Jump to content

Talk:Léon Degrelle

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Former featured article candidateLéon Degrelle is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Good articleLéon Degrelle has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 20, 2021Good article nomineeListed
February 21, 2022WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
April 9, 2022Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Former featured article candidate, current good article

Comment

[edit]

Hi,

I've previously read the french wiki of Degrelle, and I've seen he didn't continue its studies after the two first years and didn't obtain a BA. More, I have nowhere seen that he had a doctorate in law, even if he began a cursus in law.

I think you have to verify this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.189.67.117 (talk) 07:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: In reference to the phrase "...Degrelle was excommunicated, but the excommunication was later lifted, after Degrelle's confession, by the Catholic chaplain of the Walloon Assault Brigade": There are several online refenences to Degrelle's excommunication (see the Catholic Herald Archives for Oct 1 1943 at http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/1st-october-1943/1/degrelle-excommunicated and the Google archive for the Milwaukee Journal newpaer of Nov 12, 1943 at http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19431112&id=y6kWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BiMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3405,4999489) but I have a hard time understanding how a lowly Catholic battalion chaplain can overwrite the actions of a Bishop. - R Fitzgibbon — Preceding unsigned comment added by RFitzgibbon (talk • contribs) 23:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I looked it up, and it seems that the excommunication was lifted later, but not by a chaplain, as RFitzgibbon has correctly pointed out. Changing the article now accordingly. Bazuz (talk) 12:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BazuzHe never got a degree, I added this and gave a source (sadly it is in Dutch)Garnhami (talk) 22:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

[edit]

There are four sources for the Ritterkreuzträger, but none is used by the article. One is enough. Which is more encyclopedic? --H2O(talk) 19:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit

[edit]

Mostly decrufting -- preserving here by providing this link; please see individual edit summaries in the article's history. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:49, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My edits

[edit]

I've removed a chunk of material that appeared to have its origin in a hagiographical piece on the Holocaust-denial website Institute for Historical Review. Such a website can never be used as a reliable source for this article. I've also added some "citation needed" tags, and removed the over-prominent quotation from his "open letter" to the pope. We can say that he wrote such a letter, but there is no need to quote prominently from it. DuncanHill (talk) 15:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Jayjg (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Such a website can never be used as a reliable source for this article." Odd. That's the way many people view Wikipedia. Except maybe students looking to crank out their papers due the next day and hoping their teachers don't check the source.
Were you referring to sources used at the IHR site, or are you talking about their spin in their articles? I can understand not allowing their editorialized content used as a source here, but I do believe they source their articles, and if those are academically acceptable, shouldn't they be used? For example, I just went to their site and they linked to a Times of Israel story. Would the Times of Israel story be acceptable as a source for some encyclopedic entry, or would it not be acceptable since IHR included it?
I had an edit removed once here for an incident involving the FBI. The source was the FBI. I was informed that the FBI isn't a reliable source. Because the editor didn't agree with the content politically.RRskaReb talk 23:12, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to be the general modus operandi. If they don't agree with a web sites editors or statements in an article, it becomes an 'unreliable source' ... Meanwhile all kinds of political parties, their pressure groups as well as academic avtivists become 'reliable sources'... Their statements and conclusions just have to have some special slant. 105.9.109.204 (talk) 14:29, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:38, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to change to British English

[edit]

@K.e.coffman and Buidhe: Because of the historical link and geographic distance between Great Britain and Belgium, and prior experience with Belgium articles, I think we should adopt British English and convert what's there now into that dialect. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 06:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that there's a strong connection to a local version of english here: the article does not currently mention the UK at all. It does already use dmy dates consistently, but I think it should use the established spelling . I use US spelling and dmy dates for most of my articles because that's what I like but have no objection to British spelling either. (t · c) buidhe 06:22, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hitler's statement to Degrelle

[edit]

This ABC news article states: "«Si tuviese un hijo, me gustaría que fuese como usted», le dijo Adolf Hitler a León Degrelle en agosto de 1944, durante la entrega de la Cruz de Caballero con Hojas de Roble –Ritterkreutz–, un distintivo militar único en el III Reich." ABC is very reliable as a news outlet but it doesn't state where this claim comes from or what the support is besides Degrelle's own claim. Can we confirm this? (t · c) buidhe 19:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I myself cannot substantiate this with any *legitimate* sources. Degrelle, however, wrote about it and was quoted about it in this article until two days ago. IIRC Hitler is also supposed to have said pretty much the same thing to Hartmann and Rudel, which hardens my stance even further against even including it. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:44, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]

Now that the article has gone to GAN, I'm checking the licensing of the images.

Vami IV just a heads up in case you missed this, it does have to be solved for the GAN to pass. (t · c) buidhe 08:39, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the ping. If the Charleroi picture isn't kosher, would that mean the San Sebastian picture is also no good? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The San Sebastian one is clearly not public domain as there is a known photographer who died in 2016. But it should be OK as it was released under a free license by a legitimate archive that apparently owns the rights to it. (t · c) buidhe 12:16, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's good. The other cases make me very sad, though. I hate image copyright and I'm not good at source-hunting for these things. I'll scrap them the problem images from the article. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 13:07, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Image check. --K.e.coffman (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: What about this image, from Commons? --K.e.coffman (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

[edit]

Excellent work on this article. It and Rexist Party have been on my hitlist for years without, I am ashamed to say, anything really coming of it. I thought I would add some drive-by comments here, ahead of the GA process:

  • Degrelle's journalistic career could use more work. In particular, his reports for the Catholic press from Mexico were very significant in forming his reputation.
    • Working on that... by which I mean finding reliable sources I can access to read and then write about this. But, once I do find and obtain material for this, I'll definitely write about Degrelle's time with the Cristeros.
  • The "In the Wehrmacht" section reads as slightly confused. Can it be clarified?
  • Battle of the Cherkassy Pocket should be linked, and I'm not sure it can exactly be described as a "victory".
  • More needs to be said, I think, about Degrelle's political activism in the 1930s. He rose to prominence through his polemics (Belgian sources tend to refer to his polemic pamphlet J'accuse M. Segers: j'accuse le ministre Segers d'être un cumulard, un bankster, un pillard d'épargne et un lâche which coined the term bankster) and his attacks on "collusion politico-financière" amid the technocratic "government of bankers" led by Georges Theunis. The current discussion of him as a corporatist only captures half of this.
    • I don't disagree – I do refer to his rhetoric and its hardening of political will against Rex – but my aim in that section was to not get too into the weeds. Deciding the balance of context and the thereafter for this article has been tough, considering how much can said better, or should be said, on Rex's article. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current article claims that Degrelle studied at the University of Namur rather than Leuven (Louvain). This seems very unlikely. What sources are there for this?
    • My source for his studying at Namur is Colignon, who also mentions that by 1934 Degrelle was living in Louvain. Conway says in both of his works that Degrelle studied at Louvain, but maddeningly never gives any dates. My OR thesis atm is that he studied at Louvain while working for Wallez in 1930. If you can point me to sources to set the record straight, I would be grateful. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I do not think this is what Colignon says - I have fixed it. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am not sure why you are discussing this. There were sources that I added before regarding this statement. They seem gone now. But he did study at Louvain after he studied literature in Namur. Several masters thesis's from students at the KU Leuven state this with sources, you have the Biography of Leon Degrelle who also states this. So not sure why this is even up for debate.

More to follow. Thanks! 13:22, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Vami IV:: although I can understand you removed all the books/chapters Degrelle wrote, I do think you need to mention it somewhere. He was a pretty active writer and you should mention this. At least note somewhere he was very active as a propaganda writer or something like this.Garnhami (talk) 13:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Continue?

[edit]
Sure, but I'm afraid I am rather busy IRL at the moment! —Brigade Piron (talk) 07:04, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All good. I'll wait for further input and a more convenient time for you :). –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Léon Degrelle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 13:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I hope to review this one over the weekend. —Kusma (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Progress template and global comments

[edit]
Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

At first glance a well-referenced and very nice article about a not so nice person.

Section by section prose and content review

[edit]

I will make detailed comments on every section here, looking at the lead last (in case any changes in the body necessitate changes in the lead).

  • Early life section: sources/citation for second paragraph?
  • Journalistic career: Several years after his failure when? The following makes it look like it was before 1927, which is not several years after 1925.
  • Degrelle had become interested in the perceived oppression of Mexican Catholics which led to the Cristero War which broke out in 1926. Tense? ...which had led to the 1926 outbreak of the Cristero War?
  • Link for doctorat de troisième cycle doesn't explain what this meant in Belgium in the 1920s.
  • Political activism: into the a political party termed Rex or the Rexist Party apart from the extra word, better to link Rexist Party instead of what you do right now.
  • The section could maybe have a {{main|Rexist Party}}?
  • It would help to be told that the 1936 Belgian election was on 24 May, which explains why things on 3 May are hasty.
  • In Belgium, Degrelle formed alliances with francophone groups, then met Italian fascists and received subsidies from them are these connected?
  • the Nazi Party which had recently come to power in Germany that seems incorrect, the Nazis came to power in 1933.
  • In October, Degrelle returned to Belgium from where? As far as we know, he was in Belgium for the entire paragraph.
  • assistance of Otto Abetz was Abetz assisting Daye in his search or Degrelle in his life in Carcassonne? If you split the sentence you can probably clarify it. What was Abetz ambassador of at the time? You mention later that he became ambassador to France.
    • I've split the sentence, as advised and changed "ambassador" to "diplomat" (that was a goofy mistake; I should have noticed that Colignon nor Conway say he was an "ambassador" until he was made the Nazi ambassador in Paris). –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Political agitation: I find the linking of "had been placed" odd, would suggest to either include "Belgium" in that link or to drop the general military administration link.
  • and convince him "and to convince him", "and tried to convince him" would be clearer.
  • They agreed, though only so as to not alienate Abetz, and signed an agreement this is a bit confusing. What did they agree on before signing the agreement? Did they really agree or just pretend to agree?
  • president of the Belgian Socialist Party The Belgian Socialist Party was founded in 1945
  • Neither Degrelle nor those he met with at this time could come to an agreement shouldn't they come to an agreement with each other?
  • Embrace of collaborationism: By the end of 1940 is last sentence of previous paragraph and first sentence of this one.
  • Undeterred Is this the best word?
  • began subsidizing, appointed members to civil office, and allowed it to freely organize. does this lack a Rex?
  • seek Belgians enlistment "seek Belgians enlisting" or perhaps "seek Belgian enlistment"?
  • The moderates attacked Rex for being weak? That sounded odd. The only explanation I can think of is that this was because they were francophones and couldn't accept cooperation with the Flemish?
  • Likely because it had been ordered to by Berlin?
  • (General comment: there is quite a bit of passive voice with unknown actors.)
  • Walloons were considered an inferior people to the Flemish who did this considering? Possibly better "The Nazis considered Walloons to be inferior to the Flemish" or "Hitler considered" or "Abetz considered" or ...
  • Over the rest of 1942, the Legion was reduced to 150 men, and Degrelle was rapidly promoted Did the others die? Leave? The sentence almost implies that the reduction in numbers caused Degrelle's promotion, is that intended? It is perhaps better to split the sentence, as the promotion is more connected to what comes after.
  • Tense in the last sentence of Waffen-SS is off. Should be had risen/had been/had been or "During the war, ... rose/was/was".
  • Exile in Spain: Was it really the Belgian government who sentenced him to death? And what crime was he found guilty of? (Some context about how collaborators were treated in Belgium after the liberation would probably help the unaware reader here).
    Capital punishment in Belgium tells of more than two hundred collaborators who were executed after 1944, but I have never read anything systematic about the Belgian revenge on collaborators. (I know a little, but only from a comics adaptation of Hergé's biography). —Kusma (talk) 22:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy: the only leading Nazi or collaborator to escape to safety well, that needs some qualification. Until 1960, this honour probably belonged to Adolf Eichmann (but he didn't live openly). Klaus Barbie is also a contender, or Josef Mengele. Unrepentant free Nazis included various Wehrmacht officers like Otto Ernst Remer. Would you consider Wernher von Braun as a leading Nazi? This section could also do with slightly more precise timings than "after the war".
    • minus Removed the highlighted text; I was just reproducing what my sources said. As for precise datings, Conway 1993 is generally allergic to them, especially in the pages cited there (at the very end of the book). Rodríguez 1996 also bemoans a general lack of scholarly interest in Degrelle's post-war years. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publications: While we're here, I'd like to ask whether you have considered talking about Degrelle's book fr:Tintin mon copain and Degrelle's connections to Hergé (seems like Degrelle actually was the first person to send Hergé any American comics, and even claims to have been the inspiration for Tintin). The French article fr:Léon Degrelle does talk about this quite a bit, and our Hergé article mentions this as well.
    • I didn't want to reproduce a list of Degrelle's work so as to avoid promoting fascism. As the section says, he has a long shadow in the far-right. As for Herge and Tintin, none of the sources I could access spoke of Degrelle's claims about inspiring Tintin. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know enough about his works to have a strong opinion on whether they should be listed here. I would suggest to explore the connection to Hergé, though (they certainly both worked in the same ultra-conservative Catholic publishing house, and knew each other). Perhaps we could ask Hergé expert User:Midnightblueowl for some help here? —Kusma (talk) 21:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Links between Hergé and Degrelle are certainly mentioned in biographies of the latter. Perhaps a sentence on Degrelle's relationship with Hergé might be warranted here; although perhaps not more than that. Not a prerequisite for this article becoming a GA, I'd have thought, but something to consider adding. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      It is not a prerequisite, but I think it is worth adding (should this go to FA at some point in the future, I would expect it). —Kusma (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I as well; but again, I think the only source I have access to that mentions the connection is Colignon, and briefly. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In August, Jewish community leaders Max Mazín and Alberto Benasuly introduced the Catalan lawyer Jorge Trías Sagnier to Violeta Friedman, a Romanian-born survivor of Auschwitz and Considering the case, Trías realized which case? There's some context and introduction missing. Why do we need these Jewish community leaders? Did Violeta Friedman sue Degrelle?
  • Further reading: why do you recommend we read this book and why didn't you use it as a source?

I'll leave you with these comments for now and will come back for the lead and perhaps a second pass through. Overall a nice and well-researched article, I've learned quite a bit... —Kusma (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all I have. —Kusma (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kusma: How are we looking? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 16:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV, one prose issue (Himmler and the 100 Belgian civilians) remains, and the images aren't cleared up yet (one nominated for deletion, and the Rexist flag wasn't correctly tagged last time I checked). Other than that we're done I think. —Kusma (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Teodulfo Lagunero

[edit]

According to Muere Teodulfo Lagunero, el “millonario rojo” que trajo a Carrillo de incógnito y con peluca :

Ejerció como abogado defensor del fascias León Degrelle.

Can you provide a better reference to change the article to something like:

which Degrelle's lawyer Teodulfo Lagunero [es]your ref dismissed by stating that Friedman lacked

? --Error (talk) 09:21, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Léon_Degrelle&oldid=1216353630"