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@M.Bitton the source literally states "Origin:Morocco", and this should be mentioned in the article one way or another, You can rephrase it if you want but don't remove sourced content.
"We follow the text, not a stray word" the so-called word is part of the whole text! It's not "stray", that's not an excuse at all.
"it cannot originate from it and be brought to it from Spain (at the same time)": that's another usual OR from you. Where exactly in the source it is mentioned that it was brought from spain? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1) You reverted MrOllie (who actually read the source properly). 2) the word "origin" is not part of the text (the explanation). 3) If you have difficulty understanding the meaning of "brought to Morocco by Sephardi Jews", then I suggest you ask someone to help you. M.Bitton (talk) 21:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2)- "The word "origin" is not part of the text (the explanation)" yes, and?
3)- I also suggest you read the article of Sephardic Jews, since you attributed them to Spain (like your usual OR). Also "brought by Sephardi jews " doesn't necessarily mean brought from outside Morocco. Sephardi jews existed in Morocco as well, that's a scholarly source and it's not likely to contradict itself (as you suggest). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
brought to Morocco by Sephardi jews doesn't necessarily mean brought from outside Morocco This is so hilarious, it needs framing. M.Bitton (talk) 22:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Alright, could you explain what would a scholarly source mean by this : "Origin:Morocco"? even a 5 years old child can understand it. You clearly suggest that the source is contradicting itself. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton and @MrOllie neither of you gave any valid reason for your edits yet all what i see is OR. And M.Bitton, you didn't answer any of my questions yet, you're just trying to impose your baseless POV.
The wording of the source is clear, and it is not the "brought by Sephardi jews" misquote you're arguing about above. The correct wording is "Sephardim brought pastilla to Morroco" which does necessarily mean it was brought from somewhere else. Since the Sephardic Jews come from Andalusia this is obviously Marks agreeing with the theories of the other historians cited in the article. Also, it is not required that you agree with our reasoning in order for it to be valid. See WP:SATISFY. MrOllie (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrOllie ,Thank you for your reply. Gil Marks didn't mention anywhere in his book that pastilla was brought from Andalusia (or Spain). Since he didn't precise the historical context of its origin and Sephardi jews existed in North Africa as well (a quick read of sephardi jews article could confirm that) we cannot directly conclude what he meant by that ( I think you already know what that is called). Anyway, I'd be glad if you just answered the question i asked M.Bitton above (which they didn't answer yet): what would a scholarly source mean by this : "Origin: Morocco"? And do you suggest that the source is contradicting itself? SimoooIX (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrOllie Also here is the full quotation from the book. "sephardim brought pastilla to Morocco and, after the Ottoman version of phyllo, called Warka, reached the Maghreb, cooks substituted it for spanish pastry"SimoooIX (talk) 23:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, WP:SATISFY. I will answer what I choose to answer, generally once. Restating the same question in slightly different ways and demanding more answers is not a productive use of anyone's time. MrOllie (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrOllie since you refuse to answer the question. Let's make things even simpler. Don't you see that you have removed a sourced information in your edit? SimoooIX (talk) 23:35, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrOllie I'm struggling to understand why describing pastilla as having originated in Morocco would be considered a misrepresentation of "Origin: Morocco". SimoooIX (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why, if you attempt to look at those two words outside the context of the entire entry. But that isn't how it is meant to be read. MrOllie (talk) 23:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrOllie If the author intended to convey that the dish originated in Spain, they could have simply stated "Origin: Spain" as they did with "Adafina", "Albondiga", "Hamin" and "Bollo". but instead, they did not! SimoooIX (talk) 00:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Idriss Bouhlila. الجزائريون في تطوان خلال القرن 13هـ/19م. pp. 128–129. إذا كان المجتمع التطواني قد تأثر في حياته اليومية ببعض الألبسة والمصطلحات اللغوية العثمانية، فقد تأثرت المائدة التطوانية - هي أيضا - بأصناف وأطباق جميلة من المأكولات، والحلويات العثمانية الجزائرية. نذكر منها على سبيل المثال: - الباصطيلة: تعد من الأطعمة الفاخرة التي تزخر بها المائدة التطوانية. وهناك من يقول على أنها أندلسية الأصل
This source does not assert that pastilla has Ottoman origins. It explicitly states that some people believed pastilla to be Ottoman, while others thought it came from Al-Andalus. However, these beliefs were not based on historical facts. The Ottomans never reached Morocco, making it impossible for pastilla to have Ottoman origins. Otherwise, it would be exclusively present in Algeria and Tunisia and non-existent in Morocco.
I believe it would be more appropriate to change the origin of pastilla from "Maghreb" to "Morocco" since most existing sources support this. It is a specialty of the country. Changing it to "Maghreb" or including Algeria as a specialty would be considered cultural appropriation and is very misleading. Eeddahbi (talk) 18:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC) (Blocked sock of SimoooIX)[reply]
The French who studied the Algerian cuisine in the 19th and 20th century didn't mention Pastilla anywhere. Only 1 author spoke about it in Tlemcen in 1908, where he said, it's a Moroccan influence in the city. "Mais, on parle d'un plat d'origine marocaine préparé à base de châtaignes, ce qui prouve que la cuisine marocaine a depuis très longtemps eu une influence sur la cuisine algérienne "... this is the source https://www.persee.fr/doc/homig_1142-852x_2003_num_1246_1_4104Eeddahbi (talk) 19:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC) (Blocked sock of SimoooIX)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
the French researchers who extensively studied Algerian cuisine during the 19th and 20th centuries did not make any mention of this dish. It was only in 1908, when one author mentioned it in Tlemcen, attributing it to Moroccan influence in the city. He noted, "Mais, on parle d'un plat d'origine marocaine préparé à base de châtaignes, ce qui prouve que la cuisine marocaine a depuis très longtemps eu une influence sur la cuisine algérienne."
Regarding Bouhlila's credibility as a source, it's important to note that he incorrectly attributed many things to the Algerian refugees of 1830. These refugees, we know, constituted a small group of unskilled individuals. Despite his claims, Algerians often reference his work, even though it has been debunked multiple times. In his writings, Bouhlila blends together ancient and modern Oriental influences and attributes them with an Ottoman origin, an idea introduced to Morocco only in 1830 according to him.
For instance, Bouhlila asserted that eggplant cultivation was brought to Morocco by Algerian refugees in 1830, whereas historical evidence shows that this plant has been present in Morocco since at least the 13th century, as Ibn Razin mentioned it in the context of Morocco and Andalusia. He also stated that the word "noqra" (silver) was introduced to Morocco by these refugees, but records show that the term was already known in Morocco as early as 1779, and it was not even recognized in Algerian dialects (according to William Marçais). Furthermore, Bouhlila claimed that the caftan was introduced to Morocco by these refugees in 1830, despite evidence from Von Dombay's accounts of visiting Rabat, Meknes, and Tangiers in the late 18th century. In the same book, he mentioned that the Moroccan sultan welcomed the Algerian refugees by providing them with caftans, money, and food. He also asserted that the Ikhwan (the Islamist movement) was introduced to Morocco by Algerians in 1830, even though the movement was not established until 1912. Eeddahbi (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is crazy I feel like a lot of things that are purely moroccans and may exist in west Algeria but their origin is morocco are appropriated by algerians or at least are labeled as Maghreb .. Like Maghrebi mint tea .. I think that wikipedia should really look into these things.
Pastilla is labeled as Maghrebi because it is 'sometimes' prepared in west Algeria.. I have Talked about it .. gave a source of a french who studied algerian cuisine before at 1908.
same goes for Tagines.. saffa ...Caftans... Zellige ...
There is clearly a war conducted by Algerians to appropriate as many things as possible .. sometimes providing sources that are written by other algerians who aren't very subjective and just want to give credit to their nation.. or using Bouhlila that I seem to find everywhere ... and whose things got debunked over and over again ... yet it seems that wikipedia just takes him as a viable source... maybe I should write my own book and put in it whatever I want .. Eeddahbi (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC) (Blocked sock of SimoooIX)[reply]
to label something as a specialty of a country .. I think historians should be the only thing considered and not some random books ..
saying that Pastilla is the specialty of algeria because it's sometimes present in the west of it that was ruled by moroccan dynasties anyways ... is like saying that Pizza is from Japan because some Japanese city has pizza
in History of Jewish food by Gil Marks, Pastilla's origin is moroccan .. and was never created by Ottomans since historically Ottomans never got to morocco Eeddahbi (talk) 00:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC) (Blocked sock of SimoooIX)[reply]
I want to report a mistake on the current page at the last line of the "history" category.
This line uses an incorrect source: "In Algeria, pastilla is usually made with chicken or with pigeon" (15) = According to the same source, it says that the Pastilla of pigeons it's a Moroccan Pastilla and not Algerian at all : "Morocco's cuisine is exquisite. The national dish is couscous, a combination of boiled chicken or lamb with semolina, vegetables and sauce. Other national favorites are Mechoui (roasted lamb), Pastilla (a flaky pigeon pie) and various sorts of Tajine etc...." (same source) ; So the user who used this source misused it.
Here other sources that prooves that the Pastilla of pigeon is a Moroccan traditional dish of the city of Fez :
1- The Sweet Taste of Pigeon Pie (source),
2- "Pigeon Pastilla, a specialty of Fès." (source)
3- Fez, Pastilla de pigeon : (source)
4- "Pastilla (the great specialty of Fez, s sort of pigeon pie)": source.
5- "The famous dish of Fez is pastilla , a sweet layered pastry dish made with pigeon , saffron , and almonds" : source.
6- "Other Moroccan delicacies include roasted lamb ("Mechoui"), flaky pigeon pie ("Pastilla")" : source.
7- "pigeon pie, or what the Moroccans call it, pastilla" : source.
8- "The soul of Morocco, Moroccan restaurants offer mouth watering preparations of Pastilla (pigeon done in pastry)" : source.
9- "Beguiling Morocco, Fez el bali : one favorite dish is pastilla , a heavily spiced pigeon pie with a fine flaky crust" : source.
10- "Fez is where they understand best how to mix skilful blends of spices like ras el hanout in the right proportions; where the negro servants bring off the best Pastilla, that sweet flaky pastry stuffed with vegetables, eggs and pigeons" : source.
11- "the famous pigeon pie called bstilla (or pastilla)....I have to admit that this pie, which comes from Fez...." : source.
12 - Larousse Gastronomique (reference book) "B'stilla, also known as bisteeya and bestilla. The celebratory pigeon pie of Morocco, and Fez in particular..." : source.
13- The Moroccan Cookbook : "BASTELA ( Pastilla ) Goop Pigeon Pie" : source.
14- The Land and People of Morocco (1967), "Perhaps the most unusual dish is pastilla, a flat pie of pigeon-breast and almond enclosed in flaky pastry liberally sprinkled with sugar." : source.
15- Blackwood's Magazine, William Blackwood, in Morocco, original date : (1817), "We had a delicious salad, folollowed by a heavenly Pastilla-the meat of pigeons combined in some secret way with pastry and sugar..." : source.
16- "fez - capped waiters serve superb pastilla ( flaky pastries filled with either seafood or pigeon" : source.
17- "fr : < pastilla » > , cette pâte feuilletée fourrée de pigeon au miel et aux amandes que des milliers de touristes découvrent , chaque année , dans les palaces de Fez ou d'Agadir", "en : < pastilla » >, "This puff pastry filled with honey and almond pigeon that thousands of tourists discover every year in the palaces of Fez or Agadir" : source.
18- Actress Elaine Shepard on her trip to Morocco : source.
19- "Moroccan food ; pigeon pie ( called pastilla )" : source.
20- "Arriving at 4 a.m. our time at the Hotel Palais Jamai...pastilla stuffed pigeon pie..." : source.
21- "Bastilla, the crown jewel of Moroccan cuisine, is also called bstila, pastilla and bisteeya. By any name, this rich and elegant dish from Fez is a favorite.." : source.
22- "Morocco.....pastilla " , which is a flat , round , cinnamon - flavoured pigeon pie..." : source.
23- "pigeon pie - a savory Fez specialty" : source.
24- Morocco, Nagel Publishers (1977), "pastilla , a puff pastry stuffed with pigeon meat and almonds" : source.
25- "Fez. We entered the city just when it was readmitting all it had expelled that morning...pastilla with eggs , and sugared chicken Pigeons Chicken with fresh almonds Méchoui Shad Mutton covered with olives..." : source.
26- "pastilla , a poultry- or pigeon - based pie...as you may have had it in the Moroccan city of Fez..." : source.
27- "pastilla...mul dinous layers of phyllo - like pastry are stuffed with pigeon , onions..." : source.
28- "The glory of Morocco's and especially Fez's cuisine is the bstilla, often written in its French form of " pastilla " . This extraordinary dish in which layers of wafer - thin pastry are filled with a mix- ture of pigeon meat , almonds and seas- oning and topped with sugar..." : source and here.
29- "Fr : Fès possède une cuisine très raffinée. Et l'un de ses plats les plus emblématiques est la pastilla au pigeon..." / eng : "Fez has very refined cuisine. And one of its most emblematic dishes is the pigeon pastilla..." : source.
Altought, the Chicken Pastilla is Moroccan and all varieties of Pastilla is Moroccan and all sources clames that the Moroccan is originated from Morocco :
1 - (All previous sources given) + 1, 2,3, 4,5, pastilla , a flaky kind of Moroccan quiche lorraine made with pigeon and egg (6), 7
Books citing the culinary tradition of Pastilla in Moroccan culinary traditions ;
1, 2, 3, 4
"pastilla , regarded by many as the jewel in the crown of Moroccan gastronomical achievements . This heavenly , rich pie is made of layers of paper - thin ouarka ( flaky phyllo - like pastry ) interspersed with pigeon..." : source.
"Morocco, city guide : fr : "Pastilla, spécialité de Fès, cette tourte sucrée-salée composée de ouarka (couches de pâtes très fines) est farcie de morceaux de pigeon ou de poulet, cuits avec des oignons caramélisés, du citron, des œufs, cannelle..." / eng : "Pastilla, a specialty of Fez, this sweet and savory pie composed of ouarka (layers of very thin pasta) is stuffed with pieces of pigeon or chicken, cooked with caramelized onions, lemon, egg, cinnamon..." : source.
"fr : Le bstila aussi appelé pastilla par les Européens et maintenant par les Marocains eux-mêmes, est une tourte composée de feuilles de ouarka , des crêpes si fines qu'elles sont transparentes, de farce de pigeon ou à défaut de poulet et d'amandes pilées ; le tout assaisonnée de poivre et de safran, parfumé à la cannelle, doré au four et saupoudré de sucre glace." / eng "Bstila, also called pastilla by Europeans and now by Moroccans themselves, is a pie made from ouarka leaves, pancakes so thin that they are transparent, pigeon stuffing or, failing that, chicken and crushed almonds. ; all seasoned with pepper and saffron, flavored with cinnamon, browned in the oven and sprinkled with icing sugar." : (source)
"pastilla (bisteeya), the famous Moroccan pigeon pie is dusted with a generous layer of icing sugar..." : source.
"Cuisine marocaine...Pastilla : exercice de style d'un gâteau sucré en pâte feuilletée fourrée de pigeons, dattes, œufs, cannelle.." / eng : "Moroccan cuisine...Pastilla: style exercise of a sweet cake in puff pastry filled with pigeons, dates, eggs, cinnamon.." : source.
"fr : la pastilla : grand gâteau marocain de pâte feuilletée farci, dans sa version la plus renommée, de hachis de pigeons (mais aussi de poulet d'agneau) et légèrement poudrée de sucre et de cannelle" / eng : "pastilla: large Moroccan puff pastry cake stuffed, in its most famous version, with pigeon mince (but also lamb chicken) and lightly powdered with sugar and cinnamon." : source.
Nouveau Larousse ménager, 1955, la New York Public Library : source.
"Moroccan women cook....pastilla , pigeon pie ( it takes twenty - four hours to prepare this delicacy)..." : source.
"Cuisine marocaine...Pastilla : exercice de style d'un gâteau sucré en pâte feuilletée fourrée de pigeons, dattes, œufs, cannelle..." / en : Moroccan cuisin...Pastilla: style exercise of a sweet cake in puff pastry filled with pigeons, dates, eggs, cinnamon... : source.
"Moroccan restaurant and cuisine in Israel : ....pastilla , a sweet phyllo pie usually made of pigeon..." : source.
"Moroccan food offers a large choise...couscous (...), Méchoui (....), pastilla (pie stuffed with pigeons and almondes)" : source.
La Terre marocaine, Volume 2, 1932 : "À la fin du repas, nous voyons arriver sur toutes les tables la délicieuse "Pastilla" gâteau feuilletée bourré de farce de pigeon" / en : "Moroccan land, Volume 2, 1932: "At the end of the meal, we see the delicious "Pastilla", puff pastry cake stuffed with pigeon stuffing, arriving on all the tables" : source.
"Morocco has an excellent cuisine, terribly underrated abroad...Pastilla , that takes nearly forty - eight hours to cook , is a sweetened pâte feuilletée , stuffed with pigeon , almonds..." : source.
"Morocco...Pastilla , a traditional dish , is a pie made with lamb , pigeon , chicken , eggs , vegetables , and spices." : source.
"Moroccan cuisine is one of the finest in the world...Be sure bastilla (pastilla) is on the menu, and don't be put off just because it contains pigeon!" : source.
"Moroccan cuisine...pastilla " -the turkeys , roasted in honey , fresh butter and almonds - the plump pigeons wrapped tenderly..." : source.
"In Morocco...pastilla , layers of pastry dough filled with chicken , al- monds , and eggs and dusted with sugar and cinnamon..." : source.
"The surprising combination of savoury and sweet os what makes Morocco's pigeon pastilla so impossible to resist, and it forms a delicate and delightful start to a meal..." : source.
"Cuisine of Morocco, Pastilla de pigeon" : source.
"Moroccan cuisine...pigeon pastilla ; grilled sweet - pepper salad ; eggplant zaalouk , and carrot and orange salad . Not to mention semolina rolled in saffron pistils and served with caramelized onions , and Fès - style raisins and almonds..." : source.
"Bistilla - pastilla, Moroccan cuisine of Fez" : source.
Moroccan Pastilla "pastilla, a puff pastry surrounding pigeons, eggs, olives, is a real treat" : source.
Moroccan pastilla in the literature, tradition and folklore of Morocco (I'm just citing a few sources because there are so many....I can't cite them all) :
"fr ; Dans le Grand Atlas marocain, 1919 : La "pastilla" fut apportée sur un vaste plateau de cuivre. C'est un gâteau fait de pate feuilletée et aromatisée, et garni de viandes diverses de pigeons , de poulets..." / eng : In the Grand Moroccan Atlas, 1919 ; "The “pastilla” was brought on a large copper tray. It is a cake made of puff pastry and flavored, and garnished with various meats of pigeon, chicken..." : source.
Indiana University, Moroccan cuisine (2011 - البيت العربي
Numéros 1-13), Pastilla, Moroccan cuisine : source.
Michigan University, (تضاريس الكتابة
قراءات في الأدب المغربي / Readings in Moroccan literature) ; Pastilla, Moroccan cuisine : source.
Spanish book, Alain Jaouhari, "Es el plato marroquí por excelencia - PASTILLA DE PICHON CON ALMENDRAS" : source.
Indiana University ; (fr : Pastilla marocaine) / eng : Moroccan Pastilla : source.
Pastilla is a word originating from Moroccan Darija. The word Pastilla in Moroccan Darija dictionaries :
- Michigan University - Institute of Studies and Research for Arabization, 1999, Moroccan author, "Pastilla" : source.
- Moroccan dictionary, Pastilla : source.
- Michigan University, Contemporary story trends in Morocco, Study "Moroccan Pastilla" : source.
- Berkeley, University of California (جمعية المغربية للتراث اللغوي/ Moroccan Association for Linguistic Heritage) : source.
- fr : Textes en arabe du dialecte de Rabat (Maroc), par Louis Gronowski-Brunot, 1918 / eng : Texts in Arabic from the Rabat dialect (Morocco), by Louis Gronowski-Brunot, 1918 : source.
- fr : Dictionnaire historique de Alain Rey ; "Pastilla est un emprunt à l'espagnol "Pastilla" au sens culinaire de ("pâte parfumée"), appliqué au Maroc à ce plat. La Pastilla, recette marocaine, est une très fine pâte feuilletée, fourrée de viande (souvent du pigeon), de raisins et d'amandes, formant un plat à la fois salé et sucré.." / eng : Historical dictionary by Alain Rey ; "Pastilla is a loanword from the Spanish "Pastilla" in the culinary sense of ("fragrant paste"), applied in Morocco to this dish. Pastilla, a Moroccan recipe, is a very thin puff pastry, filled with meat (often pigeon), grapes and almonds, forming a dish that is both savory and sweet." : source.
- Dictionnaire de la gourmandise (Dictionary of gluttony), Annie Perrier-Robert, 2012 : Annie Perrier-Robert (French) is the author of around sixty works devoted mainly to the history of gastronomy and its traditions, she wrote in her book that Pastilla is a Moroccan dish : "la Pastilla telle qu'on la mange au Maroc" (Pastilla as it is eaten in Morocco) : source.
- Le vocabulaire en classe de langue - 2016 ; fr : pastilla est un plat marocain, un genre de tourte fourrée au pigeon ou au poulet / eng : pastilla is a Moroccan dish, a type of pie filled with pigeon or chicken ; source.
- El banquete de las palabras la alimentación de los textos árabes
- 2005, fr : "Peut-être pourrait-on ainsi résoudre l'énigme de l'origine d'un plat qui fait l'orgueil de la cuisine marocaine, la fameuse Pastilla ". L'absence de la " bastila " " est d'autant plus étonnante que le nom semble dériver d'une racine latine.." / eng : "Perhaps we could thus resolve the enigma of the origin of a dish which is the pride of Moroccan cuisine, the famous Pastilla. The absence of the "bastila" is all the more surprising as the name seems to derive from a Latin root..." ; source.
The Moroccan Chef Houari Houssin (researcher in the history of cuisine and food) attested that Pastilla is a dish originating from Morocco and that it is a dish that does not exist in any country other than Morocco: it is a historical particularity of Moroccan gastronomy ; source.
Also, Bastilla is believed to have begin with a Berber (Amazigh - indigenous people of Morocco) dish called bestila that consisted of chicken cooked in butter and flavored with saffron....As a result, the standard bastila was transformed by adding lemony eggs, sweetened almond layers, a variety of spices, onions, cinnamon and in some cases substituting piegeon for chicken meat...Bastila is said to have originated in the Medina in Fez." ; Source : "The Search for Morocco's Best Bastilla," Edith Marks, New York Times, May 22, 1983 (p. XX20) / check here.
Also, the 3 sources that the article uses to say that Pastilla is an Algerian specialty (Along with Moroccan specialty) (1,2, 3) = all actually say that Pastilla is of Moroccan origin :
- (1) According to Ken Albala, the basic concept of pastilla was likely brought to Morocco by Moorish who left Spain in the 16th century, or perhaps earlier, because there had been considerable traffic between Morocco and Spain since the Moors conquered the latter in the seventh century. ; Pastilla, Moroccan origin (page 119).
- And the source number (2) does not mention Pastilla in Algeria at any time but the author Anny Gaul puts forward hypotheses saying that the Moroccan historian Idriss Bouhlila would have suggested that the word Pastilla would be of Turkish origin > which is, we know, incorrect due to the Hispanic origin of the word, in fact, all historians agree on the Spanish origin of the word which derives from the term "Pasta/Pastilla" ;
“Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830."
The historian Idriss Bouhlila only speaks of the warqa leaf and the linguistic term "Pastilla" which he suggests is of Turkish origin and not of the pastilla itself which has existed in Morocco since the Middle Ages and the modern period.
And the historian only puts forward hypotheses: It is possible that the warqa leaves are of Turkish origin, as it is possible that this is not the case, further research on this subject must be carried out.
For example, the book's source ( والألوان صورة من فن الطبخ في الأندلس و المغرب في بداية عصر بني مرين / eng translation : Table delights and the best culinary preparations, a picture of the art of cooking in Andalusia and Morocco at the beginning of the Banu Marin era. Page 176 / 13th century) mentions that thin leaves (warqa) were known in Morocco and Andalusia centuries before the Almohad era (Moroccan Amazigh Empire/12th century-13th century).
Also, Hassan al-Wazzan, known as Leo Africanus (1496-1548) in his book : Cosmographia et geographia de Affrica (1526), page 280 mentioned in his book, while he visited the Imazighen (Berbers) in the Moroccan Atlas, Hascora region, the notables of the region served him a feast; he mentioned the use, already in the 16th century, of fine leaves in the preparation of dishes; fr : "Les viandes qui furent servies estoient chair de mouton et d'agneau rôti et bouillie, qui estoit dans certains replis de paste subtiles, faite en sorte de lasagnes, mais plus ferme et materielle..". / eng translation ; "The meats that were served were roasted and boiled mutton and lamb, which was in certain folds of subtle paste/pasta, made like lasagna, but more firm..."source.
This Moroccan historian (Idriss Bouhlila) has already made a mistake by suggesting that the word Pastilla is of Turkish origin while the word Pastilla is a word originating from Latin (Spanish).1,2
So these are just his assumptions.
And the source number (3) confirms that Pastilla is a Moroccan dish : "the "Pastilla", Moroccan dish with a Latin name".
Moroccan Pastilla since the Middle Ages and the modern period :
12th/13th century :
- A dish resembling Pastilla was cited as "Al Marmakiya المرمكية" in the 13th century in the book : (أنواع الصيدلة في ألوان الأطعمة الطبيخ في المغرب والأندلس في عصر الموحدين / eng translation :
Types of pharmacy in the colors of food and cooking in Morocco and Andalusia in the Almohad era)، page 26. This book, as its title indicates, refers to the cuisine of Morocco and Andalusia during the Almohad era when Andalusia was under the domination of the Moroccan Amazigh (Berber) Almohad Empire.
- A dish identified as Pastilla was cited under the name "Al Mahshou - المحشو" in the 13th century in the book : (فضالة الخوان في طيبات الطعام والألوان صورة من فن الطبخ في الأندلس و المغرب في بداية عصر بني مرين / eng translation : Table delights and the best culinary preparations, a picture of the art of cooking in Andalusia and Morocco at the beginning of the Banu Marin era. Page 78). This book, as its title indicates, it is a book of medieval recipes from Morocco and Andalusia during the era of the Moroccan Amazigh Empire of the Merinids.
16th century :
- Moroccan Pastilla was served to English ambassadors who visited Morocco during the period of the Saadian kings (1549 to 1659): "(Translated from arabic) ; the English ambassadors spoke of a dish that they discovered in Morocco , and this dish is called "Bastilla" (Pastilla), and they said that it was a dish filled with pigeons and almonds." ; source (عبد الهادي التازي، التاريخ الدبلوماسي للمغرب، المجلد الثاني الصفحة 307 و 308 / Abdelhadi Tazi, Diplomatic history of Morocco, volume 2, pages 308/309).
Also, the Moroccan historian Abdelhadi Tazi mentioned in his book "Diplomatic history of Morocco - التاريخ الدبلوماسي للمغرب" that the culinary tradition of farci (meat, bread and stuffed dough like Pastilla) is an ancestral culinary tradition of Morocco.
19th century ;
- William Blackwood (originally published in 1817) ; "Moroccan journey...pastilla - the meat of pigeons combined in some secret way with pastry and sugar.." : source.
- Moroccan pastilla in Malhun (extraordinary music and poetry from Morocco - see Malhun UNESCO) in the 19th century; the Moroccan poet Mohamed Ben Ali Mesfioui (1863-1931) wrote a poem entitled “Zerda” (the feast) where he mentions all the emblematic dishes of Moroccan culinary art and he mentioned Pastilla: source.
Other sources (Moroccan origine) :
- Harry Eastwood, British chef ; "This recipe is a cornerstone of Moroccan cuisine...it's just the most heavenly combination with the pigeon, herbs, nuts and spices. I have tasted many versions of this classic in France where excellent Moroccan food is easy to come by...." : source.
- Gordon Ramsay, British chef - Simple Chicken Pastilla (Moroccan Pie) | Gordon Ramsay : source.
- MasterChef Türkiye : (translated from Turkish to English:) "There are some dishes that challenge the contestants almost every year in MasterChef Turkey. Somer Sivrioğlu's Moroccan cuisine dish, duck pastilla, is one of them. If you are curious about the recipe for this dish and want to try it, here is a delicious duck pastilla recipe, crispy on the outside and filled with duck meat inside..." : source
- Moroccan chef Choumicha in Algeria presents the traditional Moroccan Bastayla (Pastilla) which is unknown to her Algerian guests who do not know what a Pastilla is : source.
- According to the book "1989 / ابو شعيب الدكالي اكادميه علميه تسير علي رجليها ,طبعه": During the visit of French Marshal Lyautey to Morocco, the Moroccans served him Moroccan Pastilla. Lyautey, who was returning from Algeria, claimed to have never seen the Pastilla in Algeria on any table : بسطيلة » وهي كثيرة التداول في الحفلات ، فقال ليوطي : لقد عشت كثيرا في القطر الجزائري - وهو قطر مغربي - وما رأيتها على مائدة قط
Translation : In Morocco, “Bastilla” is a common item at parties, and Lyautey said : I have lived a long time in the Algerian country and I have never seen it on a table ; source (page 293).
- During the trip of French President François Mitterrand to Morocco in 1983, François Mitterrand, welcomed by King Hassan II upon his arrival, tasted, according to tradition, dates and milk offered by the notables of Rabat, on January 27, 1983 in Rabat in Morocco. In particular, the French president was able to taste Moroccan gastronomy and in particular, a dish which alone reflects all the culinary excellence of the Kingdom of Morocco : the emblematic and inimitable Moroccan Pastilla was offered to him.
(See the INA archives - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfdd87)
- Zhou Enlai : During his visit to Morocco, the Chinese Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Zhou Enlai, surrounded by the Moroccan ambassador and his wife, said he greatly appreciated the Moroccan Pastilla and Moroccan cuisine : source.
There are many other sources but I don't have time to include them all, it would take me a huge amount of time.....
SimooolX has been blocked for some time and will not be responding here. As to your sources, they do not actually contradict what is in the article. That a dish is made in Morocco obviously does not mean it is not made a similar way in Algeria. MrOllie (talk) 14:53, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you're doing now is POV-pushing. Because you cannot ignore that ALL sources mention a Moroccan origin because Pastilla originates from Morocco and is the most emblematic dish of Moroccan gastronomy.
Also, the French are the second largest consumers of pizza in the world: this does not make the Italian piazza "French" because pizza comes from Italy and only the origin counts and not the countries of consumption because you see, like Pastilla, pizza is eaten everywhere because it is very popular.
Pastilla is consumed in France in Moroccan restaurants and consumed in Israel in Moroccan restaurants etc...this does not make Pastilla "French" or "Israeli" because the origin is Morocco.
I stop here; I don't have to argue with you; all sources mention a Moroccan origin and all sources speak for themselves so I and you have nothing more to add, if you do not know how to read, I would not play the role of teacher for you and if you continue in this POV-pushing, I will report it to the Admin.
But your intervention reminded me that there was not just one Pastilla in Morocco but several; Indeed, there is the Pastilla de Tétouan, called "Bitter Pastilla", there is the Pastilla de Fez with pigeons, there is the Pastilla de Rabat, entirely sweet, there is the Pastilla de Asfi, there is Chicken Pastilla, there is Seafood Pastilla etc...: Moroccan gastronomy has several varieties of Pastilla, which makes Moroccan cuisine unique.
Exactly like Italian cuisine which does not have just one pizza but several varieties of pizza.
I also forgot the Milk Pastillla called Jawhara (which means “the jewels”) which is a dessert.
Again, you have presented a long list of sources which either do not contradict the article or which are not reliable sources. It is not POV-pushing, as you claim, to note this. Feel free to report it to the Admin. MrOllie (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done - Wikipedia follows the reliable sources on this. - MrOllie (talk) 19:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)