Talk:Robert L. Owen

Clarifying Owen's later critique of Federal Reserve monetary policies

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The previous version of this article reported that Owen subsequently "repudiated" the Federal Reserve, on the evidence of his foreword to a book entitled "Money Creators" (though no details were provided of the book's author, date, publisher, etc.). I have now traced a copy of the (1935) book, and provided a full set of details in the article. I have also endeavored to provide a more detailed and nuanced summary of what Owen actually wrote about the Fed in the book in question. He did not state that the creation of the Fed had been a mistake per se. He did argue that, contrary to his own efforts to mandate the Fed to pursue a stable price level, and under the excessive influence of the largest banks, the Fed had followed inappropriately deflationary policies, both during the 1920-21 period, and again during the Hoover Administration, the latter helping to pave the way for the Great Depression. Nandt1 (talk) 22:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

This article is clearly now well beyond stub or start class

Could we ask an experienced Wikipedia editor/administrator for a review, please.Nandt1 (talk) 02:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Robert Latham Owen/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC) Please fix disamb link: Kaw. Done. No bad links.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Wikilink: Virginia Military Institute, University of Virginia Done.

   "mother now moved to Salina" - avoid "now" because reader may think you mean 2011. Please state year of move. Done.

   The Cherokee court case had a name and a citation. Please try to include them in this article. Done.

   I would move fn 15 to follow the words "land deals" and I would have a separate reference to support the claim that Owen was a "wealthy man" by using just the last sentence of fn 15. Done.

   Reword: "two causes often went together" Done.

   "(in the event, the introduction of federal deposit insurance had to wait until 1933)"->"(federal deposit insurance was not adopted until 1933)" Done.

   "but was struck down by the Supreme Court"->"which was later struck down by the Supreme Court" Done.

   Please change "--" to mdashes ("—") throughout the article. Done.

Editor's note to reviewer: If there are any additional reasons for the tentative "fail" grade on this criterion, beyond the specifics listed above, I would be grateful if you could warn me so that I can address them.

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Need reference for naming of park in honor of his founding the Fed. Done.

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Given the controversial nature of the material covered in fn 33 and 34, should this be discussed in the main text instead of being relegated to footnotes? [NB: As numbering has changed since, this refers to footnotes on Indian land issues.] Done. I have strengthened the discussion in the main text so that it now covers the broad lines of the controversy between Owen and his critics, previously in the footnotes. At the same time, I have kept the more detailed supporting material, such as the precise provisions of the Act (and the revealing language of Owen's debate with Moty Tiger) in the footnotes.

   There were other issues at this time, including the "gold standard"/hard currency for the U.S. dollar, and the regulation of security markets. Partly done. In the sources available to me at this stage, I have found one occasion when he intervened on the Gold Standard, and I have put that into the article. I have just ordered Owen's book on "Foreign Exchange" which may provide more evidence on this, and if so I will of course add it, but this is not going to occur during our one week review period. Didn't turn up anything really on securities regulation. This, I suspect, may have become much more of a concern in the late-1920s with the Crash.

   You just list Owen's committee chairmanships. Could you do more? How about the dates of service and some of the issues confronting the other committees? Done.

   If Owen published a number of books (in addition to The Russian Imperial Conspiracy, 1892-1914: The Most Gigantic Intrigue of all Time) how about a separate section listing his works? Done. I think I have come up with a more-or-less complete list of his books, though for a few of these works the information so far found is incomplete as to publisher. I decided after some reflection not to include several items that sometimes show up in footnotes or on used book websites that were evidently just reprints of individual speeches.

   In 1924, Congress attempted to pass a constitutional amendment to give Congress the power to regulate child labor. What role did Owen play in that proposal? Good question! According to Keso (p. 83), while Owen continued to support the elimination of child labor, he responded that no constitutional amendment was needed, and that the Congress just needed to pass an Act withdrawing from the Supreme Court the right to pass on an act banning child labor. Not being a constitutional (or any other kind of) lawyer myself, I have no idea whether this position was sound -- I would worry that, if adopted on a wide scale, it would drive a coach and horses through the whole idea of judicial review and separation of powers. Then again, maybe the remark was intended as a joke? It may also be significant that this exchange took place a few days before Owen announced his intention not to run for re-election, and at a time when, as the article suggests, he had become increasingly detached from active domestic politics. However all this may be, while the anecdote is intriguing, I am not sure it actually rises to the standard of importance where it would cry out to be included in an encyclopedia article?

   I think that you should just report that he sponsored the law, it was ruled unconstitutional. There was then an attempt to impose a tax on goods manufactured by children, and it was ruled unconstitutional. Finally, Congress moved to amend the Constitution to give it the power to regulate child labor, and you don't need to report why Owen did not back the amendment. (Later, FDR got Congress to give the NRA the power to regulate labor more generally (including child labor), and that law was declared unconstitutional. It took FDR threatening to "pack" the Supreme Court for the Court to finally hold that such legislation was Constitutional.) Thanks for the feedback. Done.

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

5. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Nice photos.

6. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   I am placing the article on hold for one week. Racepacket (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your careful review and constructive comments. I will aim to work my way through them systematically over the week ahead. Nandt1 (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

January 21 reading

• minor copy edits done directly. Thank you.
• "He made several attempts to pass the direct public election of US Senators, in place of election by state legislatures, " - make clear whether his proposal was a constitutional amendment. Done.
• "ruled that the Congress had the right to regulate conditions of employment."->"ruled that the Commerce Clause gave Congress the right to regulate conditions of employment." - it is just employment affecting interstate commerce Done.
• consider using citation templates to format your "Further reading" list. Maybe in the future, but for now I'd prefer to pass on this one.
• check to make sure that all page ranges are abbreviated pp. and not p. Done.
• I suggest A Monetary History of the United States be in italics, but I leave that up to you to decide. Done.
• Need references to support paragraphs on the Committee on Pacific Railroads and the Committee on Banking and Currency. Ummm. Banking and Currency is just a tag saying see elsewhere in this article. For Pacific Railways all I know came from the relevant Wikipedia article....

If the facts stated are non-controversial or not surprising, then GA criteria do not require a reference. I will let this one slide, but both this article and the other Committee articles should be reliably sourced. A piece of luck on my part. I found the reference at the National Archives that was obviously used as the basis of the Wikipedia article on the Committee on Pacific Railroads, so we are now covered on that front.

We should not drop the reference to the source that listed his Chairmanships. Trust me, no plans to drop this!

• Please indicate whether Owen supported the Child Labor Tax Law of 1919. Help! My sources don't tell me. Is there a website where old Congressional votes are recorded?

The Congressional Record is online up to 1875 and from 1989 onward, leaving a 1876-1988 gap. In December 1918, the bill was incorporated into Title XII of the Revenue Act of 1919 and was signed by the President on February 24, 1919 as chapter 18, 40 Statutes At Large 1057 (at page 1138). Given that it was a major revenue bill Owen probably voted for it, but it would take some digging as to whether he voted in committee to add those provisions into the bill. It was an interesting question, but probably not worth pursuing to meet the GA criteria. (cite is from Supreme Court decision which also quotes the text of the law in full. Online dates are from loc.gov.) Fair enough. If I ever find out, I'll add something.

• "any amendments to the Covenant"->"any amendments to the League's Covenant" Done.
• Did Owen engage in party-building activities back home in Oklahoma or mentor any particular political figures? I have now tried in a variety of places to give more of a flavor of Owen as a politician operating within Oklahoma. This includes (i) moving the discussion of the Democrats' success in assuming political dominance in the state from 1907 on ("for fifty years") from a footnote into the main text; (ii) we already had text on his successes at re-election and his mailing list; (iii) I've added a completely new section on his break with Gore over the latter's criticisms of Wilson; (iv) also new is the section on the split among the Democrats over the succession to Owen, and Owen's refusal to support ex-Governor Walton.
• Wikilink Tammany Hall Done.
• cite to http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/o/ow003.html to support the phonetic alphabet claim. Done.

We are getting close. Racepacket (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2011 (UTC) Nice job. Congratulations. Racepacket (talk) 05:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Racepacket, for your support throughout this process. You have helped make this a better article. A pleasure to work with you! Nandt1 (talk) 05:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Seeking to substantiate further family information

From a private (unpublished) source connected to the Owen family I understand that:

(a) Sen. Owen managed in his later life to lose a good part of his fortune, possibly at least in part through ill-advised investments (my source is unclear as to what extent the 1929 Crash may or may not have contributed to his losses);

(b) His daughter Dorothea was married and divorced three times, and the failure of her (last?) marriage prompted Owen to formally adopt his grandson Bobby, which may well explain the latter's assumption of RLO's name reported (based on public information) in the article.

I have not yet found published sources to validate these reports, and as such have not included them in the article. If anyone knows of any public sources that would bear on these points, I would be most grateful to hear from them. Nandt1 (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have subsequently come across (and cited) an essay by Sen. Owen himself, confirming his formal adoption of his grandson. Other questions remain open. Nandt1 (talk) 19:07, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Common name

Regarding the move of this page, Robert L. Owen (78%) and R. L. Owen (20%) are the only iterations of Owen's name that constitute over 5% of references to him on newspapers.com. Star Garnet (talk) 23:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)