Talk:Shangxinhe/Archive 1

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Please help modify this entry--Bearjsnj (talk) 00:45, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8A%E6%96%B0%E6%B2%B3%E9%95%87--Bearjsnj (talk) 00:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Has been modified in accordance with the instructions00:34, 11 May 2014 (UTC)Bearjsnj (talk)

You mean this zh:上新河镇 (you can and should use Chinese chars here, it's much clearer). There's also this zh:上新河 with the name as used in the article, previously deleted as a copyright violation. I suspect 'on new river' is a poor translation. 'upper new river' seems more likely. The pinyin seems to be 'shangxinhe'.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Found it on Google maps (it has both the Chinese and pinyin) so added some coords. No sign of the actual river; there are a few around there but none I could see called 上新河 or 新河. Still needs better sourcing though.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

@JohnBlackburne: I'm so glad to see that you found the coordinates for "New River". So, does that mean it's the road? The strip of land along the road?

Great work investigating sources and performing clean-up of the Nanjing articles!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It looks like a 'district', i.e. an area, but a very small one; type '上新河' into Google Maps search and it finds a spot with the name in both Chinese and pinyin, as well as a few nearby buildings with '上新河' in their name, such as '中华中学上新河初级中学'. Here's a URL for the search: [1], and a direct link to the 'district': [2].--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Had another look. It looks like a sub-district, and in Jianye District. Problem is that district doesn't list it among its sub-districts, and I couldn't find most of them on the map. I don't know if Jianye District is inaccurate, or Google Maps is, or my map-reading and Chinese skills are too poor to reconcile the two.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yep, it's a bit dicey trying to sort it out! From what I've seen from a map of the districts, a map I've seen on the internet and the query on google maps, it definitely seems to be within the Jianye District. Do you see the red dotted line that creates an outline of the district with this link?--CaroleHenson (talk) 02:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I can see the same boundary on this government map: [3]. It's missing the bridge and elevated roadway that are on Google's map, but has 上新河 at around the same spot, as a label on what looks like a bus stop on a street 新河口大街, That street no longer exists on Google's map, the new elevated highway and road system are there instead, and it looks like the whole district from there south was redeveloped.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 10:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Great detective work! I've been having a hard time finding sources for Jianye District, so I've been resorting to using the map to identify places and then using travel books, like this Eyewitness book] to provide the details for articles. Do you, by chance, know of some other sources other than the few travel books?

For instance, I've had trouble finding information about the history of the district and to what extent the ancient Jianye was located in the current Jianye District -- and information about the canals or channels that flow through the city.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just been doing web searches, on various terms, and find no good sources. Blog postings, photos, but nothing that looks like a reliable source. One problem is 上新河 is used around there for a handful of businesses and govt buildings, which suggests it's a real place but not what sort of place. E.g. 100m from me there are a few businesses and other places called 'bridge end' because they're at or near the site of a bridge that used to be at that end of town. But the bridge, over a small stream now concreted over, is not notable nor is the location, it doesn't even merit mention on the town's WP page.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 15:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for your input!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Did some more searches. Baidu was most interesting. Searching for 上新河 found a number of locations; a school or schools and some businesses. The only one close to where I was looking before is here: http://j.map.baidu.com/mHZgs, 南京友泉 at 上新河新河口大街31号, so New River, Nanjing and North River Avenue. But the avenue or district are not on the map, though its coverage of China is generally good. The whole of the block where I found that street on Google, is unlabelled. It's carefully drawn so you can pick out streets across it and building blocks but none are labelled – elsewhere zoom in and all streets and many buildings are labelled. So according to the mappers of Baidu it either doesn't exist - redeveloped out of existence or soon to be.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 11:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

@JohnBlackburne: Interesting! Now, taking that location and lining it up with the "earth" version of google maps is very interesting. See this. It looks like the new building, Shengda Company, is surrounded by land that has been dug out. And, I'm not sure, but it seems that there may be some buildings just to the right of the company building. Perhaps the Jianghan Hall and Wang Hanzhou places? We still have the notability issue, but it's so cool to know where these places actually exist (or as you say may be redeveloped or soon to be redeveloped).--CaroleHenson (talk) 11:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

copy edits

I dug in to try to make sense of the content... and hopefully the information is much clearer. The translated text was so confusing, I don't know how accurate it is. For points I couldn't figure out at all, I dropped.

I think the source of this information (http://baike.baidu.com/view/11578454.htm), which is in doubt, must have been made without editorial control because the part about Gan Hee was in both the Ming and Qing dynasty sections. I'll try scouting around to see if I can find out when he lived to figure out which section he should be in.--CaroleHenson (talk) 10:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Good work Carole, thanks. This article is a blinding example of how horribly wrong machine translations of Chinese text can go. Unfortunately, the Chinese Wikipedia entry is only a single line, hence it doesn't help much.  Philg88 ^♦talk 10:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Phil, I'm tired and my mind got a bit confused in the process, so I'm sure it could still use some polishing, but hopefully it's a start. Thanks for your work to identify New River as a town!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It's been up a couple of days and despite all the work it's still not clear it's notable. It's been prodded once, so can't be again, so I've sent it to AfD for a fuller discussion. The good thing is if it's at all notable this will put it in front of people who are dedicated to rescuing poorly sourced but notable topics.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:53, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense! I think it would be good to at least carry over the first couple of sentences from the article to the Jianye District article. I've been finding more about the timber business, but that could go in that article as well. In the short run, I'm going to copy over the content User:CaroleHenson/New River because the information from the questionable source may help lead to more viable sources for the Jianye District article.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Sun Palace

Thanks so much for the Chinese characters! A huge help.

I found an image of the Sun Palace. From the ww.agri.com.cn site, it is located on the island near the Hang Shun ship repair yard (航顺船舶修造厂) in a green area, perhaps near a pond at about 32.021012, 118.680782 on the "earth" version of google maps or here. But it's not named on google maps, nor on http://map.baidu.com/. Which seems to make it a notability issue, unless I'm missing something.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)