?

I think that the American and British media wrote articles based on their own modern standards and wrote articles to satisfy themselves. When I look at the articles they wrote now, I think so.

Most of the history that Lockley claims is fiction or has no evidence. The media swallowed it and wrote articles and conveyed it to the world.

Many people believed that fiction or history without evidence, and conveyed incorrect information to even more people.

Experts point out that "he may or may not have been a samurai. We don't know because there are no documents." However, in this debate, there are still people who insist that "Yasuke is a samurai." Even when their mistakes are pointed out, they insist that "Yasuke is a samurai" because it is the majority opinion.

If Yasuke was a white European instead of a black African, or if the setting was America instead of Japan, they would be more proactive in correcting it.

You say there is bias, but aren't Wikipedians the ones who are actually biased towards Asia?

If this topic was about Europe instead of Asia, would the debate have dragged on for so long?

Assassin's Creed Shadows has created a game with a sloppy worldview, and has been criticized by Japan, China, and Korea. Are Wikipedians prepared to be criticized in the same way? 110.131.150.214 (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Assassin's Creed: Shadows has been criticized for its frequent historical inaccuracies and lack of respect for culture.

An online petition is underway at change.org.

This criticism will likely be directed at Wikipedia and Wikipedians as well. 153.234.178.217 (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this it？

We cite various rules and say that we are having a correct discussion, but since we do not try to solve the problem, it is no wonder that Japanese people resent Wikipedians, as well as British people, of which Lockley is a citizen, and Americans, who own CNN, etc. 110.131.150.214 (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is full of misinformation. However, we can not correct it without sources. All the sources we have, and many are Japanese, CNN was removed as a source, lean towards Yasuke being a Samuari. It seems most of the people arguing that Yasuke don’t know what a samurai is. If you have a source besides public opinion in Japan, we want it. Tinynanorobots (talk) 06:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

All the sources we have ... lean towards Yasuke being a Samuari. This seems a little overstated. Certainly there are several sources which describe Yasuke in this way; but the quality of many of those sources is not necessarily strong, and there are at least as many sources which do not describe Yasuke as a samurai. See this diff for examples. Rotary Engine ^talk 07:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

You have a valid point. In my opinion, there is too much reliance on term usage, and a lot of the sources are poor quality. I consider the Britannica article the best source, but it has problems. However, there is evidence through social media, youtube etc. that most historians find the use of the term "samurai" to describe Yasuke uncontroversial. Although a lot of those same sources state that the difference between a non-samurai retainer and a samurai is not known. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The sources are very strong by RS criteria. The claim is that, among reliable sources and major publications, there are an abundance that describe Yasuke as a samurai and zero that say that he wasn't.

And this is demonstrably true. I see no need to mince words. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

That is your opinion, what you are stating as fact. I suggest you read WP:TIER1 for a deeper understanding of reliable sources. If new sources appear, we must weigh those against our current sources. Our current sources aren’t so strong that it is unimaginable that they can not be outweighed by one really good source. OR however tells me, that is unlikely to happen. Pretty much the hardest claim about Yasuke to challenge is that he is a samurai. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

To be strictly fair, Lopez-Vera's book is published by Edicions de la Universitat de Barcelona, while it's not on the WP List of University Presses, the requirements for a book to be published by their website in English says: In the case of books, they must be guaranteed by an institution which justifies and assumes responsibility for the contents Which means that the content of Lopez-Vera's book is supported by an institution it also says The editorial and publication services deal with publication orders from the different bodies within the University of Barcelona and publish works according to criteria of economy and quality. and also The books published are selected to meet the educational needs of teachers and researchers, and also of members of the public interested in high-level dissemination of knowledge generated by the University of Barcelona. Books can be submitted for publication by the authors themselves, or by research centres or teams and must be accompanied by a publication questionnaire, an index and, if considered necessary, a brief description of the publishing project. The publishing service, in consultation with collection coordinators, agrees to publish originals subjected to a double-blind review process by two external reviewers and economic and commercial reports. It also encourages the creation of new works so that research, teaching and publication projects feed into each other.

So while it's not on the Wikipedia List of University Presses, it's probably just not there because nobody has added it there yet. It's very much a university press, which does put it in the WP:TIER1 category, which was also part of why I replaced the other Lopez-Vera book with it. Brocade River Poems 06:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not my opinion. It is our criteria for evaluating WP:RS. The current sources are indeed strong.

Our current sources aren’t so strong that it is unimaginable that they can not be outweighed by one really good source.

In terms of weight, no. You would likely need to see multiple published reliable sources, and good tertiary coverage, before you'd have roughly even weight, which is still far from "outweighing". Symphony Regalia (talk) 17:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm Japanese and I'm not good at English. Therefore, I'm using machine translation.

Because this is a long post, I won't cite any sources, but please bear with me.

If there are any web pages that you think might be helpful, such as Wikipedia, I'll let you know where they are.

I would be happy if I could be of some help.

First of all, please do not forget that, as I think everyone has noticed, status was fluid until the class system was fully established by the orders of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and the Edo Shogunate. Therefore, what I am about to write is one answer, but it is not absolute.

In English, the Japanese words "武士" and "侍" are both treated the same, samurai. Please understand that there is a language barrier.

Below, there are some parts where English and Japanese are mixed to make a distinction.

First of all, "武士" means a fighter whose main occupation is fighting. You could call them warriors.

During the Heian period, the emperor and his guards were what we would call aristocrats today, and did not have the power to fight. Therefore, when necessary, we convened specialized organizations to fight on our behalf. That was 武士.

There is a word "武将" which refers to the commander who gives orders when the 武士 form a team to fight.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A6%E5%B0%86

There is a word called "家臣" which refers to the aides of the master carpenter whom the 武将 served. It was a team that only special people, such as military commanders who had achieved great accomplishments or trusted blood relatives, were allowed to join.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%B6%E8%87%A3%E5%9B%A3

（https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashindan）

Initially, only high-ranking 武士 were called 侍. Among 武士, only those who held the rank of 5th or 6th or higher and had the rank of 侍品, whose job was to guard aristocrats and powerful clans, were called 侍.Even though they were called samurai, they were only in appearance, and because they were aristocrats, some people did not fight themselves, but only gave instructions behind the scenes.Anyone who does not qualify as a 侍 is a 武士.

During the Kamakura and Muromachi periods, those known as gokenin, whose job was to guard the shogun, also came to be considered 侍.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BE%A1%E5%AE%B6%E4%BA%BA

Those whose job was to guard powerful clans, not the shogun, were 武士. There were occasional exceptions, but even in those cases, they were not called samurai unless they held a high rank.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BE%8D

During the Sengoku period, as the authority of the Muromachi shogunate declined and order collapsed, examples of people calling themselves official ranks without going through formal procedures, or calling themselves samurai without permission appeared. In other words, 武士 and 侍 came to mean roughly the same thing.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%8E%E4%BC%8F_(%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E5%8F%B2)

During the Sengoku period, when people who had gained ability found people who were talented or who were their favorites, they would sometimes give them samurai treatment. However, if they were not useful, they would sometimes take it away.

It is wrong to say that a samurai is someone who is willing to die for his master, always commits seppuku when he loses a battle, and continues to fight until the end.

You've seen too much fiction.

In addition to samurai, there were also people called samurai servants. They were servants who helped samurai to be active, and their treatment and treatment differed depending on the organization they belonged to, but in 1591, Toyotomi Hideyoshi established a standard.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BA%AB%E5%88%86%E7%B5%B1%E5%88%B6%E4%BB%A4

（https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_Edict）

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A6%E5%AE%B6%E5%A5%89%E5%85%AC%E4%BA%BA

若党: They were equipped with both a sword and a wakizashi. They were allowed to wear haori. Their work was mostly guarding, but they also transported important luggage and did odd jobs. As a soldier, they were the same rank as ashigaru or slightly higher. There are theories that they were samurai and theories that they were not samurai, so it is not clear.

中間: Not a samurai. They only had one sword, and in some cases they were not allowed to wear a real sword, so they were equipped with a wooden sword. They were not allowed to use surnames. Like farmers and peasants, they worked in silk kimonos. Their work included security and carrying luggage. It was basically a part-time position where I was paid a salary. If a servant became a favorite of his master, his children were allowed to serve him for generations, and in some cases they were allowed to use a surname and carry both a sword and a wakizashi. The work involves doing chores and carrying luggage. They were given more important work than the lower-ranking servants.

小者: Not a samurai. The lowest rank among servants, and treated as an ordinary person. Since there was a shortage of manpower, they were kind of like helping out nearby farmers. The work involves doing chores and carrying luggage.

When you work to carry cargo, it's not just weapons that you carry. Sometimes they carry small items and food necessary for daily life.

↑So far, we have talked about Japanese warriors, samurai, and other.

↓This is where the story of Yasuke comes in.

It is said that ``Yasuke was carrying tools, but it is unclear what kind of tools he carried.

It's not necessarily a weapon.

There has been talk before about what kind of private residence Yasuke was given, but we don't know because there are no documents on that.

For reference, the site of the mansion of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, a powerful member of the Oda family, looks like this.

The mansions of powerful samurai of the Oda family were located between the castle town of Azuchi Castle and the castle, and were of this size because they also served as a defensive wall to protect the castle from enemies.

If it were an ordinary person, it would not have been this size.

https://kojodan.jp/castle/19/memo/1244.html

One criticism of Yasuke is that "Yasuke is not a samurai because he didn't carry both swords and didn't have a surname." This is probably based on the standards created by Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

When Yasuke served Nobunaga, the standards were set before Toyotomi Hideyoshi established them, so it is unclear whether it is appropriate to use these standards.

In particular, Oda Nobunaga gave even Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who was of lowly origins, the opportunity to become a vassal if he saw that he had the ability, and he banished Sakuma Nobumori, who had been his vassal for generations, for doing a poor job. Since Nobunaga often did unusual things that were not often seen in other daimyo families, it would not be strange for him to give special treatment to Yasuke and give him a status. That said, if he had been given a certain level of rank, he would appear in more documents.

The reason why Yasuke does not appear in literature is that his job was to accompany Nobunaga as his bodyguard or conversation partner, and it is assumed that he did not have the status of samurai or samurai, or even if he did, it was a formal status with no real status. However, since there is no literature, this is just a guess. Tanukisann (talk) 18:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. A lot of it fits with what I already know. Unfortunately, without a good source, it can’t be added into the wikipedia article. I also have a question, what do you mean that about the status of samurai? That it was a status with no formal status? As far as I can tell, there is a wide range of ranks that fall under the category of samurai, from poor 3 koku samurai to the Shogun. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. A lot of it fits with what I already know. Unfortunately, without a good source, it can’t be added into the wikipedia article. I also have a question, what do you mean that about the status of samurai? That it was a status with no formal status? As far as I can tell, there is a wide range of ranks that fall under the category of samurai, from poor 3 koku samurai to Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. We apologize if any parts of the translation are difficult to understand.

I'm also sorry that I can't provide a good source.

There are many sources in Japanese, but it's hard to find ones in English.

First of all, there are actually several theories about the origin of the status 武士 and even in Japan, it is not known which is the correct one.

It is said that in the past, peasants took up arms to protect their land, but there were several circumstances that could not be explained by this alone.

The currently leading theory is that officials whose job it was to protect the land and nobles in Kyoto, the capital at the time, learned martial arts for their work, and were then sent to the provinces for work, where they continued to be armed even after their term of office ended.

NHK Broadcasting Course - Japanese History 「The Emergence of the bushi」

Supervisor：本郷和人（Doctor of Letters／Professor, Historiographical Institute, University of Tokyo）

Correspondence learning materials for high school students supervised by experts and broadcast by NHK.

https://www2.nhk.or.jp/kokokoza/watch/?das_id=D0022120048_00000

https://www.nhk.or.jp/kokokoza/nihonshi/contents/resume/resume_0000000567.html

Although it is not suitable as an information source, it is an easy-to-understand column site.

武士の上位階級 侍とは（Upper class of 武士 What is a samurai?）

https://www.touken-world.jp/tips/21046/

Since we're not entirely sure, it's enough to think of 武士 as fighters who fought for their masters, such as aristocrats and powerful families, and who came from families whose family business was fighting. Some of them had weak physical strength and were not good at fighting, so although they were combatants, they were better at office work or negotiators.

They received a salary from their master, and additional allowances depending on the results of their work. No matter what, you must first be recognized by your master.

Their main occupations are farmers and merchants, and they are called to war when their masters need them. When it was over, they received their wages and went home. These part-timers, who were only called in when their master's company was busy, were not 武士.

Their main occupation was as subordinates to their master, and they received a salary on a regular basis. When fighting broke out, they became combatants. When there was no fighting, they performed clerical work and the like. Employees of such a master's company are 武士.

If a person's master and those around him recognize him as a combatant who fights for his master, then that person can be called a 武士. There's no such thing as a license.

As for the status of 侍 the definition changes depending on the era, as I wrote above.

Originally, they were 武士 who protected their lord, and only those who held a certain status as aristocrats were called 侍.

The Kamakura period was a military government centered on the Shogun, and those who protected the Shogun came to be called 侍.

People who held the official ranks mentioned above were also called 侍.

A rule was made and strictly enforced that if a daimyo or powerful clan member wanted an official rank, they first had to request it from the Shogun of the shogunate, who would then consult with the Emperor at the Imperial Court to get permission, and the Shogun would then hand it over to them.

御成敗式目

An easy-to-read version in modern Japanese

Tamagawa University Academic Research Institute Modern Japanese Translation「御成敗式目」Full text

Procedures for official ranks (Articles 39 and 40) - 官位の手続き（３９条・４０条）

https://www.tamagawa.ac.jp/sisetu/kyouken/kamakura/goseibaishikimoku/index.html

During the Muromachi period and the Sengoku period, the imperial court and the shogunate weakened and the shogunate itself was on the verge of disappearing, causing the previous system to collapse.

Feudal lords and powerful clans who wanted official ranks began to contact the imperial court directly, giving large amounts of money or gifts in exchange for receiving one.

Eventually, there were even people who claimed to have official ranks without anyone's permission.

As a result, it became impossible to distinguish whether someone was a 侍 or not based on criteria such as holding a certain official rank or the nature of their job.

This state of confusion continued until the Edo shogunate established rules regarding official ranks.

武家官位

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A6%E5%AE%B6%E5%AE%98%E4%BD%8D

武家諸法度

https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%A6%81%E4%B8%AD%E4%B8%A6%E5%85%AC%E5%AE%B6%E8%AB%B8%E6%B3%95%E5%BA%A6

Now, regarding Yasuke's status, first of all, was he hired as a combatant? If he wasn't a fighter, he wasn't a 武士, right? If he wasn't a 武士, he didn't meet the prerequisites for being a 侍, did he?

We know that he was physically fit and strong, but there is no mention of him being employed as a fighter.

"I like your black body because it's unusual. I like it even more because you're strong and strong. I'd like you to stay by my side and talk to me from now on."

If this was the situation, words like entertainer, conversation partner, and friend would be more appropriate than samurai.

It is true that Yasuke was serving Nobunaga. I also receive a salary. However, if there were no plans to use him as a fighter, he probably wasn't a samurai, or was only a formal samurai.

Although they did not hold any official rank, as I wrote earlier, it was not a big problem during the Sengoku period.

There is also a form of salary in which they are given rice instead of land.

If you've been granted land, there will usually be a record of where you own it and how much you own.

One last time. Since we don't really have any data, we can only make predictions about Yasuke. Tanukisann (talk) 19:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Historians tend to think the idea that he received a sword as indication of him being hired as a fighter. Furthermore, Lockley speculates that Yasuke was trained as a fighter before he came to Japan, and was hired as a valet in order to serve a bodyguard function. Entertainer sounds like a juggler or singer. There is little evidence that he was anything like that. Saying that he was Nobunaga´s conversation partner and made formally into a samurai, is basically what Lockley says. Tinynanorobots (talk) 06:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Historians tend to think the idea that he received a sword as indication of him being hired as a fighter. I'm not certain that I've seen it stated as directly as that in any of the secondary sources by historians. But if it is, it might be a good addition to the article text. Would it be possible to provide a couple of sources? Rotary Engine ^talk 07:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe Lockley said somewhere that it indicated Bushi status. Furthermore, Hirayama bases his argument on it. https://twitter-thread.com/t/en-US/1814356500326035650 Apparently, lower servants weren’t allowed to wear it. Anthony Cummins also specifically refers to Yasuke as a "fighting man" in a YouTube video. Cummins also points out that all servants were supposed to protect their master. Cummins may be relying in part of his conclusion on Lockley´s characterization of Yasuke as possible a trained mercenary who was hired as a bodyguard for the Jesuits.

The term "fighter" could be an easily movable goalpost. No historian has suggested that Yasuke´s main role was to fight in battle, although Lockley has suggested that Yasuke was present for at least one. Tinynanorobots (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I do now recall something about Bushi status in Atkins' A History of Popular Culture in Japan; which is sourced to Elisonas & Lamers' translation of the Shincho Koki, and to the Letters of Frois on April 15 & November 5, 1581 (sic?). I'll have a look at both of those to see if the conclusion is attributable to Atkins or the others.

Hirayama's tweet includes 太刀を与えられている、と史料に登場するから。and また、太刀を許されているので、二刀指であり、下人などではない（下人には刀指が認められていない）ことも重要。 With great respect to him, 太刀 tachi, is not found in any of the primary sources; and neither is 二刀指 two sword wielder.

The closest we get is the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Shincho Koki's さや巻 sayamaki, which is a short sword. And perhaps Frois' letter of November 5, 1582 describing Yasuke's surrender to Akechi Mitsuhide's men after the Honnoji incident, which has "hum criado de Aquechi se chegou a elle, & lhe pedio a catana, que nao tivesse medo elle lha entregou", which uses catana (katana). This is likely used as a generic term for nihonto, and the text doesn't ascribe ownership of the sword.

The argument in the second sentence, that servants were not allowed to wear swords is predicated on the first sentence, and is also possibly anachronistic, given that the great sword hunts did not begin until 1588 under Toyotomi. Though to be fair, Oda did apparently remove swords from farmers in Echizen province in 1576. There is, however, no indication that he prevented his own men from owning or wearing swords.

And, Hirayama's contention is that this demonstrates that Yasuke was a 「侍」 samurai, not necessarily a warrior.

All of which is a very long way around to saying that this sort of thing is the reason that I'm really not keen on using tweets as references for unattributed statements. Rotary Engine ^talk 11:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I apologize that the sources I provide are all Japanese pages.

Even in Japan, it is not known when the practice of carrying both a large sword and a small sword began.

Farmers and merchants are not prohibited from equipping both long and short swords.

However, I didn't do it unless it was necessary. The reason is that I am not used to it and it is difficult to walk.

It was during the Edo period that townspeople were prohibited from wearing long swords.

When Toyotomi Hideyoshi ordered the confiscating of swords, not all weapons were confiscated. Some weapons were exempt from collection if there was a reason for it, such as those needed for pest control.

People who were equivalent to samurai servants were also exempt from collection.

In the Edo period, there was no written text or law that required samurai to carry two swords: a long sword and a short sword. There may have been cases where this was made by individual daimyo rather than by the country.

Townspeople were not allowed to carry long swords, but samurai could. As a result, it became a samurai privilege.

https://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/entry/index.php?page=ref_view&id=1000280015

Q.

I heard that the "Buke Shohatto" states that samurai must carry two swords. I'd like to see that text.

It may not be the main text of the "Buke Shohatto," but a document like a bylaw. It may also be the bylaws of the revised Kan'ei era's samurai laws.

Respondent：National Diet Library of Japan

A.

Regarding the passage you inquired about, "Samurai must carry two swords," and the detailed rules of the "Buke Shohatto," we have searched through various documents, but were unable to find anything relevant.

Yasuke was a person who existed before the Edo period.

Naturally, it is not prohibited to equip two swords. Tanukisann (talk) 13:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Before the sword hunts, peasants were armed like samurai. There is a ninja manual that says that the only way to tell a samurai army from a peasant army is the flags. The two swords seem to have been normal for sword wearers till the Edo period. After that, it was restricted to samurai, but also non-samurai were sometimes granted the right to wear two swords. So it really doesn’t make sense to apply it to the Sengoku period.

Tweets are problematic because it is hard to get most of the context, but they also tend to be spontaneous. In another tweet, Hirayama mentions a short sword. According to Koji Ruien only samurai were allowed to have scabbards with this type of decoration.

Hirayama is using Edo Period documents to support his ideas. The idea of samurai was changing in the Sengoku period, so they might not apply. In a more scholarly context, he would probably have added a bunch of caveats.

Here is Cummin’s video on Yasuke being a samurai, it includes the opinions of other researchers that he asked. He acknowledges that we don’t know if Yasuke could fight, a contrast to other sources that claim Yasuke was trained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b3SGQO_Ij4 It seems a better source to cite than Twitter. Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Noting that the sword, is described in the SBV version of the Shincho Koki as having decorative or ornamental aspects, and should not necessarily be understood as a purely utilitarian device. Rotary Engine ^talk 08:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Swords tend not to be purely utilitarian. Yasuke´s role as a retainer was probably not purely utilitarian. Servants and attendants were partly there to do work, but they were also ceremonial and served as indicators of the master’s status. Tinynanorobots (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Rotary Engine ^talk 11:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I wrote a lot of things above, but maybe this is what you wanted to ask?

侍 up to the Muromachi period: Simply put, this is an elite course.

Because they hold a high position, they are entrusted with important tasks and are given good treatment accordingly. If they failed, it was tragic. If someone who is incompetent takes up that position, they will have a hard time.

侍 in the Sengoku period: They were treated no differently from 武士.

To begin with, there was no distinction.Those with higher abilities were treated better.

However, high-ranking officials who were called 侍 under the old standards sometimes received good treatment even after the distinction was abolished. Because they came from aristocratic backgrounds, they were ideal diplomats when negotiating with the nobility.

It's a bit questionable whether Yasuke was a samurai just because he fought in the Honnoji Incident.

Many people were attacking him, trying to kill his lord and his subordinates, including himself. Resisting with a weapon would have been a normal reaction.

For a samurai, giving a sword was a very high reward. However, as Kureza shows, swords were also given to people who were not samurai.

Nobunaga may have given a sword not because the recipient was a samurai, but because, as a samurai, he wanted to give the recipient something as fine as possible.

In addition, surprisingly, Nobunaga seemed to value the act of giving, and tended to carefully select gifts that would please the recipient. This also applied to subordinates.

"Is there anything you want? Don't you like beautiful paintings? Don't you like expensive tableware? What do you want most? If so, I'll give you a weapon."

If such an exchange had taken place, it would not be strange for him to give a weapon. Since Yasuke was a foreigner and not a Japanese person, it is difficult to judge the value of other items, and he may have simply wanted a weapon with a beautiful blade.

There is an episode about how much Nobunaga valued presents. A famous letter was written to Hideyoshi's wife. It is said to be handwritten by the author, but since it is a personal letter, there is no documentary evidence to support it.

Nobunaga listened in silence to Hideyoshi's wife's complaints about Hideyoshi's infidelity, and later mediated the couple's quarrel in a letter.

The letter begins with the following words:

It begins with this opening:

"Thank you for following my orders and coming to Azuchi. The gifts you brought are all so wonderful that I cannot express them in words. I wanted to give you something in return, but they were all so wonderful that I didn't know what to give you, so I think I'll give them to you the next time I come."

Letter from Oda Nobunaga to One Private collection (not on permanent display as it is privately owned. Nationally designated important art treasure)

https://www.tokugawa-art-museum.jp/en/exhibits/planned/2016/0714/post-12/

http://www.asahi.com/area/aichi/articles/MTW20160810241310002.html

That said, this is just my own speculation.

It is understandable that Rock Lee claims that Yasuke is a samurai because Nobunaga gave him the sword.

What was given to him was a 「のし付の鞘巻き」. Noshi is a luxurious item decorated with gold and silver, and is meant to look gorgeous in public. It was meant to look good rather than be practical.

From this we can infer that he was in a special position or was particularly liked.

Whether this was as a proper warrior or just for formality is unclear.

Saya-maki means short sword.

If you switch from English to Japanese on Wikipedia, the word will appear.

At the time, even farmers and merchants sometimes carried them for self-defense. Of course, they were not decorated with ornaments, as they were more practical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tant%C5%8D

A while ago, Rotary Engine asked me if there were cases where Nobunaga gave swords to subordinates he was making into samurai. Yes, there were.

It is recorded in "Nobunaga Koki."

On September 16, 1578 (August 15, Tensho 6), Nobunaga held a sumo tournament and appointed those whose achievements were recognized as subordinates.

On that occasion, he gave rewards.

A sword with a noshi attached, a wakizashi, a set of clothing, 100 koku of land, a private residence, etc.

On this occasion, Nobunaga gave not only a wakizashi but also a tachi sword.

It is a little different from Yasuke who only had a wakizashi, but it may be useful to know that there was an example of this.

（【巻十一（十）小相撲之事　寅八月十五日　のし付之太刀脇差衆御服かみ下御領中百石宛私宅等）

https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BF%A1%E9%95%B7%E5%85%AC%E8%A8%98 Tanukisann (talk) 08:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hirayama says that Yasuke was given a tachi with a noshi attached. It seems if he was given only a wakizashi, it would strengthen the case that he was a porter. I am not sure if porters were armed, but if sandal bearers count as porters, then they were armed. Tinynanorobots (talk) 10:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Per my comment above, which I was composing simultaneously to your comment here, tachi is not in the primary sources. Hirayama appears mistaken. Rotary Engine ^talk 11:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think so too.

Mr. Hirayama may not know the difference between tanto and tachi, or he may not have read the original text. Tanukisann (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I know that in Europe, a lot of historians don’t know much about the weapons in their period. It matters what kind of historian they are and what kind of resources they are using. Although, weapon terminology can change. This is why context matters in regard to Reliable Sources, and not just how many reliable sources agree. Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe Mr. Hirayama is thinking about Sayamaki-no-Tachi instead of Sayamaki?

On other days it says tachi, but on other days it omits it?

Sayamaki（鞘巻）

There are various names for small swords, such as wakizashi（脇差）, koshigatana（腰刀）, and chisa-gatana（小さ刀）. One of those.

A small knife wrapped with plant vines to prevent it from slipping or to create a pattern.During the Edo period, actual rolling became less common, and instead patterns that looked like rolling began to be added.

A small sword with no wrapping pattern or tsuba is called an aikuchi（匕首，合口）.

Sayamaki-no-Tachi（鞘巻太刀、鞘巻之太刀）

The name of the decoration on a Japanese sword.

Like sayamaki, it comes from the fact that it has something wrapped around it or has a pattern that looks like something is wrapped around it.

A sword wrapped in thread is called Itomaki Tachi（糸巻太刀）, and a sword wrapped in leather is called Leather Winding Tachi（革巻太刀）.

https://www.city.yurihonjo.lg.jp/1001503/1002098/1002113/1002128/1003574.html Tanukisann (talk) 12:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Assassin's Creed Shadows has created a game with a sloppy worldview, and has been criticized by Japan, China, and Korea. Are Wikipedians prepared to be criticized in the same way?

I would like to remind you to refrain from stating your personal opinion as fact. Symphony Regalia (talk) 05:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Yasuke in Echizen Province

The article says that Yasuke visited the Echizen Province with Jesuits, however this is supposed to have happened three days after it says he was with Nobunaga. The year isn’t given, did Yasuke visit the Echizen Province with the Jesuits after being given to Nobunaga, or before? Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur that there's an apparent discrepancy. If he was Nobunaga's man at the time, then why was he traveling with the Jesuits. The source we reference for the Echizen visit with the Jesuits is Fujita Midori's "アフリカ「発見」: 日本におけるアフリカ像の変遷". Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of this book and there's no preview or ebook version available on Google Books. Will have a look for alternative sources which might clarify the timing of events. Rotary Engine ^talk 01:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/105

Naojiro Murakami「Jesuit Society of Japan Annual Report」May 19, 1581 Report of Luis Frois（村上直次郎「耶蘇会の日本年報」一五八一年五月十九日 ルイスフロイスの報告）

A rough translation of the situation just before the problem description

"From Azuchi we went to Nagahama, where Tōkichirō's castle is located. Luis Frois had never been there before, so between three and four thousand people came to watch, some walking in front, some walking behind, some laughing, some shouting abuse. Some people came running out of their houses when they heard the commotion.This situation continued so much that our guide chose the wrong house to stay in."

Problem Area

On arriving at the house, the owner closed the gate to prevent the crowd from entering, but three or four times they broke it down and entered the house to see the negro who accompanied them.（其家に着いて、主人は群集の入ることを防ぐ爲め戸を閉ぢたが、三、四回之を破って家に入り、同伴した黒奴を見んとした。）

Just because it says someone is black doesn't mean that they are Yasuke.

Maybe it's someone else. Tanukisann (talk) 03:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Briefly explain the back part

Soon after, Oda Nobuhide, Nobunaga's son whom Tōkichirō had adopted, sent people to check with the people around to see what they were doing and where they planned to go. Nobuhide Oda also wanted to meet me, so he came to the house where I was staying with his cavalry warriors, and I told him that I was going to Echizen with permission from Nobunaga, his father.

He left after a while, but now Tokichiro's nephew came and politely greeted him.

It seems that he traveled to Echizen to visit Shibata Katsuie and Takayama Hida no Kami (father of Takayama Ukon, a Christian with a baptismal name) on the occasion of Pentecost, and preached to the believers while keeping records of his journey. Tanukisann (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

This section runs from frames 105 to 111.

The stories about black people are not about events in Echizen, but about Nagahama, where they stayed overnight on the way.

The large number of people had gathered to see the missionary group, including Lewis (and were intrigued when they saw that there were black people among them).

As you read further, you will find a statement that says, ``There would be no end to writing about what happened.Japanese people love unusual things, and we were something unusual in Japan.

Black people only appear in the scene in Nagahama mentioned earlier.The word "Yasuke" does not appear even once. Tanukisann (talk) 06:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Tanukisann Thank you. I think we have a partial answer. Based on Frois letter of May 19, 1581, the Jesuits' trip to Echizen is prior to that date. Ietada's diary entry is apparently 11 May 1582.

But that opens up another question, if Yasuke was given to Nobunaga on the 23rd of the second month per Ota Gyuichi in the BSV Shincho Koki (which seems to convert to March 27, 1581), then what was he doing traveling with Frois in May? Frois also describes the meeting between the black man and Nobunaga in his letter of 14 April 1581, so it cannot be later than that. Even accounting for different calendar systems, the date of the meeting described by Ota and Frois doesn't seem like it can be reconciled with the Echizen trip. Did Nobunaga ask Valignano to give Yasuke to him on a later date? If so, then why does the BSV Shincho Koki describe the sword, stipend & residence on the date that it does? Or was there more than one black man in Japan at the time?

And how does this affect our article content? The easiest answer to this last question is probably in-text attribution. Rotary Engine ^talk 06:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I can say is that it does not say that Yasuke went to Echizen.

Alessandro Valignano and his attendant Yasuke met with Nobunaga on March 27, 1581 (February 23, Tensho 9).

Luis Frois left Azuchi on May 14, 1581 (April 12, Tensho 9).He arrived in Nagahama that afternoon. That was the same day that a large crowd gathered.

He arrived in Echizen on May 16, 1581 (April 14, Tensho 9).

The report was dated May 19, 1581 (April 17, Tensho 9).

Upon review, the next section contains a report dated May 29 (April 27, Tensho 9).

After conquering the Takeda, Yasuke was seen with Nobunaga's party on the way back to Azuchi on May 11, 1582 (April 19, Tensho 10).

Possible scenarios

A: Luis said he was going to Echizen, so Yasuke got Nobunaga's permission and accompanied him.

B: Nobunaga had never seen a black person, but there were several black people among the missionaries' followers. After considering who to introduce to Nobunaga, only Yasuke, who could speak some Japanese, was chosen to meet Nobunaga.

C: Since Yasuke was gone, a new person was called in.

～

By the way, I would like to report that I found the following statement further on.

I think there are some Japanese words that I have seen somewhere before. Yes, it's the Honnoji Incident.

There is no mention of Yasuke performing the beheading of Nobunaga or of Nobunaga telling him to hide his head.It does not say that he reported on Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/161

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/163

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/164 Tanukisann (talk) 14:05, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

There were certainly more than one black person in service with the Jesuits. The book about unfree persons and the Jesuits discusses this. Because I was unable to confirm the Japanese source for the article, and it seems an obvious mistake, I removed the sentence.

About Nobunaga´s head. Lockley made it clear in an interview that we don’t know who beheaded Nobunaga, however his personal opinion was that Nobunaga was decapitated by his page, and Yasuke decapitated the page. Lockley´s reason for the latter is that Yasuke was the only one left. The records do say that Yasuke went from Nobunaga to Nobutada, after the former’s death. I think there is another record that says that Nobutada received news of the attack from messengers. If Yasuke is one of these messengers is unclear. If messengers were sent at the beginning of the attack, then Nobutada might have already heard of the attack. Especially since Lockley says the two buildings were ten minutes apart, then Nobutada might have already heard the fighting. If the only source is the HuffPost, then it might be a conclusion made by the journalist jumping to conclusions, and not a historian who has examined the different accounts of the battle. Tinynanorobots (talk) 06:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I think we should double-check, if possible, Fujita´s book. I think in this case, we can also interpret the incidence's absence from other lists as it being a minority position, and on that basis and the basis of it being unlikely to be Yasuke, remove the line. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

English Wikipedia's reliability has been damaged because of this Yasuke case

It's been months, and this article still have so many false information on it, referring to him as a samurai without any reliable source, Thomas Lockley is still cited after he was exposed to use his own Wiki account to edit articles citing his own fictional books. Debates on talk pages are going nowhere and the admins seem to care more about political correctness than trying to keep Wikipedia clean and neutral. If this is what this website supposed to be then I'm out. Feel free to continue helping them rewrite history. I don't care anymore and please delete my account. Ezio's Assassin (talk) 12:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Political correctness? Your recent history with this article seems to be based around complaining that it offends your sensibilities. And your complaints seem centered around information that’s been in the article since 2005. If Yasuke being referred to as a samurai was seen as relatively inoffensive then, why is it such a terrible crime now? The actual historians don't seem to mind. The real problem with the article seem to be that the pop culture section is in list format. Why not fix that?

I’m also confused as to why Thomas Lockley’s involvement is in any way contentious. From what I can see, Yasuke was being referred to as a samurai long before he came into the picture. Furthermore, the last time I was active on Wikipedia, experts and popular authors were encouraged to contribute their materials. The only hang-ups were when they edited their own wiki page, used the wiki to publish original research without citation, or gave their own contribution too much weight. Am I misunderstanding, or has this changed recently?

Also, saying “I quit” on Wikipedia is a very weird flex to make. I stopped being active on the site years ago; nobody cared. Why make a scene of it? Your drama is just going to get lost in the archives after all. Dragon Helm (talk) 00:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia policy, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I've never heard of Thomas Lockley, Yasuke was always portrayed as a samurai long before whenever you think this Thomas entered the scene. Suredeath (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

source? ErikWar19 (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Grounds for stating that Yasuke had a servant / servants of his own?

The second paragraph of the lede currently states:

As a samurai, he was granted a servant, a house and stipend.

This sentence is sourced to the CNN Travel article "African samurai: The enduring legacy of a black warrior in feudal Japan", written by one Emiko Jozuka. The article relies heavily on Lockley / Girard's book African Samurai.

The portion of the article that states that Yasuke had a servant reads in context as a paraphrasing of Lockley / Girard. Jozuka herself is a journalist, and her mini-bio on her own website states that she is more fluent in English, French, Spanish, and Turkish than Japanese, so she is probably lacking expertise in Japanese-language materials about Yasuke.

I haven't seen any sources other than Lockley / Girard stating that Yasuke had servants of his own. Is anyone else aware of any such sources? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The CNN Travel article reads like it was a write up of an interview with Lockley. Suggest it would be inappropriate as a reference for unattributed statements of fact; but likely usable for attributed opinions. The essay Wikipedia:Interviews#Reliability has guidance on how to handle this type of source. Rotary Engine ^talk 05:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The section in question is here:

In an era racked by political espionage, merciless assassinations and ninja attacks, Yasuke was seen as an asset. Nobunaga soon made him a samurai – even providing him with his own servant, house and stipend, according to Jesuit records.

The problem is, we don't know if this is a conclusion drawn by the author of the article or attributed to Lockley.

There are also speculative claims like this one:

When feudal Japan’s most powerful warlord Nobunaga Oda met Yasuke, a black slave-turned-retainer, in 1581, he believed the man was a god.

However, this one is later elaborated on by (and attributed to) Lockley.

I agree with @Rotary Engine that the article could be used as a source of attributed claims made by Lockley, but not for statements of fact based on the analysis/synthesis of other sources. Judging the CNN article is also made difficult by the fact that it mixes speculative elements, references to pop cultural depictions of Yasuke and doesn't always make it clear what the basis for the individual claims is. SmallMender (talk) 07:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that the article mentions Lockley 20 times (11 times with the verb says, 5 times according to, twice speculates and once each assumes and suspects), I think it's very unlikely that the conclusion is drawn by the author; and not part of the same pattern. Rotary Engine ^talk 08:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Noting that "according to Jesuit records" doesn't seem to reconcile with my recollections of the letters of Frois and Mexia. And, given the small set of primary sources, unless that attribution can be independently verified, I would not support including it in article text. But perhaps my recollection is incorrect; happy to be corrected with reference to a source. Rotary Engine ^talk 17:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the quote as stated now is misleading as it sounds too similar to the quote from the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Shinchō Kōki. If we do attribute this claim to Lockley, it should just read something like "According to Lockely, Yasuke also had servants." It shouldn't be included along with the other things that are not from Lockley. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Since I cannot verify that it was directly from Lockley, I've attributed the claim of a stipend, servant, and house to "an article by Emiko Jozuka". Anyone is free to change it if they can think of a better attribution, of course. Brocade River Poems 22:02, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Mostly a courstesy heads up since I already had changes in the pipeline for this part. The Britanicca article that's basically written by Lockley also mention servants and the attribution to a cnn journalist does not really help the article in my opinion. If the servants part is further contested, feel free to remove it. Yvan Part (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I haven't read the Britannica article by Lockley. I just went off of the discussion about the source that was attached to the claim, and since nobody seemed to know for certain that it was Lockley who made the claim, I didn't feel attributing it to him was correct. If there's a source you're going to use where Lockley makes the claim, all the better. Brocade River Poems 23:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There are a number of stories around Yasuke in Lockley's and in Lopez-Vera's works, but which don't have corresponding appearances in the contemporaneous Jesuit & Japanese sources and which seem apocryphal. These include the skin scrubbing, the intimate dinners with Nobunaga, and perhaps the servants. The closest I can find to servants is a mention in one of the Jesuit letters (Mexia, 8 October 1581) that Nobunaga sent Yasuke around town with his "private man". But is the "his" referring to Yasuke or Nobunaga? My medieval Portuguese is not strong, and interpreting the text isn't helped by a tendency to write long rambling sentences, but, from the context, it is more likely the latter. Rotary Engine ^talk 06:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that is probably Nobunaga´s man. First, because Yasuke was Nobunaga´s man as well (although I am not sure if in the context "his private man" has specific meaning), and second, the verb "sent" implies that Nobunaga commanded both of them. The mention of servants is an unpublished document that has already been discussed. The source for the scrubbing and the dinners in unknown to me. There is the account of his first meeting Nobunaga, where Yasuke has to remove his upper garment. Perhaps the washing is an interpretation. I also wonder about the money that Yasuke received. Lockely said it made him a rich man, however it is not in the Britannica article. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The mention of servants is an unpublished document that has already been discussed. if the document referred to is the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Shincho Koki, then it does not include any mention of servants. The additional material in that version covers: stipend, name, sayamaki, residence; but not servants.

As for the money, the Jesuit letter that is the primary source is that of Luis Frois, dated 14 April 1581. Rotary Engine ^talk 13:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think it would be nice if the article had the sum listed. It would be nice to contextualize it, but we would probably not be able to find a secondary source for that, or has Lockley done this? I saw an interview where he mentioned the money, but I don’t think he provided context besides to claim that Yasuke was rich. I guessing it was a lot of money for a valet, but not a lot for a Nobunaga. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The sum listed in Frois letter is "dex mil caixas" (10,000 caixas). A caixa in modern Portuguese is a box; but also extents to include ledger, cashier, cash register & payment counter. In Macanese, it also means a small copper coin which is probably closer to the meaning in Frois letter. Japan during the Warring States period used both imported Chinese coins and locally produced coins in copper, silver & gold. See Japanese currency & Mon (currency) for details & references. The buying power varied depending on the quality of the coins, so it is difficult to say how much 10,000 copper coins would be worth. The closest that I've found is a table of shopping item values from the Edo period which indicates a salmon would be worth 250 mon, and a bottle of sake 200 mon. If that's accurate for the earlier Warring States, then 40 fish or 50 bottles. But there's a lot of assumption in that.

Lockley's Britannica article simply mentions "a large sum of money". African Samurai suggests 10 strings of coins weighing 80 pounds; but is not reliable for factual statements. His earlier Japanese translated book has "up to 30kg". Ten thousand mon, at around 3g each, would be 30 kilograms (66 pounds), which accords with Lockley's estimates. Rotary Engine ^talk 19:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Japanese currency, the source I recently added to Koban (coin) might also be of value. It speaks about the periods before and during Tokugawa. I don't know about mon specifically, but various forms of gold, silver and copper were indeed used, presumably in the forms of small sheets (han-kin and han-gin) which were cut and weighed. For weighing the tael or monme unit of weight was used.

Without going into OR, is it possible to judge 10,000 caixas would indeed mean "10000 copper coins" per Portuguese to English translation? SmallMender (talk) 20:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I think equating caixa specifically to mon would be OR, but to a copper coin generally might be more acceptable. But, as always, a source would be better. Lockley's chapter in つなぐ世界史2 includes "... 信長は弥助に褒美を与えることにし、甥である津た信澄を通じて、重さ３０kgに及ぶほどの大量の銅貨を贈った。" (emphasis added) which explicitly states "銅貨" (copper coins). Rotary Engine ^talk 21:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that is enough to say 30 kg of copper coins. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd be comfortable with "10,000 copper coins". Rotary Engine ^talk 01:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rotary Engine, FWIW I agree with @Tinynanorobots that the "private man" is Nobunaga's, in terms of the context and grammar of the original text. The specific Portuguese wording was excerpted and translated earlier here: Talk:Yasuke/Archive_2#c-Eirikr-20240524224800-X0n10ox-20240524024300. Note that this person was described as muito privado / "very private", indicating that this is not "private" in the sense of "belonging to someone, not public" (which doesn't work well with the intensifier muito), but rather "private" in the sense of either "intimate" or "discreet" (as in, someone who was probably very close to Nobunaga, and could be trusted). See also sense 2 here (in Portuguese). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur that Mexia's letter isn't directly supportive of Yasuke having servants of his own; and with your thoughts on the Portuguese. Rotary Engine ^talk 03:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

• Re-reviewing the Britannica article after the rewrite by Lockley (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yasuke), I see this sentence:

In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend.

This is problematic — Ōta's account does not state that Nobunaga either made Yasuke a vassal, nor that Nobunaga gave him servants. See also the relevant Japanese text, translation, and explication, over at Talk:Yasuke/Archive_5#The_relevant_quote_from_the_Sonkeikaku_Bunko_version_of_the_Shinchō_Kōki.

• It is probably reasonable to infer that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal (家臣, kashin) on the basis of paying him a stipend (扶持, fuchi). However, the Ōta text does not state that Yasuke was a kashin: Ōta does not use this word to describe Yasuke.
• However, it is just baffling that Lockley claims that Ōta's text states that Nobunaga gave Yasuke servants. There is no mention of this in any primary text, neither Ōta's nor anyone else's, as far as I'm aware. The closest we might get is in Lourenço Mexía's letter, where he states that "agora o fauorece tanto que o mandou por toda a cidade com hum homem ſeu muito priuado pera que todos ſoubeſſem que elle o amaua / now he [Nobunaga] favors him [Yasuke] so much so that he sent him throughout the city with a very private man of his so that everyone would know that he loved him". The "very private man of his" would have been someone in Nobunaga's employ, not a servant of Yasuke. See also the relevant original text, as excerpted and translated here in the archived "The Tono Notation" subsection.

Unless we can find other sources that back this claim that Nobunaga gave Yasuke servants (independent secondary sources that have done their own research, not just sources that quote or paraphrase Lockley as the CNN article does), I think we need to explicitly attribute any such claim to Lockley. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 09:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support attributing this specific claim to Lockley as well. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Tricks or Good Manners?

The article says that Yasuke preformed tricks. I have noticed other sources say that he had good manners or temperament. Is it possible there is a translation error? Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oka Mihoko points out that existing published translation is in error and that she would translate the relevant passage as "very powerful in strength and talented." (非常に力があり、資質に優れている) [6][7] _dk (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

There's almost certainly translation errors for a number of aspects. I'm currently looking at the various descriptions of Yasuke's meeting with Nobunaga and seeing examples of this.

e.g. Frois, in his letter dated 14 April 1581, uses the words "estranha festa" (strange party) to describe Yasuke disrobing to prove that his skin colour was natural. Solier renders this as "grand feste" (great feast), and begins to separate the words from the disrobing. Lockley in Tsunagu Sekai Shi 2 has 盛大な宴。(grand banquet); in Britannica, more simply, "a banquet", and in "African Samurai" has around 12 pages (e-book) describing the party, conversations & actions of the participants.

The key divergence appears to be in the translation from Frois' Portuguese to Solier's French.

For completeness: Lopez-Vera in both Toyotomi Hideyoshi y Los Europeos and History of the Samurai, and Ota Gyuichi in both the standard & Sonkeikaku Bunko (SBV) versions of the Shincho Koki do not include mention of a party or banquet.

The "good manners or temperament", I recall also being potentially better translated as "in good health", which is how Lopez-Vera's THyLE renders it: "aparencia sana"; sourcing this to Ota Gyuichi's Shincho Koki. The equivalent section in Elisonas & Lamers' translation of that work is rendered as "looked robust and had a good demeanor". The SBV version in Japanese has 彼男器量すくやかにて, (good looks, fine appearance) but Kaneko's book indicates that 器量 is an SBV unique addition; so the other versions would have 彼男すくやかにて, which is more in line with "healthy appearance". And that, in line with comments of Oka, mentioned above, seems a far better translation than alternatives which emphasise beauty or temperament.

I will try to find similar translation chains for the tricks. Rotary Engine ^talk 00:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I found another source that mentions Yasuke. It approaches the subject from the viewpoint of Jesuits and race. They believe he arrived as a slave and translate the "estranha festa" as a strange celebration. The author, Liam Matthew Brockley, specializes in Portuguese and religious history. [8]https://www.google.de/books/edition/Jesuits_and_Race/RlfSEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=jesuits+japan+armed+attendants&pg=PA82&printsec=frontcover Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

What Oka Mihoko refered to is in this dictionary:

[9]https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Vocabulario_portuguez_e_latino/H-NBAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

check on page 293 for expression "boas manhas" which Oka claims this expression to be "very talented" or "had multiple talents"

but this is not proven to be correct translation though, the original manuscript says in portuguese "tinha muitas forcas & algumas manhas boas" and the traditional Japanese translation has been treated the word "manhas" as more like "tricks" or "skills" hence Japanese word "芸".

It seems Oka's claim is to understand the word "manha" as "manner or talent" instead of something of physical techniques.

if it were mean of "good talents" or "good manner(demeanor)" would the writer put the word "algumas";"some" in English equivalent, to count that noun. not to mention that "boas manhas" seem to be 2-word-expression like "fine-manners" or "fine-skills" in that dictionary and the original manuscript is "(algumas) manhas boas". problem is that these 3 words are pretty general and are to be used daily: algumas = some or several, boas = good or fine, manha = skills or manners

so possible literal translation would be

1: "some good skills" or "some skills that were good"

2: "several good manners"

3: "some level of good-manners"

if anyone is familiar with ancient portuguese, please share your thoughts.

• my opnion on Oka's claim:

very strange, Oka's claim is in decisive tone, clearly stating that she found "mis-translation" on her X post, as you can see in the above 2 references.

and, in the latter reference of X, the user of X questions her, is the word "manha" derived from the latin word "manus"? so that manha should be treated as "manners" instead of "skills". and Oka replies she does not know or she is not sure because she is not an expert of Lain or Romance derived languages.

now check it out on the dictionary Oka posted, her decisive claim is based on page 293 and just 1 page before that (in page 292), there is the description of the word "manha" , remember that "boas manhas" is the expression rather than the single word. so the dictionary first states meaning of the word itself and then shows the example-use and expressions related.

the very first line of manha , it clearly says that

Manha: parece que le(?) deriva do latim Manus → it seems that it derives from Latin (word) "Manus"

and yet Oka does not know this, why?

she did not even check what manha as word means, and claimed that the existing translation to be wrong? KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think the meaning of the Latin root is important. I don’t think that counts as ancient Portuguese, it is probably considered early modern- A lot of people make statements in decisive tone, especially on twitter. That dictionary might be too new, and really it would be best to have an expert translate it. The context seems manners, because apparently that was important to the Japanese at the time and is remarked upon by Europeans visiting. Also, from the context, it isn’t clear what skills Yasuke had and would have been seen. However, I don’t know any Portuguese. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, there is no record for content of "algumas manhas boas" which Yasuke had;

what skills Yasuke might have shown or what some-good-manners he was evaluated for.

it is just ,

"He(Yasuke) had A and B , (because of these) Nobunaga liked him ～"

A : clearly is "a lot of physical strength"

B : some (a few 'if counting' or middle degree of 'if not counting'), manhas (skills or manners ?), boas(good, fine)

you can see the translation and manuscript of this section here:

Talk:Yasuke/Archive 2#The Tono Notation

Because of the way manuscript continues, Japanese translation has been

"he was very strong and he could do a few tricks", of course done by the expert at the time,

Oka claimed that this is mistranslation and should be "had multiple good talents" without careful investigation of the very source she refered to.

There is no record of describing Yasuke's character like "good manner or demeanor", which Lockley kept insisting. Other possible expression "器量也" is also thought to be related to his healthy physical appearance. so this "algumas manhas boas" is almost the only key remains un-known, whether manhas might mean skills, manners, or characteristics one might have like calm or smart.

If anyone can show the Italian version of this section that would be helpful because someone said that this Portuguese version is rewritten due to the accident and Italian version remains original though it might not be perfectly equivalent. I am still curious what expression that it used for this part.

I see that this dictionary might not be good to refer, while I cannot find anything better. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 01:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it is difficult if one is translating old-fashioned Portuguese to Japanese and then to English. "Could do a few tricks" and "is talented" are phrases that could mean the same thing, but have different connotations. If Oka was talking on twitter, then it was probably in the context of the reaction to assassin´s creed. Without getting into a discussion on AC, a lot of the characterizations of Yasuke were based on a poor understanding of the historical context and were poorly phrased. If experts were responding to these poorly phrased statements and questions, that might explain their poor answers. In this case, if people were saying that Yasuke was a pet, then him doing tricks sounds to support that, in a way that him being talented does not.

I think we should less worry about what people say on twitter (it is where people put their worse foot forward) and think about the correct translation for the wikipedia article. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

If you dislike the existing translation of "tricks", maybe use "skills" or "performances" it would not twist (much) the meaning of the original text of Portuguese.

Even Oka's dictionary does not suggest the words like "talent, one's future potentials, or demeanor" in the entry of "manha". I can only assume that manha eventually gained the meaning of "manner" because someone with skill is thought to have learnt "manha", hence a person who has manha is like trained-person or skilled-person but not in modern sense of respectful behavior like demeanor instantly.

That dictionary seems to show straight conncections to the obvious "skill" or "ability" rather than invisible characteristics.

Here are some excerpt from page 292-293;

"com manha" : with ability

From "boas manhas" : "dancing, leaping, and all the oher good-manhas" which is inclined to the specific skills or performances.

Note that the other expression

"ma manhas" has "bad habits" as its meaning and this is the closest it gets to the modern sense of "manner" perhaps

check it out yourselves. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 03:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Weapon-bearer

Does anyone know about this weapon bearer thing? This is Yasuke´s only explicitly named duty as a samurai. I haven’t been able to find out any information on this position. Literature I found about different bearers lists them as Monomachi, but none are called weapon-bearer. There are spear-bearers, and if weapons here means defensive weapons, there is also a helmet-bearer. Some sources refer to Yasuke as a sword-bearer, which seems to have been the job of a page. I think this is more important than if he is a samurai, because a samurai is such a wide category, and some authors claim it applies to people Chogen etc. However, weapon bearer is an explicit job. Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The "weapon-bearer" to my understanding comes from an interpretation of a primary source (carried out by an already included secondary source?) of the sentence in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke#cite_note-34

Is it monomachi or monomochi as in 物持ち? The position of weapon-bearer would be dougumochi as in here: https://kotobank.jp/word/%E9%81%93%E5%85%B7%E6%8C%81-580033 SmallMender (talk) 11:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

(Wading back in...)

There is a primary-source quotation from the Sonkeikaku version of the Shinchō Kōki that modern authors have apparently used as grounds for calling Yasuke "weapon-bearer", even though the source text itself doesn't use the specific title 道具持ち (dōgu-mochi). The primary-source text was discussed earlier here: Talk:Yasuke/Archive_4#c-Eirikr-20240725001500-J2UDY7r00CRjH-20240722082300.

@SmallMender, #cite_note_34 doesn't seem to exist as an anchor on the page. If you mean the cite note currently visibly numbered 34, that's the Yahoo! Japan article 【戦国こぼれ話】織田信長が登用した黒人武将・弥助とは、いったい何者なのか. This contains various problems, such as this bit:

信長は弥助を武士として身辺に置き、将来的には城持ちにまで引き立てようとしたという。
Nobunaga kept Yasuke nearby as a bushi [warrior], and was apparently going to promote him in the future to castle-owner.

This is an apparent misunderstanding / misattribution of an episode related in Lourenço Mexía's letter, as excerpted and translated earlier here: Talk:Yasuke/Archive_2#c-Eirikr-20240524224800-X0n10ox-20240524024300. In that letter, Mexía described the gossip around town, that Nobunaga might make Yasuke a tono. But again, this was gossip from around town -- not anything that Mexía attributed to Nobunaga himself.

However, I don't see any other instances of 持ち in the Yahoo! Japan article, nor of the word 道具...? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, it seems like the sources were moved around. I should've used a permanent link. The source I had in mind is this one:

Kaneko, Hiraku (2009). 織田信長という歴史 － 「信長記」の彼方へ [The History of Oda Nobunaga: Beyond the Shinchōki] (in Japanese). Iwanami Shoten. p. 311. ISBN 978-4-585-05420-7.

It is currently used as an in-line citation for the quote from Shinchō Kōki of the Sonkeikaku Bunko (尊経閣文庫). SmallMender (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@SmallMender — ah, yes, in that case, please review my earlier post here (now archived) regarding the specific wording, particularly note 4. In a nutshell: Ōta himself would have known the title 道具持ち (dōgu-mochi, "tool/weapon-bearer"), so his decision to instead describe Yasuke using roundabout wording (「依時御道具なともたされられ候」 / "sometimes he was allowed to / was made to hold/carry the [master's] tools and other items") tells us that Yasuke did not have the "weapon-bearer" title.

As an alternative perspective, since this is apparently the text that appears only in the Sonkeikaku version, and this was possibly added by Ōta Gyūichi's fourth-generation descendant Ōta Yazaemon Kazuhiro (per Professor Kaneko's book), this wording could be understood as an even stronger indication that Yasuke was not acting in any official "weapon-bearer" capacity. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

If Kaneko is specifically saying the text about Yasuke is possibly added later, that should be put in the article. Do you know if dōgu-mochi is generic, or if it has connotations of a specific weapon. It seems some think it means sword and others think it means spear. Some of the few sources I found on google books are about castle towns. Unfortunately, they only allow snippets, so I can’t say what they say about the role, but maybe it is a position for daimyos, or just another name for a spear carrier. One of the few sources I found with the term uses it to describe Yasuke, calling him a porter of Nobunaga´s straight headed yari spear as well as a shikan samurai. https://www.google.de/books/edition/Samurai_Road/0jvJDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=d%C5%8Dgu-mochi&pg=PT197&printsec=frontcover Despite the few secondary sources on Yasuke, there seems some disagreement about him. It shows how much is interpretation and how it is communicated with confidence. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

御道具　　　　When saying "item" politely

なと　　　　　etc.

もたさせられ　be made to have

候　　　　　　A word used to politely end a sentence

He was sometimes assigned the responsibility of carrying tools by Nobunaga or his close aides.

When talking about what tools are, weapons are most likely.

However, Nobunaga did not always fight.

He would ride around the territory on horseback, practice martial arts, and sometimes hold tea ceremonies with his acquaintances.

Just before the Honnoji Incident, Nobunaga entered the temple with several dozen of his close associates, carrying 38 tea ceremony utensils (tea bowls, tea whisks, etc.).

He then invites several celebrities as guests and holds a tea ceremony using the tools.

A tea ceremony cannot be held with just tools. Tea leaves and sweets are also needed. All of these are considered tools.

Money, clothes, and other daily necessities are also tools.

This goes without saying, but they probably transported it in a box or something.

Yasuke was said to be a strong man, so he would have been ideal for carrying heavy loads.

I think we can only imagine what they were carrying.

It must not be dropped and broken.

It's true that Yasuke had earned at least that level of trust.

Honestly, there may not be much point in thinking about this. Tanukisann (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I had forgotten.

In the early Edo period, special roles like this were given to certain samurai.

Yaribugyo, the person in charge of carrying the spears and swords used by the master.

Flag magistrate, in charge of showing the enemy and ally that the master is here.

Usually, in historical dramas, it is the page who holds the sword or spear near the master.

However, in times of war, this role was taken over by a samurai who had received special orders.

But as the world returned to peace, this role was soon abolished.

This is about the Tokugawa family, so it may not apply to the Oda family. Tanukisann (talk) 18:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I have read that Yaribugyo is the commander of spears. Ceremonial spear-carriers seem to have been common for persons of rank. When Captain Saris went from Hirado with Adams to meet the Shogun, a spear bearer was provided to carry the captain’s pike "as was the custom." https://archive.org/details/captainjvoyageof00saririch/page/120/mode/2up?q=pike

A black spear bearer is also seen in the Nanban byōbu in the article.

I was under the assumption that dōgu meant weapon in the context. I have read that the Japanese placed a lot of value on etiquette and ceremony. Specific things had specific people to carry them. It would be strange if the same person carried both Nobunaga´s sword and his tea set, especially since he had so many servants, but also because he would have his swords with him all the time, and probably one of his spear-bearers would be also around.

Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:51, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Kaneko doesn't say it definitively. Really, it's more of the same that Yuichi Goza states. Kaneko says that the possibility cannot be discounted that the reference to Yasuke was taken from the Ietada Diary, but also says that because the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript also includes a lot details of Yasuke's private life versus his public life, noting しかしながら、右に掲げたすべての増補記事を書写過程でつけ加えられた創作 として無視 してしまうこともむずかしいに違いない which I translated as However, it would be difficult to simply disregard all of the above as creations added in the process of transcription. and that とりわけ巻五冒頭の記事のうち二月十三日条の鹿狩記事など、表向きというよりむしろプライベートな信長の行動を記述 した記録という意味で、逆に真実味を帯びているといえないだろうか。 and my translation In particular, the account at the beginning of the fifth volume, which describes a deer hunt on February 13, is more a record of Nobunaga's private activities rather than his outwardly public ones.

Realistically Kaneko is saying that some of the accounts of more minute details of Nobunaga's life that are only present in the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript, but aren't in other manuscripts, are likely true because they deal with Nobunaga's private affairs rather than stuff that was widely publicly known. I doubt he intended this sentiment to extend to the Yasuke claim, but my doubts are irrelevant to what goes in the Wikipedia article. That said, if you wanna throw in that Kaneko believes it possible the account was added later on (or at the very least, says it isn't something that can be ruled out), go forth and do it. You can find the quotes from the Kaneko book above. Brocade River Poems 00:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

That seems to follow the pattern from academic sources I have read. The scholar will point out potential problems with a primary source, but then say why they say it is still useful. I believe Goza made a YouTube video where he goes in depth about Yasuke. He deserves credit for talking to the public the same way he would talk to scholars, but it is easy to misunderstand if you aren’t used to experts expressing doubts. Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Here is one of my sources: Warfare in Japan[10] There are other sources that list the followers of a mounted samurai that are similar. Neither a sword bearer nor an equipment bearer is listed among them. Interestingly, the author puts "allows" in quotes suggesting perhaps that saying X was allowed to carrier his master's Y, might have been a typical phrasing. https://www.google.de/books/edition/An_Unabridged_Japanese_English_Dictionar/4WwuAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=d%C5%8Dgu-mochi&pg=PA177&printsec=frontcover This Dictionary says Dogumochi means Yarimochi. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I may just be misunderstanding what you are trying to use the source to suggest but from what I can tell reading the source it is referring to the Edo period rather than Sengoku Jidai. I think this is an important distinction given the context of the very rigid hierarchy established by the Bakufu reforms of the Tokugawa being discussed and how the text makes explicit mention of them when distinguishing the types of retainers. Furthermore it is stated on page 128 that "As 'bearers' (monomochi) their duty was faithfully to carry on to the battlefield and protect the objects assigned to them." Though the text on page 127 makes note of what a retinue was allowed to consist of, those reforms were from the later period, and it is explicitly stated in the context of individual cavalry soldiers rather than in the circumstances of a Diamyo or a higher ranking Samurai. In this light, it is possible that the Sakai house's cavalry under the reform were only permitted to have a spear bearer - rather than this being applicable to higher ranks as well. Though I am ignorant of the full details, it was a substantial part of the reforms of the Hideyoshi and early Tokugawa to regulate who could use certain weapons. Relm (talk) 10:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)