Talk:The Twelfth

Sectarian

Following the edit which changed "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." to "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose what they see as sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." I am beginning to wonder about the way the word "sectarian" is used. Surely an organisation which excludes members of a given sect (and I don't mean unitarians) and has the object of thwarting the plans and objectives of that sect must itself be sectarian in nature. There can be no doubt that the marches on the Twelfth are sectarian in intention, nature and result. Nor does the Orange Order itself very vehemently deny that it is sectarian. I believe that "what they see as sectarian" is a weasel phrase; the marches are sectarian. It is up to us to decide whether sectarianism is a bad thing or not. A better phrase would be "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the marches on the grounds thatthey are sectarian) and some of the unionist...". --Muinchille 16:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the weasel words should go. The Orange Order is very openly sectarian. The whole point of some of the parades in NI is to drive home sectarianism. That can be stated in NPOV fashion. DMorpheus 17:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Canada

I would just like to point out, there are no significant orange parades in Canada in this day and age, even in newfoundland. I'm not trying to stir up an argument I just don't like canada being lumped in with sectarianism in any form. I know the Orange Order had a fundemantal influence on Ontario as well as any number of other provinces but it's still not right to put Canadian links to a certain sect that has little or nothing to do with the nation in it's modern form. I will freely admit I'm a canadian of norn irish catholic descent, but I would honestly argue for any un-biasedness (i know im making up words) in any shape form or fashion. I feel a bit stupid as I've met loads of people from the north of ireland in my days from both sides of the slim divide and in these days these silly arguments mean fuck all in people's day to day lives, the only point I'm trying to make is don't tie canada into this fading argument from centuries past, I can't think of a more forward thinking country than this land and I don't personally appreciate the mud slinging with our name's involved, let sleeping dogs lie. easy

The article does not suggest anything about the prominence of the Order in Canadian society or the 'significance' of the parades, so I don't see that this user has any kind of point. At any rate, it certainly is accurate that there are parades held in Canada. I attended last year's Twelfth parade just outside Ottawa, which consisted of at least one hundred. I couldn't tell you the exact size of any others, but they are not infrequent - about a dozen are scheduled for this July in Ontario, including one in downtown Toronto for the 15th.

--Yipperson 04:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Scotland

I've changed "Great Britain" to "England" in the section about the Twelfth being celebrated outside the noth of Ireland. That's because although it seems to have largely disappeared in England, I think that there are still parades in Scotland. Indeed, the photograph of a parade at Larkhall rather bears this out. Figeac (talk) 15:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Development?

The Twelfth has and has had quite a profound impact on Northern Ireland life, as this has been the day when things explode, both literally and metaphorically. I think this article needs a bit of development to reflect the impact it has on Northern Ireland. Mouse Nightshirt 22:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed Text from the Orange Order article

I've removed the following text from the Orange Order article. An editor may wish to integrate this into the article.

''The Twelfth'' however remains a deeply divisive issue, not least because of allegations of triumphalism and anti-Catholicism against the Orange Order in the conduct of its Walks and criticism of its behaviour towards Roman Catholics. Most Orange Order Walks in Ireland are uncontroversial; Walks in the Republic of Ireland, notably in [[Rossnowlagh]], [[County Donegal]], require minimal policing and attract non-Orange Order members, including Roman Catholics, to watch. However at a few flashpoints, Walks have become highly controversial. Many of the bands hired by the Order for the parades openly advertise their association with [[loyalist]] [[paramilitary]] groups (responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Catholics) with flags and banners.

[[Image:lambegdrumming.jpg|thumb|left|450px|Lambeg Drum competition at County Tyrone 12th]]

The very first Orange parades were held in [[1796]], in different venues in [[County Armagh]]. The [[Northern Star]] newspaper reported that an Orangeman by the name of M'Murdie, died of stab wounds following clashes with the local yeomanry, in [[Aghalee]]. The next year, [[1797]], fourteen people were killed in disturbances during an Orange parade in [[Stewartstown]], [[Tyrone]].

To Orange Order members, the "right" to Walk anywhere on the "Queen's highway" is of fundamental importance in upholding the principles of the "Glorious Revolution". To critics, their demand to walk their ''traditional routes'', even some of those which have become Catholic areas, is seen as provocative, triumphalist and as asserting the supremacy of Protestants in [[Ulster]].

JASpencer 22:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Can't see why you took this stuff out - it might be fairer to innocents who know little of our affairs to see all sides of the argument fully presented. In a way the two points of view are the information. Trying to edit away one side or another does no service to either side. Personally I've always believed that Unioinism should be given the chance to expound its views as much as possible.--Muinchille 11:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• There's no problem with including the text about intimidation and violence associated with the Twelfth, but it must be properly cited and avoid weasel words. If you can find quotations and news sources to back up the claims about "respectable" Protestants fleeing NI for the Twelfth, please add these to the article. Thanks. Demiurge 12:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

They don't flee, they avoid. I've met loads of them down here and on holiday in Spain. Go to Alicante and listen to the accents - no citation required - direct personal experience. How about "middle class" instead of respectable then? Like me, you probably think your point of view is perfectly reasonable and balanced, and avoids "weasel words" like "perceived sectarianism". --Muinchille 12:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Please take a look at WP:CITE and WP:NOR. Personal experience and anecdotes are not an acceptable source, sorry. This may seem strange, but Wikipedia is not interested in "truth", it's interested in verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Demiurge 12:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable enough - just look around the North - nobody there. Try http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/jun19_tourism_sees_twelfth_in_new_light.php --Muinchille 12:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

and

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/07/14/shead_1.htm

There it is - most Northerners regard the whole thing as foolish and distasteful, and leave. Good luck to those trying to persuade people to come to the North for cultural reasons around the twelfth. They will surely need it!

• Thanks for finding those references, I've added them into the main article. Demiurge 13:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. This is better. The original article made the whole thing sound like an inoffensive and innocent ramble through the countryside. Please God, one day it will be.--Muinchille 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Now much better.--Muinchille 14:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to re-edit this article and take out the references to a mass exodus of "middle class" protestants from Northern Ireland during the marching season. It is not verifiable and the article cited does not back up the claims made. One could also argue that as the article itself appeared in a paper with a nationalist slant. wikipedia is not a forum for your anti-orange or anti-loyalist beliefs see "foolish and distasteful".

More removed text

From the Orange Order article. Please incorporate this as you see fit:

The main parade of the year is the annual "Twelfth" of July celebrations which commemorate the Battle Of The Boyne and the victory of King William Of Orange after whom the Order is named. The lodges are usually accompanied by various marching bands playing flutes, fifes, accordions, bagpipes and brass instruments. This parade often involves thousands of marchers at each of the many locations and draws crowds of spectators.

JASpencer 22:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 11:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

United Irishmen

In context, it should should not be forgotten that many of the United Irishmen--the driving force behind the 1798 rebellion--were Ulster Protestants, including much of the leadership.--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Lambeg Drums

It is now time that we recognized the Ulster Protestant tradition as part of Ireland's cultural heritage. (After all, the 1916 Rising was commemorated in Dublin this year (2006). In this context, can anyone please tell me the origins of the Lambeg drums? Thank you!--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Check out the article on Lambeg Drums. There is very little that doesn't have a wikipedia article! Afn 11:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Peadar. Whilst carrying out my masters research in the university of groningen I happened across some interesting documents that point to the origin of the lambeg drums and their malacca playing sticks. Im new to adding information to this site, and therefore cannot see any manner to get in contact with you. sincerely, [email protected]

Sectarianism

"Sectarianism refers (usually pejoratively) to a rigid adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination. It often implies discrimination, denunciation, or violence against those outside the sect. The term is most often used to refer to religious sectarianism, involving conflict between members of different religions or denominations of the same religion. It is also frequently used to refer to political sectarianism, generally on the part of a tight-knit political faction or party."

The above is quoted directly from wikipedia's own article on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian

To say that the Orange Order are anything other than sectarian or that to say so is merely a point of view is akin to saying the same about the sky being blue or the Nazi Hollocaust of the Jews. The order does not allow membership to Catholics. The marches are inciteful as is plainly evidenced by the songs the marchers sing:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040623084914/ireland.yi.org/Croppies_lie_down.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boyne_Water

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiOLDFLUTE;ttOLDFLUTE.html

That's just a sample.

Where the real bone of contention lies is in the fact that for many years these marches, with their deeply offensive songs, were traditionally routed through Catholic ghettoes and boroughs where they caused deep resentment. This is not to say that if they didn't march through Catholic area, they would not be incitefull, as they quite plainly incite religious hatred. Since the establishment of the Peace Process many mechanisms have come into place giving the Catholic community a stronger voice and so the Orange Order has been forced to reroute many of the more controversial parades. The history of Irish Unionism in Northern Ireland can only be described as shamefull and ugly, to claim otherwise can only be nieve or else is just a smoke screen to further the sectarian nature of Unionist politics. The Orange Marches and celebrations of the Twelfth are a hangover from this tradition of segragation which are perpetuated by those who would like to see a return to the good old days of Gerrymandering and Human rights abuse.

In April 1963, when the South African minister of justice, Belthazar Johannes Vorster was introducing The Coercion Bill he publicly stated that he “would be willing to exchange all the legislation of this sort for one clause of the "Northern Ireland Special Powers Act". Vorster, in 1966, became prime minister of South Africa and then president.In fact the architects of apartheid in South Africa often quoted the Special Powers Act to justify their own repressive regime. (see South Africa and the Rule of Law, South African department of foreign affairs, April, 1968). This should give some idea as to the slant of power in Northern Ireland up until the last decade.

Happily things are changing with the Peace Process and that Unionists are slowly but surely losing their overall majority and the power to perpetuate Civil Rights abuses unchallenged. Maybe one day there will be peace in the North not until it's history is recognised for what it is.

Mo Conyeelock 18:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What has this soapbox crap got to do with this article please?

(BTW - many unionists took part in the Civil Rights marches before NICRA was hijacked by a certain organisation - Civil Rights for ALL). --Mal 06:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

I disagree with the proposal to merge the article Orange Walk into this one. Although the festivities of the Twelfth do include many Orange Walks throughout the world, Orange Walks take place at other times of the year. I'm not even sure that the Orange Walk originated specifically for the Twelfth - wasn't it the Battle of Aughrim originally? --Mal 09:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mal. The Twelfth is just one of many annual Orange marches, and not even always the biggest one. It would help if the Orange Walk page was expanded. --Helenalex 20:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I proposed the merger, but actually take no position on the question, due to a degree of ignorance on the topic. A quick read seemed to indicate that the Orange Walk was an event that took place on The Twelfth, and so the merger made sense. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Needing sources

History "Irish Protestants commemorated several events from the 17th century onwards, celebrating the survival and triumph of their community in the face of the Irish Rebellion of 1641 and the Williamite war in Ireland (1689-91)." This surly needs to be referenced? For example "Irish Protestants," is that all "Irish Protestants." ?

"The first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641 rebellion on October 23, when it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." Now is this right "first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641." Even then we had marches? "it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." This needs a reference.

"The Twelfth parades of the early 19th century often led to riots and public disorder, so much so that the Orange Order and the Twelfth were suppressed in the 1830s and 40s." NOW THIS I can reference, if there is no objection?

Over all its not a bad article, but could be improved? --Domer48 12:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If you feel you can make improvements, jump in. Despite the bunfight currently happening in the Orange Institution talk page, there generally don't seem to be many objections to statements which aren't obviously POV or controversial. --Helenalex 20:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Various edits

There were some changes to the recent edits I made to this article. I have made individual edits either restoring or adjusting my previous edits. Please feel free to discuss any changes I have made prior to merely reverting them (and thus engaging in an edit war), here.

I have described my own rationale in the edit summaries: the source I used described "members of both communities". It did not specify many, some, few, or all; the Union Jack is the common name for the British national flag; the flag of Northern Ireland is the name people use to describe the flag of Northern Ireland (which is also known as the Ulster Banner when part of the Northern Irish coat of arms) - it is no more or less "official" than the flag of Scotland (also known, by the way, as the St Andrew Saltire.. though there doesn't seem to be any objection to using "Flag of Scotland" in the text) or the flag of England. --Setanta 07:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

When you wrote 'members of both communities' it implied (presumably accidentally) that Protestants and Catholics participated equally. This was clearly not the case, so I changed it to read that 'some' Catholics participated. Personally I think that even this overstates it - a more accurate statement would probably be that some watched, a very small number participated - but since I doubt there are no actual figures out there I can live with 'some'. Does your source actually say that Catholics were equal participants in the Twelfth, or just that many watched the parades?

As far as I'm concerned the Union Jack/Flag thing is a non issue, either way.

The flag of Scotland is flown by its parliament, and even if it has no legal status it is not contested in the way that the Ulster Banner is. Calling it the Flag of Northern Ireland implies that it has some kind of official status even if it isn't legally the national flag, and also that a large majority of the population accepts it as their flag. --Helenalex (talk) 09:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

There was no accident when I wrote "members of both communities". Nor was there any suggestion of participation which was in any way "equal", "unequal", "in part" or "as a whole". The wording I have used now in the sentence is identical to that of the source and the context described by the source.

If I contest the Scottish Banner, does that mean that it is therefore contested? Calling it the Flag of Northern Ireland is calling it by the name it is most often called by. Whether you or I think that implies 'officialdom' or not, is neither here nor there really - it just is. I would suggest that a "large majority" of the population does accept it as their flag, just as a "large majority" of the population of Scotland regard their 'unofficial' flag as their flag. Either way, it is called the flag of Northern Ireland, whether 'official', 'unofficial', 'legal', 'illegal' or what ever other term you like to throw at it. Calling it the "Ulster Banner", although it has a history of being known as the Ulster Banner in the coat of arms, is a relatively new thing confined mainly to Wikipedia and a couple of flags website that Wikipedia editors had contacted when the flag issue came to a head on Wikipedia. Throughout the Troubles, before and afterword, the flag was called the flag of Northern Ireland. --Setanta 18:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Setanta This has been talked to death over a number of articles and talk pages. "I would suggest that a "large majority" of the population does accept it as their flag..." That is the main problem, it is just your opinion. "Calling it the Flag of Northern Ireland is calling it by the name it is most often called by." This again is just your opinion. The Ulster Banner is not and never was the flag of Northern Ireland. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so your source may say, 'members of both communities participated' but in the context of this page that implies some kind of equal participation, even if that's not what you intend to imply. --Helenalex (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The Prime Minister's Spokesman says "The position in relation to Northern Ireland was that it did not have a national flag". British Government papers establish the flags of England, Scotland and Wales as national flags, while saying "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status". Since the government you are supposedly "loyal" to says Northern Ireland has no national flag, your position of "it's the flag of Northern Ireland wah wah wah" is untenable. Having looked at your edit history I see you cause the same repeated disruption across dozens of pages, and move on to disrupt another page once your attempt to make point of view changes with regards to the use of or name of that flag has been prevented on one page. I believe it is time for administrator intervention to prevent this continued disruption, does anyone agree? O Fenian (talk) 16:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian thats it in a nut shell. This issue has been done to death, to keep harping on at this stage is disruption plain and simple. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

While I agree with O Fenian and Domer about the Ulster banner, I don't think that Setanta is being especially disruptive by the standards of Northern Ireland pages. Domer, you've seen far worse than this - s/he made a (let's assume) good faith edit, and although it descended into an edit war, the fact that s/he started this discussion suggests some kind of desire to work with the community. The edit warring seems to have stopped so I suggest we let it go.

O Fenian - thank you for the references, but belittling people you're annoyed with is not constructive. --Helenalex (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

"past" nationalist areas?

The source Mooretwin has added also slightly contradicts his wording, as it says "Nationalists began venting their fury that the police had allowed a "sectarian" march to pass through their area". I do think "through" on its own is more correct and makes the point that the most contentious parades go through nationalist areas, not just past them. O Fenian (talk) 11:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Except they don't. The parade in question doesn't go through a nationalist area: it goes past "nationalist shops" as the reference says. Nationalist opposition to the parades is not confined to those which go "through" nationalist areas - therefore it is more accurate to refer to parades which go through and past, since they also oppose the latter category. (As an aside, I can't personally think of any which actually do go THROUGH a nationalist area - only ones which go past such an area.) Mooretwin (talk) 11:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The reference to "Nationalists [...] venting their fury that the police had allowed a "sectarian" march to pass through their area" refers to the nationalist perception of the march. The report itself only refers to it going past nationalist shops. The perception and the reality are different here, as indicated in the source. Mooretwin (talk) 11:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Garvaghy Road? "past nationalist shops" does not equal "past nationalist area" though. O Fenian (talk) 11:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Is Garvaghy Road not a main road off which the nationalist estate is situated? The road doesn't actually go through the estate, but rather past it. In any case, in the spirit of compromise I am no longer objecting to the inclusion of "through", rather I have edited to include "past" in addition to "through", since the objections do not relate merely to Orange parades going through nationalist areas, but also those which go past, e.g. the parade up the Crumlin Road which passes the Ardoyne.

As for "past nationalist shops", this is accurate, as the parade passes the shops but not the nationalist area itself from which the protestors hail. Also, the fact that the journalist elected to refer to the shops rather than a residential district, is significant in itself - indicating that the parade doesn't actually go through a nationalist area.

"Through and past" appears to meet both our concerns, and appears to be a good example of reaching consensus. Very disappointing if you are digging your heels in. Mooretwin (talk) 12:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Origins, Aughrim & Calendars

Hello from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. This is a small note on a small point relating to calendars and the British tradition and that of continental time-keeping of the day. The switch from the Julian to the Gregorian calenders brought with it a change of ten days. In all of the archival letters I have discovered (transcribed and translated) here in Noordeinde Palace and in the States-Provincial archival-depositories, the letters written by the Dutch officers serving on the Ireland island were always dated twice on the header above page one, each date ten days apart. This is because the difference in British Isles time and Continental (the Julian and the Gregorian calenders) time was ten days. That implies that the 'bringing forward' of British Isles time to Continental time (the 'Inter gravissimas' calender of Pope Gregory XIII of 1582) brought with it an addition of ten days to the celebrations formerly held on July 1st, relating to the Battle of the Boyne that took place on that date. That this, in fact, coincided with the very Eve of Aughrim's July 12th (in the Julian, or old, calender), I believe, served only to magnify the actual event itself, for those that lived 'in those times', i.e. on the cusp of the transgression from old time to new, the Julian to the Georgian calenders, in one lifetime. Can you all imagine how tumultuous a changeover that would be today? We would all be dancing 12 hours out of kilter in 12 months time if that were visited upon us today! In the previous decade I visited a place near to Aughrim, a town called Ball in a Sloe, of County Galway (aptly called the graafschaap of the Tribal People), when the local indigens were holding a livestock festival of great affair, and once there I offered a local radio station presenter an interview in connection with my research on this subject in in the Kingdom of the Netherlands. You may listen to a digital recording of that interview at the following location: |Ballinasloe Radio|Battle of Aughrim Series Pt.1| It is my endearing memory that they are most uninterested about it all, and would rather it all just went away - notwithstanding the many opportunities for tourism their little-leprechaun treasure represents. It is my understanding, however, that the forces of Dublin Castle are altogether more interested in promoting the site at the other (rather inconsequential skirmish) at the Co Louth site: that is more proximite to those powers-that-be in the southern statelet, and which more often than not, approaches its many adversaries under the guise of the indigens' laws, which they (naturally enough) control completely. All of the land surrounding the Wald Disney showpiece site at the Skirmish of the Boyne was, equally naturally, rezoned for the purposed of the multi-million investment of the Office of Public Works, under the command of the younger brother of the Leader of the Irish Republic, Patrick Bartholomew "Bertie" Ahern, TD, An Taoiseach, the Minister Noel Ahern TD (of the day). Barentsz (talk) 23:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Bonfire picture

The picture of a "bonfire preparation" is nothing more than a pile of rubble. I'm no fan of The Twelfth, but many bonfires are quite well structured for safety and stability, and that should be acknowledged in the imagery chosen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.246.209 (talk) 08:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Dates of observance

The article mentions only the 12th (or its substitute Monday if falling on a weekend), but it appears to be a 2-day holiday, as most businesses are closed in N.Ireland on the 13th as well. Unfortunately, other than the US Embassy website [1], where they list the holidays for the Consulate in Belfast, I can't find an official source for this. Slowmover (talk) 14:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

2010, 2011, 2012 riots

I thought there were riots in 2010, 2011 and 2012 because of loyalist parades for the Twelfth in Ardoyne. 2010: 55 PSNI wounded, 2011: 25 PSNI wounded, 2012: 30 PSNI wounded in 24 hours. Why does the article say the parades were peaceful in the last few years? --Nicholas Urquhart (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

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