Talk:Slovenian Youth Theatre

Article title

Moved from my talk page. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 20:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Hi Eleassar, can you undo the change you made from Mladinsko Theatre to Slovene Youth Theatre as it is not appropriate. The name of the theatre is never translated literally, in all serious publications, festivals etc. only Mladinsko Theatre is being used.

Thank you very much.

All the best,

Tomaz Toporisic — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupilija (talk • contribs) 14:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll talk to other editors and will move the article back if there will be consensus about it. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 14:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, here are some links showing the usual usage of the theatre's name, it ia also the names used in our official homepage:

http://en.mladinsko.com/home/

http://www.culture.si/en/Mladinsko_Theatre http://www.eepap.org/web/english/institution-full-page/-/asset_publisher/hNg6/content/mladinsko-theatre-ljubliana-slovenia http://artactmagazine.ro/perforations-new-york-3.html http://www.onda.fr/en/spotting-new-artists.php?spectacle_id=40849

Tomaz Toporisic, dramaturg of Mladinsko Theatre — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.35.54 (talk) 21:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I don't see consensus to move the article back. Please see User talk:Doremo#Slovene Youth Theatre. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 21:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

All of the theater links offered above also contain quite serious English grammar and spelling errors; it's obvious that they were never looked at by a native English speaker. As such, they're really not helpful or informative for good English usage of the theater name. (I'm not trying be critical, just objectively pointing out that they are very un-English in many ways.) Doremo (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I would't like to offend you, but who gave you the right to change the official name of the theatre in English language. As far as you collegue is concerned, STA and another example of the usage of Slovene Youth Theatre are not serious. I kindly asked you to change the name of the theatre, but you decided not to do it. How comes? Nadaljeval bom kar v slovenščini, saj za oba userja piše, da dobro obvladata slovenščino. Še enkrat vaju v imenu Slovenskega mladinskega gledališča prosim, da povrneta članek o gledališču v prvotno stanje angleške variante imena, saj vama vajin položaj po mojem mnenju ne daje nobene moralne pravice znotraj Wikipedije, da spremintata utečene stvari. Kar se tiče strani, ki sem jih navedel, raje ne bi govorili o kvaliteti angleščine, saj nas ne zanima good English usage ampak uraden prevod imena gledališča, ki ga v SMG uveljavljamo prav na vseh festivalih. Skratka, očitno je šlo za šum v komunikaciji in prosim vaju, da ga popravita. V nasprotnem primeru bom moral vztrajati naprej.

Hvala, Tomaz Toporisic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.156.44 (talk) 12:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Just another thing. How can you claim culture.si has no language editor? I cannot take this seriously. All the best.

pupilija

 http://www.culture.si/en/Mladinsko_Theatre  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupilija (talk • contribs) 13:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC) 

Please, write in English, because other users watch this page too. The article was moved to this title, because it is good English as found in reliable sources and because it is the standard way of naming of articles about Slovene organisations and other entities. No official or unofficial permission is needed to edit Wikipedia, and official names are not always followed (for a general discussion of article titles, see WP:AT). If you disagree with the move, the correct procedure is to use WP:RM. By the way, don't take this disagreement as a personal thing - we're glad that you've decided to constructively contribute to the project and hope you'll like it enough to stay. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 13:09, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I believe WP:AT clearly sums up the issue. WP:ON may also be useful. If a concrete example is helpful, the St. Clement of Ohrid University of Sofia is listed in Wikipedia under a fluent English name, whereas its "official" name is in broken English: Sofia University St. Kliment Ohridski. I don't know who copyedits the cited culture.si page, but it's clearly not a native English speaker because of the many quite basic semantic, syntactic, and stylistic errors. I'd also like to repeat that your contributions are welcome. Doremo (talk) 15:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I did have a close look at WP:AT abd WP:ON. But stil do not agree with both of you. The example of St. Clement of Ohrid University of Sofia is a good one, but does not hold water. There is nothing wrong gramatically with Mladinsko Theatre. A better comparison would be with Bolshoy Theatre. Nobody translates Bolshoy, or Maly Theatre from St.Petersburg, and we would like it to be like that also with Mladinsko Theatre. Everybody agrees with that, La Mama in New York, festivals in Europe and America. So does also Abbey Theatre in Dublin: http://books.google.si/books?id=ZskdYg4H-HsC&pg=PA366&lpg=PA366&dq=midsummer+night%27s+dream+abbey+theatre+mladinsko&source=bl&ots=qtO4j-8LFK&sig=GrSreyti7lIfhBzvepGSz-gjEZw&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=Er4qUMapOa314QSk-YGgCw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=midsummer%20night%27s%20dream%20abbey%20theatre%20mladinsko&f=false

Why should we not use it also for Wikipedia? (talk —Preceding undated comment added 21:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

La Mama and Irish Times, Festival Transameriques links:

http://www.lamama.org/archives/2001_2002/SilenceSilenceSilence.htm http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-24743125.html http://www.fta.qc.ca/en/shows/2012/damned-be-the-traitor-of-his-homeland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupilija (talk • contribs) 21:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I've already mentioned Bolshoi as a notable exception. In this case I still favor using the more fully English name (which is also found in reliable English-language sources) rather than basing the name on an exception. Slovene Youth Theatre satisfies the goals of both naturalness and consistency (because of the parallels cited here) as well as precision because it conveys the meaning of the name. Consider also WP:EN. Doremo (talk) 03:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but cannot agree with you. How can you find STA a reliable source and Irish Times an unreliable source? How can you claim the critics of the performance are unreliable sources? Can you list me more reliable English sources for your argumentation? Slovene Youth Theatre is used mostly in cases when the speakers are ignorant of the history of the Mladinsko Theatre. So I kindly ask you once more to read carefully my argumentation and ask some other collegues who might have a clearer picture of Mladinsko as well as the history of Slovene theatre. I do agree the English translation of the name should be used as a part of the description of Mladinsko Theatre, but I do think there is no need to move the article from Mladinsko Theatre to Slovene Youth Theatre. --Pupilija (talk) 13:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone referred to The Irish Times as unreliable. Consider also WP:EN: "Sometimes, English usage is divided. For example, US newspapers generally referred to the Olympics in Torino, following official handouts. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world referred to it taking place in Turin." This is presumably what The Irish Times did; they likely simply copied the theater name from whatever material they were provided with. I agree that English usage is divided in this case, but also feel that, of the two options (Slovene Youth Theatre, Mladinsko Theater), the first is preferable because it is more accurate (it represents the full Slovene name), it is more transparent, it is more natural (per parallel examples such as Bryantsev Youth Theatre, Mostar Youth Theatre), it is more consistent (cf. Ljubljana City Theatre, not Mesto Theatre), it is attested in reliable sources (STA, Ramet, Fulbright), and it is more English (mladinsko not an English adjective). It has good credentials. If Mladinsko Theatre is widespread in native English sources then it is fair to include in the lede (as currently); i.e., "The Slovenian Youth Theatre or Mladinsko Theatre ..." Doremo (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Eleassar, I also suggest moving (or copying) this discussion to the page Talk:Slovenian Youth Theatre. Doremo (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Doremo, thank you for your comments and explanations. I just wanted to state Irish Times is a more reliable source than STA as far as the usage of English is concerned. And I agree with you that English usage is divided in this case. And as I happen to be professionally linked to the history of theatre, I would like to contextualize for you a bit the usage of the Mladinsko Theatre's name. Established in 1950's as Mladinsko gledališče, it was historically one of the few Eastern European theatres, specialized in theatre for young audiences that transformed itself into a highly experimental theatre that is no longer focusing its productions on performances for young audiences. Therefore the English translation can be misleading. The theatre as well as the theatre scholars therefore mostly decide to use the Slovene adjective mladinsko instead of youth. And this has been a practice since 1980s. I do agree that we should include the lede, as I did this afternoon, but advocate nevertheless for the inverted situation: Mladinsko Theatre or Slovenian Youth Theatre. The examples you gave are nice, but both theatres still produce mostly performances for young audiences.--Pupilija (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

If mladinsko is problematic, then the theater should probably consider changing its Slovene name. Otherwise I see no difficulty with "youth" because that is exactly what mladinsko means. After all, the French Quarter in New Orleans is no longer French, but is nonetheless Французский квартал in Russian (not Френч квартал), and the New World is no longer new, but is nonetheless Novi svet in Slovene (not New svet). It is very common for the functions of constructs to depart from the denotative semantics of their names. 19:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You are really very good at farfetched metaphors and advicess, don't you think you slightly exagerate with your patronising approach? I do not see any sense in discussing this topic with you as you twist around my arguments. Maybe somebody new, maybe another editor that is more acquainted with the world of the treatre should join in. Can you suggest somebody? Thank you.--Pupilija (talk) 19:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

If you prefer Slovene examples, there are no more cobblers at the Cobblers' Bridge and no more butchers at the Butchers' Bridge, yet we do not refer to the "Čevljarski Bridge" or "Mesarski Bridge" as a result. Similarly, if the theater "is no longer focusing its productions on performances for young audiences" this does not change what the Slovene name literally means. Doremo (talk) 20:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

As I said, why not talk about theatre names if we have been discussing one for the two days. Čevljarski most is not an appropriate comparison. You said Bolshoi theatre is a notable exeption ... What about Maly Theatre? How comes that Wikipedia did not change its name to Small Theatre? Another bad English usage? Or did they just stick to the common usage?--Pupilija (talk) 20:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Maly Theatre is also quite an old usage, going back to at least 1936. Soviet-produced English material also made reference to the Little Theatre as early as 1928. I do not know the history or frequencies of the competing usages. You're welcome to raise the question at the Maly Theatre talk page. Doremo (talk) 03:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Doremo and Pupilija. I happened to follow your debate and would like to point out that in a way you are both right ... Nevertheless as a French theatergoer well acquainted with the Mladinsko performances I would anyway prefer the Mladinsko Theatre usage as it is quite known in theatrical circles. Nevertheless I would include in the lade also Slovenian Youth Theatre. With a very good book published on the history of Mladinsko Theatre in 2005 as well as most of the articles and critics on performances of this theatre in US, Europe and elsewhere I think this would be a most appropriate solution. In France Mladinsko is also known as Théâtre Mladinsko and not as Théâtre de la jeunesse. See: Dictionaire du Theatre, Bordas-Larousse. In Madrid, Buenos Aires, Mexico City, Bogota, Sao Paolo as Teatro Mladinsko. In Montreal, where they presented one of their latest pieces, they annonced the theatre as follows: Le Théâtre Mladinsko (qui signifie « jeunesse » en slovène) existe depuis 1955 ... --Pekarna (talk) 09:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

At least according to [1] it's indeed most known as Mladinsko Theatre and Teatro Mladinsko abroad. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Frequency is certainly an important criterion alongside reliable sources, English, naturalness, and consistency. However, the practice of other languages, such as French or Spanish, while interesting, is not compelling for English (e.g., the name Schwarzwald is used in many European languages, but this is ultimately irrelevant for how English names the Black Forest). Doremo (talk) 10:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The use of Молодежный театр [Molodezhnyy teatr] (not Младинско театр [Mladinsko teatr]) in the Petersburg Theater Journal as well as here and here is also interesting, although ultimately irrelevant for English usage. Doremo (talk) 11:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, glad to hear some good arguments from Pekarna and Eleassar. I suggested Doremo to find a more theatre involved editor to join the discussion, but up till now there was no reaction. So I am glad a new voice with a creal indsight joined our discussion. Thank you all for your participation in this interesting but up till know not very fruithfull debate ... --Pupilija (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Based on their Slovene name and the number of contributions, it's hard for me to convince myself that 'Pekarna' is a new and unrelated user...[2] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 20:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I also smell a puppet, but wasn't sure how to raise the issue. Doremo (talk) 04:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Eleassar and Doremo. I can see you are very dubious persons as far as the identities are concerned. It doesn't really matter, who proposes the argument, what matter is the argument and opinion itself. I am afraid I am not a very related user, but it is true that I do not occupy myself with Wikipedia matters. So I decided to base myself on a nema of the Slovene Theatre group that presented its work for the first time at Nancy Festival in 1970s. I liked the show very much and began to follow their work and this led me to Mladinsko, as some of the artists moved in 1980's to Mladinsko Theatre. No offense intended. --Pekarna (talk) 09:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A comment from the Culture.si editor: in the case of the English names of the cultural organisations we opt for the official version, used by the organisation itself even though it might contradict our internal Manual of Style. Why? Because this is how these organisations/institutions are internationally established and recognized. You can find more about the internal rules in our Manual of Style, written by Jana Wilcoxen. Thanks for using C.si as a reference. --Alenka Pirman, Culture.si — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.2.132.102 (talk) 16:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Serious problems with this article

This article is very badly translated into English and is barely understandable. Much of the text consists of opinion and is not consistent with the encyclopedic style of Wikipedia. I will have a go at copy editing over the next few days.RuthLiv 22:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RuthLivingstone (talk • contribs)