Talk:Joseph Lagrange

The Mathematician and the General

I take issue with recent move of the article about General Joseph Lagrange to Joseph Lagrange (soldier). The man's complete name was Joseph Lagrange, while the renowned mathematician was called Joseph-Louis Lagrange. According to wikipedia naming conventions (Section 5 - Precision and disambiguation) if a name is ambiguous, which is the case of Joseph Lagrange, then we should use: "Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose a different, alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit, not as commonly as the preferred but ambiguous title (do not, however, use obscure or made up names)." these same standards say that we should proceed to Parenthetical disambiguation - such as Joseph Lagrange (soldier) - only when the Natural disambiguation is not possible. Since the two personalities do not share the exact same name, standards clearly require a Natural disambiguation. The French and Spanish wikipedias seem to have got this issue right.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I moved it after being alerted to a problem on Talk:Algebra, caused by the change of the redirect to an article. The change broke a number of links, not just that one, which reflects this, even though it's more common to link to his page either using Lagrange or his full name. The relevant guideline is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

Although a word, name or phrase may refer to more than one topic, it is sometimes the case that one of these topics is the primary topic. If a primary topic exists, then that term should be the title of the article on that topic (or should redirect to an article on that topic that uses a different, more appropriate title)

and

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

If you count the number of links to the mathematician there are over 500. If you search for 'Joseph Lagrange' the mathematician comes up far more often. That Lagrange redirects to his name shows he is the most prominent person named 'Lagrange', not just named 'Joseph Lagrange'. And so on.

I noted the substantial page on the French WP as I wanted to verify his notability, but I don't know what the relevant rules are on other language WP and they certainly don't apply here. Also how notable/primary he is will vary from language to language. In particular he may be much more notable in French because of his role in French history, or may be the primary topic there because there are many more articles on French history than mathematics on the French WP (I have no idea if this is true). But for all these reasons we are not guided by the practices of other WP.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 16:46, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The French article Joseph Lagrange (about the general) registered only about 100 hits last month at traffic statistics, whereas Joseph-Louis Lagrange was hit over 2500 times. Clearly, Joseph Lagrange should redirect to the mathematician (perhaps with a hat providing a link to the general). Tkuvho (talk) 16:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The hat is already there to the disambiguation page Lagrange (disambiguation), which lists other people with the same name and to which I added the general as part of the move.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 17:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I do understand the various points above. It still seems unnatural to say that the mathematician is the main topic for the name Joseph Lagrange. This is beceuase the man's first name was Joseph-Louis, not just Joseph. I do not dispute the fact that the mathematician is very renowned, while the general might just be known to a historian. However, this is a significant general of the Napoleonic Wars, who held several significant commands and it's not just your average officer. I believe that encyclopedic rigor requires that we move the general to Joseph Lagrange.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 17:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Again I disagree with you thinking it unnatural, and this is backed up by evidence of usage, existing links and references to the mathematician. I would also repeat the following from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

"If a primary topic exists, then that term should be the title of the article on that topic (or should redirect to an article on that topic that uses a different, more appropriate title)" (my emphasis)

So there is nothing unnatural about having the article at Joseph Louis Lagrange but with Joseph Lagrange redirected to it, it's precisely how it should work according to policy.

If the general were as significant as you say there would be no need to assert it, it could be verified by page views or links to the page. It may be that some time in the future, when coverage of the Napoleonic Wars is much improved and many people visit the English WP to read them, his article will be more important and so be the primary topic. But I don't think that is the case now for the reasons given above.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, you did a good job. I am just wondering though, given that the other fellow's name is also Joseph Lagrange, perhaps we can have a more specific hat to a disambiguation page for "Joseph Lagrange" rather than the general "Lagrange" disambiguation. Just a thought, wonder what you think. Tkuvho (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2011 (UTC)