Talk:KMFDM/Archive 1

"Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid"/"Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit"

Okay, I've made some changes to this apparently highly controversial and infinitely confusing section, in an attempt to (hopefully) clarify the name issue. However, while I know I have a vast knowledge of KMFDM, I am very limited when it comes to German so if I just made things worse, then by all means revert my edits. What we need is a KMFDM fan who is fluent in both German and English, and feels like messing with it (what are the chances of getting Sascha to clear things up once and for all?). --buck 23:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Awesome job...and as someone who has studied German, maybe I can add my two cents. It seems to me that the majority of what has been written on this topic makes sense: That is, that the correct way to say "No pity for the majority / No mercy for the masses" (the latter translation being one to which I was always partial, just because I think it sounds better :) would be in fact "Kein Mitleid..." I always assumed Sascha used the reverse because KMFDM is constantly tongue-in-cheek (with a few exceptions...).

Now, the rumor I always heard was that it was shorted to KMFDM because Raymond Watts could not pronounce the German.

Anyway, I would like to finally address the possible alternate meaning from the "Light" single. Waaay back in high school, when I was first becoming a KMFDM fan, I took the liner notes from that particular single (which has the whole German monologue on the inside) to my German teacher, who interpreted it for me. I realize now that it's hard to tell (especially since it is printed in all caps on the inside), but it does not start out as "Musik ist macht" (which would mean "Music is more") it starts out "Musik ist Macht" (which would mean "Music is power"). Thus, the last phrase, I always felt, would be "Keiner Macht fuer dich mehr" which would mean something like "No more power for you". Thoughts?The-dissonance-reports 16:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks for looking into it. I noticed the differences in caps/lowercase as well, and since German is quite foreign to me, I really haven't the knowledge to figure it out on my own. But I always figured that last German line in "Light" is yet another example of tongue-in-cheek wordplay that so frequently pops up in KMFDM songs; that is, the dual English "translations" may in fact be intentional. While "No more power for you" is probably the more grammatically accurate (and certainly follows KMFDM's anti-establishment leanings), the phrase "No one does more for you" fits very nicely in the blatant self-promoting/self-lampooning theme of this very excellent song ("KMFDM doin' it again/a treat for the freaks..."). And following another theme common in the KMFDM catalog, "No one does more for you" contradicts "No more power for you" so beautifully (especially if "music is more" and "music is power"). The way I see it, this has to be intentional. Astounding ingenuity indeed! --buck 18:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• KMFDM means "No Pity for the Masses", not Majority. I am not sure about the proper translation. That is what Sasha has said it means, and they use it in thier songs. Sasha has made multiple references to what KMFDM means. He sent out an e-mail once that said it meant "Fuck Rammstein", Because the band "Sold Out" to MTV. 70.125.43.99 13:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Here is where he uses "No Pity for the Masses" in the Lyrics:
  • "Ripped the system and burnt the shreds / No pity for the masses / Sympathizer I am / A communist / A prick up some asses" 13:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but note that the lyrics don't say "KMFDM stands for No Pity for the Masses" so how do we know this was Sascha's intent? Furthermore, earlier promotions, publicity, and interviews cite "No pity for the majority". Personally, I'd just assume the two are used interchangably. Heck, the German phrasing is nonsensical anyway--and Sascha has been notoriously inconsistant in providing a true "meaning"--so KMFDM may as well stand for Kapt'nK Makes Funky Disco Music. Heh, and I seriously doubt the Rammstein business was meant to be taken seriously. --buck 16:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• True, then we can always debate MDFMK. I guess without a quote from Sasha, the answer will not be known. 70.125.43.99 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Okay... I just did a pretty major edit of the Etymology section... hopefully you guys will find it useful. Here's some of the reasoning behind the changes I made:

1. Grouped info to provide a better focus on the true history of the name. The previous edit seemed to focus too much on the grammar arguments too soon. I moved info around to provide the history first, and then details of the grammar and commonly confused name in a separate second paragraph.
2. Start off by telling what the acronym actually means and then give the translation, not the other way around. That always bugged me.
3. The official MySpace page (along with the new official VampireFreaks page) has been updated to reference the true name, so now all official sources are consistent!
4. Tried to provide more robust linkage to the German grammar aspect so readers can look into some of those details if interested.
5. Added thumbnail of 84-86 to illustrate how far back the name goes.
6. Added a reference to the German interview mentioned by 84.178.51.130 on this talk page in which Sascha explained how "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit" was used in the lyrics of Megalomaniac to intentionally confuse people.
7. Other than that, the information is essentially the same.

— 216.15.124.172 08:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Excellent job! I think that should fix the confusion problems once and for all (or at least stop the casual visitors from swapping "Mehrheit" and "Mitleid" all the time). I've struggled with trying to clean up this section for a while. Thanks, it looks great now! --buck 16:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow. This would seem to be a no-brainer. KMFDM means Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit as per this industry interview with Sascha. The other 'sources' used to back up the claim that it is some non-sensical Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid are just confused. This interviewer does not understand the context of Sascha's comment at all: the name is "wrong" (falsch) because of what it implies, not because it is grammatically incorrect. This FAQ is just as confused, as its author gives the wrong German original for the right English translation. KMFDM is not out to "confuse" people - it's just a bit tedious when non-German speakers keep asking, year after year, "So, what does KMFDM stand for?"...

Ok, for the LAST Time:

KMFDM stands for the German incorrect Sentence "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid" what means translated on English "No Majority for Pity". Yes, correctly its "No Pity for the Majority", but they have it intentional wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.116.99 (talk) 17:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Member/Ex-Member Listing

Perhaps someone might be able to enlighten the page by adding all of the member/ex-member of the band because there seems to be a lot of switching around of members that people would not be able to remember as easily as if there were one simple band. StaticPark

That's a good point, but it would be very difficult to do. The thing is, Sascha K is the founder and the only original member; everyone else just kind of rotates in and out. With each album and tour, KMFDM goes through a new change in lineup, often by bringing in past contributors (i.e. Bill Rieflin) or even merging an existing band with KMFDM (see PIG, Excessive Force, MDFMK). Furthermore, Sascha employs many guest artists for recording--especially in the Nihil/Xtort/Symbols days--all of whom he describes as members of KMFDM. Such a list would be long and probably under heavy debate (by Sascha's definition, Trent Reznor would technically be a member). Nor is it easy to define an "ex-member" of KMFDM (like, for example, David Lee Roth is an ex-member of Van Halen). Many consider Raymond Watts a central figure in KMFDM, but he has not recorded or performed with them in a few years. Is he an ex-member? Probably not, as he has skipped out on albums/tours in the past. The same with guys like Tim Skold and Mark Durante. They never official left or got fired, but neither has worked with KMFDM for some time. Is Bill Rieflin gone, or just busy? Even En Esch and Günter Schulz--while they had a very public falling out with Sascha, who's to say they are gone for good? I guess those two are the closest we can come to defining "ex-members".

That said, I may try to put together some type of section that lists the major contributors and whether they are still active with the band. --buck 18:12, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Wrong dates in opening paragraph?

According to the offical band website [1] the group were created in Germany, not Paris, and they moved to Chicago in the mid 80's not 1991.

"Spawned in Germany during 1984, KMFDM pioneered the crossover between techno/dance and heavy metal with their signature industrial sound. Moving to Chicago in the mid-80s KMFDM was the pride of Wax Trax Records during the label’s peak. Rapidly evolving year by year through intense experimentation and touring; the band has redefined themselves with each new release."

• A part version of their website [2] indicates that KMFDM was founded in Paris and didn't come to the US until late 1989. That's been the story in the past. R Calvete 12:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Name Translation, Yet Again

Please stop changing Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid to Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit. While the latter is grammatically correct, members of the band cite the former as their preferred translation and that it is intended to be a play on words. See the official KMFDM FAQ as linked from KMFDM's official website, or view the band's DVDs to access interviews where they cite this translation. Thank you. --buck 15:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I give up. --buck 22:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Well hmm. Apparently the official KMFDM myspace says "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit." I think I'll let someone else deal with this one. --buck 01:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps there is no true definition of the KMFDM acronym? Since the whole thing apparently was meant to be a play on words in the first place maybe Sacha eventually expanded that to be a play on the fans and journalists trying to figure it out. If I were him I would get a kick out of seeing everyone just trying to figure it out. 921Dennis 20:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

General

I believe there are some inaccuracies and omissions in this article. Most notably, there's no mention of MDFMK, which Sascha Konietzko and Tim Skold formed during the brief break-up period. --LarryGilbert 10:22, 2004 Mar 1 (UTC)

I'm getting to the lack of MDFMK (A message from Satan if you turn it around), but i started En Esch, Slick Idiot, and P.I.G. first. MDFMK is on my list of articles to begin. Crackshoe 15:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wunderbar! ;-) --LarryGilbert 02:52, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

I figure if i slowly get around to doing every band with a 2nd degree connection to KMFDM, i should have nearly every industrial band. should keep me busy for years. Crackshoe 04:44, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Unsure why link to firstworldmusic.com still is up -- i see no current relationship to KMFDM. will remove soon, unless theres a reason to keep it. Crackshoe 02:04, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I saw someone added yet another 'meaning' for KMFDM. Is probably better to just link to one of the vast catalogues of meanings online, rather than just expanding that one parageaph. Crackshoe 01:42, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

The new alternate meaning was never used by the band and nothing turns up with Kirk's Mother's Fat Dildo Man on Google... so I've removed it. Tremblay 22:15, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

As per discussion on Talk:Assemblage 23 and Category talk:Goth, removing from Category:Goth and adding to List of non-goth musical artists popular within goth subculture. - Korpios 02:08, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Anyone else think a different picture might be in order? Particularly, one including Sascha, since he DID cofound it and IS the only person to be on every album. --Eel 02:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

The picture of newbie jules bothers me too. I'm just going to go ahead and change it to an early band pic.--Flashmorbid 04:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I was on the KMFDM website, and it said they were from Germany, not Paris. I have read Paris a few other places, but their Biography says Germany.

• Sascha and other early members are from Germany, however I believe KMFDM as a concept was concocted in Paris. From the official website bio:

Spawned in Germany during 1984...

and from the official FAQ:

Sascha Konietzko and painter/multimedia artist Udo Sturm founded KMFDM on February 29th, 1984, in Paris, France.

So I suppose that means both Germany and France were jointly involved in the manufacturing of weapons of mass destruction. --buck 14:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

KMFDM Name Translation

According to the KMFDM FAQ:

Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid

(which loosely translated means: no pity for the majority) And yes, it is proper German to say "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit", but the question refers to KMFDM, not proper German.

The article says otherwise.

Hi everyone, minor nitpick:

Doesn't "Keine Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" translate to "No majority for pity" or "No majority for compassion"?

--Spazzm 14:23, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)

Maybe in proper German, but KMFDM and what's proper are superficially related at best. For the record, the band's name stands for "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" and is officially translated as "No pity for the majority". R Calvete 19:45, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)

Actually, "Keine Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" doesn't mean anything at all, as it is not proper German. Germans would have a hard time understanding it, I have serious doubts any German would use this phrase. The word "Die" is not used in conjunction with "Mitleid" as the term "Kein" is not used with "Mehrheit". If at all, it should read "Keine Mehrheit für das Mitleid" (no majority for pity), while "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit" (no pity for the majority) is perfectly valid German. Is there an official statement of _the band_ (i.e. not of some obscure FAQ)regarding this name?cgk 8 July 2005 13:47 (UTC)

I believe the "obscure" FAQ comes directly from the band. They used to host that FAQ on their website, a few years ago. The meaning of their name is essentially nonsense, which is why it's always said "loosely" translated. -->Chemical Halo July 8, 2005 21:21 (UTC)

Hi there! Three reasons, why it's definitely "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit":

1. Given that Sascha is a German, he'd most likely not use grammatically senseless phrases like "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid". (Correct: "Keine Mehrheit für das Mitleid") I'm German myself and nobody would utter such nonsensical phrases in his native language.

2. "no pity for the majority" pretty much sums up the band's anti-establishment attitude.

3. Most importantly: The phrase "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit" appears in the intro to their song "Megalomaniac" on the symbols album.

Point 3 should settle it once and for all, shouldn't it? Listen to the band themselves! It clearly is "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit". KMFDM's very own lyrics and the CD booklet should be more trustworthy than some obscure FAQ, shouldn't they?

Please correct that section and finally settle this dispute. 84.178.50.144 11:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)

---

The actual original meaning IS "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid". Yes it is grammatically incorrect, and Sascha knows that. He has said many times it is sort of a play on words. Vaguely like saying "What can I do you for?" instead of "What can I do for you?" Yes, they said it the "correct" way in Megalomaniac, but in "Light" they also said "Keiner Macht Fur Dich Meir" as another alternative. That doesn't change the original definition, and neitehr does the quote from Megalomaniac. See http://kmfdm.biohazardmusic.com/bio.html for the origin of the name. 'During one day, Konietzko was cutting out headlines from several German newspapers and shuffling them around on the table when a phrase was spelled out, "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" ' Technocratic 11:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi again. I'll retract my previous statement. Even a lot of German interviews on the Internet mention the true meaning as "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid", usually pointing out that this IS the deliberately gramatically wrong phrase as the band intended it. Many articles confirm that it was derived by shuffling newspaper headlines around, like http://www.pagandance.de/words/kmfdm/kmfdm2.html However this means that the translation "no pity for the majority" is actually wrong. The phrase is deliberately nonsensical and gramatically wrong. Sorry. I stand corrected. One article at http://www.entry-magazin.de/IntervKMFDM.htm states that the lyrics from "Megalomaniac" were intended to deliberately confuse people who keep on claiming the name is "wrong". Well, they obviously succeeded. ;-) 84.178.51.130 12:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)

Very literally, the name is No Majority For The Pity. Just leave it at that. —Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

KMFDM and Marilyn Manson?

The opening paragraph mentions other artists with whom KMFDM has toured and performed. Marilyn Manson is included--I don't recall KMFDM ever performing/touring with Manson, other than Tim Skold having left KMFDM to replace Twiggy Ramirez (who left MM). Is this a recent development? --buck 21:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, just another bullcrap attempt to demonize so they can scapegoat KMFDM.

Brad 16:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Photos

The photo previously illustrating this article (a publicity shot, here) has been replaced with a fan photo from a recent concert. I understand this new photo may be more desirable because the photographer has licensed it to Wikipedia, however--no offense to the photographer--it really is not a good pic to illustrate the article for several reasons. First, it's primarily a shot of Lucia Cifarelli and Steve White (well, the back of his head), both of whom have only been in the band for a few years. Heck--old Steve, as much as we love him, has only recorded on one studio album (as of yet), and there is a photo further down in the page illustrating the current band line-up. Second, this article has no image of En Esch, Guenter Schultz, or Raymond Watts. While these gentlemen may no longer be in the band, they have contributed much to the long history of KMFDM. Third, Sascha Konietzko--the founder, frontman, and sole remaining original member--is barely visible in the photo. I think the old photo was working just fine since it was a publicity shot intended for promotional purposes, but if we need a more "public" photo, could someone perhaps post a pic that at least includes Konietzko and En Esch? Nice shot of Jules, though... --buck 22:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Right; we always prefer free, reusable content to unfree content that we are making a "Wikipedia:Fair use" claim on. In this case, the old image, Image:Kmfdm01.jpg, is problematic even for "fair use". It is tagged "publicity", but it's just linked to some student's webpage, so there's no way to know if the image was really a "work for hire" for the band, label, or their management, or if we're stealing the work of some photographer for a music magazine. We have no authorship info, no copyright holder info, and, even if we had those, there is no fair use rationale. That image is pretty much doomed to deletion. Ideally we would find a better freely-licensed image. Know any fans who have taken better photographs than this one that would be willing to license them under a free license? Jkelly 22:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

So I take it that pictures from the official website, even when credited and documented properly to adhere to the fair use clause, are out? If the criterion truly is that the photo be taken by a fan in the audience, then I guess I'll go dig through my old concert pics because I'm sure I have one that would better illustrate this article than the back of Steve's head--though I'm tempted to think that it may not be worth the effort. --buck 04:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Images from /photos/press are almost certainly good candidates for a "fair use" claim. If they're needed to illustrate different lineups, or band members we don't have any free pictures of, I doubt that anyone is going to be concerned. Why in the world would it "not be worth the effort" to upload your own photography? Jkelly 16:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

For the reason you just pointed out--that the press photos when used appropriately are good candidates for fair use. I think that's the best route to go. --buck 19:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Except that they will be replaced by free content as soon as it is available. The point here isn't to make attractive articles, but to make a free, reusable encyclopedia. If you have images that are you willing to release under a free license, why shouldn't we use yours instead of, well, whoever else comes along and donates theirs? Jkelly 00:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Contacted the site owner of the source cited by the photo uploader. He recalled the image was almost assuredly obtained from the official KMFDM website sometime between 1995 and 1997, and had been indicated as being a promo photo. I am currently in the process of contacting Sascha K of KMFDM to verify the accuracy of this information. --216.15.124.172 03:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources

Please note that a request for source citations is not an attempt to discredit the article or speculate on the validity any particular information included in the article. I do not dispute any of this article's content; I have added a couple citation requests to this article for the sole purpose of improving this article. See Wikipedia's notes on citing sources. --buck 14:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

For the sentence in contention, what part is the citation request referencing? If it's the part about Esch's orginal name being Klaus Schandelmaier, a reference is provided on the main En Esch article (a link to BMI's repertoire database, showing all of Esch's songwriting credits attributed to Klaus Schandelmaier). In such a situation, is it really necessary to cite a reference every time a fact appears anywhere in Wikipedia? This seems a little impractical to me, since then in the strictest sense of this rule every sentence of every article should have a citation reference. --216.15.124.172 00:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Buck, I don't think there was a contest on the validity of the article, its just the information came directly from the source. Is there a way then you can come up with a creative reference from kmfdm.com/.net or whereever if you need it. I think linking to En Esch is enough, if its that sentence. Good job at keeping the article growing though. --vi 05:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry 'bout the confusion. My citation request was not intended to verify En Esch's birth name; rather, to find a source for the early "coming together" of KMFDM's key personel. I think we need a source for this:

"Sturm had no lasting musical aspirations and Konietzko was interested in studio recordings more than the occasional art-performance, therefore he joined forces with then-Hamburg, Germany-based studio owner Raymond Watts and drummer Klaus Schandelmaier..."

Musical aspirations, Watts as a studio owner, etc. It's a good idea to cite that info. Again, not that I dispute any of it. I think this article is well-written and strong. I'd like to see the KMFDM article consistently achieve a higher standard than all those sub-par fanboyish band articles, much in the way that KMFDM themselves consistently achieve a higher standard than all those sub-par fanboyish bands (see articles on Taime Downe, Fall Out Boy). And if that's really Sascha contributing to the article, then we are certainly at an advantage!  :) --buck 15:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That is Sascha. Email him if you don't believe me. --63.23.42.218 03:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Relax man, I believe you. I've emailed him several times over the years. --buck 04:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

63.23.42.218, it is not a matter of whether or not Sascha edited the page himself (which is very likely given the fact that the IP address of the editor in question traces to Seattle, and he also edited a German article about Sascha's grandmother). The issue at hand is that (1) articles cannot contain "original research", and (2) all information contained within Wikipedia should strive to be independently verifiable through hard references. As silly as it may sound to most of us, Sascha's first-hand recollection of past events would be considered original research in this instance, and additionally it is not easily independently verifiable through a static reference (i.e. anyone wishing to verify such information would have to email Sascha and wait for a response). I believe, however, that if Sascha were to publish this information elsewhere first, be it in an interview, FAQ, history section on the official KMFDM site, or some other reputable and consistent outlet, that would satisfy both conditions I mentioned earlier. Of course, that is just my understanding of the content-creation guidelines on Wikipedia, so any further discussion would be appreciated. --216.15.124.172 04:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

@ 216.15.124.172,: I think Sascha posting here himself should be enough of a reference. I do see what you're getting at, but I don't think that he will "edit" the history section of the KMFDM website or say something that specific in an interview. How often does the subject of a wikipedia article actually contribute? Thumbs to Sascha for that. I believe that in this rare case, that the standards of citing should be ignored. How would everyone feel if he were to post on the discussion? -- mando 04:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am 99% sure that is Sascha himself. The ip is from seattle, he edited the german KMFDM article, plus the german article on his Grandmother. Which I think up until now, only he knew about her. So it's either Sascha, or someone who is fluent in german, lives in seattle, knows A LOT about KMFDM, and knows something about Sascha's family history. -- mando 04:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem as if Sascha will contribute anything more. His direct quote was "fuck'em". It was good for the two days it lasted. -- mando 05:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is highly unfortunate. His contributions would be quite valuable. Sascha, perhaps you can pop over to this talk page and provide some pointers/clarifications? That would certainly get around this citation issue, at least. --buck 12:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That's what I asked him to do. I even linked here. -- mando 12:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Udo Sturm

Would someone be kind enough to write a stub for Udo? -- mando 23:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Link

Someone named Dan or something reverted the link I put up, calling it spam because I own it. I do own it, but obviously if Dan would've clicked the link he would see it is indeed a KMFDM fansite and not spam. I think he has it out for me now, so please if he comes back revert any edits he makes. Thank you --mando 20:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes that would be me. I removed the link because mando added it in violation of WP:EL, which states that one should not add links to websites that they own or maintain. The guideline is pretty clear on that. Furthermore, one fansite per article is the accepted standard. If a consensus is reached among regular editors here that beatbybeat.net is the most appropriate fansite for KMFDM and wish to replace the other fansites with beatbybeat.net then fine, I have no issues with this. All I ask is that WP:EL is respected. Thanks --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 21:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. no I do not "have it out for you." I only have issues with certain edits you have made lately, as I have mentioned on your talk page --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Dan stay out of here, the link was taken care of Mando -- 63.23.28.55 23:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Logging out and editing under your IP does not a consensus make. Please stop adding the link in violation of guidelines. --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 00:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ummm you should check the ips again --mando 01:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

R Calvete just pointed out the obvious, which should be the nail in the coffin for this link - the site hasn't even launched yet! The main page says "Coming Soon" --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 05:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Speaking of the external links... AbsolutDan brought up a good point about the growing number of fan sites listed under the external links. This list had been kept fit and lean for a long time, but recently it seems to have exploded with every random fan site there is. In my opinion, the following links should be kept:
http://www.kmfdm.net
http://www.kmfdmstore.com/
http://www.myspace.com/officialkmfdm
http://www.kmfdmfaq.com/faq.htm
http://www.theultraheavybeat.com/ (a fansite, but probably the best to option among the bunch since bandmembers often post on the forums)
(in that order)

and the following links should be removed for the following reasons:
http://www.kmfdmradio.net/ (another fansite, and doesn't even work anymore)
http://www.kmfdmnews.com/ (another fansite, not even in English, more appropriate for French article)
http://www.kmfdm.ru/ (ditto, more appropriate for Russian article)
http://www.theswining.com/ (not even a KMFDM site, should be on PIG/Watts article if anywhere)
http://www.raymondwatts.com/ (same reason, another PIG fansite)

I'm up in the air on the following sites, but leaning toward removal:
http://www.kmfdm.biohazardmusic.com/ (decent fansite, but just that, another fan site)
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Btnem97i7krjt~C (not really any added value of information)
http://www.lyricsdir.com/kmfdm-lyrics.html (I guess this one is kind of unique compared to the others, would probably let it pass)

I think the article is better served by keeping the list small and focused. This is supposed to be an encylopedia article, not a fansite link page. People who are really interested in the band beyond a passing interest in reading a little bit about who they are here on Wikipedia will always be able to find fansites via links on the official KMFDM page and search engines. I know I've been a little long-winded here, but anybody have any other thoughts? 63.107.220.142 00:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think a fansite should only be included if it contains accurate and verifiable information that is not simply a repeat of what's included on the KMFDM official site. By this arguement, I would include the Ultra Heavy Beat for the above reason, but not the lyrics directory since all the KMFDM lyrics are available on the official site. Regarding mando's site, I haven't commented simply because the site is not up and running yet. I think it should be left off until the content is available. Right now it's just a registered domain. Another site that should probably stay on the links list is the official myspace page, since it is operated by the band (or representatives of the band) and occasionally has info not available at KMFDM.com. Plus readers can go there to access samples of KMFDM's music, which is what makes them a notable subject for wikipedia in the first place. Peace. --buck 16:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• There really is no reason we should not have the links back. Take mine out I don't care, but let's leave the links the way they were. They were fine.(thanks dan) --mando 20:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If we opt to put them back up (which I'm not entirely opposed to, excepting the lyrics directory), perhaps we could have some section headings to distinguish between "official" KMFDM sites, discussion forums, fan sites, music guides, etc. Just a thought... --buck 20:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• I've added links to KMFDM Records and the offical VampireFreaks page, since these are official and endorsed by the band. The latter is similar to the myspace page, but features more broader variety of songs (full length rather than clips). --buck 16:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The external links as they are now look good. I don't regularly edit this page, but I regularly watch it. --vi 21:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I have reverted the removal of the official MySpace, VampireFreaks, and Ultraheavybeat fansite links for the following reason:

WP:EL has the following to say about what should not be linked:

Certain kinds of pages should not be linked from Wikipedia articles. Except where noted, this list does not override the list of what should be linked. For example, if the subject of an article has an official website, then it should be linked even if it contains factually inaccurate material. (bold added)

If you then take a look at what WP:EL says about what should be linked:

An article about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to that entity's official site, if there is one. (bold added)

and

If there are many fansites for the topic covered by the article, then providing a link to one major fansite (and marking the link as such) may be appropriate. (bold added)

The MySpace and VampireFreaks pages are both official pages operated by the band, and the ultraheavybeat.com is a major fansite that has been chosen by consensus as the best fansite by regular editors of this page.
– 63.107.220.191 19:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Bandmembers themselves seem to endorse the Ultra Heavy Beat by frequently posting on the message boards. Keep it. --buck 20:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not really a fansite, more of a message board. KMFDM goes there because it is the ONLY messageboard devoted to KMFDM on the internets. Sascha hardly endorses the place, he rather despises it.

Chronolgy - Columbine & Break-up

The article discusses Columbine first (in the topic "Controversy") and then discusses the break-up. This could be confusing since the break-up in January 1999 was before Columbine April 1999. (Xsxex 13:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC))

Good point. I've made the appropriate changes. --buck 20:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Name dropping?

The section I edited out lists a number of bands that may be significant to someone, but is it encyclopedic or relevant to people in general who are visiting the page for more information about KMFDM? Thier opinion might matter, but it needs to be set up as to why before the opinion is just trotted out. Hackwrench 04:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't have a problem with the section before. I think maybe with this edit, it could be best suited to say bands they are associated with or similar too in genre. I don't know, I'm mulling it over, but buck is the one that does most the work on this page. I just read it. -- vi 02:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

---

I don't think it's a matter of simple "name dropping". The purpose of the wording of the original sentence was to identify 3 things:

1. KMFDM's genre as being industrial rock
2. Their role as a "gateway band" to the genre for larger audiences
3. Indicating Sascha's alternate description for their sound (UHB).

I don't feel there's a problem with mentioning the other bands by name, along the same lines as if you were to discuss The Who as being a pioneering British rock band, it would be appropriate to make that acknowledgement alongside the Beatles and Rolling Stones. By mentioning the other bands, it conveys the point that KMFDM, at several points in their career, have flirted with mainstream popularity and introduced some people to industrial music who might not have otherwise been exposed to it, but they are not the first or only band to have done so. I'm not entirely opposed to removing the references to the other bands, but if you do, then you either end up with something misleading that makes it sound like they were the first or only band to make inroads with mainstream audiences or something awkward like "KMFDM, along with some other bands, ...". I definitely think everything else about the sentence should remain the same, and at the very least UHB should remain described as their "sound" (and not their "genre", since it's not really a genre at all). We should really get consensus before removing that information, since it seems to be a somewhat contentious issue.

—216.15.124.172 15:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've been out of town for the past few weeks and thus have not kept up with the recent changes. Anyway, my thoughts on the name-dropping:

While recognized within the ranks of Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and later, Nine Inch Nails, as pioneers in introducing industrial music to mainstream audiences, KMFDM describes their sound as "Ultra-Heavy Beat".

Looking over it now, I can see how this reads as a showcase of more mainstream industrial bands (note that "industrial" is a broad term) rather than a legitimate inclusion of similar band articles. A rephrasing of the sentence is necessary, but I do feel that Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and NIN are all worth a mention in the article for several reasons. In the early-to-mid 90s, so-called alternative music was launched into the mainstream (MTV, college radio, etc--at least in the US; I can't speak for other places) and these bands, although quite different in sound and style to the aficionado's ear, were grouped into the "industrial" sub-genre. KMFDM was quite often mentioned alongside these other groups. This was also the height of KMFDM's success, at least from a video/radio/danceclub playlist perspective ("Drug Against War", "Juke Joint Jezebel"). Also, although it violates NPOV, most KMFDM fans will easily point out that ANGST and especially NIHIL are very "mainstream-sounding" albums, considering they were released in 1993 and 1995, respectively. Compare them to NIN's Broken and Downward Spiral, Ministry's Psalm 69, Stabbing Westward's Wither Blister Burn & Peel, and the first Gravity Kills album, and even David Bowie's Outside. All sold a bazillion copies and had massive radio singles. Who inspired who? Who copied who? It's hard to say, although it does show that KMFDM, albeit briefly, were considered mainstream (it is evident that at the time Sascha K preferred to distance himself from the mainstream industrial affiliation, thus the "Ultra-Heavy Beat" tag). But perhaps the most important reason that Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and NIN warrant a mention--they have all been directly affiliated with KMFDM. Both William Rieflin (Ministry) and Nivek Ogre (Skinny Puppy) have recorded and performed live with KMFDM, and Trent Reznor (NIN) did a remix for the "Light" single and signed Raymond Watts to Nothing Records. KMFDM also have similar connections with My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult and Marilyn Manson, two other "mainstream industrial" groups of the time. --buck 00:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

T-shirt section

I removed the following section, which was added on 8 Aug 06:

"The aforementioned shirts are a popular item amongst KMFDM fans, many of them become collector's items due to them being discontinued. The shirts usually feature their album/single cover art on the front, and on the back, a lyric from one of the songs on that particular record. When discontinued, sometimes they are reprinted with minor alterations. A popular example example is their Godlike shirt. The back of the original shirt featured the Godlike lyric "I Will Pray!" when re-printed sometime in the late 90's. They changed the back of the shirt's text to "Govern Your Soul!", a lyric from the song Vogue. Which also makes this particular shirt anachronistic, because Vogue came out in 1992, Whereas Godlike came out in 1990."

This seems rather unencyclopedic in that it's more promotional than anything (though as we all know, KMFDM is all about blatant self-promotion!). I understand a mention of KMFDM shirts and their desirablity is beneficial to the article, and we have that in the "artwork" section, perhaps with a tad bit of elaboration. But I'm guessing we shouldn't discuss the various details of specific shirts (in addition to the "Godlike shirts", there have been quite a few limited editions/rarities). Your thoughts? --buck 15:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. The collectible t-shirts don't warrant anything more than a passing mention, and definitely not an entire section.

—63.107.220.191 20:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Genre

Someone's changed the genre to 'Neue Deutsche Härte' - personally, I beleived 'Industrial Rock' to be a better classification. Does anyone else want it reverted? Jimeree 08:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That same IP changed a half dozen articles, taking articles with 3 or more genres and reducing the band down to "NDH-metal" band. It was ridiculous. L'Ame immortelle, even! I reverted a number. If the IP would like to ADD information about NDH, fine. Otherwise, like my edit summary for this article says, it's ridiculous to name KMFDM after a genre whose "pioneers" released their album 8 years after KMFDM started pumping out records. - BalthCat 08:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If KMFDM has incorporated elements of NDH into some of their records, then reference it that way, perhaps on the album articles. While KMFDM was originally based in Germany, they are hardly a NDH band. --buck 16:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Soundtracks

I removed Streetfighter II: The Animated Feature and CSI from the soundtrack list. Since this is a discography, we should probably only include commercial soundtrack discs and avoid instances where KMFDM's music was included in a TV show or film. Like when "Juke Joint Jezebel" was on 90210--this isn't part of their discography. I don't mean to be nit-picky, nor am I opposed to including this information in the article; I'm just trying to keep things consistant. Peace. --buck 01:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Caustic debacle

I removed this paragraph from the "Controversy" section--

During the fall of 2006, regional powernoise force Caustic was tapped to play five dates throughout the midwest. After the initial performance at the House of Blues in Chicago, Caustic was abruptly removed from the tour. A phone conversation between Konietzko and Caustic's Matt Finale indicates that a sole promotional flyer for a Caustic-related event was the offending item, without further clarification. The internet backlash was severe, with KMFDM leaving the stage early at several dates - credited to a veritable army of scorned Caustic fans. In Cleveland, KMFDM was booed from the stage, and security was overrun by displeased members of the audience. A Caustic fan by the name of Eric Oehler was arrested during this fracas for reportedly micturating upon Konietzko's sampler.

If someone can provide a source, remove some unnecessary excess (fan names?), argue relevance, and clean up the paragraph to fit NPOV, then perhaps we can include this info in the article. Otherwise, it should probably be in the Caustic article if anywhere. --buck 20:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I just did a little research into this thing and the best I can gather is that members of Caustic managed to get themselves thrown off the tour by dispersing promo flyers for a non-House of Blues venue at the House of Blues show in Cleveland, violating the venue's policy. See blogs here. I haven't seen anything about a "severe backlash" with booing fans and such, nor about security being overrun and fans being arrested. Perhaps we'll hear more about it later. Either way, it's not really worth a mention in the wikipedia article anyway. Peace. --buck 21:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph in question is a fabrication. Caustic was thrown off the tour for supposedly throwing flyers at an earlier show (Chicago maybe?). However, I was at the Cleveland show, and can say unequivocally that KMFDM did not leave the stage early, and they were not booed from the stage as this joker states. The dead giveaway that this was a farce should have been when he claimed some guy was arrested for peeing on Sascha's synth stand!

– 63.107.220.191 15:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was *one* flyer. They'd been distributed already by someone with no affiliation with Caustic. A live member of Caustic tossed *one* copy from a balcony to no one in particular, which was then traced back to Caustic. And for that they were banned from the tour. KMFDM was never booed off stage for any subsequent tour dates, nor has Eric Oehler ever peed on a synth stand, publicly or otherwise. – 64.73.12.253 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)

I certainly was never arrested for micturating on anything.--Nulldevice 03:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

I've been looking at some articles on other bands lately. Most of them have nifty infoboxes with color and the band's logo. I think we should format KMFDM's infobox as such. It would not be hard for someone to make a tumbler logo for the box. I also think we should remove that list of past members. They were really never members, but contributors. Esch, Schulz, Watts, Durante, and Rudolph Naomi are worth a mention though. - 76.181.10.197 00:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

How about restricting the Former Members section to En, Watts, Schulz and a couple more and setting up a "Contributors" section in the box to hold the rest ?

Tycobbuk 14:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps a 'Notable Past Members' section within the box - after all, 76.181.10.197 is right in that most of the listed members aren't truly significant figures in the band's history. Maybe a list of all the past members could be placed within the article itself. Also, with KMFDM having so many associated acts, I feel the 'Associated Acts' section of the new infobox requires either expansion or deletion. Perhaps the latter is more suitable, given that all side-projects and so forth have a separate section within the main article anyway. Jimeree 13:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a tough issue, really, because you can't very well imply that the majority of the contributors have been "insignificant". Now there have been quite a few musicians associated with KMFDM that have also had noteworthy accomplishments outside of the band. The trouble is, how do we define the criteria for inclusion? They had to have appeared on more than just one album? Been with the band for "x" number of years? Obviously En Esch, Gunter Shultz, and Raymond Watts would be included. But how about Tim Skold? Bill Rieflin? Mark Durante? --buck 15:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps that section of the infobox should just be removed, and a list of past members placed within the article. Could a timeline of member contributions similar to that found on the Pantera page be constructed? I suppose the difficulty is that there have been a lot more KMFDM contributors over the years. Jimeree 20:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that could be tough...I believe each album has a different lineup, as well as each tour. Why does Sascha have to make things so complicated? Why can't KMFDM be more like Green Day?  ;) --buck 02:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's have it this way. Current Members, notable past members. Let's just stick with Schulz, Esch, and Watts. Skold came rather late into the game, and Rieflin only contributed to a few albums. What da ya say? When I have some free time, I'm changing it. If no one likes it, revert that mofo _ Mandonine 21:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, though I'd say let's go ahead and include Skold and Rieflin. Skold's on three studio albums as well as MDFMK and is quite notable outside of KMFDM (Shotgun Messiah, Marilyn Manson). Rieflin's been appeared at least six studio albums and several tours, and he is a notable musician with bands (Ministry, RevCo, REM). So while they did show up later than the other guys (and regardless of our, uh, opinions of "the Skold years"), Skold and Rieflin have actually made some pretty substantial contributions to the Ultra Heavy Beat. Peace. --buck 22:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it's all edited out to the specifications we all agreed upon. After reading through the articles, I noticed it mentions most of the past contributors. Do we really need a list of a bunch of people who don't have articles to themselves? - Mandonine 04:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Discography Tables

I've added tables to the discography section as they appear on quite a few other bands' pages, and, at least in my opinion, look considerably better than a simple list. However, if they're annoying anyone, then I don't mind if they go. Jimeree 09:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it - Mandonine 21:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Remix List

I've noticed as of late that there's been a steady trickle of alleged remixes being added to the article in the form of one massive list... has anyone actually verified the validity of each entry in this list? Two entries stick out to me as being potential vandalism: Missing Persons - "Walking In LA" and A Flock Of Seagulls - "Space Age Love Song" (which, while both being fun little New Wave songs, hardly seem like the kind of music the band would remix). There really ought to be some sort of peer verification process before new entries are added to that list. Can anyone vouch for these two, or any of the other less obvious ones?
– 63.107.220.191 22:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'd do it, but I don't want to. :) To keep it simple though, why don't we just exclude anything that isn't mentioned on the KMFDM official website? Here's the list. However, it's also important to note that most of the current and past members of KMFDM are quite prolific in their musical output outside of the band, meaning some of these remixes may not actually be credited to KMFDM but to one particular member. In which case they don't belong in this article anyway. Personally, I vote to remove the whole list. It's on readily available on the website, so why not just refer people there rather than clog up the page? --buck 01:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the questionable entries pending a verifiable reference (Flock of Seagulls, Missing Persons, Bloodhound Gang). I also removed U2's "Mysterious Ways" because this isn't a remix--it's a cover version. I'm still in favor of doing away with this whole list anyway. --buck 16:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the whole list should be removed and a link to the remix list on the official page should be left in its stead, but I was the one who originally brought it up... it's just getting so long and in my opinion distracts from the meat of the article. I guess wait another day or two for someone to pipe up if they have a compelling argument to keep it before deleting it.

– 63.107.220.191 23:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with you on the deletion. Most sites would simply have the link to the official page. Therefore, in order to clean up the page bit, we should do the same. --Mfaith1 13:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

KMFDM has made a remix of bloodhound Gang ([http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Touch-Bloodhound-Gang/dp/B00002DDBN ref 1]), same for A Flock of Seagull (ref 2) and for Missing Persons ([http://www.amazon.com/Remixed-Hits-Missing-Persons/dp/B00000K072 ref 3]). So I add again this 3 remixes really made by KMFDM --82.224.198.154 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well we're back at square one. We all know that Sascha & Co. have contributed much to the world of electronic music. KMFDM/Sascha has dozens, if not hundreds, of remixes to their credit, but at what point does listing all these remixes go from encyclopedic information to reverberating what's on the KMFDM website and simply bombarding the reader with every little factoid relating to KMFDM? I still move to either delete the list entirely or else set up a separate article for a KMFDM discography and include the list there. Take a look at the Nine Inch Nails discography. It's completely separate from the NIN article and includes not just LPs and singles, but live albums, EPs, soundtracks, bootlegs, and remixes for other artists (even KMFDM!). And all this for Nine Inch Nails! A KMFDM discography would be ten times as long! Why try to cram it all into the article? C'mon, let's do our part for the Ultra Heavy Beat! --buck 21:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely. As prolific as KMFDM has been over the years, consistently releasing album after album, their library of content is certainly worthy of a separate article. I say, let's go for it.–m.f ^{(t • c)} 02:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've started a discography here. I've left the information in the KMFDM article until I (or someone else) can complete the discography, since I don't have time right now to add the singles, EPs, sountracks, videos, and remixes. Let me know what you think, and how we can improve it! Peace. --buck 16:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks great so far. If I have some time today, I will try to complete it. Otherwise, great work!–m.f ^{(t • c)} 16:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed images...

This Betacommand person has been going through and removing album cover images from the various articles and tagging them for deletion... so far he/she has hit 84-86 and Adios. His/her rationale is that the album cover fair use template is not enough to justify fair use. R_Calvete was the original uploader of 84-86.jpg, and I'm pretty sure he took the photograph himself. Unfortunately, I don't think he's been around lately to update the source information. Can somebody try to contact him? From the link on his user page, it looks like his email address might be <removed to avoid spider spam>. It would be a shame if the image was lost because of overzealous deletion tagging.

The Adios cover (Adios_album_cover.jpg) was uploaded by Scraggy4, but it looks like they are actually still active, so maybe someone can leave a message for them requesting an update on the source information (this one's not quite as urgent because we can get a new copy of the image from Amazon if necessary, whereas the 84-86 one was homemade, and the album itself is not widely commercially available).
– 63.107.220.191 15:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of name translations

Does anyone know where I can get translations of KMFDM songs (short of running lyrics through a bad translator)? I can't find them anywhere..:Stirb Nicht Vor Mir:. 05:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Resurgence of problems with name changing

It's funny how we didn't have a problem with people changing "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" to "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit" for over a year, but ever since the 84-86 cover was deleted just over a month ago, the name change problem has cropped up again at least two times. Would someone with an account be able to re-upload the 84-86 cover? The original version is still available at answers.com (it's actually the original version that was on wikipedia, since that's where answers.com got it from). Sooner would be better than later, since who knows how frequently answers.com updates their copy of material from wikipedia, and if we miss it, it could be gone forever. Just make sure to add proper fair use rationale so it doesn't get deleted again. The image was originally created by wikipedia user R_Calvete.
– 67.43.92.191 14:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's just my browser, but it appears answers.com might block direct linkage to image pages from non-answers.com sources, so to get to the image go to the main answers.com article page, scroll down to the wikipedia section, and click on the 84-86 cover to get to the full-res image page I mentioned earlier.
– 67.43.92.191 14:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I got it up, and here's the image page. If you please, could you (or someone) check it out and verify the info? I tried to stick with the fair use criteria using other KMFDM album covers that are still up as a reference point, plus I included a paragraph describing its importance in the KMFDM name situation. Also, I don't have time to add it to the 84-86 article and the discography. Thanks! Peace. --buck 01:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I restored it in the other locations, so we should be all set. Hopefully this will re-stop the name changes from happening.
– 67.43.92.191 13:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

KMFDM template

Hey, guys. I just created a KMFDM template for inclusion on KMFDM-related pages. It's just a first attempt, so please edit it however you see fit. Cheers! -- rynne 02:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge MDFMK into KMFDM?

I am suggesting we merge the MDFMK article into the KMFDM article. MDFMK was a short-lived project featuring prominent members of the previous incarnation of KMFDM, and when KMFDM reformed the following year, all three MDFMK members rejoined KMFDM. Other side projects such as Excessive Force and KGC involved members not otherwise associated with KMFDM, or, at least in the case of Excessive Force, resulted in more than one album. I think the information from the MDFMK article would fit nicely in its own section within the KMFDM article (in fact, the article already has the basis for this section here). Not long after MDFMK's dissolution, Sascha Konietzko hinted at the possibility recording new material as MDFMK, however, since Lucia Cifarelli is now a central member of KMFDM and Tim Skold has left KMFDM to work with Marilyn Manson, the possibility of a future MDFMK project appears slim at best. This is mere speculation of course, and KMFDM has been known to throw curveballs. :) So if and when Sascha produces new MDFMK material, then there will be enough independent history to warrant a separate article, but until then, I think it belongs most appropriately in its own section of the KMFDM article. Agree/disagree? Peace. --buck 21:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be merged. MDFMK are not going to reform, KMFDM are as active as can be. MDFMK is basically the un-official KMFDM album between Adios and Attak. JayjayAbnormal 02:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing I'd like to add is that MDFMK is simply the KMFDM name backwards. Blatently obvious, yes, but that further exemplifies the idea that the MFDMK project was intended to have a direct correlation with KMFDM (unlike side-projects like Excessive Force and KGC). Perhaps it was intended as an extention of KMFDM, or even a (temporary) replacement. There was an interview with Sascha during the publicity for ATTAK in which he said that he decided to regroup KMFDM, in part, at the request of fans who pointed that it was essentially the same band anyway. I wish I could dig up that interview... --buck 20:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but I have to disagree, MDFMK is not KMFDM. the sound is different (though you might say that not every KMFDM album sounds the same), the look is different (no black frame around the album picture, heck it's not even a drawing (not even by Brute! though he didn't do Nihil either)) and the band wore odd looking costumes on stage. There's also the fact that KMFDM is/was under contract for Universal (not Waxtrax or Metropolis) and Sascha apparantly doesn't have the rights yet (otherwhise he would/could (re)release unreleased songs, like 'Missing Time'). I btw read that the Kapt'n said he was asked to rejoin by Metropolis. He also said he asked En Esch and that other guy back (with regrouping) which would also point to MDFMK being a side project. and then there's offcourse the fact that the band name for their only selftitled album is MDFMK and not KMFDM. the only mention of KMFDM is that is that the album is published by kmfdm,inc. and aslong as Sacha K. doesn't re-releases this album under the bandname KMFDM it's still made by MDFMK. also; KGC is made by 2/3rd KMFDM just like MDFMK at the time (Sascha and Skold; who is btw not a member anymore, but Lucia was not a member). And the activeness of kmfdm is irrelevant, they made their KGC album while still maintaining their one release a year policy. I btw think I also read that Sascha doesn't exclude a reunion, which would then again become just like KGC; 2 KMFDM members (sascha/Lucia) and Tim Skold (who's now a member of Manson's gang, though I wish he's leave that transvestite and come back to the Kapt'n). btw another point maybe; do they play MDFMK songs live? Not when I was there. so maybe that's an indication? but then again I also dissagree on the fact that everybody sees the books/movies 'the running man' and 'thinner' as written by Stephen King while he wrote it under the name Richard Bachman. anywho, just leave it be. on the other hand, who cares I know them already anyway :D . btw: I've heard the Kapt'n is also involved here on wiki so maybe he can give the definitive answer. KMFDM SUCKS!!!!! greetz, --Evil Flip-- august 15th 2007 PS ToHuVaBoHu will be kick ass!!

Good Article Review

Hello,

I have completed the review of this article and decided to quick-fail it. A full review has not been undertaken at this time.

The primary reasons for this quick-fail are: Lack of references and image problems.

For example, the main image close to the top of the page is currently tagged for deletion. And the mutliple sections of this article contain no references at all. I'd suggest checking out WP:Verifiability and WP:CITE for some assistance on bringing this up to scratch.

Thanks for your work so far, and if you feel my error has been in review, you can choose to take it to a good article review. I am also contactable on my talk page. Pursey ^{Talk | Contribs} 06:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Self-reference

I think it is worth pointing out that one of KMFDM's recurring lyrical themes includes self-reference.

Examples include:

• _Light_ "KMFDM / doing it again / a treat for the freaks / truth or dare?";
• _Megalomaniac_ "KMFDM / better than the best / megalomaniacal / and harder than the rest." Wilymage 03:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned in the "Musical style" section, albeit briefly. Feel free to expand it--however, I'd advise against listing every song where KMFDM sends a shout-out to themselves, since there are over a dozen or so such songs, and it really isn't the stuff of an encyclopedia. Peace. --buck 15:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Gotta love shameless self-promotion... wilymage 23:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's just one of many reasons why I love KMFDM. Peace. --buck 13:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Simply to add to the inclusion of their name in lyrics, they had that Introduction song at the end of one of their albums, WWIII I think it was... just thought I would throw that out there for some humor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.190.11 (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversy section

I made some edits to the recent addtions to the Controversy section to condense the New Life shooting and the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) shooting paragraphs into one item since they reference the same source and they are part of the same string of events. They appeared to be intentionally redundant.. I also noticed that the same user who added these also added the section on Jokela school shootings, and these are the only additions ever from that IP. Which brings me to my question, are there guidelines for what is considered controversy? Wikipedia says, "A controversy or dispute is a matter of opinion over which parties actively disagree, argue, or debate. Controversies can range in size from private disputes between two individuals to large-scale disagreements between societies."

By that logic, should these sections simply be removed or moved elsewhere? Vizzini101 (talk) 04:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently every nut job with a gun has a copy of Symbols laying around, yet fails to grasp the meaning of the lyrics. Anyway, I was wondering myself about if there is even any "controversy" in the KMFDM connection to the most recent shootings (Jokela and Colorado churches). The only [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59148 source] for the church shootings comes from WorldNetDaily's impeccable journalism (note the sarcasm). Heck, they even got the band's name wrong (KMRDM?). I think this is yet another clear case of the post-Columbine backlash. KMFDM (unwarrentedly) became scapegoat superstars after the whole Columbine thing, and with these recent shootings, any mention of KMFDM will bring the whole thing full circle--even though KMFDM's music was a tiny snippet of the killers' respective musical tastes. The church gunman even name-checks Marilyn Manson in the WND article, but the shootings aren't even mentioned in the Manson page. For one to say "the killers liked KMFDM, so KMFDM is controversial", we would have to apply that logic to every other similarity ("the killers wore black t-shirts, so black t-shirts are controversial", "the killers had guns...", "the killers were teenagers...", "the killers all lived in Colorado..." etc). All of this is, of course, my POV so I'm not going to remove the mention of the church shootings, but I do think it's kind of a stretch to label it as a controversy alongside Columbine, if they even warrant a mention at all. At least with Columbine, KMFDM recieved considerable media coverage. The "KMFDM connection" to these later shootings seem to be the work of individuals creating a controversy where there is none. --buck (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you chime in here, Buck. You've done alot of work on this article. I to looked at the Manson article and the one on WND. I cringed to use that citation, given the source.. Ok so my vote is to take it out or find some more neutral references at the least. You've made some good points. My thought is that any detail that hasn't had a considerable amount of news coverage and/or isn't disputed by the subject of the article doesn't really qualify as controversy. Wikipedia is not meant to be fully exhaustive in it's representation of details, regardless of how minute. Besides, it's pretty clear given the other sources that I have reviewed about the recent Youth With A Mission (YWAM) incident that the perp was in at least in some ways mimicing Eric Harris. Of course, I to am a fan and I hate seeing this stuff for the reasons that you mentioned, so it's hard for me to keep a neutral point of view... Vizzini101 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words Vizzini101. :) I think you hit the nail on the head; this article doesn't need to reference every minor blurb in which KMFDM's name comes up. Yeah, we do risk crossing the line into POV if we fail to include the negative with the positive, but your point is valid--it's hardly controversial if it receives little-to-no media mention. Likewise, it takes more than a couple people getting offended at something to make it controversial, at least significantly enough to place in an encyclopedia. I don't want to remove anything--"good" or "bad"--from this article as a means of slanting it towards a particular point of view, but since WND is not necessarily a reliable source (as I mentioned before, they didn't even spell "KMFDM" correctly) and we have yet to come up with another independent source that illustrates a possible "connection" between KMFDM's music and the church shootings, the section as-is may be a violation of NOR. So I'm going to go ahead an remove it, but archive the text here. --buck (talk) 16:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the following paragraph from the "Controversy" section for reasons mentioned above:

A shooting at a Arvada missionary training facility, the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) center, killed at least two people and wounded two others in Arvada, Colorado, United States. The gunman, Matthew J. Murray, went in to the building early Sunday morning December 9, 2007, and opened fire. Twelve hours later, Murry was killed by a security guard after opening fire and killing two at New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Murray had made serveral internet posts regarding the shootings. The last paragraph of one such posting quotes lyrics from the KMFDM song "Anarchy".

We may decide to remove the paragraph about the Jokela school shootings for similar reasons. The problem is, however, the only source provided (here) is in Finnish so I can't verify it. Maybe someone can help? --buck (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing controversial about KMFDM being a "favorite band" of the shooter in the case of the Kauhajoki School shootings----no one has suggested there is any connection other than the editor that added that section. If this is, indeed, a fitting addition to the "controversy" section, then we have a lot of sections to add to a lot of bands and singers. Unless the author (or anyone else) can provide a good reason why this is pertinent information that actually adds to the article (instead of just adding speculation and faux "controversy") then please let us know here on the discussion page. Otherwise, I will be deleting this addition in 2 weeks. Vizzini101 (talk) 22:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you addressed this so quickly Vizzini101. Again, you've pointed out the problem directly--for a criminal to simply say "my favorite band is X" is not the grounds for connecting the band with the crime. It differs from the Columbine in that KMFDM received major media attention and Sascha Konietzko himself issued a statement the following day. So far, no one other than one or two Wikipedia editors have found a "connection" between KMFDM and the Kauhajoki shooting, and as near as I can tell, it has not been mentioned elsewhere. The same goes for the Jokela shooting. Waiting two weeks before pulling the information is good form--giving the editor the benefit of the the doubt--however, I think it should be pulled now. See, if a "connection" isn't verified in any reliable source, it doesn't warrant a mention in the Wiki article. I'm going to remove the sections on both the Jokela and the Kauhajoki shootings and archive them here, and if information later becomes available that makes them worthy of a mention, we can add them back. There's a burden of proof to be lifted before the this article should have the school shootings included.

Jokela School shootings

On November 7, 2007, nine individuals (six pupils, the school principal, school nurse, and the gunman) died at the Jokela school shooting in Tuusula, Finland. Prior to the rampage, shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen posted a video on YouTube titled "Jokela High School Massacre 11/7/2007", which used KMFDM's song "Stray Bullet" from the 1997 album Symbols as background music. (http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Lukiolaismies+j%C3%A4tti+verkkoon+runsaasti+tietoa+tulevasta+hy%C3%B6kk%C3%A4yksest%C3%A4/1135231616169)

Kauhajoki School shootings

The Kauhajoki shooting incident was a school shooting that occurred on 23 September 2008, at a vocational college in Kauhajoki in the province of Southern Ostrobothnia in Western Finland. The gunman, 22-year-old student Matti Juhani Saari, killed ten students with a semi-automatic pistol, before shooting himself in the head. He died a few hours later in a Tampere hospital. His IRC-Galleria profile mentioned KMFDM as one of his favorite bands. (http://pulshu2.no-ip.com/images/wumpscut.jpg%7Ctitle=IRC-Galleria)

Peace. buck (talk) 14:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

---

I totally agree that the text that had previously been added about the Finnish shootings — simply summarizing the events in excessive detail (at least for this article) — was out of place and unwarranted in this article. However, the topic itself was not completely irrelevant, and Konietzko actually recorded a 4+ minute statement for a Norwegian broadcaster in the wake of the most recent shooting (a great clip for the insight it provides to his thinking on the subject, and also confirms this type of thing was the inspiration for the MDFMK song "Witch Hunt"). As such, I've re-added only the relevant parts of the original information — that the media pointed out that both shooters liked KMFDM — along with a pertinent quote from the NRK interview. I took some time to transcribe below the text of the recording (exactly as it was spoken)... in the quote I pulled for the page, I cleaned up all the conversational interjections (ums, ahs, kind ofs, sort ofs, false starts, word repetitions, etc.), as they are unnecessary to the meaning of what he is actually saying:

Sascha Konietzko om skolemassakrene
NRK - Norsk Rikskringkasting
http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/418313

[0:00]
Obviously the, ah, Columbine killers were fans of KMFDM, and ah, I think one of them even wore a KMFDM hat while this whole thing went down, um, but, you know, the only linkage that ever happened was, the media tried to find a scapegoat back in '99 and, once again, tried to twist the story into the direction that, ah, music and games and, you know, books, and all kinds of influences from, uh, everyday life -- entertainment and art -- can actually turn people into killers, which is, of course, utter nonsense. Um, what really happened in my world at the time was, on the day of the Columbine shooting, my manager called me up and he said, "Get in front of the TV, it's really strange, I see your face on there, and uh, something has happened somewhere in a school" So I, you know, at some point I put myself in front of a TV, and I saw my own face on there, and I was like "What the hell is going on?" And, the story kind of unfolded, and it turned out that these... the two killers were fans of the band, and they had a website where they quoted, ah, random lines from songs, just anything that kind of made sense in their weird manifesto, and ah, the media, of course, they picked up on really strange things, they... they always said "well, KMFDM has a song called, ah, Stray Bullet"... what nobody ever sort of found out, was... what... you know, needed to point out, was that the second line of the song is, you know, "Stray bullet from the barrel of love". So [laughter] it was really... it was very bizarre, I mean, it was a very American experience, I thought, at the time... um, this... this total witch hunt, and everybody tried to get in touch with me or with any members of KMFDM, tried to get a face on the screen, um, and then, you know, basically find someone to pick apart and... and blame for this whole thing.

[1:51]
I was basically sitting in a cold apartment, and then someone said "uh, there was another school shooting and uh, you know, you were... you were sort of quoted in some of the media reports about it again." And I was like "Oh no, there we go...", you know, this is what I feared the first time around, because there is this very strange phenomenon, that, um, you know, copycatting. Um... it's just really bizarre, I mean, someone commits a heinous... heinous crime or... or an act... an atrocity or something, and then there will be people that think it's the coolest thing, and... and they repeat it, and of course, you know, then they... they use the same imagery, the same kind of thing, and, I was just reading this morning... um... uh ah, an article in a German magazine here, in Der Spiegel, on their website, and there were pictures of... the... yesterday's shooter and the one from last year, and they were friends actually, and they posed in the exact same kind of ways and fashions, so it was really bizarre, it's really disturbing I think.

[2:51]
You know, I personally know a large part of my fan base, I mean, when I tour the United States, there's so many people that I've talked to before, that I know, and um, you know, I rarely run into these people that sort of behave like the lone wolf types, you know what I mean? Um, and that's, I think that's... that's the exception of the norm really. I mean, most kids are cool, and ah, you know, would not, sort of burn their fuses like this.

[3:21]
The song "Witch Hunt" by my project MDFMK was, you know, directly a reaction to this whole Columbine thing that happened in ah 1999. That song was written just, like, a few weeks after that. I mean, what are you gonna do, you know? We run this, ah, pretty big MySpace operation, the KMFDM site on MySpace, and according to my web guys, there's ah, you know, every... every once in a while, there's someone that ah, you know, has either an obvious name, like one of the Columbine killers that wants to be a KMFDM friend on MySpace or something like that, and of course, you know, we filter that kind of stuff out. You just never know what... you know, how people turn, I mean, it... it's really frightening and... and strange.

[4:05]
The most important kind of aspect of this is that it is a copycat, ah, phenomenon. So, these kids in... back in Columbine that massacred their school, they were fans of this type of music or this type of clothing, and ah, so the people that sort of do similar things now, they like this kind of music not because they like the music, but because they liked the music.

–67.43.92.191 (talk) 23:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for adding that. I was not aware that Konietzko discussed this issue at length--by all means, it's a relevant addition to the article. --buck (talk) 18:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

MDFMK citation

In the 'Break-up, MDFMK, and reforming' section, it says there is citation needed. Well, I have the proof it happened in the form of a radio interview mp3. But the problem is, I have no idea how to go about sharing with Wikipedia.

...And does it matter that I don't own any copyrights? Googoie (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If you know who the interviewer is and/or it was performed as part of a named/published show, there is a template that can be used for citing interviews: Template:Cite interview. You don't need to upload the file itself, but if you can find a link to it on the internet that you can reference in the citation, that's all the better.
–207.180.187.8 (talk) 04:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

KMFDM SUCKS!

Should we have a separate section discussing KMFDM's several slogans? --KMFDM Fan (talk) 17:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Former Members

I'm just curious what the criteria are for listing former members in the top box of the page. The major ones like Watts, Esch, Schulz, Reiflin, and Skold make sense, but I'm wondering what makes other former members worthy of being on that list. Durante didn't really contribute all that much, while Rudolph Naomi was on two full albums. Ton Geist? Why is he on that list? Also, what about female singers, e.g. Dorona Alberti? She was on about half a dozen albums and many singles. Should she be on that list? I say either expand the list to include other former members, maybe, say, anyone that has every been on more than one release, or trim it down to include only the biggest, most important contributors, namely the big five I mentioned. Torchiest (talk) 07:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Organizing history

I think a large portion of this page needs to be re-written. A lot of other band pages have a true timeline of the band's history, with subsections for different eras. Meanwhile, the KMFDM page is kind of a rag tag assortment of band info, history, trivia, and unencyclopedic ramblings. I think we should re-organize it into a true history. We could easily do a number of subsections for different eras, perhaps leaving some thin, but filling out details as we learn them. Something like:

1. Band formation
2. Early days in Germany
3. Wax Trax era
4. After Wax Trax bankruptcy/TVT Days
5. Break-up
6. Reformation
7. Re-issues era
8. KFMDM Records

Obviously, these names aren't perfect, but I think it would be better to get a chronological organization of things instead of having different information scattered about.206.180.38.20 (talk) 21:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Industrial rock or metal?

I noticed that on other pages, KMFDM is listed as Industrial Metal. It's even listed that way on the Industrial Rock page itself! Should we change the listing at the top of this page to reflect that? 206.180.38.20 (talk) 19:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Give it the same ref that it has on the Industrial Metal page. (For the record, I 100% disagree that this is industrial metal, but it's sourced, so go for it) MrMoustacheMM (talk) 01:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I changed it. Just out of curiosity, what genre do you think they should be in? I believe I read somewhere that Sascha considers it to be techno metal, or dance metal, or something like that. 206.180.38.20 (talk) 17:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. Sascha claims "Ultra Heavy Beat", but "industrial rock" (or just "industrial") sounds better to me. I just have a hard time coming up with even an album's worth of their material that could be considered "metal". MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Industrial Metal

I am skeptical with regards to this article referring to KMFDM as an industrial metal band. I feel "Post-Industrial" would cover it (as with PIG) as the band uses many styles and metal aspects are only a very small part of the music. Thoughts? Floydiac (talk) 19:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Industrial metal is used because there is a source for that genre in the Musical style section of the article. Check the industrial metal article out for a few more sources calling KMFDM industrial metal. I don't really care one way or the other, but if you want to change it, you'll need some good sources. —Torchiest ^talk/_contribs 19:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Torchiest is right, unless there's some good sources specifically saying they aren't industrial metal, the sourced material stands. I personally disagree with "Industrial Metal", as I feel that label more appropriately describes bands like Godflesh, but it's sourced, so it stays. However, if someone finds reliable sources stating they are also "post-industrial" (whatever that is), I would think that could also be added to the page. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 05:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I would like to hear some opinions about someone addeding hardcore to the genre list. My vote is to remove this. I understand that KMFDM may attract listeners of different varieties, but never in my life have I ever heard of KMFDM being referred to as hardcore techno. I am not a fan of people playing the name game with genre's (seems like a 2000's phenomenon), especially when KMFDM does not appear on the hardcore page. You might as well add Funk-Techno, Industrial Grindcore, Techno Punk, Afro-Jazz-Industrial-Metal-Rock. Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with removing it. It seems borderline, but if a band like Lords of Acid is counted in that genre, I can see how KMFDM might occasionally slip into that genre too. But like I said, if everyone else wants to remove it, I'll agree to it. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 01:22, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing about KMFDM sounds anything like fast punk from the early 80s, so I agree with removing "hardcore". "Hardcore techno" is uncited, and should be removed unless a source can be found. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 04:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why it's linked as hardcore when it actually goes to hardcore techno. Interestingly, I did find a mention of the latter [[http://www.amazon.com/ATTAK-Kmfdm/product-reviews/B00005YW67?pageNumber=2 here]]. It's Ilker Yükel's review. I know it's just Amazon, but he is an official editor at ReGen Magazine now, and he both writes reviews and has interviewed KMFDM many times. Probably wouldn't quite pass the WP:RS test as is, but still, might be another review from him somewhere. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 12:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Just something based off that last edit/revert, I wonder if the lead should just call them industrial as opposed to industrial metal. Three genres are all given in the infobox, and the common denominator is "industrial", while only one mentions "metal". I still agree with keeping "industrial metal" in the infobox, as it is sourced. Thoughts? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 05:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Check out Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and Nine Inch Nails. Also see Weezer and Metallica. They all have multiple genres in the box, but are still more specific in the article itself. I dunno, I don't like getting into genre war nonsense, and I'd like to stick to sourced stuff in case someone does an article review on its good article status, but I'm not that intense on it. I'm sure there must be some sources saying just industrial out there somewhere. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 10:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, industrial IS sourced (in three different ways), so it wouldn't be an unsourced genre, it's just generalizing all three given genres (and describes the band as a whole, instead of just parts of their career). Later on in the article KMFDM's various styles are mentioned in greater detail, which makes sense: the lead should summarize, and the body should expand. If you really need a source for "industrial" on its own, [3] lists it as the first genre, although I don't think this is necessary. (Also, this isn't a genre war, this is attempting to improve the article by making the lead more general, and allowing the body to fill in the specifics). MrMoustacheMM (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm gonna go ahead and make that change. Again, reason being that the lead should summarize, and the body should expand on that. I'll add in the allmusic reference for "industrial" on its own, although I don't think it's actually necessary to have this. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's fine. Forgot to comment on this before. I remember thinking I'd used a reference for the Sascha Konietzko page that actually could be used to source industrial, I think. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 17:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not Industrial (and Allmusic is the last piece of crap). First at all, it's Post-industrial and far far away from traditional Industial music. KMFDM was influenced by Funk music and other stuff. But primarily, it is a blend of 1980s electronic music (EBM, Electro-industrial, maybe some Disco or House influences, sampler/sequencer music) and sampled or "live played" punky funky thrash guitars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.28.111 (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you finally started a discussion. I have reverted your last changes until consensus has been reached (which may or may not result in changes to the article).

According to the sources given, KMFDM has performed assorted styles of music over their career, including "industrial music". Allmusic is considered a reliable source, and using it as a source for the genre is perfectly acceptable on Wikipedia. Your assertion that "Allmusic is the last piece of crap" doesn't agree with its general acceptance on Wikipedia, and you give no examples of why it should be disregarded.

Your other points given above have no sources backing them up. On Wikipedia, we report what reliable sources say, not our own opinions. Can you provide a source stating that KMFDM is "far far away from traditional Industrial music"? Can you provide any sources supporting your other statements above?

Another thing you may be unaware of is the purpose of the lead section of an article. It is to summarize and condense the information given in the article. The article supports "industrial music", along with "industrial metal", and even "industrial-alternative-electronic-crossover-rock and danceabilly" (although that last one is hardly a genre that should be listed in the lead!). A summarization of all these points (along with other points given in the article mentioning "KMFDM" and "industrial" together) can best be done by using the blanket term "industrial" (which, again, is supported)

If you'd like to re-introduce your second source supporting "industrial metal", please go ahead, but without the corresponding lead change. As for other changes, such as changing the lead, please provide sources stating the band is not "industrial", and we can weigh their views against the sources already given in the article. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 20:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Here are sources:

Allmusic, specifically for industrial: "KMFDM was one of Wax Trax's first industrial superstars..."

CMJ: "Pioneering industrial rock group KMFDM..."

Billboard: "...techno-industrial act KMFDM..."

That spread of terminology is why we settled on industrial in the lead. I think more details could be added to the musical style section with these sources though, actually. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 01:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I see, Americans wrote the article... If they say "Industrial", they mean Pop and Dance music. That's the reason why en:Wikipedia will never be an acceptable encyclopaedia. And no. Industrial is not a generic term for everybody's shit. Industrial died in 1981 with the split of Throbbing Gristle. But... What do you know, Allmusicerica? --94.134.14.134 (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I find your insults unpersuasive. If you don't have anything productive to say about the subject, then I guess we're done here. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 14:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, I'm Canadian, not American. But thanks for trying. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I forgot. Canadians aren't North Americans. They came from outer space. Seriously, it's useless to discuss with US-American/Canadian people about Industrial music. Over there, every Pop shit is Industrial. And every Pop shit is sourced as Industrial. So what chances do I have? None. --94.134.14.134 (talk) 23:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Zilch?

An anonymous IP address added Zilch to the discography, but I haven't seen or heard anything about it. Was this just random vandalism, or does anyone else know anything about it? —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 02:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Haven't heard anything about this. We know there is a new album in the works, but whether it was vandalism or someone with some insider information, I think the right thing to do is to keep information like that off of here unless there is something firm from the band or the record company. Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 03:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a new article in Terrorizer Magazine (actually the industrial insert "Dominion"). I just bought this issue, so I'll add info and cite it. If someone wants to fix up my citation format (it's probably wrong), that'd be great. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 04:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that cite, Torchiest. Is it worth adding that two of the guests on the new album are Bill Rieflin and Koichi Fukuda (mentioned in that new article)? I don't really care either way, but if someone wants to add that, it was confirmed by that Terrorizer/Dominion article. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I saw that at uhb, and I debated adding it. I could see adding Rieflin, since he's been a big part of the band on and off for years, but Koichi, eh, not so sure. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 02:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

(undent) So there's a new interview calling the new album "WTF?!", which is newer than that Terrorizer insert article, so I've added a ref for that and undid ClueBot's reversion of an IP adding that album title (as well as fixed the title in the article). This seems like another FUBAR/Hau Ruck instance, so I'm inclined to go with the newer interview for the correct info. Of course, whenever KMFDM comes out with a press release regarding the new album, we can (if necessary) update the info again. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 18:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Abby Travis

Someone added Abby Travis to the list of former members. She was a guest musician on one album in the studio. I think a distinction should be made between guest musicians/vocalists and solid members (contributed to studio and live shows for an extended period of time, or are important - such as founding members). All of the former members listed, besides Abby Travis, are solid. I think we should create a section for guest musicians and move Abby there. There are plenty guest artists that fall into the same contribution category as Abby - enough to populate this new section. Thoughts? Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 23:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree, she shouldn't be on that list at the top. We have a members section, and I'm surprised she's not already there. She should definitely be added to that section.

While we're on the subject, I don't think Udo Sturm should be on the list either. While he was a founding member of the project, he was not a musician and never contributed anything to the sound, which is the important part for a band. I'm on the fence about Jr. Blackmale, although I suppose he was on three releases and would pass muster. My problem with that is, should we then include any female vocalists who have been on more than one album? That list could get out of control. I wonder if there's some standard for band members in the infobox. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 00:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree in removing Udo and Jr. Blackmale. I'm actually indifferent about Jr. Blackmale. I have some early KMFDM photos with Jr. Blackmale, and I have read interviews where Sascha talked about Jr. Blackmale as a member and other interviews where he has talked about him like a guest. If you feel he should be removed, then go ahead. Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 02:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with removing those two. They're important, but not to the point of being main members. Also, agree that Abby should not be listed as a main member either. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 04:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that Jr. Blackmale be added to the "Other Contributors" list, he was around enough to be a "main" contributor, without being an important former member. Thoughts? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 03:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about adding him to the other contributors list. The reason is, and this could just be my interpretation, but it's based on what I've seen elsewhere, we're specifically referring to the other artists as notable because they have wikipedia pages. Someone that doesn't have a page isn't notable. That could be a circular definition, I suppose. Perhaps Blackmale is worthy of his own page, although information on him is slim as far as I know. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 10:31, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think their own wikipedia page is necessary for them to be notable in the context of being a contributor of KMFDM (if it was necessary, then why would John DeSalvo be listed, he doesn't have his own page). We're not listing everyone that has ever been in the band, but he contributed writing and performance to enough of their material that he is important enough to mention. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with MrMoustache. Having or not having a Wikipedia page doesn't determine a person's notability. Wikipedia isn't the end-all be-all of information. Incredibly Obese Black Man (talk) 16:19, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

What is the line for trivial information?

I thought I'd start up a discussion, because of a few events that have occurred in the past couple months. Originally, we'd added information about the "Godlike 2010" release, but after the announcement of "Light 2010" and the "Krank" single, I thought perhaps we could be getting too detailed if we started mentioning every single event that occurs, so I pulled the Godlike 2010 information instead of adding more.

I noticed that an IP editor added some information about the website changing, with the new "Rebels in Control" song on the front page. I'd also been considering adding something about Sascha posting a few things about supporting Julian Assange by stopping all media action for a few days, but I'm not sure if that's pertinent enough to this article. I'd like some opinions on how much detail we should be including. —Torchiest ^talk/_edits 17:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Akzfpxqqhldfe

--CactusBot (talk) 10:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Assorted questions/thoughts/suggestions

Organised in order of appearance in the article, except any reference issues I put at the end. I figured this is a better idea then putting a bunch of [citation needed] and [says who] tags throughout the article (which was my original plan, but discussion is usually preferable to edit wars and the like).

Industrial metal

• I still question having "industrial metal" in the lead (and I notice that just happened to change without any new discussion, by the way). The band wasn't anything near industrial metal for, what, the first 10 years of their existence? They have also had plenty of non-metal material since. Since the infobox shows that they have been described as also being "industrial rock" and "EBM" (which according to the EBM page, is partially formed by industrial music), and WP:MOSBEGIN says the first paragraph should not be "overly specific", I still think having "industrial" on its own is better: it summarizes their entire career, not certain portions of it. While I think the original source I provided was just fine, if necessary I can go source-hunting and bring back several more stating that KMFDM are "industrial" (although I still don't think this is necessary).
  • I mainly did that because I'm paranoid about getting called for the sources not supporting what the article says. The allmusic source calls them "industrial alt-metal" in the text of the biography, and the Di Perna calls them industrial metal. I honestly don't care, and maybe we really don't need a source for something like that. Citations in the lead are frowned upon anyway. That's why I generally don't mess with genre warring in the infoboxes, if I can avoid it. But I'm totally open to any other way to do this. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 00:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Lead

• I think the lead does not fully summarize the article (there are whole sections of the article with no mention in the lead whatsoever), and so it needs to be expanded by several more sentences. Right now, the inclusion of the sentence about the shootings seems to give it too much emphasis compared to other info that seems as (or more) important: mentioning some of the major members from over the years (En, Gunter, Raymond, maybe Skold, and maybe mentioning the current 7-year stable line-up), perhaps a couple sentences about their musical style (perhaps here mention can be made of the main genres "industrial metal", "industrial rock" and "EBM"), maybe a mention of the various moves (Germany>Chicago>Seattle>Germany), a mention of their fan involvement (Horde, FanKam, FanPhone, being friendly and approachable at shows), maybe a mention of the re-releasing of the entire back catalogue through remastered albums and the Extras, a definition of "KMFDM" (Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid), a mention of Brute!, the 5-letter code, and possibly more. I'll take a stab at making a more complete summary of the article for the lead, and post it here later tonight or tomorrow.
  • I completely agree. I've been unhappy with the lead ever since the GA nomination process. It's never felt meaty enough to me, but I've been stumped on how to properly expand it. Definitely go for writing up more stuff for it. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 00:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Citations

• Success in America - After arriving in America for the first time on December 16, 1989,[9] KMFDM toured the U.S. with Ministry in 1990 in support of their fourth album, UAIOE,[5] which was licensed for distribution in both the U.S. and Europe.

I don't know that we need the last part (in bold). Is that notable? Is there a citation for it?

I think it's notable because it was part of their transition from Europe to the U.S., as it was, I think, the first album to be distributed in the U.S. I think it's mentioned either on the band's history page or in the liner notes of an album somewhere. I'll have to look. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 01:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Liebeslied" copyright infringement - (the modified name is a wordplay in German: Liebeslied means "love song", while Leibesleid means "physical pain").

- Consequently, the original release of Naïve has become highly collectible among KMFDM fans.

I think both of these sentences needs a citation: the first, because who says that it's a wordplay? How is that a wordplay?; and the second, who says that it's highly collectable? Has there been a newspiece about how much the original goes for, or how desirable it is? (Note: I don't disagree with either sentence, I just think they need cites)

Yeah, I was trying to find a source for the collectible description today, but had no luck, other than ebay auctions, which we obviously can use to cite anything. We'll probably have to end up pulling that part. As for the wordplay description, doesn't the definition of wordplay involve the use of puns or switching around of letters and meaning? Not sure if that part needs a source, since I don't think it's really a controversial statement. Unless you're challenging it? ;) —Torchiest ^talk_edits 01:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Rewording

• The era of guest artists

I'm not a fan of this heading, since they've had assorted one-off/occasional artists since the early albums (Morgan Adjei, Sigrid Meyer, Paul Barker, Johann Bley, William Tucker, Bruce Breckenfeld, and Bill Rieflin, who was at that time a one-off guest, until he reappeared for Nihil). I'm not sure of a good alternative, maybe "Continuing success"? Something to think about, anyway.

• Back in Germany - Konietzko has said that he and Skold have begun work on a follow-up to 2009's Skold vs. KMFDM release,

This seems to be worded kind of like we should already know that Skold vs. KMFDM had been released. How about this for the first paragraph of that subsection (old stuff italicized, new stuff not):

In 2008, Sascha Konietzko and Lucia Cifarelli moved to Hamburg, Germany.[43] On February 24, 2009, KMFDM Records released Skold vs. KMFDM, a collaboration between Skold and Konietzko, completed entirely over the internet without the two ever being on the same continent.<ref>http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=113920</ref> KMFDM's sixteenth studio album, Blitz, was released on March 24, 2009, once again featuring contributions from Skold and less from the band members not living in Germany. WWIII, Hau Ruck, Tohuvabohu, and Blitz have all charted in the top ten on Billboard's Dance/Electronic Albums Chart.

• Most of the albums in this section are only given release years, so maybe we can drop the release days/months from some of these more recent releases too? I don't see a need for any of them (except Apr 20, 1999, which is significant).

More citations

• Musical style - While recognized along with Nitzer Ebb, Ministry, and Skinny Puppy as pioneers in introducing industrial music to mainstream audiences,

Citation needed.

- KMFDM's earliest output is more accurately described as performance art,

According to who? It kind of seems like original research, like we're drawing a conclusion from his use of fire and vaccuums. A citation would be a good thing here.

- Since the release of 1989's UAIOE, KMFDM's music has been a fusion of electronic and heavy metal, with occasional elements of dub, as well as orchestral samples and live horns.

Citation needed.

- Frequent KMFDM contributor Raymond Watts incorporates the style of his own musical project PIG,

Citation needed.

Okay, on these items, I would say the first one should be easy to find a cite for, although perhaps not with that exact set of bands in the comparison. The second one is based on the fact that they did a performance art show on the day of their founding. I just cited it from KMFDM news. The third one is based on the music itself, not sure if it needs a cite. Is it a controversial claim about the contents of their music? The last one, meh, we could lose it for all I care, though something about Pig's orchestral stuff might be possible to find. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 03:43, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Musical style issues

- Konietzko stated, "If I was to give myself a label it would be industrial-alternative-electronic-crossover-rock and danceabilly."[53]

This line seems out of place. I think it would be better placed either at the beginning with the mention of "Ultra heavy beat", or at the end as a sort of summary for the whole section.

- Their songs often feature samples of news broadcasts and speeches by political leaders, usually in an expression of irony.

The part about the irony comes off as original research, so it could probably use a reference.

- Zappa is heavily referenced on the albums Don't Blow Your Top and UAIOE.[54]

That reference doesn't support that sentence. All the reference says is that they were influenced by Zappa, but nothing about being heavily referenced.

Okay, I moved the first one to end of the section, pulled the irony bit, and pulled the Zappa item for the moment. What do you think about this as a possible reference? Not sure if that's a reliable source or not. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 04:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Other stuff

• Touring and fanbase

I think references would be helpful on the sentences mentioning the various ways the band has interacted (Horde, FanKam; FanPhone seems well-sourced).

• Etymology - but is typically given the loose translation of "no pity for the majority" or "no mercy for the masses".

According to who?

- Is that whole paragraph of German grammar school really necessary? It kind of comes off as original research applying it here, at least without a citation. But I think it could just be removed, or shortened down to a simple sentence like "This order of words is grammatically correct". This also applies to the last 3 sentences of the section: again, too grammar-school, and coming off as original research. - After the release of Angst, TVT/Wax Trax! Records launched a promotion (without consent of the band) in which fans were encouraged to come up with at least 1,001 different meanings for KMFDM.

That the band did not consent to this promotion should have a citation.

• Album artwork

Since the Nihil artwork is mentioned, it might also be worth mentioning who came up with the artwork on the original WDYKD and Kickin' Ass. I can't say I recall a source stating this, but maybe someone else has seen one? (En mentioned to me when I got my original WDYKD signed that he found that picture of Irina in a newspaper, and they blew it up for the cover, but I'm hardly a reliable source).

• http://kmfdm.digitalfission.net/history.htm

I question whether this is a reliable source. Who runs it? Does it have a reputation for fact-checking? Editorial control?

As I said, I'll see if I can come up with a better lead within a day or so. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:37, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The digital fission site was just an archive of the KMFDM history page. I replaced it with the one from archive.org, which has versions from slightly different dates. I used that version to reference a few more items, including the part about the name contest. I trimmed a few lines on the grammar too. On the fan interaction and album artwork, not sure, but maybe you can find sources for those. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 04:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the fine-toothed comb to the article. I'll have more replies later. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 00:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I'll respond to some of your responses here in a little while, but one more question while I'm here: Günter vs. Guenter – which should we use and why? I'm of the opinion that we should use Günter, his birth name, and how he was credited on most KMFDM albums (that I can recall, anyway). However, I'm open to hearing a good reason to use Guenter. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I 100% favor Günter. I've only been using Guenter because that's the name of his WP article. I'd gladly move it back to Günter and umlaut the hell out of everything. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 02:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposed new lead

• OK, here's my first attempt. I may have included things that are too detailed for the lead, or not have included things that maybe I should have (Tim Skold, perhaps?), so have at it and we can get a good lead going. This is definitely still a first draft.
• I referenced three Featured "big band" articles for an idea of how the lead should progress: Metallica, Nirvana, and Meshuggah (granted, Meshuggah aren't as big as the other two, but it seemed like a good idea to pick a "big underground" band, I suppose).
• I have removed references from the lead for now, as they're generally undesirable in the lead. However, if something NEEDS to be referenced in the lead, then we can figure that out later (for now we can hammer out the wording and content of the lead).

MrMoustacheMM (talk) 05:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I like what you've got so far!

I think the reference I found says KMFDM were more like pioneers in popularizing industrial music, or bringing it to a wider audience, not that they were pioneers in general, although we might be able to find a reference for that too.

I don't think we need quotes around FanKam and FanPhone. Also, perhaps we could just trim that part down to: "The band is very approachable at live shows, and they have invited fans to participate in their creative output, through activities and events such as FanKam and FanPhone." Then just elaborate more in the fanbase section.

Also, one of the references I've got in the article, forget which one, but it's an actual book, is a pretty in depth interview with Sascha, which has made me think we need to overhaul the musical style section some more. He basically says they've always used lots of guitars, even from the beginning. It's kind of contrasting KMFDM with bands like Ministry and NIN, who came from the synth pop side of things first. I'll try to find it again. It's actually a good read.

Other than that, what you've got here is pretty spot on as far as covering all the bases. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 13:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've changed the line about being pioneers, but if a ref can be found calling them that (or something similar) for the main article, I'd like to put the original sentence back in. I also like the condensing of FanKam/FanPhone; replaced. Sounds good. Let me know if you find that interview, I'd like to read it too.

I'll try throwing this into the article for now, see how it looks, and go from there. If you're not a fan of how I changed the pioneer sentence, feel free to alter it. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 02:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

KMFDM

KMFDM is an industrial band led by founding member Sascha Konietzko, who started the group as a performance art project in 1984. The band has undergone many line-up changes throughout its history, and has included countless guest appearances by other musicians. The earliest incarnations of the band, formed in Germany, included drummer En Esch and British musician Raymond Watts. Watts would leave and rejoin the band several times over their career. Guitarist Günter Schulz joined the band in 1990, and both he and Esch continued with the band until KMFDM broke up in 1999. Konietzko resurrected the band in 2002 (with Esch and Schulz declining to rejoin), and by 2005 the current line-up emerged, including American singer Lucia Cifarelli, British guitarists Jules Hodgson and Steve White, and British drummer Andy Selway.

KMFDM are considered one of the first bands to bring industrial music to mainstream audiences, although Konietzko refers to the band's style as "The Ultra-Heavy Beat". Their early albums relied heavily on samples, drum machines, and synthesizers. The addition of Schulz moved the band in a more industrial metal direction. The band incorporates heavy guitar riffs, electronic music, samples, and often female vocals in their music.

The name is an initialism for "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid", although many other suggestions have been made by both the band and fans. KMFDM has a history of naming most of their albums, along with many of their songs, with 5-letter words, such as Angst or "Sucks". KMFDM's album artwork has been almost exclusively provided by artist Aidan "Brute!" Hughes.

KMFDM have released sixteen studio albums, and had sold approximately 2 million records in the United States alone as of September 2003, with multiple albums selling more than 100,000 copies, and a number of singles becoming club hits. KMFDM constantly interact with their fans in many ways. The band is very approachable at live shows, and they have invited fans to participate in their creative output, through activities and events such as FanKam and FanPhone..

The group has been mentioned in connection with two separate school shooting controversies, but have repeatedly distanced themselves from any incitements to violence.

Translation in the lead

I agree that it's not really necessary for the lead. It's not so important that without that knowledge you would not understand who KMFDM are or what they're about. But if someone has a good reason to include it, I'd be willing to change my mind. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 15:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

KMFDM "code" section

I've been thinking about this, and I wonder: do we even really need this section? It's really pretty trivial, and only cites the band's homepage, the Symbols liner notes, and an offhand mention in an interview about the original name for Hau Ruck being FUBAR. It doesn't seem notable. Unless someone can figure out a way to find some reliable sources discussing it a little more in depth, I don't see any way it could survive a featured article review in its current condition. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 21:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

KMFDM Etymology

Possibly deserving mention in this section is that on WTF?!, in the opening track Krank, the phrase Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid may be repeated several times as part of the song. I can't hear / speak German well enough to know if it's the original phrase or some variant. Various lyric sites (which seem to be blacklisted here, but found on all I've Googled) have it as "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid, 24/7," but I don't know to what extent they simply copy each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.27.235 (talk) 21:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

KMFDM Name

Sorry, but there is a little translation mistake ( i am a german native ) instead of: Kein Mehrheit fuer die Mirleid (lit.: No majority for the compassion)it actually is the other way around: Kein Mitleid fuer die Mehrheit(lit.: No compassion for the majority ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tom55wiki (talk • contribs) 23:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not a mistake. It is intentional on the part of the band. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 01:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep. This is even sourced in the article. The source is http://web.archive.org/web/19970408173452/http://www.kmfdm.net/history.html. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 04:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should add some sort of note to the top of the talk page about it? —Torchiest ^talk_edits 16:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't hurt. Adding a couple hidden comments (one in the lead, one in the body) saying "This is not a mistake, the grammar is incorrect on purpose" or something along those lines would probably also help. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I put just such a hidden comment in the lead, but I figured the section about the name explained itself, otherwise we need to work on it! ;) —Torchiest ^talk_edits 04:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I came here via the List of German expressions in English page in order to find out about the reason behind the grammar errors in the band name. I'll add a little note to the etymology section to indicate how the name would be inflected properly in German. Mabuse (talk) 13:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Rebels in (C/K)ontrol

I checked the news site link, and it is spelled with a C the first time, but it is spelled with a K every other time on the page, including specifically mentioning that it was the song posted. I dunno. I figure the K spelling is the official song title spelling, so that's what I'd go with, but it's not crucial. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 02:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The original release (the MP3) was with a "C", and the album version was with a "K". I figure the spelling difference was a "remix-specific" spelling. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Tim Skold

As I remember (and it has been seen in various videos) Tim Skold played mainly BASS nt a guitar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.124.177.50 (talk) 14:16, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

It could be that he played more bass in MM, but he did a lot of both in KMFDM. He's done just about everything, as a matter of fact; I added bass and drums to his instruments in the members section. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 16:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Members section

Members section is quite simpler that it can be. i think that editor of the page can add current line up, former members and guest contributors with real timeline or with years of "being in band". There is so hard to find live members (additional guitasrsts or drummers). Also someone who is interested in some bands members can understand only from releases information who was in band in some time. Also I think there is can be added information about instruments played by someone (for example Konietzko played guitar studio only). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.115.13 (talk) 14:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I've got a chart I've been working on here and there for a while now. It's not done, but it's getting there. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 23:02, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Looking good so far. I like that you picked the Live/Studio differentiation, and that you don't count one-off (or two-off) guest appearances live as being part of the "Live" group. Might be worth breaking up Sascha's timeline from 99-01 as well, since the band technically didn't exist then (or you could make a colour for "MDFMK" and apply it to those 3 people).

I wonder if a List of KMFDM band members (similar to List of Opeth band members) might be a worthwhile page to make? Then all guest contributors can be listed in some sort of format (chart, table, bullet list...I'm a fan of bullet list myself but am open to other styles). That would be a good place for the chart to go as well. Probably take a bit of work, but I'd be willing to chip in some help. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 01:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I do like the idea of a list page of some kind. As for Sascha's line on the chart, I figured even though the group was "disbanded", he is synonymous with KMFDM, he owns all the rights to the name, and was the one who both ended the group and started it back up again. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 18:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Understandable, but I think it might be confusing to readers who don't know the band well enough as us. "I thought they were broken up during that time, how was he still a member?". Not a huge deal, but just something worth considering. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Something else to consider is that Sascha was still doing remixes as KMFDM during the off years: [http://www.amazon.com/Remixed-Hits-Missing-Persons/dp/B00000K072 1999 (track 7)], [http://www.amazon.com/Cheap-Dream-Trick-Tribute/dp/B000R02O8E 2000 (track 2)], [http://www.amazon.com/Phi-Sky-Kidneythieves/dp/B00005RGNK 2001 (track 5)], and [http://www.amazon.com/Safe-Kittie/dp/B000071JVB 2002 (track 1)]. So in that sense, it was more of a hiatus in studio albums only, rather than all "band" activities. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 16:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, cool, I didn't realise he was doing that. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, you talked about it.. And so what? What have been changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.115.13 (talk) 14:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

So far, we have changed nothing. Eventually, Torcheist's chart may be added to the page. The List of KMFDM band members article doesn't exist yet, but hopefully we can get it up and running eventually, and provide a link in this article. However, as of right now, adding every member/guest/producer/whatever would be overkill for the size of the article, I think. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I created List of KMFDM band members as an article today. I've added a bunch of references to it, it still needs further sourcing (most of which can come from the CD booklets, which I or someone else will get around to adding) as I just wanted to get a bunch of secondary sources in first (so to avoid the "Relies on Primary Sources" template). I added a Main template link in the Members section of this article. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 02:11, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Retrospectacle

The Chicago Tribune link in the reference for the Wax Trax! Retrospectacle is dead. I'm trying to find a good replacement. I have two pretty good links so far, but there are a few problems. L.A. Weekly has a good piece describing some of the action. However, it doesn't mention Mona Mur performing. There's also this Chicago Sun-Times link, which mentions her, but it's a weird mobile-only link that forces a redirect almost immediately. You have to hit the stop button in your browser quickly to view the article. The other problem is neither article mentions that the event was for charity. If anyone can find another solid reference for the event, that would be great. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 21:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you know if it was published in print by that newspaper? If so, it's still a legitimate reference (although the formatting will have to be changed to cite the newspaper, not the website). Other than that, I did a quick Google search, best I could find was stuff in the "Leisure Blogs" area of the Tribune, which I'm guessing probably don't count as reliable? Most of the other links didn't say anything about charity or were questionable for reliability (is The Gauntlet (thegauntlet.com) reliable?). MrMoustacheMM (talk) 01:01, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

A print newspaper is considered at or near the top as a reliable reference, no matter what section the article appeared in. When citing newspaper sources, I prefer to cite the print version, because that's a solid, permanent and reliable reference. Online versions of newspaper articles can disappear behind paywalls, or have their links go dead when the site is reorganized. Dementia13 (talk) 01:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

ADAWS (and the remix of RIC I think applies as well)

Is this edit notable enough? If so, should we include that a remix of Rebels in Control was also released? And how should we source that (I'd rather find a secondary source talking about it than just another KMFDM.com/news link)? I kinda don't think it's really notable enough (we don't list other one-off song releases like "Ooh La La" or "Material Girl"), but maybe if there's a good source out there talking about the release of the song(s)? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 00:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about adding it for a while. In the context of the protests, it seems notable enough, especially since the lyrics were completely re-written. If not in the main article, maybe in the "A Drug Against War" article instead. We don't necessarily need independent sources for all information in the article, since kmfdm.net is reliable, but a little news blurb on something like sideline would be nice. The new mix of Rebels in Control doesn't seem quite as important, since it was just a remix with no other changes. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 02:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

While KMFDM.net is reliable, does it in any way demonstrate the notability of this song being released? I could support the addition to the ADAW article ("a version with new lyrics was released in 2011 etc"), but it hardly seems notable enough to mention here. Maybe a news article from a music-related source (Blabbermouth, some magazine, etc) would mention the new version and its relation to the Occupy movement. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

To be clear, notability isn't at issue for content. Notability only applies to the article subject should exist in the first place. The policies to look at for something like this would be WP:NNC and WP:WEIGHT. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 19:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. It just seems unimportant to add this info to this article; it's not even a new single, just a remix of an old song put up for download (we don't even mention the releases of Godlike 2010 and Light 2010 here, and those were actual releases). I think it would be better placed in A Drug Against War, which is more directly about the song. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)