Talk:Karna/Archive 2

The Character of Karna and Duryodhana

Here, the characters "Karna" and "Duryodhana" are described as evil-forces. But, "Mahabharat" has many versions. Epic was always written on "Historical facts". May be many imaginary facts were inserted during the long years. It's a fact that, the winner of a war always declares himself a good-person and makes the opponent villain. The books are forced to be written at the winner's favour. So, the historical truth needs to be revealed. "Shorosh Mahajanpad"-states have strong resemblance with the states, mentioned in "Mahabharat". So, it might be the war between the states of "Shorosh Mahajanpad"-staes. Many are researching to find the original facts. So, it is not right to declare directly "Karna" and "Duryodhana" as evil forces without knowing the historical fact, which needs to be found out by researching the connection between "Epic" and "History".

Even actual epic Mahabharata doesn't call them evil, good Vs evil is a western concept where there is constant fight between good and evil. In Mahabharata every character has both good and bad qualities and each reap the seeds they sowed in the form of Karma, ultimately Karna ends up in heaven and he is clearly identified as the avatar of Lord Surya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinesh2069 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

@Dinesh2069 (talk • contribs) : in article Karna, no body is described as evil force. In fact Karna is treated as a tragic hero. But Karna is one among 4 villains as per Vyasa. He titled Duryodhana, Dussasana, Shakuni and Karna as "Dushtachathushtayam" (4 evil). But in this article, there's no sentence or phrase describing any of the characters as an evil. One more thing, Karna was not avatar of Lord Surya, he was spiritual son of Surya and incarnation of a demon king named "Dambodbhava aka Sahasra kavacha". Irrespective of character, the warrior who dies in war enters heaven. That means his soul reaches heaven. It is believed that on getting killed in war, warrior's soul gets purified and hence he obtains heaven directly. But it doesn't mean that person is sacred and good before getting killed. Karna, the great warrior, also got killed in war and hence obtained heaven. He got killed by Arjuna (the foremost of all bowmen and warriors). Arjuna was born to kill Karna. Arjuna was re-incarnation of Nara. Getting killed in hands of Nara (Arjuna), Karna's sins got vanished. Hence he obtained heaven for fighting daringly (without fear).

Sri Harsha 14:22, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Questions about content

I seriously want to know why has Karna been identified as a guy who ordered sexual assault on Draupadi? Stripping isn't sexual assault and all the people of lower status were semi naked as per the rules of that time. Pandavas and Draupadi legally lost to Duryodhana and became his servants and Karna only played according to the rules when the court turned against Duryodhana. He just showed everyone how Duryodhana was also following scriptures and doing nothing wrong.

It is very insensitive to those who actually suffer sexual assault. This incidence can almost be considered physical assault or use of force. If it's considered sexual assault then how can anyone justify people of lower rung of the society who Had to be mandatorily semi naked? Is it state sponsored sexual assault? Also he did not call Draupadi a 'whore', he called her unchaste which was also according to scriptures, even Kunti says the same thing to Pandu when he asks her to call upon more gods for niyoga.

Main thing is why is Karna's repentance downplayed? He was offered to be king of everything by Lord Krishna himself and also Draupadi as his wife as well but he rejected everything. Karna losing in Swayamvara isn't given in any epic or version. Lastly why isn't Karna's digvijaya mentioned? And why isn't his unfair death given properly? Instead it is justification for Arjuna who killed him unfairly. Who has made these changes? Is Wikipedia a source of facts or propaganda? Just give simple facts instead of turning it into political issue and force feeding modern day justice issue on an epic written 2000+ years ago. It is really offensive.

Ps: I have proper citations to prove everything I have said above. Also no offence and apologies if I said something wrong but to a reader who has read actual epic, this seems out of ordinary. Like take Draupadi Swayamvara, Karna attacked Arjuna just as other kings but the editor has put in his own words like Karna did not like the brahmins who participated and this led others to insult him on his Varna. This kind of rubbish is what I am talking about. ---- Preceding was an unsigned comment added by Dinesh2069 (talk) 01:17, 28 October 2019. Signature added by Steve Quinn (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

@Dinesh2069: Welcome to wikipedia. Please review our content guidelines as well as behavioral guidelines such as WP:TALK/WP:TPNO. Wikipedia articles are not blogs or opportunities to what you may feel is the right information or to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Our articles rely on summarizing WP:RS. Your comments above read like your own views, and offer no cites/links to peer-reviewed scholarship with page numbers. Such comments are forum-y, generally ignored and sometimes sanctioned with blocks if repeated disruptively. You are welcome to identify and suggest high quality, peer-reviewed scholarly sources that are not summarized in this article. If you do so, we can work collaboratively and constructively. Your cooperation is requested, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Respected Sir/Ma'am,

I did not provide links above because I did it once on Arjuna page, it is highly vandalised and so I corrected it with proper proofs thrice and all three times instead I was accused of vandalism and the same page was reverted back. Hope you can understand a little anger on my part because it took me a long time to edit it properly and provide proper sources only for everything to go back into shambles.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinesh2069 (talk • contribs) 02:29, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

First of all, Mahabharata clearly states that Karna verbally attacked Draupadi. Different translations use different words including "Unchaste" and "Whore".

The rejection of Karna is more popular one as it is shown in serials for dramatic effect. Most manuscripts state that he failed.

The disrobing of Draupadi is a very complex topic. 245CMR (talk) 06:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Regarding biography

Regarding draupadi vastraharan

Duryodhana, hearing this, said,--'O Dussasana, this son of my Suta, of little intelligence, feareth Vrikodara. Therefore, go thou thyself and forcibly bring hither the daughter of Yajnasena, Our enemies at present are dependent on our will. What can they do thee?' Hearing the command of his brother, prince Dussasana rose with blood-red eyes, and entering the abode of those great warriors, spake these words unto the princess, 'Come, come, O Krishna, princess of Panchala, thou hast been won by us. https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02066.htm As per the epic it was Duryodhana who orders her to be dragged to the court so even if it's an assault as summarised Karna has nothing to do with it so please change it. Dinesh2069 (talk) 18:10, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

You are a Arjuna fan who isn't ready to accept facts even though proofs are provided. You can say anything, it doesn't matter. Thank you (Dinesh2069 (talk) 12:03, 6 April 2020 (UTC))

Regarding Swayamvara

And beholding the plight of those monarchs, Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string. And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe--like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu--regarded the mark as already shot and brought down upon the ground. But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle. https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01190.htm Karna was rejected, he did not fail Dinesh2069 (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Accusation that Karna Insulted the Brahmin for participating in the swayamvara

Vaisampayana said, 'When the king (Drupada) expressed his desire of bestowing his daughter on that Brahmana (who had shot the mark), all those monarchs who had been invited to the Swayamvara, looking at one another, were suddenly filled with wrath. And they said, 'Passing us by and

p. 377

treating the assembled monarchs as straw this Drupada desireth to bestow his daughter--that first of women,--on a Brahmana! Having planted the tree he cutteth it down when it is about to bear fruit. The wretch regardeth us not: therefore let us slay him. He deserveth not our respect nor the veneration due to age. Owing to such qualities of his, we shall, therefore, slay this wretch that insulteth all kings, along with his son. Inviting all the monarchs and entertaining them with excellent food, he disregardeth us at last. In this assemblage of monarchs like unto a conclave of the celestials, doth he not see a single monarch equal unto himself? The Vedic declaration is well-known that the Swayamvara is for the Kshatriyas. The Brahmanas have no claim in respect of a selection of husband by a Kshatriya damsel. Or, ye kings, if this damsel desireth not to select any one of us as her lord, let us cast her into the fire and return to our kingdoms. As regards this Brahmana, although he hath, from officiousness or avarice, done this injury to the monarchs, he should not yet be slain; for our kingdoms, lives, treasures, sons, grandsons, and whatever other wealth we have, all exist for Brahmanas. Something must be done here (even unto him), so that from fear of disgrace and the desire of maintaining what properly belongeth unto each order, other Swayamvaras may not terminate in this way.' https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01192.htm As you can see, it wasn't Karna. It was the Kshatriyas in general. He probably got angry at being rejected or fought for Duryodhana but he had no hand in insulting the brahmin. (Dinesh2069 (talk) 18:16, 21 March 2020 (UTC))

Changes

Dear admins and contributers. Kindly make the necessary changes as per the proof provided in the above discussion. They are proofs from primary source itself so Harsha's issue of wanting secondary source doesn't really work. This is an information site which shouldn't adhere to personal opinion like that of Harsha's. Thanks and regards (Dinesh2069 (talk) 09:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC))

Please use a secondary source as there are many versions of Mahabharata. By the way, I also know that it was Duryodhana, but I am not able to find where it is written that Karna ordered Dushasana to drag the lady. Please tell me so that I can change it. 245CMR (talk) 06:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Topics that could be added in biography

Fight with Drupada

As per guru dakshina, all students of Drona were ordered to fight with king Drupada and defeat him. Duryodhana requested Karna to help him. So, all Kauravas with Karna attacked Panchala. In the battle, Karna showed his prowess by killing huge number of soldiers. Karna decimated large army. Then, Drupada formed Chakravyuha. Karna led Kauravas and entered into Chakravyuha. Inside chakravyuha, Karna fought valiantly but he was unaware of destroying Chakravyuha. Drupada, extremely well versed in warfare techniques, defeated and arrested 100 Kauravas and Karna. Drupada appreciated Karna for Karna’s warrior skills. Later Arjuna with remaining Pandavas destroyed chakravyuha and Arjuna alone defeated Drupada and made Kauravas, Karna free.

Fight with Bhima

Pandavas performed Rajasuya yaga. According to this, they have to either defeat or make alliance with other kingdoms. When Bhima came to Anga Kingdom, Karna didn’t accept to make alliance due to which a terrific war took place between Bhima & Karna. Bhima and Karna both were very good archers. Each used some of their prominent weapons on the other. Bhima broke Karna’s bow. Then both of them fought with the mace. At last Bhima defeated Karna but failed to kill because of Karna’s Kavacha Kundal.

Fight with Chitrasena

After Pandavas lost in dice game and went on for exile, Duryodhana planned to humiliate Pandavas by showing them the luxuries enjoyed by all Kauravas and Karna. So all of them had set to forest where Pandavas were living. In the course of Journey, Duryodhana abducted a lady without knowing that she was a Gandharva. Then Gandharvas attacked entire Kauravas and Karna. Kauravas and Karna got defeated. Karna tried run away from battle-field after getting defeated by Chitrasena but he couldn't since Gandharvas captured all Kauravas and Karna. On knowing this, Yudhishtira asked Arjuna to free them since its Hastinapur which would be insulted. Arjuna followed his eldest brother's order and first requested Chitrasena to release Kauravas and Karna. Chitrasena rejected and asked Arjuna to fight with him in order to free Kauravas and Karna. Thus a battle took place. Arjuna defeated many warriors. Chitrasena became invisible and started fighting with Arjuna. Arjuna used Shabdavedi astra and captured Chitrasena. During the fight with Chitrasena, Arjuna had performed extremely impossible feats as he killed 10 lakh Gandharvas (4.5 akshouni) in single shot by using Agneyastra. Apart from Arjuna, no warrior ever achieved this impossible feats even in dreams. Finally Arjuna made Kauravas and Karna free.

Lakshmana’s Swayamvar

Duryodhana arranged a swayamvara for his daughter. Many young princes attended for it. Duryodhana became arrogant after seeing Krishna’s son Samba at swayamvara (Samba & Lakshmana were already in love) since he didn’t like a Yadava marrying his daughter. Hence Duryodhana attacked Samba. Samba defeated Duryodhana. As per order of Duryodhana, all warriors attacked Samba & arrested him. Knowing this, Lord Krishna attacked Hastinapur. A great battle took place in which Krishna defeated all warriors including Karna. After being defeated by Krishna, Karna attacked Pradyumna. Pradyumna defeated Karna but refused to kill him remembering Arjuna’s oath. After defeating all kurus, Krishna made Samba free and later Samba married Lakshmana

Virata war

Hearing about the death of Keechaka, Duryodhana surmises that the Pandavas were hiding in Matsya. A host of Kaurava warriors attack Virata, presumably to steal their cattle, but in reality, desiring to pierce the Pandavas' veil of anonymity. Full of bravado, Virata's son Uttar attempts to take on the army by himself while the rest of the Matsya army including rest of Pandavas has been lured away to fight Susharma and the Trigartas. As suggested by Draupadi, Uttar takes Brihannala with him, as his charioteer. When he sees the Kaurava army, Uttar loses his nerve and attempts to flee. There, Arjuna reveals his identity and those of his brothers'. Switching places with Uttar, Arjuna takes up the Gandiva and Devadatta. Eager to defend the land that had given him refuge, Arjuna engaged the legion of Kaurava warriors. Many warriors including Bhishma, Drona, Kripa, Karna and Ashwatthama attacked Arjuna altogether but Arjuna defeated all of them multiple times. During the war, Arjuna killed Sangramjit- the foster brother of Karna. Instead of taking revenge, Karna took heroic fight in order to save his life from Arjuna. Karna tried to fly away but he couldn't since Arjuna invoked Sammohanaastra which made entire army fell asleep.

References

@C.Fred he is right, Parshurama's curse in the biography of education. Do change it, let's make Wikipedia factual. (Dinesh2069 (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC))

User:Dinesh2069, your request can be accepted but please provide some secondary sources. 245CMR (talk) 12:31, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Subject regarding change in a paragraph

With Duryodhana, Karna is a key participant in insulting the Pandavas and Draupadi.[56][57] He humiliates the Pandavas with his gift of speech and mocks Draupadi, then calls her a "whore" and asks Duhshasana to strip her off her clothes.[58] It is Karna's language and insults that hurt the Pandavas and Draupadi the most, a sentiment that is noted in numerous verses of the Mahabharata such as 3.13.113 and 5.93.11.[56][59] Yet, states the Mahabharata scholar Alf Hiltebeitel, "remarkably, Karna regrets his harsh words to Draupadi and Pandavas", in verse 5.139.45, where he confesses he spoke so to please Duryodhana.[60]

Here Karna doesn't call Draupadi a wh*re, he calls her 'unchaste'.

https://sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02067.htm

Regards (Dinesh2069 (talk) 10:25, 24 May 2020 (UTC))

Subject regarding change in Draupadi swayamvar paragraph

So, when many princes and Karna seeking Draupadi as their bride failed to "string a legendary bow" step of the competition, the mendicant Arjuna steps forward and strings it.[45] Karna then objects. Karna's objection is that the competition is only meant for Kshatriyas, and Brahmins such as "the mendicant who just strung the bow" should not be competing for the hand of Draupadi, a Kshatriya bride. Duryodhana supports him. The gathered Kshatriyas too angrily support Karna, for they against the mixing of varna (here, Brahmin-Kshatriya marriage).

https://sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01190.htm

Here Karna did not fail, he was rejected by Draupadi for his caste and Karna did not speak about Brahmins not being able to participate. It was some random king present there. Dinesh2069 (talk) 10:28, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There are two versions where most manuscripts state that he failed. The topic of rejection is already written as a note. 245CMR (talk) 06:11, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Regarding change in hostilities with Pandavas

There, Karna uses the choicest words to insult Draupadi, then recommends a form of sexual assault where she is dragged and publicly disrobed, an injury with insult that takes the bitterness of Pandavas for Karna to much more emotional level from what previously was a dispute about respective martial prowess.[74][73][note 7] These are the sections of the epic when the Pandavas, Arjuna in particular, openly pledge to kill Karna.[76] Karna retaliates with words too, stating that Arjuna's death is so near that he will "not wash his feet until Arjuna is slain".[77

It isn't sexual assault on Draupadi. Karna speaks of taking off the robes of both Pandava's and Draupadi. Please do the needful and change it.

https://sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02067.htm

Regards (Dinesh2069 (talk) 10:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC))

done Divyam Seth (talk) 14:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Section Etimology

Name Vijayadhari must be rechecked. Karna didn't possess Vijaya bow given by Parashurama. There are no proper citations for it. Latest added Etimology section doesn't have proper citation. Other words like "Daanveer" must be changed with "Danvir". Kindly look into it. Thank you. Fire star on heat (talk) 03:43, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern. There are several sources which indicates Karna had bow named vijaya which was gifted by Lord Parasurama. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=tBMfCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT73&lpg=PT73&dq=vijaya+karna+google+book&source=bl&ots=SzwUPekrI-&sig=ACfU3U0MFpaqD3hQOeOefu3wbgpfBkYwtA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj71IfYu6vqAhVymeYKHclBCKEQ6AEwDXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=vijaya%20karna%20google%20book&f=false Ratan375 (talk) 07:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

Please add Karna had the strength of 10,000 elephants . It is mentioned in the epic.

"That hero who had the strength of ten thousand elephants, who in this world was an unrivalled car-warrior, who was possessed of leonine pride and gait, who was endued with great intelligence and compassion, whose liberality was very great, who practised many high vows, who was the refuge of the Dhartarashtras, who was sensitive about his honour, whose prowess was irresistible, who was ready to pay off all injuries and was always wrathful (in battle), who overthrew us in repeated encounters, who was quick in the use of weapons, conversant with every mode of warfare, possessed of great skill, and endued with wonderful valour (that Karna) was a son of Kunti, born secretly of her, and therefore, a uterine brother of ours. " Reference: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a001.htm Hunney Mallick (talk) 20:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done ~ Amkgp 💬 07:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 May 2020

"Please change and the common wife of the Pandavas – Draupadi too – says Krishna, will sleep with him" because krishna never said this line to Karna as she was krishna's so called sister. There is no refrence in hindu reigious books about this sentence. So please remove this line.Rest all information is corrrect. 35SHUBHAM717 (talk) 08:40, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Religious texts are primary sources and are thus not reliable. It would be appropriate for you to reference a scholarly source instead. Aasim 09:24, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Please edit parsurama curse its warior equal to yourself not greater

Link of mostly accepted authentic sacred text

Since thou hast, from avarice of weapons, behaved here with falsehood, therefore, O wretch, this Brahma weapon shalt not dwell in thy remembrance 1. Since thou art not a Brahmana, truly this Brahma weapon shall not, up to the time of thy death, dwell in thee when thou shalt be engaged with a warrior equal to thyself!

Kmg translated mahabharata

Its a request to you please dont defame karna Lalit rathore 0101 (talk) 03:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Lalit rathore 0101: It's not clear which text in the article you're referring to. —C.Fred (talk) 15:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Addition of Eknath Easwaran's play, "Son of the Sun"

I would like permission, to add to the list of plays, the English-language play, originally written for performance by children, "Son of the Sun", by Eknath Easwaran. Easwaran is most frequently cited English-language authorities on the Gita, (the Wikipedia page on the Gita uses his translation of the Mahabharata for it's quotations). I do not know if there is an electronic publication of the play, but I know it exists because I was amongst the children of Easwaran's followers, and I performed in the play as a child. I also still have my copy of the original script, and could upload it somewhere appropriate (archive.org). I am also sure that the Blue Mountain Center/Nilgiri Press, in California, would independently verify its existence. There are also videos.

Gsnxn (talk) 02:29, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Changing of "Angararaja" in "Etymology and epithets" to Anga-raja or Angaraja

I think that "Angararaja" should be changed to either proper form. 2601:643:8101:64E1:7833:6DDD:48FA:71F9 (talk) 16:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not donePlease provide a reliable source. --regentspark (comment) 16:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2020

Can I please edit the Karna article. I would love to add more details. Ricky0799 (talk) 08:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

To editor Ricky0799:  Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. Please read the brief Extended confirmed protection part of Wikipedia's editing policy. Thank you so much for wanting to dig right in and start editing! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 17:37, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Spouses of Karna

In the epic Mahabharata, Katha's wives don't play important roles. However, his wives are mentioned. According to various sources, he had more than one wife. Out of which many state that he married two women, one from Suta caste and another one from Kshatriya caste. Though the names of the women change according to the versions and regions, most describe them to be Vrushali from Suta caste and Supriya from Kshatriya caste.

Vrushali was the sister of the charioteer of Duryodhana and the childhood friend of Karna.

Supriya was the best friend of Bhanumati, the consort of Duryodhana.

Some also include Padmavati.

I request one of the extended confirmed user to add parameter "spouses" in the infobox. 245CMR (talk) 08:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Request for edit ignored.

I gave proper proofs' thrice with proper citations to be changed but the admins seem to be ignoring it. Please consider. (Dinesh2069 (talk) 07:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC))

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 July 2020

Under Etymology and epithets, I would like to add Kaunteya, son of Kunti as Karna was also referred to as by this name. Karnasurya02 (talk) 07:32, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jack Frost (talk) 08:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)