Talk:NF (rapper)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Last name pronounciation

If we can perhaps focus attention away from the rapper//Christian-rapper//Christian-who-is-a-rapper topic, I'd like someone to confirm the IPA for NF's last name, Feuerstein. I looked up this surname in Wiktionary, but it is not the same pronunciation that Nathan uses in interviews (...steen versus ...stine, if that makes sense). I did my best to listen to this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrvGO-Nr0 & pick out vowels that match what I heard. If it's to anyone's benefit, the beginning of the pronunciation isn't exactly like the word 'fire', but it isn't too far from it. It could be roughly approximated as "fwire". If this artist adopted his initials because no-one could pronounce his name, perhaps it's worthwhile to find it out. I very well could have found the perfect match of IPA characters, but I'd like a confirmation or correction to make sure. I don't know of any other sources where he says his name. Dfcorrea00 (talk) 16:02, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

COI edit request

Hello! Capitol Records is a client of my firm and for the past few months, there have been attempts to update this article's mention of NF as a Christian hip hop artist and Christian rapper to a Hip hop artist and rapper. This recent article on Billboard is a third-party source mentioning him leaving the Christian hip hop label and his success in rap music. I understand how this might be controversial, but would like to open a discussion about the possibility of this occurring. Thank you! JacobMW (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. We know you want to rebrand him, but he has won awards as a Christian artist. We could add the other terms but it makes no sense to remove the Christian term for your marketing purposes. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:36, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Walter Görlitz. Yes, if we could add in the mentions of him being a hip hop artist that would be great. I liken the situation to that of Taylor Swift - while she started off in country, she is now known as pop artist. Also, while I don't believe NF has won any awards for his contributions to hip hop, his biggest song to date has been a 'rap song', this Billboard article also mentions his departure from 'christian rap music'. Let me know your thoughts. Thank you. JacobMW (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read his bio here. He's both won an award from the Gospel Music Association of America for his Therapy Session album and for the song, "Oh Lord".

As for comparisons to Swift going from country to pop, it's flawed. The genres do not share terms. I've also broken the backlink to Swift's article because this talk page doesn't have anything to do with Swift. The term "hip hop" is in the larger term, "Christian hip hop". It's more akin to the muddy water Switchfoot found themselves in. Originally labelled a "Christian rock" band, their management thought, just like Capitol does about NF now, that the term would frighten non-religious fans away. They fought to have it removed and paid lots of reporters to not discuss the religious aspects of their music or to use the "Christian" term in referencing their music. They prevented Christian media from accessing them and went as far as refusing to allow their booking agent from putting them on concert bills with other "Christian" artists or in "Christian" venues or with "Christian" promoters. Eventually, the band changed management and they went back to their original monikers as you can see from the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:05, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that in, Walter Görlitz. Once again, and I'm going to discuss this from a bit of a non-Wikipedia perspective, the big concern here is that even though NF has started to pursue less of a career in Christian hip hop, there are still publications that look at this Wikipedia article and believe that he is still a Christian hip hop artist, which just continues to be a self-fulfilling cycle even though he is now going more broad into just rap music.

I ask you this because I'm genuinely curious: are there any notability requirements that would need to be met in order for NF to just be known as a rap artist on this page and not a Christian rap artist? Thanks again for your help and insight and meeting me halfway. JacobMW (talk) 22:18, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Stop pinging me. This article is on my watchlist.

No notability criteria would ever likely remove the genre. Consider any musician or band that has changed style over time. As long as a genre is reliably sourced in the article it should be included in the lede (or lead) of the article and in the infobox. Discussions will start when the number of genres become too numerous and only the generic genres that reflect the span of the subject's career are represented in the infobox. At this point, unless NF's career is going to last 30 or more years or if he has a major hit in the mainstream market, the "Christian" will remain there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:25, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Will stop pinging you. Would you also be able to add 'hip hop' to his lead section as you did with the infobox? FWIW, Let You Down has performed incredibly well and is NF's biggest hip hop song to date. JacobMW (talk) 22:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Closing the request template as answered. Spintendo ᔦᔭ 01:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Spintendo. Walter - thanks for the update. The language you updated it with is very neutral, straight to the point, and makes a lot of sense. JacobMW (talk) 02:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Walter - just a quick follow up here. New York Times published a piece (text version here if you can't access the link) recently on NF and said NF, by Michigan, has had most of his success inside the Christian music world. “Let You Down” is actually his first mainstream hit, in addition to that will comes by “Perception,” which had a surprise debut at No. 1 on the Billboard album chart in October. Yesterday, you said At this point, unless NF's career is going to last 30 or more years or if he has a major hit in the mainstream market, the "Christian" will remain there. I'm just wondering what guideline we're following as far as keeping the word Christian in the lead and infobox. Your update to the article is much appreciated, but I'm still curious about this since a highly notable publication even made reference to what we're discussing here (used to do Christian music but is now charting in the mainstream). Thank you. JacobMW (talk) 18:27, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

No guideline or manual of style. It's a general consensus in the music working group. It has been discussed on the musicians project several times where "recent success" has tried to push its way into an article. The people in the group were adamant that wikipedia takes a long-term approach to subjects (see WP:RECENTISM). {{Infobox musical artist}} makes it clear in several parameters that you start with the oldest first, but with genres, "generalization" is the goal. So rather than listing three forms of extreme metal, we would encourage the genre to simply be extreme metal. The same goes here. If we saw five or six (sourced) variants of hip hop, we would generalize to hip hop. The lede would simply summarize the genres. He is unlikely to ever completely lose the term, at least on Wikipedia. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:58, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Understood. However, as I mentioned, there are multiple articles which I've linked that mention his "departure from Christian music" for lack of a better phrase. WP:RECENTISM makes sense to me - articles should be written in a chronological manner to show the whole spectrum of the subject's history, not just the recent events. While I agree that it is accurate to say that NF is an artist who has charted in both the Christian hip hop and mainstream hip hop markets, moving forward and all of his recent success have just been in hip hop as a whole. Even the 'genre' section for the infobox you sent over says Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop). It could be argued that even on his last album, it's various types of hip hop since no one these days just makes general 'hip hop', but it fits into some kind of sub-genre that the fans create. I think based off of his success, it's fair to say he is a hip hop artist but has had charted in christian music charts (historically). I see your side to this, but also please understand where I'm coming from. I want to learn from this dialogue. JacobMW (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. When there are too many genres, we generalize. Please ask his record label to find another way to promote this artist. Wikipedia doesn't want to push their current slant on the subject just so that they can earn a few more dollars. 22:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

According to this Wikipedia article, christian hip hop is a subgenre of hip hop. I realistically don't think the label is earning any more money by making this change. As I said earlier, one of the big problems here is that several publications are looking at this article and calling him a 'Christian rapper', even though his most mainstream project has charted incredibly well in the hip hop charts, and he is likely going to be making more hip hop music moving forward. It's totally fine leaving in his history in Christian music, but I believe based off of all the information, that the lead and infobox should only call him a 'hip hop artist' to encapsulate any and all of his subgenres. I understand how this might be a contentious change, and I very much appreciate the update you've already made, but the plan simple truth is that he is more than just a 'Christian hip hop' artist, per his credibility in notable publications like Billboard and New York Times. JacobMW (talk) 23:53, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Tell the label my only concern is WP:NOTADVERTISING. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:43, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. Much appreciate your help and time spent here. Have a good one. JacobMW (talk) 04:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Walter! I'm sure you're tired of this discussion, but I'd really appreciate if you could hear me out on this. The artist is still unhappy with the way Wikipedia (according to him) is falsely portraying his work as publications are continuing to call him a "Christian rapper". One solid point that was brought up from him in recent conversation is why Chance the Rapper isn't categorized as a 'Christian rapper' or 'Christian hip hop' artist on Wikipedia. I think it's fine for it to be mentioned as part of his historical information and releases of course, but really the simple truth is that he is a 'hip hop artist' and a 'rapper' and he feels that the Christian label is putting him in a box. And I am going to bring up again the the 'genre' section for the infobox you sent over before which says Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop). Once again, for them, this has nothing to do with making more money or advertising, but just setting the record straight so that he can broaden his identity in music more. Maybe you and I have a bias and don't even know it, but I feel it would be worth something to try and present this in front of more people if we can't reach an agreement. Would you not agree that at this point, he's just a hip hop artist? We've already discussed the massive success he's already had in the genre as a whole. JacobPace (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Did you ever think that the reason publications call him a Christian rapper is not because we call him one, but because he is one? Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure Wikipedia has had some influence over the media, but sure, they're entitled to their own opinion as well. NF himself has continually had to reject the 'Christian rapper' label (literally straight from the horse's mouth). If he himself is rejecting the label, I don't understand why this article still needs to refer to him as such. I've cited a few policies and guidelines, but don't think we're really being given a fair chance or voice here. Also, he is a hip hop artist now, that is a fact. If you'd like, I can send you information on his hip hop charting and notability within the genre. The article on Christian music says Christian hip hop (originally Gospel rap, also known as Christian rap, Gospel hip hop or holy hip hop) is a sub-genre of hip hop music characterized by a Christian worldview, with the general purposes of evangelization (Christian mission work), edifying some members of the church and/or simply entertaining. It has also been characterized by a defensive posture to its inherited philosophy of cultural appropriation, rejecting the origins in resistance to oppression and exploitation, by denying any connection to the global Hip-Hop Culture movement but his new music has been more dealing with personal issues and perspectives, which I can prove to you via notable publications. I'm not sure what else you need or want to see. JacobPace (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Please allow me to rephrase the problem I think you're trying to fix. You believe that the people you're asking to write about your client are looking at Wikipedia instead of your press releases and communication where you intentionally say nothing about the subject being a Christian or at the very least the line that people are Christian and music isn't. I understand. I'm sorry that you're experiencing this problem with the media. Wikipedia is not an extension of your PR or management of the subject. It's independent of it. I don't care about this particular problem. I care about WP:5 not about how your account is coming along for you. Happy new year. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Chiming in here. The statement, "Did you ever think that the reason publications call him a Christian rapper is not because we call him one, but because he is one?" is so fundamentally foolish, cruel, snobbish, and absurd, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. How does that even remotely make sense? It is literally the definition of circular logic. How can he "be one" if that's not the music he makes? Publications call him a Christian rapper (an artists in the same boat "Christian artits") because people like you continue to perpetuate the misconception despite the authentic, innocent wishes of the artist. Then when they do that, you say, "See! There! This publication calls this artist by this "genre" so it must be true! It's impossible to escape from it." But that simply doesn't make sense. And you keep using the word "PR" but I don't think you know what it means. Wikipedia's job is obviously to prevent the facts as they are, but "genre" is not in the same category. Say an artist committed a crime, and the artist's record company wanted to soften the report. This would be PR, and this would be ethnically wrong. But "genre" is simply a descriptor, devoid of moral judgments or immoral judgments. It's a descriptor about the kind of music a person makes. You make it seem like "genre" exists independently from the artist, like it floats up somewhere in the heavens, and no matter what someone says, it stays. But that doesn't make sense. "Genre" is 100% attached to an artist; it is not a separate, independent force. Take an indie aritst like Asaiah Ziv. By your logic, since he started off his career as a "Christian rapper" signed to a Christian label before leaving his faith behind, he should permanently be pigeonholed as such despite not being a Christian anymore. This is obviously slightly different since NF is still a Christian faith-wise, but the same concept applies. "Christian" may be an industry, but it's not a real "genre" of music. NF's new music is explicitly secular now, so that really does put him in the category of twenty one pilots and Relient K, not in the category of say a Casting Crowns. You are a rather stubborn fellow clearly, but I implore you to see reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.98.143 (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Alternative genre

I might be adding fuel to the flame, but in searching for NF's last name's pronunciation, I found sources referring to NF as an alternative artist (usually rendered as "hip-hop/alternative"). I have no experience with determining Wikipedia-safe sources, but http://thesoundopinion.com/2014/08/19/hip-hop-artist-nf-mixes-music-with-a-powerful-message/ http://www.rapzilla.com/rz/news/172-press/8864-hip-hop-alternative-artist-nf-releases-self-titled-ep-today-to-rave-reviews http://www.thechristianbeat.org/index.php/news/1982-therapy-session-the-new-album-from-nf-is-out-now http://www.breathecast.com/articles/nfs-mansion-hits-1-billboard-christian-charts-top-10-rap-26649/ & his bio in AXS (official but still 3rd party?) state him as being of the alternative genre. Maybe posting links isn't acceptable, & if that's the case, then I'll take it down (unless that's also unacceptable?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfcorrea00 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

In the future, it is preferred you put discussed links in brackets, that will take up less space. As for the sources' reliability, I do not know. I seldom edit rap-related articles so I don't know reputable ones dedicated to rap. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 00:35, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2018

The song "Let You Down" currently peaked at #15 on the Hot 100 chart. 2601:82:C380:6715:4DF0:39AF:FE7D:EC54 (talk) 03:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Already done: this edit. Gulumeemee (talk) 06:26, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

New single

Walter, you'd be the first person I've seen with that view. Surely that template must exist for some reason? Is there a policy which prevents us from having it the way it was before? dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 1:26 pm, Today (UTC−5)

The view being discussed is that a single released without an album is a "non-album single" or "non-album track". My position was that if a single isn't associated with an album, simply list it as a non-album track or single, while the edits were that an older song that was never released on an album are a non-album single while newer ones state that the "album" parameter is not applicable. There isn't really a policy, guideline or manual of style that precludes changing it back. The templates are the real problem I have. It makes them stand out when compared to albums. We could raise this to the musicians project. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Christian rapper

I don't want to be known as a Christian rapper, I'm just a rapper who is a Christian. This has been said before, by many, many artists, in many genres that use "Christian" to modify the genre. First, "Christian" here is an adjective that modifies the genre itself, it does not imply a believe system to the music. While the lyrics tend to follow certain themes, that's not always the case. We have Christian rock, Christian hip hop, Christian country music and others. If you can accept that, then we can move onto the second part of the argument.

The genre has some specific music journalists and specific awards. The journalists help determine who is and isn't a member of the genre. The awards are given to members of the genre and sub-genres. There are media outlets and sales channels created for the genre. What several of these groups state determine who is and isn't a member of the group, not the individuals themselves (or bands). NF can say he's a jazz fusion artist, but if no one says he's a jazz fusion artist, then he's doing something wrong. He can say he's not a Christian rapper, but if journalists say he is, if he continues to be awarded GMA nominations, if Christian music sellers keep selling his music, then he's a Christian artist. If he doesn't like it, he can either change his behaviour so that people don't see him as Christian any longer, or he can change his style so he's not performing rap, but until one of those happen, he's going to continue to wear the Christian rapper label. No one is pigeon-holing him any more than music journalists who call other rappers Souther rappers, or East Coast rappers, or hardcore hip hop and list goes on.

Can we please stop the genre warring just because the musician's management told him to drop the "Christian" label? That's what Switchfoot's management company did about a decade ago. They dropped that management and don't complain about the label any longer. We'll all be better off when that happens here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:11, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello. I wanted to chime in and offer my thoughts. We're not warring because we're fighting for something silly on which we can simply agree to disagree. We are fighting over the very nature of music itself. What constitutes a genre, and who gets to define things? You're acting like we're being irrational or that we have some kind of "bias" or "agenda." No, we're simply trying to edit these pages so that everything accurately reflects the artists intentions. Which should absolutely matter.

I'm afraid you're logic is simply nonsensical. You ask those of us on this side of the debate to accept your sentence, "We have Christian rock, Christian hip hop, Christian country music and others. If you can accept that, then we can move onto the second part of the argument," and then you expect us to agree with you so you can continue pressing your point, but see, that's the problem. I don't agree with that (nor do most people on my side of the debate). Christian is not a genre of music. Is there a CCM industry? Yes, but artists that fall into that category are those who make explicitly Christian music or worship music like Hillsong United or Chris Tomlin or Matt Redman. I don't think there's a movement to change the labels of those artists because the music they make is 100% Christian, they play 100% within that market, and they aren't trying to create crossover content! In that case, CCM or worship or whatever you want to call it actually becomes a genre. But take a band like Relient K. Half of their songs are love songs or songs that simply talk about life. Do they happen to be Christians? Yes. And does that come out in their music? Sure. But Chance the Rapper (on the reverse side of this debate) also happens to be a Christian, ironically enough has actually called himself a Christian rapper more recently, and consistently makes gospel-based rap songs (just listen to his Coloring Book album-- he literally covers How Great is Our God, a song that's 100% from the world of CCM music). Yet, I don't see you fighting to label him a Christian rapper. Why? Because he's a rapper who is a Christian, just like NF (and Chance's music is ironically more explicitly Christian). Your argument doesn't make any sense.

A huge reason for that is because so many bands are caught in the middle of two worlds, so things become arbitrary. Is Switchfoot a Christian band? You would say they are, and obviously there was that whole drama with their label a while back. But even now, they don't call themselves a Christian band, their music isn't explicitly "Christian," and they play to plenty of secular music festivals. I think that should be a significant part of a discussion. If a band plays to secular and "Christian" music festivals, why should that make them automatically a "Christian band?" I'm sure artists and bands like Jon Bellion, Chance the Rapper, twenty one pilots, Colony House, Lifehouse, and The Fray (all devout Christians) wouldn't be opposed to playing at a Christian festival if they were asked, and no one is gonna reject an award if they receive it, no matter where it is coming from. Yet I don't think you're calling them Christian artists/bands. But why not? What about a band like Lifehouse? Lifehouse is probably one of the most famous bands caught up in this massive confusion-- journalists constantly call their genre "Christian rock," yet they reject this label. By your logic they should be called Christian rock simply because it is what some journalists call them. So should Evanescence, a band that is even less Christian but still have gotten journalists caught up in the confusion. Where is your line drawn? Simply accepting Christian awards doesn't make you a "Christian artist" any more than being in a garage makes you a car.

Is Owl City a Christian artist? He's charted on both secular and Christian radio, yet most would consider him to be a secular artist. Is Amy Grant? She's 100% charted on both charts and won awards on both charts. Where would you place her? What about Underoath? What about Pedro the Lion (before the guy became an atheist)? What about Lecrae? He has been getting increased recognition in mainstream culture.

You place journalists over the artists themselves, and that simply doesn't make any sense. Why must journalists be the gatekeepers? Surely, if you don't believe the artist's viewpoint matters, then you believe the people's viewpoint matters? If an artist like NF has a fanbase that's quite diverse (pretty evenly split between secular and devout), regularly preforms at secular festivals, markets to everyone, and doesn't even have explicitly Christian lyrics most of the time, why the hell must his label be "Christian" an not simply "rapper?" It doesn't make any sense.

All this would be solved if you stopped listening "Christian" as a genre unless it actually made sense (like Casting Crowns or Third Day). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 02:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I stopped reading when I read "your logic is nonsensical" because it's not. I'll ask you one question: Have any of NF's works won a Gospel Music Association Dove award? If so, he's an artist in the Christian marketplace. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

And now anonymous editors are removing the term from references written by media. The title of http://www.rapzilla.com/rz/news/38-backstage/11517-nf-receives-placement-on-madden-nfl-16-soundtrack is "Christian rapper receives placement on 'Madden NFL 16' soundtrack". Censoring that information is simply wrong. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

That's also ridiculous. If you had actually read what I had said, instead of just smugly holding onto your position, you would have seen that several of my arguments made sense and you would have actually tried to respond to them on their own merits just like I did to yours. I never said that he has never won a gospel music association award. But that alone doesn't make someone a Christian artist. If that were the case, what do you do about artists who have won both secular and supposedly "Christian" awards? Or what do you do with artists that chart on both Christian and secular radio like Lifehouse and Owl City? Do you label them Christian outfits? Well, not on Wikipedia! You give them the freedom to identify how they want to be identified. There is even a clause on the Lifehouse Wikipedia page which says "Despite popular belief, Jason Wade has stated that Lifehouse is not a 'Christian band', and although some songs have spiritual influence, their lyrics are open to self-interpretation." By your logic this should be removed, and Lifehouse should be listed as a Christian band, even though they're not, simply because many journalists say they are (I mean, even JesusFreaksHideout covers them, for crying out loud). I agree that censoring such links is wrong, but also censoring links to other journalistic sources is wrong. This all has to do with a larger question of "what constitutes a genre?" You think that just because you've edited so many different articles and because you have Wikipedia on your side that you're automatically "right," but this isn't remotely the case. You're not an "expert." You're not a "god." You're just a human like the rest of us. Question: was NF a "Christian artist" when he made that song with Futuristic, a song that has swearing in it? Surely, that doesn't make him part of the "Christian industry." Why can't you just admit that the music he makes isn't specifically for Christian audiences but for everyone (and his lyrics aren't even that distinctly Christian). Another thing you should note is that he was actually recently moved from CMG to Capitol's larger, secular label, so the argument that he is forever to be listed as a Christian artist make even less sense. He is just as much of a Christian artist as Chance the Rapper is, a point you have not addressed because you saw fit to stop reading simply because you didn't like my first sentence and thought your position as an "experienced" editor gave you an elitist edge to dismiss all criticism. The simple fact of the matter is: Christian is not a genre; it is a faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 11:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Even his current single is on the Christian charts. http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/7981628/nf-let-you-down-ricky-dillard-christian-gospel-charts and despite your complains, Billboard calls him a what? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I love how you just skipped over all of the logical arguments I made just to continue reiterating the point you made before that I sharply argued against. I have a question for you: why does Billboard call him a "Christian rapper?" Maybe it's because people like you continue to perpetuate a misconception. It's a self-defeating cycle. I fail to see how charting on Christian charts automatically makes you a Christian artist if that's not what you want to be/not what you consider yourself as. What's an artist supposed to do; not allow their album or single to chart wherever it ends up charting? Again, Christian is not a genre; it's a faith. Evanescence (with their song "Bring Me to Life") charted on Christian charts back in the day, but few would call them a Christian band. Lifehouse has charted numerous times on Christian charts, yet Wikipedia doesn't list them as a Christian band. Why? Because they've explicitly stated that they're not one! It doesn't make sense to pigeonholed an artist into a "genre" (that's not actually a genre) they don't want to belong to. Think about this logically. None of his recent singles even mention God or Christianity once. I mean, seriously. Listen to Green Lights, Let You Down, and Outro. None of them are distinctly "Christian" songs. They are simply songs about his life. So it simply doesn't make sense to list his principle genre as "Christian rap." It's just inaccurate. You can make a strong argument that an artist like Flame and an artist like Bizzle are Christian rappers because they're music is 100% Christian in nature. But you really can't make the argument that NF and Lecrae and Aha Gazelle, for example, are "Christian rappers" if you're not also willing to make the argument that Chance the Rapper (who, like I said before, talks about God more directly than a NF or an Andy Mineo does) is not a Christian rapper. Either they both are, or they both aren't. When Elvis made a Christmas gospel album that charted on both charts, did he suddenly become a "Christian artist?" When Johnny Cash and U2 make/made their spiritually infused music, were they forced to call their genre "Christian?" Hell, the band Creed from the 90s is full of Jesus-inspired lyrics (and they were called a Christian band all the time by countless journalists), yet they aren't listed as one.

NF's new album isn't even released under Capitol CMG; it's released under his own brand (NF Real Music, LLC), and if you look on Capitol's website, he's been promoted to the main Capitol page and taken off the Christian page. On a similar note, Lecrae is signed to COLUMBIA RECORDS (alongside cultural mainstays like Beyoncé and Adele)-- and he's not even signed to the gospel subsection. You sound like a broken record because you're not actually addressing my specific, highly logical arguments. The simple fact of the matter is: "Christian" is not a genre; it's a faith (source for your entertainment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQdZQH1dA8E) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 20:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring you any more than you are ignoring the reliable sources I've provided and are provided in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:41, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

How am I ignoring your sources? I completely acknowledged your sources and responded to them specifically. I said that Billboard labeling something "Christian" doesn't automatically consign it to that genre (which isn't even actually a genre, as I've argued). You're ignoring all the other sources/arguments contrary to your faulty opinion. I've presented a lot of specific arguments that you haven't responded to, because you know you can't respond to. Like honestly, you haven't responded to anything. You're just a broken record. Question: is Sufjan Stevens a Christian artist, according to you? What about Lifehouse? What about Owl City? What about P.O.D.? What about Anberlin? What about Flyleaf? What about Lifehouse? All of these are bands and artists who have been listed as Christian bands/artists by multiple journalistic sources, yet (with the exception of P.O.D.) their Wikipedia page doesn't list them as Christian bands! Why? BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY IS A FAITH, NOT A FREAKING GENRE OF MUSIC! Artists like NF fall into the exact same category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 01:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

And rock is is a natural substance, a solid aggregate of one or more minerals or mineraloids. Oh, no it's not. A genre is what experts determine it is. As I stated above, "Christian" is an adjective. It does not describe the music itself, any more than "Eurodance" holds a European passport, "Southern rock" or "Southern hip hop" has a residence south of the Mason-Dixon line, or "Conscious hip hip" is awake, thinking, and knowing what is happening around it.

Your arguments about the bands and performers are similarly misplaced. None of the examples you provided have 1) charted on "Christian" radio, 2) won awards distributed by Christian music organizations. Are there sources that call them Christian? If so, we should discuss that at those articles, not here. Here, we have multiple sources that support the claim.

And you mentioned Twenty One Pilots, who are an excellent example of what we have here. They refer to their genre as "schizoid pop", but why doesn't that "genre" appear on their article? The answer: it's not what reliable sources call them. And even though Lecrae, who you also mentioned, wants "Christian" dropped, because reliable sources call him a Christian hip hop artist, that's what the project calls him. It's what's call venerability. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's a patently false statement because Flyleaf, P.O.D., Anberlin, Owl City, and Lifehouse have all definitely charted on Christian radio, and they are regularly listed as Christian bands in the same way that NF is listed as a Christian artist. Yet they aren't! Because Christianity is a faith, not a genre. Lupe Fiasco is a Muslim who makes Islam-inspired hip-hop. Do you call him a Muslim rapper? No. Your argument still doesn't make sense. He's often listen as a socially-conscious rapper, and if anything, Lecrae's recent music falls into that category. You're arguing that a "reliable source" provides the final argument for what an artist's genre is, even if they music they make doesn't correlate with that. Just because a "source" says something doesn't make it universally true. I would argue that schizoid pop should appear as one of twenty one pilots's genres. Definitely not the first genre, but as one of the genres. There's no reason not to. I never said you should get rid of all references to the CHH scene in NF's article (or Lecrae's article, for that matter). I just said it definitely shouldn't be listed in the first sentence as if that accurately describes the music he makes. It should be moved to a later part of the article. For all bands/artists/rappers who fall into this murky middle, there should even be a separate section within the article that references the whole "are they a Christian artist?" debate. There is precedent for that on many Wikipedia pages, but there is also inconsistency. A band like Relient K is simply called a rock band in their first sentence, and then subsequent sentences explain their connection to the Christian music industry. That's totally fine. Same thing with Switchfoot's article. But then you look at an article like Underoath. They are listed as a Christian metalcore band in the first sentence, even though the music they make falls into the same exact category!

Calling NF 100% a Christian rapper is completely disingenuous. His fan base and audience is much wider than narrowly faith based. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 02:53, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry. If you think that relying on what reliable sources say is false, you have no common ground with Wikipedia. You're attributing an argument to me that I am not making so I'm done with this conversation. When you actually engage my discussion points, I will reconsider discussing. As it stands, the article is locked to you and the other persona who were editing recently. I'll assume good faith and believe that they were not all you. The article will likely be permanently on pending edits which means that any changes will draw alerts to a larger community and will have to be approved. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

And for the record, if you can find reliable sources that discuss his style that don't use "Christian", we could open a style section up and include a discussion there then add that content to the infobox. The problem is, there are currently no such sources and so we're left with what we have. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

You're as fool. And a poor example for a Christian. You will have to answer for your snobbery one day. And for your stubbornness. You are not Wikipedia's gatekeeper, and I AM actively engaging your discussion points. Please explain to me how I'm not doing so. I've explicitly responded to each of the points I've made. You're the one who is not doing so. You latch onto one thing I say and ignore the rest of my paragraph. You completely ignored all of my logical points about Underoath, Anberlin, Relient K, and Switchfoot, bands that fall into the exact same category as NF. How many times do I have to say that I don't believe "Christian" is a genre of music unless it specifically describes the music they make as is the case with an artist like Chris Tomlin or Matt Redman. Do you deny that NF is currently signed to the larger Capitol label (and his own independent label), not the Christian label? If you can sufficiently explain to me how NF 100% belongs to the non-existent genre of CHH, I will agree with you. But I simply reject your idea that Christian should be used as an adjective when describing music (and certainly not in the first sentence). It's a noun, not an adjective. Also answer this: if you were an artist, would you want your music to reflect your intentions or would you want it to reflect what some "journalists" say? Who decides an artist's fate? What if you made rock music but consistently got labeled as a country artist for no good reason? IT WOULD BE FRUSTRATING, RIGHT! It's the same exact issue here. And like I said, if you're such a police of labels, why do you not apply the same consistency to all bands? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 11:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry you're frustrated. Have you bothered to read WP:V and WP:RS? I linked to the former above and the latter is a corollary of it. Wikipedia is only permitted to make statements were people using it can check that the information comes from a reliable source. If a reliable source states NF is a Christian rapper, then we state that he is a Christian rapper. If he doesn't consider himself to be a Christian rapper, we state that he doesn't consider himself to be a Christian rapper. Both of those have happened in this article as it currently stands, however only the majority of voices get to inform the infobox. Journalists do get to decide an artist's fate. That's why so many of them are courted by labels to make specific statements about those artists. I have conversed with many of them. Some are blacklisted because they don't do what the artist's management states, but you can't blacklist all of them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:01, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Honest question: do you think "Christian" is a style of music? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.212.156 (talk) 02:43, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Honest answer: you've missed the point yet again—it's not what I (or you) think that matters, it's what reliable sources think. Have you read WP:V or not? If you have, you have not understood it. There are several links in it to other policies (such as Wikipedia:No original research) that you should also read to understand how Wikipedia works. And before you flog that dead horse again, yes, what journalists write does get to decide an artist's fate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

It seems as though a writer didn't get the memo: NF bringing faith and hip-hop to Fillmore Miami Beach and the writer elected to quote the lyric, "I don't live for the world. I live for the King". The author then goes on to tow management's line and quotes the Christian plumber nonsense, since there were Christian Yellow Pages at one point, and plumbers advertising their services as "Christian" as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:54, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

And it’s happening again, this time on his Therapy Session article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Possible rewording

His mother died from an overdose in 2009 which led to him dedicating the song "How Could You Leave Us" to her.[7]

Could be perhaps be worded better to be a little more sensitive, and more sequentially correct:

The song "How Could You Leave Us", a song he wrote in 2009 is dedicated to his mother who died from an overdose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alessakinz (talk • contribs) 07:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Did she die from the overdose in 2009 or did he write the song in 2009? Either way, be WP:BOLD and re-write it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:45, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

He can’t: the page is protected. —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) ^{(/tɔːk/ – /ˈkɒntɹɪbs/)} 14:00, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Not all released songs are singles

Just because "Chasing_(Demo)" was released does not mean it is a single. I do not know why we keep adding it to various singles tables in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2020

Add a bit to the career section saying that since October 19, his song The Search has been used as the theme song for the WWE show Monday Night Raw. 92.239.164.74 (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2021

NF is a father now. (Personal Life) Sramosc23 (talk) 14:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EN-Jungwon 15:15, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

And ideally the wording to use when adding. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:20, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2021

Change the RIAA certification of both The search (album) and when grow up (single) from gold to platinum. 182.186.5.113 (talk) 15:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done The sources support the statement. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:51, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2021

As the Publisher of both FAKE and ConArt Magazines [email protected] as well as the President of Aravoth Record Entertainment (ARE) you can search mazel tov records, Michael Klein whip that sissy!, and with charitable foundation search handsomely homeless, I have actually been a long-time editor and monetary contributor to Wikipedia as well, when possible in the annual campaigns.

That being said, I could not remember my decade-ago login information so I made this new account a year ago. 2 days ago and for the first time, I clicked on a YouTube Music email to have me check out something, I have ignored hundreds of these in the past as I am known as DJPM lights out. I was taken aback at the talent, then googled the artist and noticed 2 extremely familiar things: the family name, and growing up in Michigan 48169, where he was born, which Michiganders would refer to as 'up north' and I had a tremendous amount of dealings in Coleman, MI, a tiny town just south of Gladwin when I was regional coordinator placing high school foreign exchange students in homes, c. 2004-2007.

Since 1992 8th grade I have been involved in the Entertainment business as both an artist and and Executive Producer and Talent Manager, then Publicist. My companies are listed in ImdbPro under Michael Klein (XXIV), and my advocate is the same as Lion's Gate hires for films.

All of this being said, the second thing that was recognizable IMMEDIATELY was his family name, and the other names too but I will get to that in a minute. The citation needed (that shows after the how to pronounce the last name, I do not know how to link those characters so I will spell it out) is thus: Feührer pronunciation from the Germanic however Yiddish hybrid of the term 'leader' & Shteen pronunciation from the Germanic but Jewish pronounced clay-based jar that Americans would see as a ceramic beer mug, invented in the late 1800s, probably for Oktoberfest.

I am a dual citizen of Israel and the USA since August 17th, 2001, age 23, and know Holocaust survivor and otherwise descendants, the origin of names, and the Hebrew language. I became the youngest foster Dad of all time there, took in twins age 13 since right thing to do they were in danger, showed them another path, as they say, and now have 2 grandsons from one of them, the twins are 32. Over the years I have taken in 17 altogether, even adopted adults in a caregiving role, and currently count 10, 9 sons, one daughter globally ages 24-33.

This artists complete name is something else, and it makes sense as I am an ancient Hebrew scholar, chabad.org is the strictest translation but I still find errors when I print the Bible out and correct them. Jonathan (יְהוֹנָתָן; Yəhōnāṯān or Yehonatan) <ref Wikipedia> is actually since there are no vowels in Hebrew YHoNaTaN, meaning: YH gave (Psalm 68:5 'by his name YH' Also the globally known 'praise be to YH aka HALLELUYH <ref chabad.org> which is funny since Nathan is half of YHoNaTan and NaTaN happens to be his FIRST NAME as well so ALLTOGTHER, נתן he gave (gift) Nathan יהונתן YH gave (gift) John Feuerstein A leader made of clay

Natan haNavi or Nathan the Prophet was the one that confronted King David about the Bat Shevah (daughter seven literal translation) affair, and Psalm 51 was born directly after. This types YHVH TZAVAOT (of Hosts). https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANF_%28rapper%29&preload=Template%3ASubmit+an+edit+request%2Fpreload&action=edit&section=new&editintro=Template%3AEdit+semi-protected%2Feditintro&preloadtitle=Semi-protected+edit+request+on+31+March+2021&preloadparams%5B%5D=edit+semi-protected&preloadparams%5B%5D=NF+%28rapper%29

By Michael Klein aka Citizen Klein 2336 PST on his 30th birthday - whew! just made it.

I am a known Sociologist and will have MS in Cybersecurity IT Mgmt when the program completes as far as education is concerned <ref snhu.edu> The Percolator (talk) 06:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

No actual edit requested. Closing request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2021

NF is married to Bridgette Doremus, since september 2018 and they have a baby together, name is not known. 123.201.233.110 (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 11:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, a source for the marriage, the name of his wife and the birth would be needed to add each detail Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Associated acts and lists

So the main issues appear to be the unnecessary use of lists. The {{Infobox musical artist}} is clear on the use of lists: they're only needed when there are more than three items present. Changing for supposed aesthetics is not a valid reason. Also, the associated acts only interacted with the subject on one song each, clearly not significant involvement. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Forgot the removal of the award as well. Not sure why we would want that gone. No reasons given by either of the editors. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2021

"Change Let you down RIAA certification to 6x Platinum" 39.42.171.82 (talk) 17:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done Source was already available in article. --Muhandes (talk) 23:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2021

"Change RIAA certification of the single clouds to gold" 39.36.27.238 (talk) 07:15, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done I was updating the certifications anyway and the source for all of them is the same. In the future, please specify the exact source, even if it seems obvious to you. --Muhandes (talk) 10:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

If it's obvious sourcing like this, why not just check the sources accordingly since the page is protected and simply reply with "Done" when we finish adding it? It's an IP, they most likely aren't going to understand/are not interested in learning how to cite sources. dannymusiceditor ^oops 15:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry DannyMusicEditor, but I don't understand what you are suggesting and I would like to improve. For me this request is obvious, so if I was here before a previous editor rejected this request, I would have accepted the request, added the certification and replied with "Done". However, another editor beat me to it and rejected the request. Rather than leaving it as undone, I replied with "Done", and to avoid this in the future, suggested to the IP that they should provide an exact source in the future even if it seems obvious to them. Are you suggesting I should not try to educate IPs? --Muhandes (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2021

"Change RIAA certification of the single clouds to gold" 39.36.57.250 (talk) 05:29, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done Muhandes (talk) 07:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Muhandes, I am late on replying to the above statement, but honestly I was just asking why you didn't just do this instead to save yourself time. It is my belief that generally if an IP honestly wanted to know how to do that, they would ask or better yet create an account. That's all. This one is welcome to prove me wrong, though. dannymusiceditor ^oops 01:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

remove the "christian hip-hop" tag

-seems very odd putting that tag there, since the page later says NF doesn't consider his music christian.2600:1700:DD4:B50:B168:A602:A7B:D0D0 (talk) 01:00, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

His songs chart as Christian, what he thinks is immaterial. --Muhandes (talk) 07:51, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Songs

Sing The business 47.6.20.75 (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Should we create a page for his first album, "Moments"?

Only NF album that is without a page and looks like it has some significant coverage. I dunno where to discuss this, but this looked like the best place to discuss it, so please tell me if I'm wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CertifiedAmazing2 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

IF it meets the criteria at WP:GNG, it could be created, possibly through WP:AFC. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

yes I think that is an amazing idea! 103.68.229.60 (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2023

2600:4040:B3D1:7500:A4C6:A935:BE36:6CD7 (talk) 15:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Wrong info

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 02:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Number issue

Please change "after 3 years of dating" to "after three years of dating" as this follows the correct number formatting. 2604:3D08:9B7B:E800:80E2:E3F5:EF2A:AF9A (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:NF which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:17, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

"Happy" is a single. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CquIqQGgNKC/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Kindly include "Happy"as a single in the discography section. Thewanbasan (talk) 20:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed split

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to split. @HungryHighway and Nintendoswitchfan: Feel free to perform the split, or ask me for help if anything is unclear. Felix QW (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

---

NF's discography is becoming extensive, with 6 studio albums, 2 EPs, a mixtape, and over 25 singles, which come out to well over 100 songs, the majority of which have charted on multiple countries' national music charts, and multiple have been nominated for and won major music awards as well.

I believe it's time to split the discography section into a separate article titled NF discography. If we can get a consensus, I will split the articles. HungryHighway (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree to split. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 17:19, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Has he considered

Has NF considered therapy for his metal illness? L 2600:8803:5A00:E60:41F3:C9D0:E8EA:66D4 (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Is metal illness another way of describing being stabbed?

Feuerstein's wife, Bridgette announced she was expecting their second child via Instagram

That'll be a first - having a child via Instagram. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:A61:5160:2B01:BCC0:E90F:816C:82F8 (talk) 17:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)