Talk:Joseph Ray Watkins

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Former good articleJoseph Ray Watkins was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 27, 2020Good article nomineeListed
February 26, 2023Good article reassessmentDelisted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 4, 2017.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that J. R. Watkins (pictured with sales wagon) offered America's first money back guarantee for his products?
Current status: Delisted good article


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Portrait + signature[edit]

I extracted Watkins's portrait and signature from the 1900 Encyclopedia of Biography. I went ahead and added the signature to the page (it could probably use some cleanup or even vectorization), but I wasn't sure which portrait looked better for the article. The one I extracted is here: File:Joseph Ray Watkins portrait (Encyclopedia of Biography of Minnesota).jpg and in my opinion it better shows what he looks like. Cheers, Sn1per (talk) 19:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Joseph Ray Watkins/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ajpolino (talk · contribs) 21:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can get to this review shortly, looking forward to the read. Ajpolino (talk) 21:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note, I'll have sporadic bursts of free time in the next few days, so it may take me a few days to finish the review. Feel free to chip away at things as I post them, as you've done below. I hope all is well! Ajpolino (talk) 19:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino:  Working Sounds like a plan. I have already expanded the Early life and Career sections to make the sequence of events clearer.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:50, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: Other issues have been addressed. Can you take another look. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: pardon the slow review. All done. Comments below. Ajpolino (talk) 22:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  • The second paragraph of "Early life" is a bit confusing:
This caused them to move out of the area the Watkins family? The Indians?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Watkins moved to southern Minnesota around 1867 The father (who the paragraph otherwise seems to be about)? The subject? The whole family?
 Done - Removed the second part altogether as I am not able to verify at this time. Apparently I got this from some hard copy book and at this time all libraries in Michigan are closed. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Indian skirmishes" sounds strange to my ear. Perhaps "Skirmishes between Indians and the settlers"?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The middle of that paragraph is a bit choppy - maybe "Skirmishes between Indians and the settlers continued until [some point] when the US gov't issued a $300 bounty for any Indian killed or apprehended" - obviously I made up a couple of those details, but hopefully your source contains them.
The threat of an Indian war then ended for these pioneers - seems unnecessary, maybe merge with the previous sentence?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life - Watkins passed through Harrison, Ohio, and on the way to Cadiz to retrieve his new bride - I think this sentence just has an extraneous "and", but also a slight reword would be nice. As a reader, it's weird to read two sentences in a row that end in "his new bride".
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Career - I had never heard of "camphor" and would've appreciated a wikilink. Best I can tell, it's the same as Camphor? Perhaps Camphor#Medicinal_uses is an alternative wikilink? Not an essential addition, but just a thought.
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Career - He personally bottled the... and made it available in bottles for sale to the public. - The wording seems a bit redundant here ("bottled" + "made it available in bottles"). Perhaps "He personally bottled... and sold it to the public"?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:23, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life - ...local public schools when growing up. - "when growing up" can be removed. It's clear from the context.
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life - ...and took her back to Minnesota - perhaps this is a regional thing but "took her back to" sounds odd to my ear. Just a bit abduct-y. Perhaps "returned with her to Minnesota"?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  • The second paragraph of "Early life" seems to have the wrong citation? All that ref seems to have on the topic is where soon after they were subject to many hardships brought on by the Indian War..
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems like both the 1900 encyclopedia article and the directsalesguy.com page mention buying out a Richard Ward to enter the business of selling medical products. Perhaps that would be worth including? The article currently gives the impression he just decided to start selling his own personal tinctures.
@Ajpolino:  Working Two minds thinking along the same lines. It so happens that I am writing up off-line in draft just such a thing as I realized the same thing you did. I will drop that in for an updated article by tomorrow.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • First paragraph of Early life - Is there another reference that some of that material is drawn from? The local public schools, "a Farmer's college founded by Freeman Cary" (unless you happen to have found elsewhere that this is what the source meant by "educated at College Hill, Ohio"), and "to keep out of the Civil War" are all missing from the 1900 encyclopedia source I think.
  • I'm a bit concerned about the reliability of the directsalesguy.com source [1]. It's article looks really nice, but the site itself seems a bit odd. The website [2] seems to currently host the Kalispell,_Montana downtown association... Do you know anything else about the source? Maybe it's a reprint of an existing article?
 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

3. It is broad in its coverage.

a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  • Where did you find the lead image (File:Watkins 1911.jpg)? Did you get a physical copy and scan it? I can't find any record that there was a 1911 edition of the "Encyclopedia of Biography of Minnesota", but I may have just missed it.
  • Similarly, for File:Watkins sales wagon 1900.jpg, I assume you physically visited that university's library and scanned that picture? Do you have any other information about it? Namely, where was it originally published? Or if it wasn't published and it's in the library's collection, what's the name of the collection?
@Ajpolino: Done - Can't recall exactly where I originally got the pictures, so replaced them with others. Will these new ones work? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: - All issues have been addressed. Can you take another look. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: I've looked through everything again and it all looks great, except for File:Watkins sales wagon 1900.jpg. I understand this may seem inane and nitpicky, but pre-1925 photographs are only automatically in the public domain if they were "published" before 1925. For unpublished work, copyright extends for the rest of the creator's life plus 70 years. The Minnesota Historical Society's page on this photo doesn't indicate if it was ever "published" or not, saying only that their own "Photo lab" created the collection. The page for the collection doesn't indicate its origin either. Since the photos are from around 120 years ago, they'd be in the public domain if either (A) they were published, or (B) the photographer died over 70 years ago. Since it's possible the photographer died more recently than that (i.e. after 1950), we don't know that this is in the public domain. Commons tends to take a conservative approach on cases like this, not wanting to distribute media that turns out to be under someone else's control. So as I see it our options are:
  1. Write the Minnesota Historical Society, asking if (A) they know more of this history of these photographs (if we knew the photographer and could find his/her death date, that would give us some clarity), and (B) if they'd be willing to release them under a compatible license. I've had some luck with university libraries being willing to do this, and I'm happy to reach out to them if you'd like to pursue this option.
  2. Just remove the picture and either find another or go without.
  3. Bring it to a deletion discussion at Commons to get more opinions.
Copyright law is ridiculous and (in my opinion) over-protective. I'm sorry to be the messenger who must bring the unpleasantness of copyright law to you. Happy to chat about this if you have questions. Ajpolino (talk) 20:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: Thanks much for explaining this all to me. I'll just remove the picture and go without. My goal is for it to become a Good Article. My ultimate goal is to get 100 Good Articles before the end of the year or before the end of the pandemic (whichever comes first).--Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell:, no worries. I'll mark this review a pass then! I'm reaching out to WP:MED this week for more GA reviewers, so hopefully your other GAN in the queue will be picked up quickly. Best of luck on your GA journey! Ajpolino (talk) 20:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overall:

Pass/Fail:

Copyright contributor investigation and Good article reassessment[edit]

This article is part of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20210315 and the Good article (GA) drive to reassess and potentially delist over 200 GAs that might contain copyright and other problems. An AN discussion closed with consensus to delist this group of articles en masse, unless a reviewer opens an independent review and can vouch for/verify content of all sources. Please review Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/February 2023 for further information about the GA status of this article, the timeline and process for delisting, and suggestions for improvements. Questions or comments can be made at the project talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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