Talk:Kingdom of Loathing/Archive 1

I knew this would happen!

I just added the link to Underwood. Now everyone knows how violent this game is and what it drives people to do.128.208.36.39 22:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed this in its entirety. There is a one line mention in this article saying that he played the game, and certainly NOTHING indicating, even remotely intimating, that it had anything to do with his actions. --InShaneee 22:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You can revert all you like. Whether or not you like that writeup, KoL is now and forever irrevocably linked to cannabilism, and someone will put some kind of notice on the KoL entry.128.208.36.39 22:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I'm fairly certain the 6 people that saw that story will forget it pretty quickly. Secondly, if anyone puts it back (barring any objections from established users), I will just revert it again. --InShaneee 23:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think more than six people read the main story on the front page of cnn.com and even more read it elsewhere. Everyone loves cannibalism stories. The consumption of sentient creatures is the plotline of every horror story, most classic cartoons (Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry), and Easter Sunday itself (which is today). How dare you try to deny human interest in that which is most primal? If Jick wasn't such a family man he'd incorporate it into the KoL for sure. Everything about about the news story, except for the little girl's death of course, is a laff-riot. Can you believe what that cop said? And then blame that on KoL? Ha! I will never revert, but my story was great and someone else will either put it back or do it one better. 128.208.36.39 01:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Underwood 128.208.36.39 02:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's irrelevant. If we added everything trivial about everything, we would be flooded with trivia. And while we're at it, let's add this sentence to the trivia section. And how is this game driving people to cannabalism? Your like Jack Thompson-types. And we don't care about stories, we care about being encyclopeadic.

Confusing / Needs cleanup

I am a KoL player, and I have tagged this page as confusing. For someone unfamiliar with KoL, this page does not give an informative introduction to KoL, what it is about, and why it is awesome. The text just leapts to specifics about ascension, white Wednesday, black Sunday and even mentions Hangk's already in the first paragraph of the History section. I think this page needs re-writing to be more useful to the uninitiated, but I think there should be a discussion first. (Raxolotl 21:02, 10 March 2006 ((UTC))

I'd be willing to write a paragraph or two about it, I'll volunteer. Give me some time to write something up. --'Ivan 13:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you know what? There are 3 cases of supposed vandalism by the user Jinkso later in the same day you put your comment here. They are here, here and here. I have restored the content. --'Ivan 13:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Presuming that you made your edit shortly after above noted vandalism, I have removed the "confusing" Wiki tag from the page. Please speak up here if you feel that the page is still confusing. --'Ivan 14:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Radio KoL / WKOL

Update: This time, I did edit the page. Here are my changes: (1) Removed the word "unfounded," because the controversy was centered on specific actions that the involved parties have admitted to doing. (2) The station was handed to me and Fusi from Sev, yes. We had "control" of it for all of 48 hours or so, but gave it to those who had already been running things. (3) "Jick and Skullhead supported this new station," is an inaccurate statement, as there was not yet a new station. There was no fear of a lack of a station for the "future of their project." There was just Radio KoL with an ownership change. Haplo3k 14:14, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

While I did not edit this page and I don't know yet who did, I know the reasoning for the edit: The previous version of the Radio KoL history included a factual error (that the station was "taken over" by administration, when actually SeveredToe handed the station over voluntarily (as he posted in the Radio KoL forums here.)) I was going to do this edit myself, but someone got to it before me (Wikipedia wasn't loading right for me last night.)

I couldn't tell you why (s)he performed the other edits (s)he did, but I can say that truthfully I believe the article is now less gossipy and more informative. --Haplo3k 13:19, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Quick Correction

I'm fairly certain that in November 2004, meat wasn't leaving the economy by 1/5 to 1/10 of the total per day. I went back and checked the forum, it was in fact, 1/5 to 1/10 of a percent. The page has been updated so.

Clans gone

Since this is something people are (apparently) never going to agree upon (even Contr!ckster's fairly well thought-out clan listing was disputed heavily), I've removed all mention of specific clans and their associated prestige.

Economy health

What with the Penguin Mafia all but a memory and the related meatsinks (Council donations, Uncle P's, etc) gone or reduced in scope, should the paragraph that discusses the exploits of Black Sunday be changed to reflect that the economy's in a bit better health now? Or is it still basically under assumption that there's still more work to be done, billionaires aside? CaptainSpam 17:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Radio KoL

I believe Radio Kol is the "official unofficial radio station of KoL". Jick didn't want to be formally affiliated with Radio KoL, for fear of RIAA lawsuits. If such a lawsuit occurred, Asymmetric Publications would be free from any wrongdoing (or so they could argue). Therefore, the article should read that Radio KoL is an unofficial radio station. Metzgermeister 02:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

...is listed for deletion. Some people seem to vote to merge it here, but I believe they should be kept separated. You may express your opinion here. Grue 06:11, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Radio KoL was merged here recently. Just noting it. Hedley 22:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Personalities

That section was just repeats of what is said on the Radio KoL website. We want our information here to be concise, and not to replace our official sites, so I don't think it's necessary. Haplo3k 19:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History of Loathing

I removed the link to the History of Loathing as it appeared on W23's site. All of that has since been rolled into KoL Coldfront, which itself is already listed. I thought it'd be a bit redundant to link in to subsections of Coldfront, so I removed the History link entirely. CaptainSpam 04:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) (forgot to sign it)

Meat helmet

A long time ago, the Meat helmet was deleted, and this article was mentioned in the VfD vote casting field. Should we make a redirect for Kingdom of Loathing out of "Meat helmet"? --SuperDude 02:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

• The article was irrelevant to the article on KoL, and my comment was a joke. I doubt many people would search for a specific KoL item in Wikipedia. Grue 05:35, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Need to break up article

I added a "Gameplay and features" header, orphaning the opening paragraph. (It could probably be turned into an expanded summary.) The resulting new section could also use a lot more breaking up, but I'm not sure what subheads we could use here. --C-squared 20:50, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Logo dude

Doesn't that guy on the logo have a nickname? I think he does. Does anyone know it? If so, we should probably put that with the picture caption.

Tongo Zitheroo Ketchill (Better known as The Phantom Trogdor to all you KoLers.)

He's known as the Sword and Martini Guy, as far as I know. Southwest 02:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC) (better known to all you KoLers as... well, Southwest)

mini-apocalypse

Perhaps something should be added mentioning the accidental deletion of the database by Jick on Oct 25th and its impact on the game. Namely the reversion of several statistics and certain inventory to values backed up on Sept 6. -KSlayer 02:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. This seems to be the second coming of Black Sunday, so to speak, and should definately have at least a nod. Although we might want to wait a bit, just to see the overall ramifications on the economy... -Neovanglist 14:03, 28 October 2005

But this also could be an bigger ploy. Of course, he made it up to us by creating an Crono Trigger-style batch of new content. Creamy!

Crap

Try to keep coments on talk pages, .. not useless. Crap like this can go in your edit summery or just.. not said. Thanks Fresheneesz 06:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Changed Spelling

Specializes, not Specialises.

Aargh! The ghost of English language! In fact you don't have to bring on Talk page every little typo you fixed. You can also mark your edits as minor for such cases, because no significant change was made. Grue 19:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Clan

ffs people, stop editing Warehouse into Whorehouse etc. It's not really constructive.

Anonymous fix

Just quickly, I have made a minor edit giving a little extra information about the effectiveness of the "meatsinks". I think it's needed (as the state of the economy is a major bone of contention in the KoL community), but it could probably use tweaking. -- Anonymous KoL User.

What we really need to do is outline the good points and publicity factors of KoL. Instead of using strange jargon and jokes that would seem ridiculous and pointless to the average user, we should attempt to ease them into the game. Let the jokes make room for themselves. - 6:47 GMT-8:00 18/5/06

Removed the excessive spoiler

As you can see below, the table is quite extensive. I removed it because it is irrelevant to the game itself. The article is info on the game, not a spoiler site. We don't need all the info on every item. I hardly believe that it is anyone's goal to look at this article for the purpose of spoiling oneself.

OMG, this table was ridiculous (and not even funny)! There is KoL wiki somewhere for that kind of stuff.  Grue  17:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok I can see how it was a spoiler. But there were parts that were useful. Can we keep the table without the descirptions and attacks columns? Fresheneesz 19:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not encyclopedic content and not suitable for Wikipedia. Wikibooks probably accept such information (last time I checked...), so you may have better luck adding it there.  Grue  20:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you kidding? An encyclopedia shouldn't contain tables of information? Wikibooks is not for tabulating information, it is for TEACHING. Wikipedia is not for teaching, it is for reference. And a table such as the one I started would be a very good reference. Btw, who the hell would look up this obscure game on wikibooks anyway? 67.161.46.169 01:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

When was the last time you saw an encyclopedia with excessive tables? Never. And your last questions is also like asking "Who the hell would look up this game on Wikipedia?". It's more of a fact that people don't know, but they visit KOL pages anyways. -The Red Baron

Notice you quoted me wrong? try copy and pasting next time. I said "wikiBOOKS" not wikipedia. Obviously I looked up this game on here... And the last time I saw tables on wikipedia was on the article on resistivity, or on ANY article about a TV show (there is usually a table or list of episodes). There are many lists on wikipedia, and most everyone one tries to be a complete list. Excessive implies that it isn't appropriate, and I think that listing what items do, and how much they're worth is useful enough to be on this page. What exactly is the downside of adding non-spoiler information like that? Fresheneesz 02:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Notice how I wasn't quoting you? Serious, read my last statement. They don't know why they visit the link, they just do. The list was a list of excessive, unneeded spoilers. What you're attempting to do is to make a list of everything in KOL. We don't need that. It would be much easier to link to a spoiler site than to make a huge table.- The Red Baron

In anycase, you quoted that IP wrong (that IP was me). If you hadn't noticed, "spoiler" sites are pretty crappy and incomplete. Why do "we don't need that" ? I would find it very useful. Just because you don't need that doesn't mean other people don't. And who the hell are you talking about: "they don't know why they visit the link". What link, and .. who? BTW, I agree the list was excessive, spoilers aren't for the article, i made a mistake on that. But I don't consider item info, stats and effects, to be spoilers. Last comment: easier doesn't mean better. Try to make the easiest speaker driver you can think of - its gonna suck. Fresheneesz 11:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't quoting anyone, I was making a comparison. By your definition, what is a spoiler? We don't need a list off all the items in KOL. We need information on the game itself, and occurences in the game. From what I can see according to your reply, nothing is a spoiler. I would say that www.thekolwiki.net would be a good enough site to mention in the main article, so we don't need a huge clump of tables. Can you please carefully define what the word "spoiler" means to you, because we seem to have a misunderstanding of the word. The Red Baron

Ok, to me a spoiler (of anything) is something that dimishes the entertainment value of whatever entertainment you're spoiling. So, the "descriptions" and "attacks" I originally put on the table *are* spoilers, cause once you read them here, you don't need to read them in the game - and they are entertaining. However, listing practical things like the effects of items, and the power of weapons - even recipies - are not things I consider spoilers. If there is some way in the game to find out (other than trial and error) all the recipies in the game, then mebi a recipies section would be a spoiler. But item effects would be useful information to anyone that is wondering what their particular weird item does or can do.

Secondly, there are many spoilers already on wikipedia - but readers are given proper warning. If you don't want to contribute to this table, don't. But please stop deleting it, it is not vandalism, and is not incorrect information. Please tell me exactly why *you* personally think it doesn't belong on this page. 67.161.46.169 21:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

How is it any different to list what items effect are and such, as compared to attacks, when you are looking at spoilers? It both changes the value of gameplay. As you may have noticed, I have only deleted the spoiler table once.

If the people really want to spoil themselves, they can just go to the bottom of the article to find the links to the information. There is absolutely no point in having any spoilers on this article, because this article's purpose is to inform the people on KOL history, and the KOL community (like the clans), and not the specific material in the game (like the items). - The Red Baron

Spoilng something = decreasing value of gameplay. But I think the table would increase the value of gameplay by more easily allowing people to know what to do with their items. BTW, even if it *was* a spoiler, spoilers are allowed to be on wikipedia regardless of ANYTHING. And there *is* a point of having it in this article, because people might want to know that information. This article's purpose is NOT specific, it is to give general information on KOL.

It is ridiculous to keep this argument up, I don't care if you personally don't need this information, I think its good info. So quit deleting it. YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE TO IT. Fresheneesz 01:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

One more thing, I noticed that in the day or so my edits were left up someone already was interested in adding to the tables. This says to me that people want this info on here. Fresheneesz 01:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by "quit deleting it"? I've only deleted it once. As I've already stated before, we can link to another site, we don't need a huge table of an "irrelevant" topic. The Red Baron

You don't dictate what "we" need. I've created a separate article and linked to it. Fresheneesz 06:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Pretty Minor Thing

• Yeah. So this line: "Several times, jokes are made that [The Naughty Sorceress] is your mother, but whether she is or not is yet to be confirmed."

Not exactly... information. More like a joke that people won't get.

"A winner is you"

It's likely 'An adventurer is you' is a reference to the appearence of 'A winner is you!' in the animutation Irrational Exuberence rather than a direct reference to the game. Is there any quote offering evidence either way? Hrimfaxi 07:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Probably unlikely. The Kingdom of Loathing has a lot of pop-culture references dealing with retro games. There's a text-adventure style mini-quest, ala Colossal Cave Adventure. One of the puzzles in the game requires having knowledge of the Konami Code. There's the eight-bit realm, where you fight monsters remniscient of old NES games. I think it's more likely that the game designers were inspired by the source. Also, the Kingdom of Loathing has been around since at least January of 2003 [1] - I'm relatively certain (but not positive) that the flash cartoon of which you speak was created sometime after that. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 06:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• It's more likely that both KoL and the aforementioned animutation both reference the same thing, namely the engrish phrase in Pro Wrestling (video game). --Flatluigi 01:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Nah, the Irrational Exuberence video has been around since at least December 2001. I remember watching it my freshman year of college. It came out around the same time as the Yatta! video. I'm pretty sure "A winner is you!" was the inspiration. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 22:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• "A winner is you" was undoubtably the inspiration, but the original source for that is the NES game - Irrational Exuberance simply referenced that. I'm pretty sure KoL is referencing the original - the authors of KoL are rather fond of retro games, and the Kingdom is literally filled with references to them. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 00:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Doubling Up Mention of Hardcore

In the ascension paragrapg hardcore is mention twice once in the middle and once at the end with a "also" message. I'll remove the latter one.

Quest guide

Currently a user called Kiathe44 is adding a sort of quest "guide" - without an spoiler warning - to this article. Although I think it's good to describe some of the quests in the article, Wikipedia isn't the place for publishing walkthroughs, so I removed the content. mensch 20:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

Sorry for forgeting to put spoiler warning I remade it with that warning and I put the main source in that section in addition to the list at the end. BTW this is my new poster, sorry for the confusion i'm new and mabye i miss understood but I didn't see anything agaisn't guides on the what is not Wiki page. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok it got deleted again by someone else so i'm gunna assume I'm wrong I'll make sure not to make another guide again.

--ScottGarverick 01:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Takeover

the front page of KoL has been taken over, Does anyone know how to fix this? 24.237.198.91 01:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't taken over, it's just an April Fools joke... There are some other nice things going on today, too, like SPF and the item of the month. Sasha Slutsker 02:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I've seen similer things happen on other websites that were taken over 24.237.198.91 07:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Radio Kol

Guys there is a Aol kids station called Radio Kol. Look it up and put a mention in your article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rvsrvs (talk • contribs)

Is it really that important? --'Ivan 12:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so, especially since one is a broadcast station, and the other a podcast. Unless Radio Kol gets its own article, this shouldn't be an issue. --InShaneee 18:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The artwork

"The origin of these characters, whether drawn by hand or taken from some computer program, is unknown." If this is referring to the artwork, it's hand-drawn by Jick, and then scanned and edited as necessary in Paintshop Pro.
Not sure how to best integrate this info into the article, but if someone wants to do so, feel free. --Akranzel 20:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Any chance you've got a reference link for that? --InShaneee 03:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Jick has said this himself on the radio, many times. One of Zalan's transcripts may have proof.--DestroyerBEACON 17:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Archiving the Talk page- yay or nay?

It's getting rather long. --'Ivan 11:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say so. Things have gotten a little messy here, but I'd say it's probably safe to archive any threads with no posts in 2006. --InShaneee 16:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't really have enough experience to-- in other words I don't know how. Someone else? ^_^;; --'Ivan 17:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Moxie?

Shouldn't Moxie in the 1 Gameplay and features section, on 1.3 Attributes be (Roughly equivalent to Dexterity, Agility, Speed, or Charisma.) I don't want to change it.

Notable players

Surfing wiki for so long, this is the first time I ever seen a column such as 'Notable players' for any game in the style presented here. If they want to know about these players, reading an article on the wiki is not the place to do it. Heck, even seperate wiki entries if you're so determined to do it. Does anyone even CARE who Boozerbear is, when they just want to know what is Kingdom of Loathing? A final arguement : with a column like this, the spammers will have a field day. --Cpryd001 16:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This is not something that has been deemed acceptable in previous, similar situations. --InShaneee 17:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

KoL is considerably more social-oriented and many players have become near-celebrities with the game's community, which could raise question and interest with newer players who heard a name dropped in chat. I personally think it should stay. As for spammers, there's always the risk of them polluting an article, I don't think a column such as this would effect it much. If all else fails, it could always be locked.--68.60.18.222 03:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"with the game's community," - that's the key right there. It's only interest is withing the game's already existing community... and that's not really the audience of a wikipedia article. KOLColdFront is a much better place for a list of notable players. ---J.S (t|c) 05:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Leeroy Jenkins is a celebrity in the WoW world AND is mentioned in Wikipedia...

These are MMOs so I consider Google to be a reliable indicator of notability. Boozerbear: 4540 results, Leeroy Jenkins: 170,000 -- not to mention the fact Leeroy has been added (as tributes e.t.c) to many very notable games and television shows.

Mainly because WoW is more well-known as a MMO then KoL is. I think it should stay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.146.241.90 (talk • contribs).

Notability (atleast in this case) is not relative. I think it should be removed. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 13:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Lounge chat channel?

Should the lounge channel be mentioned in the article? It could just say "Unclear" or "Unknown" under "Purpose" and "Who can access". Mo-Al 00:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm against that. There's just so little verifiable information we'd be doing a disservice to the article to even try. --InShaneee 02:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Mo-Al 02:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't be silly. /lounge hasn't been a great secret in almost two years now. --Cairnarvon 21:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it hasn't been verified. Mo-Al 22:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. There's just no need for something that there's no verifiable info about. --InShaneee 00:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

But you CAN verify that the lounge channel exists. If someone's actually in the channel (not just listening to it), then /whois will tell you "This player is currently online in channel lounge". (I just verified that myself using a multi.) And it's safe to say that it's available to people who've been granted access by an admin. You can't access any chat channel in the game without being granted access by an admin -- if not directly through admin intervention, then at least indirectly via game code that was written by an admin... -- CWesling 01:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I believe you, but just because you have discovered it doesn't mean that it's suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia (you know, no original research and all that). If you can find a source that backs you up, cite it and put it it. Mo-Al 02:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What kind of a feeble excuse is that? You can't find a "source" that backs up anything in this article; the only real source is the game itself (unless somebody's written a scientific paper about KoL that I haven't heard about), and I don't see you erasing the article because of that. I just told you how you or anybody else (with a KoL account, or access to a friend's) can verify this. That's as close to "verifiable" as anything in this article gets.

If it'll help any, I can give you the names of some players who are online in lounge right now for you to verify, since you're logged on here currently. Try a /whois on Cthules, Lilith, or Old Ned. -- CWesling 02:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The channel's existence was denied in its first few months, but nowadays it's commonly acknowledged, both by the people who have access and the admins themselves. --Cairnarvon 02:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Then get a source, and cite it in the article. It doesn't matter whether you or I know it. Mo-Al 02:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's a source: [2]. I forgot about the KoL Wiki. Happy now? -- CWesling 02:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was just too lazy to look it up on my own. Mo-Al 02:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the chat channel table has been removed, so it's a moot point now. Mo-Al 20:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

HC Ronin?

I've removed the part that says that a HC player that frees the King in under 600 turns is still subject to Ronin, as I haven't heard of it. If we can find a reference somewhere, feel free to add it back in. Quentin mcalmott 17:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Even if it's true, it's not worth mentioning. This isn't a strategy guide, and already contains too much detail on the game mechanics. --InShaneee 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is true-- I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but it's a commonly-known fact on the KoL Forums. There's an invisible Ronin counter in Hardcore. It, for some bizarre reason, remains even after you free the King. I'm not sure why it stays after you free the King, but the logistics of having a Ronin counter in Hardcore are fairly simple to understand-- if such a thing didn't exist, one could ascend Hardcore and immediately drop it, turning their run into a normal run without a Ronin phase.

But I digress. My point is, it is true, but I can't find a source right now. Maybe later. Besides, InShaneee's point is a good one-- it's not worth mentioning. --Southwest 16:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"softcore" vs. "normal"

I've taken the liberty of changing all mentions of "softcore ascension" into "normal ascension." That's the official term seen at the Ascension FAQ. [3] Quentin mcalmott 17:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

KoL Trance

I saw KoL Trance in the Community section, so i added the link to the Community links.

Logo

I think it would be better if the logo image was of the left sword guy. That's the one they use on shirt designs and Jick's avatar, etc. --80.195.190.235

Does it...really...matter? --'Ivan 03:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. --80.195.190.235 22:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

if you think it doesn't matter, the change doesn't affect you. If you think the change matters, go ahead and change it; no one's against it (that has spoke up, and honestly, I don't think it's very contentious). Quentin mcalmott 23:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Gika 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

...It's been changed back. Does anyone know why? --80.195.190.235 15:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Penguin Mafia

I see that the Penguin Mafia has been left out of the History section and I think it would be nice if it was added.

Unsigned comment by IP 68.184.207.173 16:29, August 9, 2006. (added by Jazzdude00021)

That would be nice... I'm too lazy to see if someone else has already done it.  :)

Frodo 11011 08:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Gameplay screenshots?

Would anyone have any objection to me taking a few gameplay screenshots and including them in the page? I don't think it could hurt anything, and would help to give readers a flavor of the game. --Southwest 16:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

One might be alright, but that's the most usually used on game articles. I'd recommend a shot of combat. --InShaneee 16:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of adding any more than a couple. --Southwest 03:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to go about this, but a while ago, I took a screenshot of KoL. If you want it, it's here. http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4407/kolscreenshotvc7.png

You can use that however you want. --80.195.190.235 08:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the above screenshot to the article. Southwest, if you have a better one, feel free to go for it. Cornprone 00:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks fantastic! --InShaneee 14:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree-- it looks great! I don't see any way a screenshot I took could be better-- any I took right now wouldn't be as indicative of normal gameplay, as I'm currently running a level-19 character. Nice job, Cornprone and the anonymous screenshotter! --Southwest 03:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

An updated screenshot should be placed, since this one is pretty old.Nanajoth 14:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanajoth (talk • contribs).

I replaced the screenshot with a new version depicting more recent game content and interface updates. Enjoy.--Cornprone (talk) 01:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I've been adding references as I work on the History section. However, the best sources of information I can find on these topics are the articles the KOL wiki ( http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/ ). Are these OK as source references? And anyone know of better ones? Cornprone 05:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bloat.

Put simply... the article is beginning to feel bloated. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What course of action would you suggest? Cornprone 12:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Trimming of sections. Some sections probably don't merit their own little section and could just a be a single sentence as part of another section. the comet for example was merely a method of introducing a new raffle feature.

The Radio KoL section also is rather large, dwarfing all other sub-sections and ... and things such as those. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the comet section because I believe it was a significant-enough event to warrant mention. Also, I divided the History section into subsections because I thought it made it easier to read. I was however considering combining the "classes" and "attributes" sections into a single "characters" section and shortening the individual descriptions of each class and attribute. Also I agree the Radio section could be shorter. --Cornprone 12:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Another thought: I'm loathe to just remove a lot of information in the "Radio" section, but much of it is only tangentially related to the game itself. Maybe it's more prudent to split "Radio KOL" into a separate article. --Cornprone 12:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the classes and attributes idea. IIRC, Radio KoL once did have its own article, which got merged back here. Really, I think it's prudent to cut that whole section down to a one or two sentence mention, and merge it with another section. --InShaneee 13:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I just shortened the attributes and classes sections. I took out the quoted descriptions about each class that came from the official KOL site and made things more concise. (also made some information more accurate). Thoughts? --Cornprone 00:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

We should really just be forwarding people to the KoLwiki at coldfront for more info. No general encylopedia should include this much minutae about one game. 155.212.44.58 19:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"Forwarding to the KolWiki" is not an option. As for how much detail should be gone into, I'm sure we can find a GA or FA class game article to use as reference. --InShaneee 20:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if you look at Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Sport_and_games, it seems to me that this article--in terms of how much detail it presents--is pretty much in line with accepted community standards. I will still try to edit some stuff for conciseness and shorten the Radio section, though. --Cornprone 22:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the History and Radio sections should still be condensed a fair bit. They're still pretty large. When I get a chance I'll try to trim it a bit, but that might not be for a while. -- CWesling 08:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

KoL Chess

I've added a sentence or two about KoL Chess, and Hoddan's online version. If someone knows some background information on the chess game (who created the new ruleset, when, etc.) please add it. The section isn't complete as I left it, and I'd like it more robust. Also, if you can think of a better word than personas, (I was thinking in terms of the Legends), please, swap it out.

I've removed the reference. It is a non-notable fangame. --InShaneee 21:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry then

KoL chess? Sounds cool. I wish I had seen the info. Frodo 11011 08:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Seal Clubber redirect

We really dont need this, it would have to include all other classes to have a significance. --Nanajoth 15:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually not required for the other five classes. I don't see how often Turtle Tamer, Pastamancer, Sauceror, Disco Bandit, or Accordion Thief appear in popular culture; Seal Clubber, however, does have a tenuous hold on the language. Not quite sure it should be an automatic redirect to THIS article, tho--someone putting in a request for seal clubbers could be looking for the actual hunting, rather than the character class. Perhaps the redirect should go to hunting, and a note in that article should read along the lines 'For the Kingdom of Loathing character class, see ... ' IL-Kuma 06:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we really want a Seal Clubber redirect to be mentioned in the first line of this article? It seems like it's not really helpful, as it's not one of the most important things to read about as the first line. Quentin mcalmott 04:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How else are we to explain other uses of "seal clubber"? There's no real other place to put it. --Crazysunshine 11:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. It's standard practice to put 'otheruses' templates at the top of articles. --InShaneee 22:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, I guess it's ok then. It just seems odd to me to have that up on the top of the article for people who don't come here through a "seal clubber" link. Quentin mcalmott 02:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Crimboween

Is it justifiable to have information on Crimboween or even just Crimbo in general? Or would that not even be funny? There is information on the Comet, but I guess that would impact (pun not intended until just now) everybody who plays, having altered mechanics relying on moon phases. Vitriol 20:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It really seems outside of the scope of an encyclopedia. ---J.S ^(T/C) 21:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This is just one event. --InShaneee 22:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Crimbo should be included, since it is the biggest in-game holiday and most anticipated. Nanajoth 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanajoth (talk • contribs).

plexiglass

The word "plexiglass" in the context of the article should be in quotes, and it should not be linked. It's being used in an specific in-universe context that has nothing to do with the real world. Since it's an unusual usage for the word "plexiglass" it is appropriate to use quotes to distinguish it. ---J.S ^(T/C) 23:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The items are called plexiglass in-game. Should we also call the items "bow"legged pants, "cardboard" wakizashi, or cheshire "bitten", if they were in this article? I also don't see how it's being used in a context that has nothing to do with the real world, just making it into clothing. Quentin mcalmott 01:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Upon further research, it seems that "plexiglass" is indeed a widely-used word in the real world and as such does not need quotes around it. --Cornprone 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

On even more research, Wikipedia redirects "plexiglass" to the page it is now linked to. Try it yourself. If it is a word to Wikipedia, then it is a word to me. Even so, plexiglass, the same type used in-game, is the same type used in the real world. Imagine that! It is not being used in an unusual way, so it doesn't need quotes. So, context and usage both sway in favor of linking and no quotes. SnufStyle420 20:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what is in the game or not. You cannot use the word (or non-word) "plexiglass". It has no meaning and it is illegal. It is a trademark violation and against wikipedia copyright policy.Tstrobaugh 15:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

As to comments above, that "plexiglass" is a word because it has a redirect in wikepedia, it has a redirect precisely because it is not a word and it is assumed to be a mistaken entry on the users part. Another one, that it is used in the game also doesn't matter, unless there is a section explaining why the game uses it incorrectly and illegally. I worked for Rohm and Hass in trademark protection. Also, metaphysically, there are not "real worlds" and I suppose "unreal worlds" there is only one world.Tstrobaugh 15:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I, for one, question whether you should be making such controversial changes without consensus (and especially marking them minor) when you are so close to the subject (the company Rohm and Haas makes plexiglas). And yes, there are two separate "worlds", even if you argue over the semantics of calling them such. In the world of the game, that's what the items are called. No matter if "plexiglass" is a word or not in the non-KoL world, it is in KoL, in the same way that "Klingon" was not a word (to my knowledge) until Star Trek made it so. I've listed this at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems. Quentin mcalmott 06:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The game uses the term "plexiglass". The game does not use the term "acrylic glass". The article is using the item an an example of something in the game. Calling it acrylic glass would be blatantly incorrect and misleading. The game item has nothing to do with the real world "acrylic glass." If you have a concern with trademark infringement, I sugust you contact the people at KOL. However, wikipedia is only reporting on the game's usage of the term. ---J.S ^(T/C) 23:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hovering Sombrero

"Hovering Sombrero" is a They Might Be Giants song - anybody know whether KoL got the name from TMBG, or vice versa? Is this worthy of note in this article? Applejuicefool 20:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion be - Check KoLwiki. it notes all the references.  :)

I would do that, but my stupid work internet filter won't let me go to sites that reference games in any way (in theory - some slip through, like Wikipedia articles, for instance!) Probably a good idea - else I'd probably never get any work done! lol Applejuicefool 16:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely a reference to TMBG, like many other things in the game. Probably not worth mentioning here though. Cornprone 12:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

KoLmafia

I was wondering about this: is it malware of any kind? Keylogger, trojan, etc? —My name is too long 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Welll... A lot of people use it, and trust it. In case ye don't know, it's an automatic thing that plays KoL for ye. I've never actually tried it though. Frodo 11011 07:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not any form of malware. There's so many users that it would HAVE to have been noticed. Plus, KoLMafia is open source, anyone with the proper knowledge can check the code and see there's nothing funky in it. If there were, it would've been reported a long time ago.

Coldfront In Chat

I added to the Community page near the bottom saying how it was also forbidden to say something about Coldfront or anyother spolier site outside of KoL. Should it stay there or does the saying about being forbidden simply cover it? GloomySunday 01:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"It is forbidden to publicly give away spoilers in chat, and it is also forbidden to say anything about Coldfront, or any other spoiler site outside of KoL." I don't think it's entirely forbidden to say anything about spoiler sites. The extent to which this is allowed in chat depends a great deal on which chat channel you're in. I'd agree that this is true for /newbie chat, but certainly not for /hardcore. I don't know how I could prove this without screenshots of chat (which would likely not go over well here), but I also don't see any reference to back up the idea that mentioning Coldfront or any other sites is entirely forbidden. The policies of Loathing state that you cannot post "spoilers for in-game quests and puzzles" in chat, but they don't say anything about posting links in chat, provided that those links aren't violating the policies in some other way. Brokenchairs 02:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, in /newbie, I think the rules are that ye just have to label it as a spoiler, and ye won't get banned. Hope this helps!  :) Frodo 11011 10:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Scammer Era

This section has been removed twice now (I did it the first time, someone else did it the second time). I still think this isn't that notable, but given that at least one other person feels differently, what do others think? Here's what I removed.

"The Scammer Era"

In the year 2005, there were many scammers that stole meat from other characters. The greatedt of these scammers was "WheresWaldo," who scammed 34 million meat from unsuspecting users. He did it in a simple method, having Hell Ramen in his store at the mall and showing it at a very low price, and when people would see that price they would quickly try and buy it, and find that the price had been switched to over 1 million meat. Jick tried making it difficult for these scams but they persisted. Finally, WheresWaldo bought a golden Mr. Accessory and decided to quit. The citizens were troubled and angered over his reign of terror.

I removed it once. Price switching is a very common scammer tactic. Also, 34 million meat isn't actually that much. Searching the KoL wiki for "whereswaldo" shows only two results, neither of which relate to this scammer. Searching for "waldo scam" (by searching for "all terms", not "any or use query as entered") brings up no results. Scamming is a constant part of KoL, and I don't think 2005 was that much worse to be named as a particular era. Quentin mcalmott 01:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, I forgot to sign the original posting...that was me. :P WLGades 01:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I just removed it again, fwiw. It was added by User:Fortyniners9999 with a comment of "very important." Quentin mcalmott 06:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

To much info on food and booze?

I found this:

Users get 40 "adventures" per day. The number of adventures can be increased by consuming food and booze, but only until the player becomes too full or drunk to consume more.

(the previous entry)

A bit more encyclopedic than this:

Users get 40 "adventures" per day. The number of adventures can be increased by a few ways. Consuming food and booze will give the player between 1 and 29 additional adventures, depending on the type, until the player becomes too full or drunk to consume more. The skills "Stomach of Steel" and "Liver of Steel" allow the player to consume more food and booze before being too full or drunk. Various campground and clan items also give extra adventures.

(the current entry)

I'd undo it, but I'm a newb to Wikipedia, so I wanted to ask you Wikipedians, first.--Munkel (talk) 12:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's too much now too. The old way was a nice overview; the new edit goes into too many details. Quentin mcalmott 21:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I would definitely agree. Id the Mildly Confused 03:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. I kept a small mention of the campground items as well, but it's much less cumbersome than before.--Munkel (talk) 05:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed that entire part of that paragraph, as it was completely redundant with the description of adventures, food and booze that exists in the "Gameplay and Features" section. --Cornprone 03:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"Trading" section

So there's a section about trading that is mainly about how to trade gift items and how to use trustbot? Really? I think this section should be greatly shortened and rolled into the "player interaction" section. My only worry though is that the player interaction section is itself getting too large. Thoughts? --Cornprone 03:41, 13 April 2007

Future History category?

I added a category on future history, as i think it will become an important part of Kol's history. It will probably be edited as alot of it is still under wraps --Mrjingjing

I've removed it, wikipedia is not the place for unverifiable speculation (see Wikipedia is not a crystal ball). Although details of NS13 should be included when the changes have been made, there is currently no verifiable information as to when they will occur, and what will be changed. 'Future History' is an oxymoron anyway! Tdrawler 12:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it could be added back in a different way. Maybe 'Future plans' would be a better heading. As for sources, start with this kol wiki page and this forum page. To quote the first paragraph of the kol wiki:

NS13 is the current name for the planned major update to Kingdom of Loathing. It is the first step towards NS15, Jick's ultimate goal. NS13 will introduce completely new quests for levels eleven and twelve which will push the Naughty Sorceress Quest to level thirteen. In addition to the new quests and making ascensions longer it will introduce many new items.

Something to this effect could be included. -- hibou 08:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ill just edit it when it comes out then :) mrjingjing

Actually, on a further note, couldnt it be included as a current event, as it is currently under construction?mrjingjing

As far as I know, it's currently in testing, and they might release it on Ascension's anniversary, June 9th. That being said, we've been expecting NS13 since LAST June, so I'd say it's not worth putting in quite yet.

There's now an announcement on the login page for KoL with a counter until NS13. 30 days to go, with details about the upcoming changes available: http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/static.php?id=ns13 And yeah, that's real info, not their April fools stunt. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to include something brief about the stasis combat strategy in the history section, when stasis is finally gone (since the strategy is being destroyed with NS13). Stasis has long been an extremely controversial combat strategy, and I think many would see it as an important part of the history. However, it might not be appropriate for wikipedia, and it might be difficult to find sufficient references. There is a lot of info about stasis on KoL-related websites and forums other than the official forums, and there are some videos out there of stasis being used in combat. (and yes, I'm talking about sphere stasis, NOT NPZR-stasis). Brokenchairs 06:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

St. Sneaky Pete's Day

What about today. Its St. Sneaky Pete's Day. Something to add to the holiday section.Tailsfan2 12:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Community ... unless

Perhaps it might be worth mentioning that liking RuneScape is apparently a bannable offense. A friend of mine simple MENTIONED (note: did not advertise or provide links or anything, just mentioned) that she liked the game and she was banned after being mocked by mods.

If there is a lapse in community, especially a bigotry that could ruin KoL for a player, perhaps it should be mentioned.67.141.136.174 04:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but your personal grudges won't be mentioned. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 13:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how an experience that was not mine is therefore personal. I'm sorry you don't care about keeping future players from being driven off. Sorry I'm not elitist.71.29.21.220 19:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this: Personal experiences in general. I couldn't give a rats-ass about past/current/future players - my concern here is that this article maintains the standards that all articles are expected to uphold. See WP:V and WP:ATT for the guideing policies in this case. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

All uncited comments in Community can be removed AFAIC. I would love to see more players join KoL as much as the next person, so maybe a description here that doesn't make KoL players sound like a bunch of pedantic wusses? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.217.217 (talk) 12:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

KoL, an AOL trademark?

Is there any need to mention that KoL is a trademark of AOL for their Kids on Line service and they have asked Asymmetric to review their usage of KoL it? How about how it affects KoL Radio? Waveclaw 01:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

(I moved this to the bottom of the talk page) I can't find any information, barring an old KoL forum thread about this, so unless we can find a source, and then deem it necessary, we can't put it in the article. Quentin mcalmott 22:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, If there was any news stories about it then sure... otherwise no need. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you consider recent radio shows a source? I think on the May 3rd one or somewhere in there they talked about it. But anyway, it's still pretty foggy, they don't even know if Kingdom of Loathing used KoL before AOL trademarked it, so at this point I don't think it's worth mentioning.

KOL radio - no... but like an ABCradio-News report then yeah... ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Death Gate Cycle References

This may be a shot in the dark, but in playing the game for just one day, I noticed two things that made me think of the book series Death Gate Cycle. First, the Genre of Radio KoL 64 is "Haplo's Ultimate Music Party". Haplo is the name of the main character in the DGC. Also, you can enhance your character by getting him tattoos, which is (in a way) a main part of the story in DGC. If anyone else has read DGC and played KoL for a while, could you verify anymore similarities. Hypernova2121 03:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Haplo is a notable player, and a DJ, so her name may be a reference to this Death Gate Cycle, but I know for a fact that the tattoos are not.--Therum 00:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The game has references all over the place to random stuff from pop culture, check out The KoL Wiki. The particular tattoo you choose to display doesn't enhance or detract from your character though, it merely shows you had the entirety of one outfit for long enough to talk to the artist, or, in the case of the martini tattoo, had a lot of martinis. --Sothicus 06:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

NS13?

Is anyone going to mention the soon to be updated site, including the new monsters, level requirements, etc??? 121.221.168.28 08:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The data given by the development team isn't specific enough to be added. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It also sounds like something for coldfront more then here. We can only give a general overview of the game within the context of how it touches the real world. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 17:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that plenty more is known, there can be additions. The Casual Ascension type was added, so I added the Bad Moon Ascension type. I had never made or edited an article before, so I didn't know what to cite, what to link, etc. Doctor it up, change it, do whatever you want, except removing it, because it does belong here if Casual does. 67.87.96.31 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Pink Thursday

Is it worth adding a section about Pink Thursday? (I think that is what it is called) It is another event in the kingdom

Mrjingjing 12:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Compared to Black Sunday or White Wednesday, it hasn't really had an effect on the game. It's really interesting to read about, but it's more a subject for a site about KoL's history, like something on coldfront. Quentin mcalmott 23:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bad Moon mentioned repeatedly

Is it really necessary to mention in anything more than a passing note that Bad Moon is a zodiac sign, especially when it's mentioned in much more detail less than half a page up? --Sothicus 06:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This is true, but not just a passing note. It needs shortening, but still needs some information. Do what you can, if you wish. 67.87.96.67 19:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Done and done. --Sothicus 08:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Overzealous with "Citation Needed"

isn't needed when any person who is knowledgeable of the subject would not disagree or doubt it, and any other person can't find a reason to disbelieve it. For example, most experienced players know that "Player versus player (PvP) combat is voluntary, and only those who have broken their "Magical Mystical Hippy Stone" can attack or be attacked by other players." Those that don't have no reason to doubt it.

I've removed many of the tags and added a few of my own. --68.161.152.145 05:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I went a little overboard trying to replace the refimprove tag because a persistent vandal kept removing it. Thanks for the oversight :) --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 08:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

History Trim

Since neither User:Hq3473 or Ghost have brought it up on the talk page... I will. So... trim the history section? Remove it altogether? It is sort useless and crufty. Who knows... discuss! --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 03:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, if we start removing everything that isn't verifiable by what Wikipedia considers a "reliable source", there won't be much left besides a few snippets that were mentioned in various gaming magazine articles or interviews. (Since they don't consider other wikis to be reliable sources.)

That said, I agree that most of the History section is unnecessary -- it's only meaningful to actual players, anyway. Why don't we move all the in-game events to the KoL wiki (that aren't already there, anyway) and just leave the paragraph that says when it was released to the public? Assuming we can find a third-party reference to that date... -- CWesling 08:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Tuesday Updates

Jick said he suspended the Tuesday updates on his radio show on Nov 26, 2007. Could someone fill in the citation with a link to the recording?Oobyduby 16:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Trying to FA

I'm trying to bring this article to FA status, any suggestions? Cerebellum (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias to the point of vandalism

There's something fishy going on here. Has anyone looked at the "Mr. Accesory Conspiracy" section? It says (using exclamation marks a plenty) that the creater of the game is "lazy" and that you should not buy these items. Also, there are many other parts of the article that are horribly biased, one of which actually uses the word "crappy." I would fix it myself, but I am short on time and not very good at editing. --The F50 Man (talk) 03:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Just run of the mill vandalism recently added. As for the rest of the article that's another matter. --24.19.53.36 (talk) 03:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Jick and Mr. Skullhead

My recent edit made me wonder, why do they not have articles? They are the co-creators of an MMORPG that hundreds of thousands of people play, or have played. Surely that is notable, in and of itself. Both of them have been interviewed several times, and they do things other than this, since they are members of Asymetric Publications, which already has its own article. What are your thoughts on this? Mynameisnotpj (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if you can dig up multiple references to reputable secondary sources, they would qualify as "notable". It's likely though that people would want to merge any such info into this article or the Asymmetric one instead of separate articles. --Cornprone (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Only notable for the game, and not as individuals themselves. --68.161.182.144 (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Hobopolis

New (giant) update in KoL includes a massive clan dungeon. There is limited player-to-player contact, which makes this the first time you can play "with" someone else. This should probably be noted, as this makes KoL multiplayer. 204.26.127.65 (talk) 04:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

AVG 8.0 SiteScan

To this artice's link on google, AVG sitescan idicates a risky link in the page.

Risky: This page contains the potential for active threat delivery.

Risk Category: Cracks site (link on page)

Risk Name: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/pb/117648256288713.htm

(5.08 seconds to scan this page)

Ratings are provided by AVG. Site owners please contact AVG Technologies for questions.

What should be done to remove this incorrect alert

Lol

Ur kiddin me right? --72.138.216.89 (talk) 22:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Please explain, or your post may be removed. NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 00:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

This cant be a real game..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.216.89 (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It's real. www.kingdomofloathing.com. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Too much information

I believe that this article has (quite) a bit too much information about gameplay. Compare with articles about other internet games, and you'll find that this article is too long. For example, do we need to include everything about the major events? CHL (aka yse) (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. I'd say cut the Comet, Holiday Events, Hobopolis, and maybe the Grey Plague, as they delve too much into the game. The rest seem significant enough. Ask Jick what he thinks the most significant history events are? NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 02:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that Black Sunday, White wednesday, Comet, Holiday Events and the Grey Plague, they're interesting but I don't think that they should be explained here as there not really that important in the long run. Hobopolis, NS13 and Ascension should all be left though as they all had a major and LASTING effect on the game, the others didn't really. --Danie Tei (talk) 14:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Black Sunday and White Wednesday had a lasting effect on the game for several months at the very least. Those should be included. I'm going to cut a few; see what you think.the Comet. What else would you cut? NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 19:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I cut the gray plague, but I do think the rollout of clan dungeons deserves at least a mention in the history. I still think white wednesday needs to be cut as while it was important when it happened only one of the rifts remain so I dont think it had enough of a lasting effect. I think Black Sunday should be at least cut down and some of it moved to gameplay as both the raffle house and frequent meatsinks are used, but Black Sunday wasn't an offical event so I don't think it should be mentioned Danie Tei (talk) 03:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me start out by saying I'm an inclusionist. Ask yourself this: were the sections you cut out really making the article too long or confusing? I feel they provided an interesting insight into the nature of the game. Oh, and White Wednesday was clearly one of the most significant events in the history of the game, even if it wasn't purposefully-created content. Its historical importance is that Asymmetric's response to the incident reveals a lot about the way the company runs the game. The same could be said of Black Sunday's importance. --Cornprone (talk) 09:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I guess I was being a bit extreme with all of the cuts. I still think that the grey plague should be cut as it didn't wasn't anything but a bit of episodic content and therefore wasn't that important. You have convinced about Black sunday and White Wednesday though, because they were content releases to fix specific in-game issues they actually are important to the development of the game, so I agree they should stay.Danie Tei (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The Plague certainly doesn't harm anything by staying. And it was certainly a bit of episodic content that was a wide-ranging event that spanned for a month or so. And if I'm not wrong, it was indeed related to The Great Time Catastrophe? NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 03:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, the review that was just added [4] mentions the Grey Plague and then links to this very article's History section, saying that it's "a great way to explain the unusual way that Kingdom of Loathing fits the MMO concept without fitting the template at all." So I guess like me, the author of that review found that section informative. Just sayin'. Oh, and that review was a nice find. I hadn't seen it before. --Cornprone (talk) 15:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as the general consensus seems to be that the grey plague should stay I added it back into the article. Danie Tei (talk) 23:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok on to a next set of things that need to be cut. I think that the game gets to specific with a lot of its descriptions for example does mentioning "Epic hats", the materials Ascension rewards are made of, the names of obscure PVP challenges and Mr.Eh? actually qualify as important. Secondly all this needs to be verifiable and I'm not sure that a wiki counts a reliable reference. I'll leave this to others to decide I think I'm a bit eager to cut. Danie Tei (talk) 14:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I like the examples of PvP because they really help explain the unusual nature of the PvP system. Ascension reward materials and epic hats can go, though. I guess Mr. Eh is also too trivial, though it does demonstrate the nature of the game's humor. Now as to verifiability and citations... I understand the need for reliable sources on contentious information. However, there's little dispute over the basic facts of game mechanics. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence states the importance of inline citations on "quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged." To me, this implies that citations are not as important for obvious information whose factuality is not going to be challenged. If you look at Wikipedia:Good articles about other video games, they often use the game itself, the game manual or an official strategy guide as a citation for basic information on gameplay. Apparently, primary sources suffice for describing gameplay, even in good articles. I liken this to the way primary sources are used for the basic plot description in an article about a novel. Well, that's my opinion; your mileage may vary. --Cornprone (talk) 10:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say keep the Mr Eh? but touch on it more than go into a full on description of everything about it. Just mention that it exists and maybe the phrase it gives on a persons profile page. Call me ishmail (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll defer to your knowledge on sources so we probably don't need to worry to much about adding sources. I think we might be able to take down the primrary sources tag. But I still think that the whole article contains way more trivial information than necessary. Looking at FA-Class video game articles the length of gameplay descriptions in those articles is less than half of the length of the one in this article.Danie Tei (talk) 22:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Touch upon the Mr. Eh, cut the rest. Other VG FAs, unfortunately, generally have a lot more coverage that KoL does; I don't think we could ever get this to a FA status. NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 22:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this will probably never get to FA I was just trying to make a point.Danie Tei (talk) 00:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Reviews

Here are all the reviews about KoL I've managed to find, If anyone could tell me which can be used as reliable sources:

• http://www.sniderware.com/blog/2004/10/kingdom-of-loathing-review.html
• http://www.escmag.com/v5/reviews/review.cfm?rv=415
• http://www.pibweb.com/review/kol.html
• http://dbs.homeport.org/archives/000238.html
• http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_161/5112-Stumbling-Into-the-Kingdom-of-Loathing
• http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1362
• http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=132293

If anyone finds any other reviews please add links, we need to get a reception section.
--Danie Tei (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Enough sources?

Does anyone else think that there are enough third-party sources to take down the primrary sources tag? Danie Tei (talk) 13:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say so. I mean there could always be more but as far as the distribution goes, it looks like plenty in all the sections. Call me ishmail (talk) 14:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Template:Primarysources says it's to be used on an article or section which "inappropriately relies solely on primary sources." The article has multiple third party sources, so it clearly doesn't rely solely on primary sources. The tag should be removed. --Cornprone (talk) 01:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Removed it. Danie Tei (talk) 05:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kingdom of Loathing/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Because the article requires considerable work and referencing issues from the last GA attempt haven't been rectified, I'm quick-failing KoL. The article is coming along nicely but the wiki sources remain from the previous GA attempt and the article as it stands is a C-class article.

Some suggestions:

• Please review this newsletter's suggestions for writing a lead and implement them accordingly.
• The article is filled with excessive sub-headings of different sizes, making reading a stop-start-stop-start affair. Though I'd expect some sub-headings due to MMOGs having comparitively complex gameplay mechanisms, this many is unwarranted. For instance the player interaction sub-heading seems fine, but the further sub-headings are just chopping up the prose when it could easily flow from one aspect to the next. The same goes for character classes, particularly as they are grouped by stat-focus and basic type (warrior, mage and thief).
• References should come directly after punctuation (no spaces) and there should be no spaces between multiple citations.
• Plot and setting is unsourced, and if what's there represents all that could be said about it then it would possibly be better as a sub-heading of gameplay rather than a standalone section. Swathes of the article are unsourced.
• History focuses mostly on named events rather than how the game came into being, this is very important for GA. Are no interviews etc. covering this aspect in more depth?
• Reception is not carrying much information at all, I'd like to see contributors really getting to the guts of the critique - what do they think of the game, the humour, the players? What aspects of the game are highlighted in multiple sources?
• References are a mess, red-linked dates with months in text should have set off warning-bells, they're inconsistently formatted. Web references should all be formatted like reference #2 (note that the Escapist has an article and can be linked within the reference) - author/publisher/date/accessdate, all that info should be in the citations.
• The reviews seem OK in terms of reliability, but most of the sources are forum posts and wiki pages, they really need removing altogether or keeping to the absolute minimum - if you need to use them then be prepared to justify them.
• An additional copy-edit or peer review would be a good route to go down before renominating. Before that, things like the inconsistent referencing styles, cross-referencing and more appropriate references, spaces between citations etc. should be rectified. If you force yourself to actually read the article word-for-word instead of mentally skipping over text you're so familiar with, things will spring out at you.

Thanks for the work you've done so far. Someoneanother 16:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)