Talk:Maddie Ziegler/Archive 3

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The lead section

I think the lead section is structured fairly odd and I propose it be changed to this. Also some facts were incorrect or incomplete so i"ve amended them

Madison Nicole Ziegler (/ˈzɪɡlər/ ZIG-lər; born September 30, 2002) is an American dancer, actress, author and model. She was initially known for appearing in Lifetime's reality show Dance Moms from 2011 (at age 8) until 2016. From 2014 to 2017, she gained wider recognition for starring in a trilogy of music videos by Sia, called the 1000s Forms of Fear including "Chandelier" which have in total attracted more than 5 billion views on YouTube. Ziegler also featured in videos for This is Acting, Everyday is Christmas, LSD and Music. Ziegler was a judge on the 2016 season of So You Think You Can Dance: The Next Generation. She was a featured dancer in the worldwide Nostalgic for the Present Tour (2016-2017), iHeartRadio Music Festival (2016), The Wonderful World of Disney: Disneyland 60 (2016), Coachella https://www.teenvogue.com/story/maddie-ziegler-coachella-performance-with-sia (2016), the Dubai World Cup (2017), and Japanese Fuji Rock Festival (2019). Ziegler travelled in Australia, New Zealand and the UK https://www.eicc.co.uk/whats-on/maddie-mackenzie-uk-tour-2019/ for dance workshop tours with her sister in 2017, 2018 and 2019.

Ziegler has modelled for large fashion houses, such as being the face of Kate Spade in 2020 https://www.euphoriazine.com/blog/2020/11/beauty-maddie-ziegler-kate-spade-perfume/ and has graced the cover of magazines such as Seventeen. As an actress Ziegler has appeared in the television shows such as Pretty Little Liars (2015) and Nicky, Ricky, Dicky & Dawn (2015-2016). She has voiced the character Camille Le Haut in the animated film Ballerina (2016) and appeared in the feature film The Book of Henry (2017). Her 2017 memoir, The Maddie Diaries, was a New York Times Best Seller."NYT Bestsellers Young Adult Hardcover", The New York Times Best Seller list, March 26, 2017, accessed March 17, 2017 She then released her teen book trilogy called The Dance Your Heart Out Collection. Her social media presence includes an Instagram account with more than 13 million followers. She was included by Time magazine on its list of the "30 most influential teens" in each of 2015, 2016 and 2017. Among the accolades received by Maddie are 3 Teen Choice Awards, a People's Choice Award and 3rd Runner up in the Dance Awards. 213.205.241.104 (talk) 18:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with all of this. Not only is the grammar poor, it includes numerous MOS errors, and it does not provide a good overview of the article per WP:LEAD. Also, please don't mess up the formatting of talk pages by adding ref tags on them. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the edits made to the lead section are more accurate and provide a better summary of her career. I does not make sense to list half the tour with Sia. Half the tours with her sister. Or leave out the other music projects she has been in. Also I believe her acclaimed awards are just are important as her appearance in time magazine. 85.1.112.11 (talk) 07:21, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I also disagree with the edits you made to the lead section. The edits make the lead of this article harder to read, contained numerous red links, and errors. 1000 Forms of Fear is the name of the studio album, not the trilogy of music videos Maddie featured in. The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. MarsToutatis ^talk 11:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

IP, you added that Ziegler toured with Sia in Asia. She did not tour in Asia (with Sia or otherwise), but only made two separate concert appearances. One performance in Dubai (2017) and one performance in Japan (2019). These two performances are not necessary to refer to in the WP:LEAD. Also, note that Teen Vogue is wrong about Coachella. Ziegler did NOT appear at Coachella, except in recorded segments. The dancer who actually danced with Sia at Coachella (and who is pictured in the Teen Vogue article) is Stephanie Mincone, who has often toured with Sia. Also, the Kate Spade modelling does not yet appear to be Noteworthy; have they even sold any merchandise yet related to Ziegler? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

i think her peoples choice, teen choice awards and dancers award should be in her lead. Other celebrities have theirs set up like this 2A02:1205:5017:B0:F5D1:5363:595B:C2B1 (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Those "awards" are very popular with children, but they do not demonstrate noteworthy critical acclaim like an Academy Award, an Emmy, Tony, Grammy, or Olivier Award. That's why we can reluctantly mention them in the body of the article, but not the WP:LEAD. This is an encyclopedia, not a teen entertainment magazine. If you let me know what other celebrities you mean, I will be happy to remove them from their Lead sections. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Edits edits to header

- I think this should be changed in the header, Music has been privately screened and she has two more movies out in 2021 so this structure will make it easier to add them.

Ziegler made her film debut with a minor role as Christina Sickleman in the feature film The Book of Henry (2017). Her most notable roles include the voice character of Camille Le Haut in the animated film Ballerina (2016) and Music in the musical film Music (2021).

The Lead should (and already does) mention The Book of Henry (her role was NOT minor -- she was a central character that precipitates the entire plot), Ballerina and, once it is released, Music (but not until then, per WP:CRYSTAL). Her other upcoming films do not appear to merit a mention in the Lead section, but in any case, again, see WP:Crystal. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

"Ziegler has appeared in films, television shows, concerts, advertisements and on magazine covers."

- this line in the header is not necessary since her best acting work is outlined. - i think it can state her modelling clearly as

Ziegler has walked and modelled high-fashion designers such as Dior and Ralph Lauren. She has done multiple editorials and cover shoots for Seventeen and Teen Vogue, and is a face of Kate Spade.

Nicole738 (talk) 11:00, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

The sentence you object to provides the "overview" required by WP:LEAD. The sentence you want to add emphasizes trivia and is gimmicky/jargon: "walked", "face of". How you selected those particular examples I have no idea, but they certainly do not provide an overview of Ziegler's best-known work. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Who Australia

She was named by WHO / People magazine as one of the most Famous Dancers In The Past And Present (this should be added to the lead) https://www.who.com.au/famous-dancers-top-15-of-all-time

Nicole738 (talk) 11:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

This can go in the body of the article, but Who Australia is a local entertainment publication that hardly merits a mention in the Lead. Why did you call it People magazine? By the way, I do appreciate that you have a lot of ideas for Ziegler's entry in the encyclopedia, and this Who Australia article is helpful, as long as it is not used in a way that gives it undue weight. See WP:BALASP -- In fact, if you click on that link, it will help you learn about balancing considerations in encyclopedia writing. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Alright I will look through the link. Who (australia) and People (USA) are sister companies. Nicole738 (talk) 14:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Edits edits to body of article

In the body of the article these should be added:

In 2019 She collaborated with Dior for the Dior foundation - The foundation was ranked by vogue as 1st worldwide. - She appeared in a short film captured by director Barbara Anastacio answering 24 questions about herself for the campaign. - THE CAMPAIGN RECEIVED A DRUMS DIGITAL ADVERTISING AWARDS NOMINATION FOR BEST BRANDED VIDEO CAMPAIGN.

in 2018 She was featured dancing in a tiffany and co campaign “Believe in Dreams” campaign for the new Paper Flowers jewellery collection. - where she danced with Elle Fanning. - the whimsical setting accentuates Maddies's quirky yet ethereal dancing. - "Moon River," by hip-hop artist A$AP Ferg with Fanning's vocals was the song playing.

In 2020 Maddie Ziegler was the face of the Kate Spades new fragrance. - Sold in over 1,200 Ulta stores, major U.S. department stores and major European Asian Middle Eastern and Latin American markets - starting Nov. 15

Nicole738 (talk) 08:33, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Ziegler's "collaboration" with Dior has not produced a significant amount of products. Once it does, we can add it. Until then, we should not. Drums award is not an Oscar, and Ziegler did not win this award. This article is about Ziegler, not Dior. We already list Tiffany as one of Ziegler's endorsements; further information about her brief appearance in the ad is too trivial to mention. Kate Spade: again, if you have a source that states that the product endorsed by Ziegler was a particularly successful product, we could add it. It appears to be only one of hundreds or thousands of Kate Spade products. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

If the product she collaborated on was ranked 1st (out of all foundations) by Vogue doesn't that indicate it sold a significant amount. Most companies dont release how many of a product is sold, reviews from companies like Vogue and Allure would tell the public. The collaboration also wasnt small she was featured in a number of videos for the brand. Allure magazine gave it acclaim. Nicole738 (talk) 15:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

What you need is an article by a news organzation that states that the product is important. Not something released by the company itself. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:08, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

The company is Dior and that is not the ONLY reference used. The product has been highly acclaimed by most fashion magazines. None of the reviews have been by Dior. Dior does not own any of the companies below. Nor are any of the reviews contributed by readers. Vogue (NEWS ORGANISATION)has named it number 1 in 2020 for foundations (THREREFORE AN IMPORTANT PRODUCT). Dazed is the reference another news organisation. The NY Stategist named it one of the best for makeup artists. Allure called it the Best of Beauty winner (foundation) Nicole738 (talk) 07:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I just looked at the Vogue article, and it doesn't even mention Ziegler. If the news article doesn't say that the product is important to Ziegler's career, then it should not be mentioned in Ziegler's article. It might be worth mentioning in the Dior article, if it is a key Dior product. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

New photo

Does anyone have a new photo, I believe she is now an adult, and the current photograph looks dated. CaffeinAddict (talk) 06:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

LSD

Nonsensical "discussion" between sockpuppets.

I think her work with LSD should be in her introduction. She was in 2 music videos and 500M views LSD - Thunderclouds (Official Video) ft. Sia, Diplo, Labrinth LSD - No New Friends (Official Video) ft. Labrinth, Sia, Diplo Rolling Stones, Billboards and other made articles after the release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:501B:C190:E1A2:210E:75FB:3D9 (talk) 05:29, 22 January 2021 (UTC) I dont think the LSD views are necessary Nicole738 (talk) 05:41, 22 January 2021 (UTC) it is important for her career, working with diplo and labrinth is different than her sia videos. I think it is not trivial, especialy because she is firstly a dancer. The views show how popular they were. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:501B:C190:E1A2:210E:75FB:3D9 ([[User talk:2A02:1205:501B:C190:E1A2:210E:75FB:3D9#top|talk]]) 05:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC) I would support adding LSD to the intro, I think that is what her readers expect LaylasTIN (talk) 05:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC) I dont see a problem with adding LSD it is her notable work, i dont think the views are needed for LSD or the Sia videos Nicole738 (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC) I support putting LSD, its a good overview of her work post chandelier Charlidem70 (talk) 06:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC) The LSD videos represent only about 10% of Ziegler's YouTube music video views. Of course, the LSD videos are mentioned later in the article and are appropriate there. "Thunderclouds" has received 443 million views. It is less prominent in Ziegler's dance career than Chandelier (2.3 billion views), Elastic Heart (1.1 billion views), The Greatest (700 million views) and Cheap Thrills (550 million views). There is no reason to single it out, especially not in the first paragraph. The previous version ended the first paragraph with a general recap of Ziegler's career and importance, whereas now it lists specific items of arguable importance to her career. I suggest that we return to the earlier viersion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:30, 23 January 2021 (UTC) I agree that the LSD videos are important, but they are not important enough to list them in the lead, which should continue to be focused on the general highlights of her career and not on specifics, such as individual music videos. Somambulant1 (talk) 03:43, 23 January 2021 (UTC) Both LSD videos represented 500M views. I think the LSD videos are important enough for the lead. I think it provides a better summary of her work to date. She has 2 LSD videos and has performed with them 2019-2020 so those are highlights in her career. I think thunderclouds is just an example of her work with them rather than a specific. For an actor you put the specific most popular movies they did, rather than the most popular film they did years ago. I think her collaborations with LSD, both the music videos and performances are important and the music videos are highlights. Nicole738 (talk) 05:29, 23 January 2021 (UTC) I think it should be in the introduction. But in the second paragraph. Since that paragraph is in chronological order it makes sense after “The Book of Henry” before “Music”. I think it falls in the category of her major accomplishemnts but not the first paragraph which is a general recap. I disagree that is has arguable importance (500M for the 2 videos, and multiple performances). And since the second paragraph has specifics I see it as a lot more important than her tours with her sister and social media accounts. ALSO MADDIE ONLY TOURED WITH SIA IN 2017. Keylinepie (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2021 (UTC) I think the person above has a good compromise. So it can go in the second paragraph? I am adding it. Its not edit warring if most people agree Nicole738 (talk) 06:49, 23 January 2021 (UTC) LSD work can be added to the introduction, I don’t understand why it’s so debated when it’s a big part of her career Charlidem70 (talk) 05:58, 23 January 2021 (UTC) I think a sentence about her LSD videos should be included, in the second paragraph. I think it’s a significant part of her career.LaylasTIN (talk) 06:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC) I think this discussion has consensus only Somambulant1 (talk) and Ssilvers (talk) disagree so far. Nicole738 (talk) 06:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC) Please dont edit war discuss it here

Edits to Introduction

1. The sentence below is redundant, all her major projects in "film, TV and concerts" are in the intro already. It just adds adverts and covers for her modelling. I propose it is changed to one sentence summarising her modelling career. "Ziegler has appeared in films, television shows, concerts, advertisements and on magazine covers"

2. I think her accolades should be at the end - the NY best seller and times magazine - rather than random throughout the article

- i have edited it

2A02:1205:501B:C190:E1A2:210E:75FB:3D9 (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I think leave it how it is until there are more accolades won? Nicole738 (talk) 16:11, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

The earlier viersion is better organized with a general recap of her career in the first paragraph, followed by a second paragraph that lays out some of her major accomplishments. This is a more sensible organization of the Lead. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

The version of the intro that was there prior to the recent series of edits was a very stable version that had remained unchanged for a long time. It succinctly summarized her career while focusing on the highlights rather than the specifics. Per the bold, revert, discuss cycle, I am reverting to the previous version until a clear WP:Consensus regarding any proposed changes to the stable version is reached. Somambulant1 (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Cannot fault the reasoning of Ssilvers and Somambulant1 above. Jack1956 (talk) 10:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I support keeping the stable version of the lead which I think has a more coherent structure and introduction to this article than the recent proposed changes. MarsToutatis ^talk 15:04, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Raspberry Awards, or Razzies

Why is this award listed in her intro? Razzies tend not to go in intro paragraphs for other actors. Especially as her peoples choice isnt included. It seems like a vindictive choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.193.116.204 (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Fallout in her Intro

Her part as Mia in The Fallout should be in her introduction. She is second billed, she has been praised for her performance, it is the largest speaking part she has ever had and the film has won awards. Multiple news sources have discussed it and brought up her performance. It has been added to Jennas and other smaller actors in the film. Surely its just as noteworthy as Ballerina or The Book of Henry. Dancer174 (talk) 13:35, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, I've added it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

Can someone please add an infobox for Maddie Ziegler’s page? I would normally do it myself, but I’m a new user who needs to learn and I don’t want to mess anything up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazychickennthang (talk • contribs) 22:30, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and added it, the rationale from 5 years ago no longer applies to the current article and even back then it was clearly faulty. Devonian Wombat (talk) 02:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

And I'm removing it again. There is no consensus to add one. As has been noted in the past consensus *not* to include the infobox, while sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not. See arbitration report: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader". I disagree with including an infobox in this article because: (1) The box would emphasize unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, in competition with the WP:LEAD section, which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points in the article are already discussed in the Lead, or adequately discussed in the body of the article, the box would be redundant. (3) It would take up valuable space at the top of the article and hamper the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, as updates are made to the articles but not reflected in the redundant info in the box, and they tend to draw more vandalism and fancruft than other parts of articles. (5) The infobox template creates a block of code at the top of the edit screen that discourages new editors from editing the article. (6) It would discourage readers from reading the text of the article. (7) IBs distract editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. See also WP:DISINFOBOX. Note that, the editors who favor the infobox are not the editors who have actually done the hard work of updating and expanding this article over the years. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Just stating my opinion here, as someone who believe that infobox should be added on all bio/person article (I also believe that some article such as McCarthyism don't need an infobox). However I don't expect the infobox to be added in this article because many anti-infobox has watched this page anyway. Here's why infobox should be added on all bio/person article. (1) Age: It may seem trivial but it's important for me and I don't want to do math for that. (2) It identifies that the article is about bio/person: Most bio/person have infobox and if it doesn't have one I found it inconvenient and weird. I know articles on musician/composers don't have it but I still found it inconvenient and weird. Why this article doesn't have infobox while others such as Gaten Matarazzo, Caleb McLaughlin, Natalia Dyer, and many others have it? (which is a shame for those who believe that infobox is "redundant", well, you can't even consistent at removing infobox at similar articles; for comparision here's this article before infobox was removed). Hddty (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I too am in favour of info-boxes where appropriate, but I don't think that applies here. As to leaving boxes intact elsewhere, in my experience editors sceptical about info-boxes in arts biographies are more tolerant than the members of the every-article-must-have-an-infor-box brigade. The former will usually leave an article unmolested; the same cannot always be said of the latter. Tim riley talk 09:48, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Infobox addition

This article remains without Infobox for over years. The subject or article seems having technical or controversial problem for any readers. The Supermind (talk) 11:44, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that an infobox would be helpful in this article for the reasons explained in the infobox discussion above under the heading Infobox Discussion (2017). -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I would support adding an infobox, I think that is what most readers expect. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I do not support adding an infobox. Important info is detailed in the lead paragraph(s) and does not need to be duplicated. Somambulant1 (talk) 01:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I do not support an infobox for the reasons cited above. An infobox would contain nothing that isn’t in a carefully written lead. Jack1956 (talk) 07:10, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

An IP address has added an infobox in twice - with the discussion here listing three disagree votes to one. I'm guessing the IP did not see this talk page section first. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:55, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

I support adding an infobox, there's really no valid reason for there to not be one when basically every other living person has one. It's dumb and pointless. Dyaluk08 (talk) 13:53, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I dont think there is a reason this profile does not have an info box. I support adding one Dancer174 (talk) 13:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Vehemently oppose infobox. Ugly, misleading, repetitive and open to abuse from people wanting to bloat and fill with irrelevant "information". 2A02:C7F:76D6:600:4D11:C6A1:DB40:D5DC (talk) 06:20, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I say! I don't think I'd go that far, but I certainly agree that a box would be little help to the reader of this article, and would be needless clutter. Tim riley talk 09:51, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021

The filmography section needs to be updated. Maddie Ziegler just starred in Eddie Benjamin’s new music video for his song, “Speechless.” Joyasaxena21 (talk) 22:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

After “Together” by Sia, Maddie stars in “Speechless” by Eddie Benjamin in April 2021. Joyasaxena21 (talk) 22:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – NJD-DE (talk) 22:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Done. The video is cited in the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:41, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Friends Reunion Special

it belongs in her intro - because of how big a deal friends is to the tv landscape - she was the sole host - it was a 1 hour event - it was an in person event - it has expanded her fanbase to a whole new demographic - Mario Lopez and Khloé Kardashian, have their x factor hosting in their bios - Brooke Burke has her hosting Dancing with the Stars in her bio - so is custom for important hosting events to be in bios

I strongly disagree. This was just a one-off special and did not even appear on network TV. In addition, you did not cite an adequate reference. You need a published source that reviewed the event and discussed Ziegler's hosting. If the event was so important, it should go in the Friends article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)