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Promotional tone

"The goals of his entrepreneurial endeavors revolve around his visions to change the world and humanity.[20] His ultimate goals include reducing global warming through sustainable energy production and consumption; as well as reducing the chance of human extinction by making life multiplanetary[21][22] and setting up human colony on Mars. These goals are being achieved with SolarCity, Tesla Motors and SpaceX respectively."

That sounds REALLY WP:promotional. The information is there, but can't that be rewritten to sound less suck-uppy? Vyselink (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Sure, definitely over the top. You might simply find the recent edit that added that and revert it, pointing to WP:BRD and this discussion on the Talk page. N2e (talk) 04:28, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
That's easier said than done; it looks like that text was added in several edits over the past few months, not just one. I might be willing to take a stab at rewording it in a neutral tone. JustinTime55 (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Poorly worded. Vision not visions. Otherwise correct. He has been quoted many times as saying his goal is to change the world. To revolutionise the way the world uses energy. To change the way transportation is used. To end the fossil fuel era. Etc. 1.132.96.14 (talk) 23:44, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2016

Please change 83th to 83rd in the second paragraph. He's 94th now anyway: http://www.forbes.com/profile/elon-musk/?list=billionaires.

Ssslow (talk) 10:28, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Done @Ssslow: Thank you! st170etalk 13:27, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

misquotations issue on Code Conference 2016

Hi there, I'm newby and cannot fix Elon's page myself as semi-protected. Want to raise issue, that e.g. recently (I only came upon news today) he was misquoted about simulation hypothesis, I watched video and some words was omitted, like MAYBE with resulting headlines news FIRMLY BELIEVES (Elon Musk says he firmly believes reality is a simulation created by a superintelligence).

I have suspicion that earlier quotes mentioned on wiki page maybe misquotes too by the way. Can volunteer to check.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/we-dont-live-in-a-simulation http://motherboard.vice.com/read/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK_kzrJPS8)

There is s possibility of cause that the video was digitally edited. or his mind was edited, in a sim all is possible. Still, what other wiki contributors think?

P.S. when I create new question on stackoverflow, system shows me most relevant questions and I often not create mine. On wiki, how to check if the subject (like misquotations) was raised already? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexM202020 (talk • contribs) 10:59, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Minor spelling error

It should read "although" instead of "althongh".

141.35.40.136: Thank you, now fixed! Appable (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

LA Times Article

The user Heuh0 claims the following: "The 'article' was a journalistic piece by one of the largest media outlets, it REVEALED not claimed numbers and points unseen before and therefore noteworthy" -- there was nothing "revealed" in that article. Everything mentioned in the article is public information that is available in Tesla and SolarCity's publicly available financial and press reports. The article took information that was already available, sensationalized it, and used it to villify the corporations. The government invests in a lot of companies through a variety of outlets; did the article mention that United Launch Alliance of Lockheed/Boeing gets more than $1 billion in annual subsidy by the government just to stay in business? No, instead they focused on the few million that Texas and other states is investing in SpaceX's launch sites which they hope will benefit the state in the future. This is because the article is an extremely biased work of journalism; it lies by omission. Frankly it shouldn't be mentioned at all, but if it IS going to be mentioned, it's just neither stylistic nor readable nor reasonable to put such an enormous paragraph in-- it does not merit that much text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aerovistae (talk • contribs) 20:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

www.facebook.com/groups/ElonMusk

How do I edit the external links section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.128.97.9 (talk) 02:28, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Consistency issue

Elon Musk's net worth is not uniform throughout the article. In addition, both net worth citations link to the same Forbes page, where it claims that Elon Musk is worth $11.8 billion. Here is the link that is already cited in the article: http://www.forbes.com/profile/elon-musk/?list=billionaires The page itself just needs to be updated. Apiazza97 (talk) 18:03, 7 October 2016 (UTC)Apiazza97Apiazza97 (talk) 18:03, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2016


2001:569:72C5:D500:A8BB:3C9C:A3F2:D236 (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

What edit would you like made? White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:52, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Personal Life section reads like a 3rd grade essay

Something has to be done about the first paragraph in the Personal life section. It starts with something about his car, a jet, and some other things which are seemingly all random and have nothing really important to do with his life.

Can we really not find anything better to start off the section about his personal life?

DbivansMCMLXXXVI (talk) 09:06, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Physicist?

Elon has a degree in Physics, does this not technically make him a physicist in addition to everything already listed?

Should this be included in the summary?

DbivansMCMLXXXVI (talk) 04:14, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Grammatical error in following paragraph:

Politically, Musk has described himself as "half Democrat, half Republican". In his own words: "I'm somewhere in the middle, socially liberal and fiscally conservative."[126] In December 2016, it was announced that Musk will join President elect Donald Trumps Strategic and Policy Forum, as a corporate adviser.[127][128][129] This should be changed to Trump's. This is under Elon Musk's political belief section. Hope this helps. --Deceasedpixel (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Inventor? Engineer?

In no way to downplay Musk's achievements, but the characterisations that he is an inventor and engineer in the lede are supported by very weak sources. Can we get more reliable sources on exactly what he does on the practical level. From everything I can find he is more of a engineering aware entrepreneur, rather than an inventor or engineer himself. 92.111.0.82 (talk) 12:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC) If he is not an engineer you can see this religius nuts get him his degree just because he have money what a degenerate world we live in full of shity people.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.58.23.240 (talk) 03:00, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Would appearing on a patent that has been issued by the USPTO count as a reliable source for the claim that Elon Musk is considered an inventor? Specifically, he is listed as the inventor of the door design used on the Tesla Model-X. I agree that there could be some better sources, but from people I've talked to or had other communications with regarding his role in his companies, he very much is involved with the engineering of the products he has been involved with too. Mr. Musk has used the title CTO (Chief Technical Officer) in addition to his CEO (Chief Executive Officer) to describe his position at both SpaceX and in the past at Tesla. These claims in the lede are very much substantiated. --Robert Horning (talk) 14:17, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
He does not hold a degree in engineering, therefore he cannot be called an engineer. Engineering is a legally regulated profession and one must be registered or licensed as a professional engineer (PE, P.Eng) to call oneself an engineer (Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#United_States). 66.130.132.86 (talk) 19:44, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
You are mistaken about engineers being legally required to be "registered or licensed" in the United States, and the Wikipedia page you link does not claim this. That being said, I fully agree that calling him an engineer is inappropriate because he has no such degree. Since his degree is in physics, that would make him a physicist, though a meagerly educated one. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
However, that being said, if we actually read the cited source, written by an ASME engineer, we find a compelling argument for calling him an engineer, based on how he has applied his physics education. This makes the degree look like nit-picking. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:31, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
People do sometimes get university degrees in physics and subsequently hire into jobs as engineers. I personally worked side-by-side with one gentleman who did exactly that. A well-known example is Mike Judge (producer of Beavis and Butt-Head). Engineers are people who DO engineering. My experience also includes working with several engineers who did their jobs well even having no university degrees at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.223.130.32 (talk) 00:01, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

His father was an electro-mechanical engineer so he grew up surrounded by engineering. To claim that somebody must have a degree to qualify as an engineer is false. By that definition Leonardo Da Vinci and the Wright Brothers were not engineers. 1.132.96.14 (talk) 23:37, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Which is completely correct, they weren't engineers. This is not the way it works, you have to get a degree. MrEnglish (talk) 23:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Why does the page still say that Musk is an engineer? From his education record it appears he doesn't have an engineering degree. Please someone correct this; we have to save the reputation of engineers, it seems.84.188.250.193 (talk) 07:37, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

FROM WIKIPEDIA! In 1960, the Conference of Engineering Societies of Western Europe and the United States of America defined "professional engineer" as follows: "A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his/her fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the analysis and solution of engineering problems." THERE! No specific training or qualifications given. Its knowledge based. Not degree based. 1.128.97.9 (talk) 02:26, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree with the fact that on wikipedia Elon Musk is an engineer. He doesn't have an education background in engineering to be called an engineer. Maybe he reads a lot of textbooks about engineering but it's not the same. Let's say that I read a lot about flowers and trees and I like gardening. Does this make me an arborist? Of course not. It's the same logic in this case. Someone do the correction in the article to not perpetuate this mistake.Leonovliviu (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The argument here is in regards to how much time Elon Musk actually spends doing calculations, performing assessments, reviewing designs, drafting new designs (or coding), and otherwise involved in the actual engineering processes that happen in the respective companies that he is involved with. If you are reading books about flowers and trees and also engaged in the details of a landscaping business where you are actively involved in planting trees and working with customers on the health of various plants.... at what point do you become that arborist you claim you can't become? Having an education background is sort of irrelevant excepting specific government requirments.... where that becomes a political issue and not a dictionary definition issue.
It is better said that Elon Musk is an engineering manager on the same level as Werner Von Braun and Sergi Korolev. With the kinds of rockets that have been built by SpaceX over the years, I think that is even a really fair comparison too. Would those two managers be considered engineers? Like Von Braun, Musk reviews the calculations and designs and gets into the technical details of the various projects he is involved with. That is also why he retains the CTO title for SpaceX as well.... because he is also the head of engineering across the whole company and other engineering managers are responsible for individual departments or much smaller pieces of the company. It is really hard to say that somebody working on that level and in that kind of detail on engineering projects is not an engineer either. --Robert Horning (talk) 02:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
He is a physicist. That is what he went to school for, and that is widely considered better than an engineer, since they are the people who create the very equations that engineers use. Can an engineer be a mechanic as well, without training? You bet.
Musk's rocket design mentor stated that he was the most intelligent person he had ever met, and that engineers often get insulted by his questions. His mentor (whos entry keeps being removed from wikipedia) states that musk knew the material so well that he could repeat it "Verbatim".
Questioning his intelligence indirectly or challenging his ability to understand his own fields is uncalled for. He isnt some businessman pretending to be a rocket scientist, he is a very highly intelligent physicist and has very deep knowledge of rocketry and other fields. DbivansMCMLXXXVI (talk) 04:40, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Why is this even being debated? The best engineers in history were self taught. The Wright brothers never went to college. They built printing presses and were bicycle repair men before building an aeroplane. If the Wright brothers weren't engineers then nobody deserves the title. 1.132.96.17 (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

"Lithium third most abundant element in universe."- Elon Musk

Even though I like this guy I can't take him spreading disinformation like this:
youtu.be/_GBnJNLoBuw?t=22m12s
I think it's a significant point to be made that he can make serious mistakes.
Lithium is the 44th most abundant element in this galaxy and 33rd in the Earth's crust.
Not third; Oxygen is third, ie. Water is the most abundant mixed atom molecule.
74.216.15.109 (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC) https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/ 74.216.15.109 (talk) 08:12, 12 September 2016 (UTC) https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/4vbe52/elon_has_got_to_stop_saying_lithuium_is_the_3rd/ 74.216.15.109 (talk) 08:13, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not mentioned in the article and I don't think it's worth mentioning, could be just a mistake. Raquel Baranow (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Funny how you have to contradict yourself to contradict the facts. There is no "just a mistake" here, he is basing the entire production of electric cars (just all electric cars) on the false assumption of an abundance of Lithium for electric car batteries. This is a major error and/or a serious deception on his part to the investors of both the company and buyers of the cars. 206.45.186.252 (talk) 07:12, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Unless you have scanned the entire universe (and most of it is likely beyond the range of our telescopes) you cannot know Elon is wrong. 1.132.96.17 (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

We are, or should be, using this Talk page to improve the article. If you have a source for something that might be usable in the article, have at it, after all, WP:ANYONECANEDIT, although for controversial topics or material where sources don't agree, you'll have a much better time discussing it on the Talk page first.
But the other stuff needs to go. Wikipedia is not a forum and it is no place for soapboxing. Also, focus on the article, not your opinion of other editor's opinions. Cheers. N2e (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to be tactless in the way I insert this into the article, but it is important enough for magazine editors to correct, therefore it is important enough to add to this article, but I think it should be written up by another editor. 207.161.208.72 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Elon Musk on Social Media.

Elon Musk and his companies appear to be most active on social media and most of the news published about him originates from his tweets. Wikipedia can't claim to be an open balanced resource if it ignores the bulk of his online presence. At the very minimum his twitter account http://www.twitter.com/elonmusk should be included in external links and possibly his biggest facebook group http://www.facebook,com/groups/elonmusk which covers even more news items than his websites. 1.132.96.17 (talk) 00:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2017

elon musk starred in Transcendance(2014) as well as Machete Kills(2013) at falcon 9 site. Bobby98gill (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talk • contribs) 19:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2017

Need to make change to name and a few other rather change my name in real life and have my real name on internet Bdc1040 (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talk • contribs) 18:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

The sidebar in the article is using the "nationality" field to describe the countries Mr. Musk is a citizen of. Instead of the "nationality" field, the "citizenship" one should be used. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citizenship_and_nationality — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alessandros91 (talk • contribs)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 05:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2017

On the right hand side of the page, it states his net worth as of January 29, 2017. But at the very beginning of the summary, it declares his net worth as of June 2016. So I propose that we change the net worth in the summary to the one on the reference of [6]. 44HY (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. There is other text that would be affected by the requested edit.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Elon Musk has actually started digging his tunnel

The section on the boring company should be edited to indicate this. Tbodt (talk) 04:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Elon Musk address to Caltech graduating class in 2012174.113.196.95 (talk) 22:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Elon Musk attended Queens College, University of Toronto in Canada [not Queens University, Kingston, Ontario, CanadaCite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).].

About Amber Heard

A related discussion about Amber Heard and her relationship with Elon Musk is at Talk:Amber Heard#Amber Heard and Elon Musk. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2017

Add Elon's interview with Neil deGrasse Tyson on StartTalk Radio[1] to the bottom Interview section. Extremely popular podcast episode. Jonnymhenderson (talk) 22:42, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Tyson, Neil. "Extended Classic: The Future of Humanity, with Elon Musk". StarTalk. Curved Light Productions. Retrieved 11 May 2017.
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - Mlpearc (open channel) 22:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was no consensus for merging. In line with the concerns that the Neuralink article is currently too sparse, I'll go ahead and move some of the content from this article to that one. Λυδαcιτγ 18:10, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

We just had a major discussion on what to do with the Neuralink article and we figured that merging it to the relevant section on the Elon Musk page makes sense, since the content on that other page is nothing different from the content on this page. CubeSats4U 08:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion appears to still be open. I voiced my opinion.Kellymoat (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Oppose

  • Oppose merge With that you mean you and one other person? Let's discuss the merger here and not over there at an entirely separate discussion and wall of text. --Fixuture (talk) 21:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Addendum: the reasons for why I oppose this merge are as follows
a) Having everything crammed onto one page makes it hard to read and identify page contents. It clutters the page and also makes it look bad and is imo bad practice.
b) A section instead of a separate article makes it harder to find.
c) People would expect an article and not just a section on this page.
d) The reports were about the company as something separate
e) A separate page allows for better discussion, more info (e.g. via proper templates, categories, WikiProjects, talk page)
f) There is enough to say about Neuralink to warrant an article now already. People often don't even want more info than featured there - they just want an on-point, neutral summary of it. And more info will come by time.
g) It's two separate topics: "Elon Musk" is about Musk - "Neuralink" is a bout a company. It does not fit fine here.
--Fixuture (talk) 21:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
a) Neuralink is independently notable and separate to Elon Musk.
b) There is enough infomation available for it to have it's own article and not over clutter the Neuralink section on Elon Musk's article.
Vistadan (talk) 13:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge Neuralink is an independently notable and if the content is the same at this article and the other article, then the Musk article should be trimmed. --Frmorrison (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Support

  • support merge. I boldly did it and it fits here very easily. See here. Am fine with the revert and having a more formal process. The merger reasoning is:
a) folks want to add lots of stuff about Musk, so let that happen here, where it belongs, and
b) there is not very much to say about Neuralink per se now, and will not be for a long time; and
c) it fits here fine.
No actual reason has given to oppose the merge. Would be good to hear them. Jytdog (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support merge In my opinion, there is currently not enough real content or information about the company to justify a separate article. Other biomechanics companies have much more comprehensive information: a small list of examples is available on this page. I have a degree related to this field, and without a signficant shift in our understanding of non-invasive access to the cerebral cortex (which would completely rewrite our approach to neuropsychology), the information provided doesn't seem to satisfy WP:NOTE for the time being. Di4gram (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I think it very clearly meets WP:N and that "not 'enough' real content or information about the company" being available / other biotech company articles being longer is no proper reason to cram the contents into this article and deleting the separate article. If there's no more information available then it'll be a short article until that changes. Where's the problem? And does nobody here think about what might be the most convenient and useful for those that seek the respective information (readers)? --Fixuture (talk) 20:15, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
User:Fixuture - It is fine to disagree with the idea of the merger, but asking "What's the problem?" as though people have not taken the time to write here and describe the problem, is a misrepresentation and dishonors the entire process here. Please don't do that. Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Comments

  • Comment - if Neuralink does not qualify for an article, delete it and include summarized info on the Musk page. If it does qualify for an article, shorten the info on the Musk page and expand the info on the Neuralink page. Either way, keep company info short on personal pages. Kellymoat (talk) 13:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
That is probably would should happen, but there was been way too much of a media circus and too many people will cite refs from that; extremely unlikely to be deleted via AfD. The media circus regurgitated or speculated on the initial WSJ report and the... thing at Wait Buy Why. Thee is little encyclopedic content available about Neuralink now. Jytdog (talk) 15:13, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
  • comment it is really is best if the Neuralink article is moved here. As it stands, two of the three paragraphs in the Neuralink are "Musk said X" in any case. And as I noted, if you look at Talk page people keep trying to add yet more "Musk said X" stuff to that article that is just trivia. It is going to be a constant battle to keep that article focused on Neuralink (per what Fixuture said) but Fixuture appears to be unaware of what is actually happening at that article. There is unlikely to be any real developments at Neuralink for at least a couple of years, so we can have peace for at least that time, if this bit of content is here, in this article. The content is short; there is little encyclopedic to say about Neuralink at this time. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of patents

This is the lamest kind of WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:OR, stuff that one finds in WP, like a list of towns where there is a Target store. There are no secondary sources, no notion if these are all the patent applications on which he is listed as an inventor, or just some fanboy's random selection of them. The section title "invented patents" is also... nonsense. This is not what we do in WP. It should not be here, and if it, the section title should be fixed and it should be sourced to one or more secondary sources. Jytdog (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Archiving

Does anyone mind if the archiving timeout is set back to 90 days, where it used to be? With a relatively small talk page, 30 days seems too quick. EdJohnston (talk)

I have changed it to 90 days. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:29, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Education

Ashlee Vance's biography of Elon Musk discusses in Appendix 1 the irregularities around Musk's Penn degrees. The wiki information says he received his degrees at 24 (1995) when Vance says that she "called Penn's registrar and verified" that Penn granted him the degrees in May 1997. I can't edit this article because of protection, so can someone else please make the change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJCaesar (talk • contribs) 01:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@JJCaesar: This appears to contradict the source given, but is not worded exactly. You state irregularities were present, so could you please provide the exact quote from the book, or even offer an image under fair use on an external website? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Here are some select quotes from the book: "While playing detective, O'Reilly unearthed some information about Musk's past that's arguably more interesting than the allegations in the lawsuit. He found that the University of Pennsylvania granted Musk's degrees in 1997 - two years later than what Musk has cited. I called Penn's registrar and verified these findings. Copies of Musk's records show that he received a dual degree in economics and physics in May 1997. ... Musk also had an explanation for the weird timing on his degrees from Penn. 'I had a History and an English credit that I agreed with Penn that I would do at Stanford,' he said. 'Then I put Stanford on deferment. Later, Penn's requirements changed so that you don't need the English and History credit. So then they awarded me the degree in '97 when it was clear I was not going to go to grad school, and their requirement was no longer there. I finished everything that was needed for a Wharton degree in '94. They'd actually mailed me a Wharton degree. I decided to spend another year and finished the physics degree, but there there was that History and English credit thing. I was only reminded about the History and English thing when I tried to get an H-1B visa and called the school to get a copy of my graduation certificate, and they said I hadn't graduated. Then they looked into the new requirements, and said it was fine."

Basically, it should say the Penn degrees were awarded in May 1997, as the facts indicate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJCaesar (talk • contribs) 00:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)  Done

Neural lace paragraph

@Jytdog: readded this paragraph:

Musk has hinted at the existence of Neuralink a few times over the last six months or so. More recently, Musk told a crowd in Dubai, “Over time I think we will probably see a closer merger of biological intelligence and digital intelligence.” He added that “it's mostly about the bandwidth, the speed of the connection between your brain and the digital version of yourself, particularly output." On Twitter, Musk has responded to inquiring fans about his progress on a so-called “neural lace,” which is sci-fi shorthand for a brain-computer interface humans could use to improve themselves.[1]

First, the source provided does not match any of the content. Second, I fail to see how any of this is more relevant to Elon Musk than to Neuralink. I think the relevant information should be correctly cited and moved to Neuralink, as I attempted to do.

References

  1. ^ Grenoble, Ryan (2017-03-27). "Elon Musk Just Launched A New Startup". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2017-04-10.

--Λυδαcιτγ

I have self-reverted - thanks for pointing out that the content was not supported by the sources. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Recent Hyperloop edit

The recent Hyperloop edit links to a reference which requires subscription in order to read the text. A better reference should be found.MaynardClark (talk) 18:15, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me, I will try to find a reference without one. Skim 15:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Musk's time in Canada, and family heritage on his mom's side

A verifiable source on Musk's time in Canada at age 17/18, and his family heritage on his mom's side, including where the name Elon comes from. N2e (talk) 22:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

@N2e: Thanks for sharing. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future as a source

In Elon Musk responds to story of him putting his assistant through a 2-week test it says Musk conceded that the biography overall was not entirely flawed, calling it "mostly correct," but saying that the story was "rife with errors and never independently fact-checked". We should take a grain of salt when using this source. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. It is a verifiable source, it is not the verifiable source. Other sources may, and do in some places, conflict. N2e (talk) 10:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Nationality

Musk was born as a South African, and lived there for his first 18 years. He was in Canada for only 6 years (though he became a citizen), and has been a resident and citizen of the USA for some years. I accept that he should be called SA-born, but why "Canadian American"? He is no longer a Canadian.125.236.202.112 (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I think the use of Canadian or "Canadian-American" here is referring to his ethnic origins.Jooojay (talk) 04:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Canadian Americans are American citizens or nationals who were born in and/or largely grew up in Canada, but later moved into the United States.[citation needed] It can also be used to refer to American-born citizens who either have parents who immigrated from Canada or have significant Canadian ancestry and/or identity. The term is particularly apt when applied or self-applied to people with strong ties to Canada, such as those who have lived a significant portion of their lives or were educated in Canada, and then relocated to the United States. First paragraph of Canadian American. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2017

Net worth in the first paragraph is outdated and is now $21.1B as of 10/12/17 according to Forbes Gradam5 (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: It is impractical to update it frequently. The date is mentioned and so readers will know it is out of date. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2017

IMPOSSIBLE

where in May 1997 he received a Bachelor of Science degree in physics

BECAUSE

In 1995, at age 24, Musk moved to California to begin a PhD

SUGGEST

where in May 1994... 197.91.224.53 (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Typo in the Hyperloop section of the article.

In the Hyperloop section of the article, 1st paragraph, 2nd phrase there is a typos of an 'o' instead of an 'a'.

The mechanism for releasing the concept was an alpha-design document that, in addition to scoping out the technology, outlined a notional route where such a transport system might be built.

Should be

The mechanism for releasing the concept was an alpha-design document that, in addition to scoping out the technology, outlined a national route where such a transport system might be built

Godidier (talk) 06:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello Godidier. "Notional" is an actual word. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

About Amber Heard

A related discussion about Amber Heard and her relationship with Elon Musk is at Talk:Amber Heard#Amber Heard and Elon Musk. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

  • I think it should be discussed here because over there it's so bloody long that I think the point of the dicussion was lost on most people. Anyway, the fact of the situation that no source about relationships will ever be good enough for Wikipedia's exacting standards. Not even if they literally make Instagram posts tacitly saying "we're in a relationship" and "I've bonded with his kids so this is serious".[1][2][3] Of course magazines like People have to add a little bit of puffery like "Amber Heard and Elon Musk just can’t keep their hands off of each other", because that's the celebrity journalism nature. But People is a way better source than rags like the Daily Mail or US Weekly when it comes to these things. Acknowledging sources on relationships doesn't mean we're turning Wikipedia into a gossip encyclopedia because real relationships aren't gossip and no one ever puts things like "Amber Heard and Elon Musk just can’t keep their hands off of each other" on this site anyway.[4] Her dad confirmed the relationship too.[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trillfendi (talk • contribs) 19:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://instagram.com/p/BUtGKm0BCbm/
  2. ^ https://instagram.com/p/BTP1xBzFke5/
  3. ^ https://instagram.com/p/BTPyhtBhdn6/
  4. ^ http://people.com/movies/amber-heard-elon-musk-pda-australia-date/
  5. ^ http://lifestyle.one/grazia/celebrity/news/amber-heard-boyfriend-elon-musk-instagram/

It's been a few months since you posted this here Emir of Wikipedia - there are MANY more citations now in proper news outlets. Unsure why you still have an issue with this and reverted my edits? Jooojay (talk) 18:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC) [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

References

  1. ^ http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/06/elon-musk-breaks-up-with-amber-heard-report-says/
  2. ^ http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/09/entertainment/amber-heard-elon-musk/index.html
  3. ^ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/amber-heard-and-elon-musk-reportedly-split_us_59889188e4b09a4d1ec69fd8
  4. ^ http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-and-amber-heard-have-split-up-after-a-year-over-aspects-of-her-behaviour-2017-8
  5. ^ http://mashable.com/2017/08/07/amber-heard-elon-musk-split/#x.eGhLrkOmqT
  6. ^ http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/hook-ups-break-ups/amber-heard-gets-cosy-with-spanish-hunk-after-split-from-elon-musk/news-story/97f78e05ce702468b7682d80239085aa
  7. ^ http://people.com/celebrity/amber-heard-elon-musk-split/
@Jooojay: The issue is not just about sourcing but whether the relationship is notable enough. I personally think that the improved citations is enough as you have, but I can't overrule the consensus. Let's give it a day or two and if nobody else objects then we'll take the WP:SILENCE to mean that the new consensus is to include the information. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: OK fair enough! Thank you for your consideration. Jooojay (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure that relationship status presented by the post is really a milestone event for the other things Musk is doing. I'm not sure it's actually notable enought to be put into this article. Bknutsen (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)Bknutsen

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2017

I think that a small bit should be added to the Boring company section. In an interview with TED's Head Curator, Chris Anderson, Musk claims that this is a hobby company of his, and that he can reduce the overall cost of digging by at least a factor of 10 by reducing tunnel diameter and efficiency of the boring machine.

[1]

Bknutsen (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)Bknutsen Bknutsen (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Done Providing a reference link will speed response to this type of edit request in the future. Thank you for providing enough information that I was able to find one myself. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

@Eggishorn I referenced the TED conference video from youtube. There's a footnote at the end, that being said though, I'm fairly new to editing articles so I may not have properly followed convention — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bknutsen (talk • contribs) 16:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIwLWfaAg-8

Incorrect year

In this article, the following text appears:

"At the age of 17, Musk was accepted into Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, for undergraduate study. In 1992, after spending two years at Queen's University..."

Musk was born in 1971, so he turned 17 in 1988. So how could "two years at Queen's University" bring us to 1992?? Perhaps if he was "accepted" in 1988 and "enrolled" in 1989, then two years would bring us to 1991; but we still don't get to 1992. Clearly either the year "1992" is incorrect, or there is a lot of "hidden information in the quote above.

My guess is that the year "1992" is just incorrect and should be corrected.

192.251.46.113 (talk) 18:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Might be worth reading Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_3#Education. I do think that you could be onto something. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2017

Add a Honorary Doctorate from AGH Cracow received on 14'th June 2017 to the appropriate list.

Appropriate reference (in Polish) below:

[1]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lagomorph~plwiki (talk • contribs)

Can someone please check the reference for me? I am unable to access it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.agh.edu.pl/fileadmin/default/templates/images/dokumenty/uchwaly_senatu/2017/0614/14_06_2017_83.pdf

very important

Lil Uzi made a song with Pharrell Williams, and they said Elon Musk's name. It is very pivotal that this be added towards Musk's achievements, as it highly surpasses anything he has done.Sam Homes (talk) 00:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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inter-city rocket travel

Should we include this in Elon's intro?

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US768&q=elon+musk+rocket+travel+city&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiS_77I8JbXAhVFzmMKHfg6DBgQvwUIJigA&biw=1024&bih=712

It's a proposal, nothing formally established. 205.153.48.25 (talk) 22:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
It is one of several planned uses for the already-announced and under-active-development new launch vehicles of SpaceX: the BFR. There is more prose and citations in that article if any editor wants to reflect that "additional use". It is well cited, and notable.
Moreover, it is specifically mentioned in the long-form Rolling Stone article from mid-November 2017, now used as a source in the Musk article in several places. Musk calls it "Earth-to-Earth" in that article.
So I would say, yes, it can—and probably should—be included in the article lede as a few words, as long as someone takes the time to more fully explicate it and source it in the body of the article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 16:05, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

African-American ?

Does Musk self-identify as an "African-American" (as opposed to a "South African American")? Could we identify him as such? I didn't find any info on this issue in the article, so if anyone has any, it would be great if they could add it to the article. 2.7.75.184 (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2018

Please change Significaant development on the vehicles began to Significant development on the vehicles because significant is misspelled. Gerard.martin (talk) 04:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done General Ization Talk 05:07, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

PayPal

Shouldn't the name "PayPal" be in the lede? Yes, for people who happen to know, it's implied by X.Com, but PayPal is the consumer-brand name with which Musk is most strongly associated. - Jmabel | Talk 16:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

It is: "... and founder of X.com, which merged with Confinity and took the name PayPal." General Ization Talk 16:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Zolpidem usage

(Reopened Edit request with better title.) --Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Why does his one tweet about nyquil get a section to itself? Seems like its nitpicking. He clearly wouldn't encourage alcohol and drugs to be mixed. 76.119.86.208 (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Jack Frost (talk) 12:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Looks like he is talking about Elon Musk#Zolpidem usage. Also see[1]. I think there is a legitimate issue here: are we giving too much WP:WEIGHT to various tweets? Go to the article and search on the word "Twitter" to see how much content we are sourcing to twitter. Too much? Are we making too much about what appear to be jokes? If I were a celebrity, would my Wikipedia page document the various times I have joked "Note to self: next time, edit Wikipedia after smoking crack" after making an error? (For the record, I never take drugs or alcohol with the sole exception of caffeine.) --Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

it's / its grammar correction

In the "Opinions", the first quote, it says this: You know it's complex phenomenon from simple elements. it's has to be changed to its.

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2018

Elon Musk's net worth as of February, 2018, is $20.4 billion dollars. MoistNuggets (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBriTalk 19:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
@Kuyabribri: The source is given in the article, they just want us to update it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
No change needs to be done right now though as the source currently says the amount stated in the article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2018

Please change "Net Worth" from 20.1 billion to 20.8 billion because Forbes, the currently listed source, has updated. Zennox1 (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done As the net worth counter is in real time, I'm expecting a lot more of these sort of requests in the future. ChamithN (talk) 22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Who is paying for the Solarcity Buffalo factory?

Near the end of article it says NY state is paying $750m to build it, and will then lease it to Solarcity for peanuts. In the Solarcity section it says that Solarcity is committed to building it. They can't both be right. This is very important, right? Boscaswell talk 12:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018

68.33.78.182 (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Remove "Chairman of Solar City" and "Co-chairman of OpenAI" from the right-hand panel, both of which are no longer true.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. qwerty6811 :-) (talk) 17:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I made the edits. That SolarCity was acquired is already sourced, for example under [2]. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:39, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Ambiguity about education

The section on education states: "At the age of 17, Musk was accepted into Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, for undergraduate study. In 1992, after spending two years at Queen's University, Musk transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, where in May 1997 he received a Bachelor of Science degree in physics from its College of Arts and Sciences..."

First of all, this implies that he was 19 in the year 1992. He wasn't. He would've been 19.

Next it states: "In 1995, at age 24, Musk moved to California to begin a PhD in applied physics and materials science at Stanford University, but left the program after two days to pursue his entrepreneurial aspirations..."

So either Musk was at U.Penn pursuing his Bachelor degree or he was in California enrolled for a PhD? Which is it? If both these things are simultaneously true, there should certainly be some clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parijatgarg (talk • contribs) 19:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

He left in 1995 to start his PhD at Stanford but didn't technically graduate until 1997. It is confusing, I agree. Hrodvarsson (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2018

The Hyperloop is a futuristic mode of transportation that consists of passenger pods traveling through tubes at speeds of more than 500 miles per hour. And the first one is being built currently in the desert, north of Las Vegas, Nevada. Alexday001 (talk) 06:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talk • contribs) 13:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2017

Elon Musk Net worth is currently $21.5 Billion USD as of November 2017. On the wiki page, his net worth hasn't been updated since October. Tecboy1066 (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:30, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The article referencing his net worth #18, lists him at 52, but the Wikipedia article has him at 53. 2/14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.29.8.206 (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

The Net worth is $20.3 Billion USD as of March 2018 (https://www.forbes.com/profile/elon-musk). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.111.126.14 (talk) 08:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Addition to Patents

Under the patents section, it should also include a link to the 2014 decision by Musk and Tesla to not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use their technology. The section is for Musk patents in particular but ultimately it was his passion that drove the decision of Tesla sharing their patent bank with the world. Mygraymatter (talk) 05:34, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2018

Number of children should be 6, not 5.

(Their names: Nevada Alexander, twins (Redacted), triplets (Redacted).) Hawwah2312 (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Done Thanks for spotting that. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2018

I think the first sentence should emphasize that Elon Musk is an African-American in the interests of showcasing diversity. To do otherwise is racism and it's highly problematic that Elon musk is not showcased as a successful African immigrant to America. 68.227.118.206 (talk) 02:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Oppose change, on the basis that African-American has a well-defined meaning in the English language, and Elon Musk does not meet the definition. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
The IP knows that and their post is just trolling. I removed the IP's edit request but was reverted. Johnuniq (talk) 10:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

About Errol Musk

Elon specifically states his father did not invest in Zip2 in his latest Rolling Stones feature interview. "One thing he claims is he gave us a whole bunch of money to start, my brother and I, to start up our first company [Zip2, which provided online city guides to newspapers]. This is not true," Musk says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivanalesi (talk • contribs) [1]

References

  1. ^ http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/elon-musk-inventors-plans-for-outer-space-cars-finding-love-w511747

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"Lithium third most abundant element in universe."- Elon Musk quoted

Even though I like this guy I can't take him spreading disinformation like this:
youtu.be/_GBnJNLoBuw?t=22m12s
I think it's a significant point to be made that he can make serious mistakes. Lithium is the 44th most abundant element in this galaxy and 33rd in the Earth's crust. Not third; Oxygen is third, ie. Water is the most abundant mixed atom molecule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements#Solar_system

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/4vbe52/elon_has_got_to_stop_saying_lithuium_is_the_3rd/

There is no "just a mistake" here, he is basing the entire production of electric cars (just all electric cars) on the false assumption of an abundance of Lithium for electric car batteries. This is a major error and/or a serious deception on his part to the investors of both the company and buyers of the cars.

CHARGED: Electric Vehicles Magazine - (Editor’s Note 6/17/16 4PM EST: While onstage, Musk stated that Lithium is the third most common element in the universe which is not accurate. In fact, Lithium is the 33rd most common element in Earth’s crust.)
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/
I don't want to be tactless in the way I insert this into the article, but it is important enough for magazine editors to correct, therefore it is important enough to add to this article, but I think it should be written up by another editor. And to be sure I find it highly suspicious that there is not one mention of Lithium in his article. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 06:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Please be careful to avoid WP:OR when editing the article. In particular, Abundance of elements in Earth's crust is a terrible metric for predicting shortages, and abundance in the universe is just plain stupid (and largely unknown). Helium is pretty abundant in the universe, but are we going to go to the Sun to extract it?
That being said, according to this source Elon is right.[3]
Of course we can do OR here on the talk page to see if a claim makes sense:
  • Lithium (2008) $4,440.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2009) $4,530.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2010) $4,350.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2011) $3,870.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2012) $4,220.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2013) $4,390.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2014) $5,050.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2015) $6,500.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2016) $7,475.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2017) $9,100.00 per metric ton
  • Lithium (2018) $16,500.00 per metric ton
Compare with
  • Iron: $57.86 per metric ton
  • Aluminum: $1,885.29 per metric ton
  • Lead: $2,385.00 per metric ton
  • Copper: $5,719.76 per metric ton
  • Nickel: $8,931.76 per metric ton
  • Molybdenum: $26,000.00 per metric ton
  • Cobalt: $91,500.00 per metric ton
Amount of lithium in a 70 kWh Tesla Model S battery pack: 0.063 metric tons (63 kilograms). That's $1039.50 at today's price, $573.30 at last year's price.
You would do better worrying about cobalt, which is also used in a Tesla battery. 65% of the cobalt produced every year currently comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Speaking of aluminum (third most abundant in the crust), when the Washington monument was constructed in the 1880s it was topped with an aluminum pyramid weighing in at 100 ounces and standing nine inches tall. Aluminum was chosen in the belief that it would be a good lightning rod tip. In 1884, aluminum cost $1 per ounce -- about the same price as silver, and roughly equal to equal to a day's wage for a skilled worker.
Also see:[4] --Guy Macon (talk) 09:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
The issue that I posted has nothing to do with the price. I didn't say he got the price wrong, it's been said in several places that he is getting the abundance of Lithium wrong, both on Earth and in the universe at large. You only make the point with quoting prices, but by showing price fixing can make things worse.
By the way, you may not have realized it but that is Elon Musk's metric not mine... "In particular, Abundance of elements in Earth's crust is a terrible metric for predicting shortages, and abundance in the universe is just plain stupid (and largely unknown)." he's the one you are calling stupid, not me. But as I've said/linked, there is a whole article on the abundance of elements, so it obviously is not "largely unknown." Where is this logic you claim to have; yet you're missing that you're arguing is against Elon Musk not against me. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 01:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I didn't say you were stupid. I said that Elon Musk's metric was stupid. But he did not get the abundance of Lithium in the universe wrong,[5] and I haven't seen him make any claims about the abundance of Lithium in the earth's crust. And yes the price is important. Price is a rough indicator of rarity, production cost and demand, and it is the most important metric if one is discussing whether there is enough Lithium available to make that many Teslas. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

That's funny, your reference shows that Elon Musk's claims about Lithium are wrong. You must be misinterpreting the atomic number with abunancy rank, it would be third on every chart simply for being the third atomic number on the periodic table, which maybe is the same mistake Elon Musk is making. But the fact is, as it says in many places, Lithium is 44th in stellar abundance, and 35th in the Earth's Crust, so Musk is completely wrong to say 3rd.

50.70.236.24 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

RfC about the bias in this article

Shouldn't this article pander only to all the positive of Elon Musk as a biased glowing review of his excellence for mankind and not mention any flaws, since he is so perfect (sarcasm/Already far fromWP:NPOV)?? 50.70.236.24 (talk) 04:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

There is no need to start a WP:RFC for this; it is covered by WP:NPOV. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
It may have been written a bit too sarcastic, and it was regarding how far the article is from WP:NPOV, which made it look slanted in the other direction, but the discussion has already started above the RFC, so it was more of a request for more people. If it were really WP:NPOV it wouldn't be sweeping his mistakes under the carpet and giving him a perfect review. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 01:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
We're not having an RfC about an opinion expressed as a joke. Talk pages are for discussing actionable proposals. Make a proposal and wait for discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

RfC about bias in this article (see main section)

Is there bias in this article and what should be done about it?
Specifically excluding Musk's major mistakes, stating Lithium is 3rd in abundance,
and the many times people have attempted to clear this up, should it be missing from the article?
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/
Here an editor of a magazine has to specifically state that Elon Musk is wrong about Lithium abundance.
50.70.236.24 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Please find something constructive to do. It appears that Musk gave a three hour "performance" and made a mistake during that time. Are you nominating this for the world record of the smallest number of mistakes made in a three-hour performance? Or, are you claiming it is super bad and must be in the article? There cannot be an RfC about a wishy-washy "what should be done about it" issue. Make a proposal (based on a reliable source). Then, if the proposal is not accepted here, start an RfC on the issue of whether the proposal should be accepted. Johnuniq (talk) 05:24, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

If you search the internet with the terms "Elon Musk Lithium" you'll find all kinds of pages/articles ("About 428,000 results"), but if you look for the word lithium in this article you won't find it even once. I find that highly suspicious. I've listed plenty of references, so it appears from my perspective that it is your own personal bias behind the suggestion that I'm not being constructive. Since a veiled threat has been made on my talkpage I'll drop it, but the point has been made here with the 428,000 result Google search and nothing in the article. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Please suggest some text that could be added to this article, with a source that verifies the text. There is no need for such a proposal to be polished text, just provide an idea of what should be included. You might review WP:TP for information on using colons to indent comments. Johnuniq (talk) 08:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

kid-sized submarine

Elon musk has started working with kid-sized submarine for thailand teams that has been trapped. [6] [7]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talk • contribs) 05:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Infobox

Right now the infobox says Citizenship: South Africa (1971–present). Canada (1971–present), United States (2002–present)., but this source [8] says that he applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17. So the 1971 date appears to be incorrect.

Do we know that the Canadian citizenship was granted -- not just applied for -- at age 17? According to [9] If it was granted at age 18 he may have lost his South African citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Oops. Missed something. The ref I cited above says "once they have reached the age of 18 years and they then wish to acquire a further foreign citizenship, they will then have to apply for prior permission to retain their South African citizenship. Failing to do so, they will automatically lose their South African citizenship." So the 2002 US citizenship appears to have taken away may have taken away his South African citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Why "appears to have taken away"? The ref clearly says that it is possible to retain SA citizenship, and there's no reason to assume Musk didn't apply for permission to do so. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Good catch! I have replaced "appears to have taken away" with "may have taken away" above. This is one of the things I love about Wikipedia; sharp eyed editors catching mistakes. BTW here is another source for the 1989 and 2002 dates:[10] --Guy Macon (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The sources [11] and [12] appear to be contradictory: one says he applied for Canadian citizenship at age 17, the other (citing Elon's own words) merely says he filled out a form and got a Canadian passport. One explanation of this apparent contradiction is that he was 'entitled' to Canadian citizenship from birth but did not take up this entitlement and actually 'hold' the citizenship until he applied for (or more correctly, until he was granted) the passport. If this explanation is correct then the dates ought to be changed back to "1989-present" - but a source confirming the distinction between entitlement and actual citizenship would be nice... Rosbif73 (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Tri-country citizenship

The article currently states:

Citizenship

South Africa (1971–present)
Canada (1989–present)

United States (2002–present)

Do each of these countries allow simultaneous citizenship in two other countries? Do we have a source that Musk is currently a citizen of all three, at the same time, in 2018? N2e (talk) 05:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The South African nationality law page states that "a South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship unless they apply for, and receive permission to retain their South African citizenship before acquiring the citizenship of another country". The Canadian nationality law page states that "on 15 February 1977, the restrictions on multiple citizenship disappeared overnight". And the United States nationality law page tells us that the U.S. government "recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens". So (assuming all those to be true – only the SA one is properly sourced) there's no reason Elon couldn't holding all three nationalities provided he applied for and received the requisite permissions from South Africa. But I entirely agree that a recent source would be good. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I have found a piece in The Sunday Times from 2005 that says "Still a South African citizen, Musk has lived in Canada and California for 17 years", see here. Presumably if he was a citizen in 2005, he would still be a citizen now, as it would have been revoked at the acquisition of the Canadian or US citizenship, especially the time of the Canadian citizenship as he refused conscription. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
That's more than good enough as a source for him currently having triple citizenship.
On a related note, a misguided editor changed the 1989 to 1971 with the edit comment "Musk was a Canadian at birth. His mother is Canadian and he inherited his Canadian citizenship automatically."[13] That's wrong. Musk qualified for Canadian citizenship automatically at birth, successfully applied for it in 1989. If you were born outside Canada and at least one of your parents was born in Canada you are eligible for Canadian citizenship. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use Canadian form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Can someone correct the dates error in the Education section?

He can't have moved on to California to embark upon a Ph.D. degree two years before he completed his undergrad qualifications at the University of Pennsylvania in (as the text currently stands) "May 1997". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.217.170.175 (talk) 12:57, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

He left in 1995 but didn't technically graduate until 1997. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps we could make that clearer in the article? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

South African-born

Using "South African-born" in the very beginning of the article appears unwarranted. The only thing of note he did there was being born. We don't call Steve Nash a South African-born Canadian basketball player, or Ted Cruz a Canadian-born American politician, because just like Musk, all they did of significance was having been born there. It is different for articles like Jim Carrey where the person acquires another citizenship much later in life and had already been noteworthy in their country of origin, but for people like Musk, Nash, and Cruz, this is unnecessary. DrJenkins365 (talk) 09:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Musk left South Africa at age of 17, compared to Nash who left at age one, and Cruz who left Canada at age three. Also note that Britannica describes him as "South African-born American", see here. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Per MOS:BLPLEAD, this should be deleted (and I will do so forthwith). Musk's place of birth is not relevant to his notability. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
His place of birth IS notable. Without his place of birth there would be no discussion. There is nothing in your statement "Musk's place of birth is not relevant to his notability" that can contradict this. It is where he was born, it is where he went to school, it is where his personality initially developed. It is part of who he is, psychologically, and socially.--Terry Patterson (talk) 11:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
As of today, all mention of his nationalities and place of birth has been removed from the opening sentence, but mentioned in the second paragraph. IMO this is the right decision - I entirely agree with you that his place of birth and his current and past citizenship are significant notable facts about Musk, but they are not the primary factors that make him notable and thus do not belong in the opening sentence. Rosbif73 (talk) 13:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks.--Terry Patterson (talk) 14:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Thai Cave Rescue

We should have a dedicated section for his amazing and quick contributions to the Thai Cave rescue. Without him and his efforts, nobody would have even cared about the Thai rescue. I sure wouldn't have cared, but he used Rocket parts from the SpaceX, that should be highlighted given the advanced technology that his engineers designed so quickly. Thai cave rescues even thanked him for his practicality and innovative forward contributions at a time of intense peril. It would be useful in future cave rescues if need be. Rwat128 (talk) 16:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Got a source for any of those contributions? All I see are some really interesting ideas (a small, child-sized submarine, a one meter diameter nylon tube (or shorter set of tubes) through the cave network inflated with air) but I hanen't seen any evidence that the Thais accepted any actual help from Musk. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
While it is great to see people from around the world join the effot to rescue the children+coach from the cave, Elon did not have any major direct contribution to this rescue operation. "Without him and his efforts, nobody would have even cared about the Thai rescue" is idiotic and not true. // sikander { talk } 20:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
There could be something in the article about his intervention in the cave rescue, which was rebuffed by all the experts and everyone in charge of the operation. It's an interesting aspect of his character that he believes that he and he alone has the correct solution to major issues, in the teeth of all the evidence. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 13:31, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Do you have even a tiny shred of evidence that he believes that? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Musk was actually responding to someone else's twitter-request to participate. He didn't just impose himself out of some personal caprice, but decided not to ignore the request for his help. So there is no such 'aspect' of his character that Jamesinderbyshire thinks there is.192.252.160.102 (talk) 05:47, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 August 2018

Musk will only collect his full $2.6 billion (in the form of stock options) if Tesla hits growth targets, and some are quite ambitious https://nypost.com/2018/03/24/new-york-taxpayers-gift-to-elon-musk/ Vic Sha (talk) 08:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Please specify what edit you wish to be made to the article. Fish+Karate 12:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 August 2018

In Tham Luang cave rescue section, change "kid-size submarine" to "kid-size submarine", linking to the most specific article, per WP:BUILD. Diego (talk) 08:18, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done @Diego Moya: this page is not currently protected, you may edit directly. — xaosflux Talk 20:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Award and recognition too large

The whole section is quite large and basically just a large list with no further notes. Comparing it to similar sections on e.g. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, it is either much shorter or has more prose in it. I would remove up to half of the list based on notierity of the award or organisation. Chaosquo (talk) 09:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed these easily arguable non-notable awards:
  • "R&D Magazine Innovator of the Year for 2007 for SpaceX, Tesla, and SolarCity."
  • "The Aviation Week 2008 Laureate for the most significant achievement worldwide in the space industry."
  • "Automotive Executive of the Year (worldwide) in 2010 for demonstrating technology leadership and innovation via Tesla. Prior awardees include Bill Ford Jr, Bob Lutz, Dieter Zetsche and Lee Iacocca. Musk is the youngest ever recipient of this award."
  • "In 2010, Musk was elected to the board of trustees of the California Institute of Technology, however no longer holds the position."
  • "In a 2010 Space Foundation survey, he was ranked as the No. 10 (tied with rocketry pioneer and scientist Wernher von Braun) most popular space hero."
  • "In 2011, Musk was honored as a Legendary Leader at the Churchill Club Awards."
  • "As of 2015, Musk serves on the board of advisors of Social Concepts, Inc."
  • "In 2016, The Drive, a division of Time, named Musk the most influential person in the car business and as the second most influential person in the automotive tech sector."
  • "In March 2017, Musk was listed by UK-based company Richtopia at number 3 in the list of 200 Most Influential Philanthropists and Social Entrepreneurs."
For anything else I feel it's best to have a discussion here. ⠀TOMÁSTOMÁSTOMÁS⠀TALK⠀ 15:52, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Canadian?

So he was born in South Africa, moved to Canada when he was 17, then moved to the US when he was 19. And we are calling him a Canadian? I don't think so. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:33, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

We should not call a Canadian citizen of Canadian descent a Canadian? --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Definitely not. The "Canadian citizen" comes from his two-years in Canada - the rest of his life has been in South Africa or the US. And many people have dual US-Canadian citizenship; it is slightly more inconvenient to go to school and impossible to accept certain job offers without applying for citizenship.
The "Canadian descent" claim, while technically correct, is also dubious. His father, Errol Graham Musk, was South African-born and has English, Dutch Afrikaner, and French Huguenot, ancestry. His mother, Maye (Maiden name Haldeman) Musk, was born in Canada but moved to South Africa when she was two years old. She has English, German and Swiss, ancestry, and her father and mother were both born in the US. If ancestry is the way to determine nationality, you might as well call Elon Musk a Frenchman. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
A bit of interesting trivia: according to[14], Elon Musk figured out that it would be easier to become an American citizen as a Canadian than a South African. According to [15], "Elon made his move after he graduated high school. Though he already felt like an American, he'd done research and concluded that it would be easier to obtain American citizenship as a Canadian immigrant rather than as a South African one."
Marginally related: [16][17] --Guy Macon (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
This is not a source: It is a buzzfeed-style website that does not generate original content and instead copies text with a link to the source. For the statement about Elon Musk becoming Canadian, there is no functioning link to any source. Furthermore, the very same text appears in the 2nd source posted (the snopes source) which is effectively calling into the question the validity of that very text. There is no cited reliable information that Elon Musk considered himself American and only sought Canadian citizenship because it was easier. For that reason, I still reference my earlier comment, that there is not yet any reliable source in this discussion to indicate that having Canadian citizenship and living in Canada for a pivotal period of life makes one not Canadian. Sundin14 (talk) 21:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
This is factually inaccurate - how would it be difficult to go to school in Canada without citizenship? The vast majority of international students in Canada do not require applying for citizenship to study there, nor do they seek to obtain it. There needs to be an established reason why having Canadian citizenship is not in and of itself grounds to apply the demonym "Canadian" to that person. So far in this discussion, the argument I am criticizing here is the only argument that seeks to argue against Canadian citizenship being grounds to use the demonym. With that argument nullified, I see no argument in here right now against the reverting back to it saying "Canadian American". One would need to establish why both citizenship and having lived there would not be grounds for the demonym, with precedents from other Wikipedia articles, which I have not yet seen posted here. For that reason, I feel it should be reverted back to its original form until that argument and precedent can be established. (5/18/2018) Sundin14 (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Also, I want to challenge to the comment that his ancestry is not Canadian, argued by listing prior European ancestries of his Canadian mother. Elon Musk has explicitly stated that he is Half Canadian [18] Sundin14 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

He has different citizenships which makes it hard to tell, but since he is currently living and working in the US it's for now probably best to call him American. B-Movie Fan (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

He is a Canadian American. To call him a full American is misleading. GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2018

Elon Musk is a triple citizen so the first line should say he's a "...South African-born, Canadian-American..." Wizkoo (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: We've been through this before. MOS:BLPLEAD#Context isn't particularly explicit regarding how to deal with multiple citizenship, but consensus seems to be that "Canadian" doesn't belong in the lead as it isn't relevant to his notability. If anything I'd venture to say that his place of birth doesn't really belong in the lead either, for the same reason. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Second the suggestion to remove place of birth from the lead. It is well covered in the body. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Is it being well covered in the body not an argument for inclusion rather than exclusion in the lead? Hrodvarsson (talk) 20:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
No. Otherwise we wouldn't have a body and a lead. WP:LEAD and WP:BLPLEAD tell us what to include. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
All the information in the lead is covered in the body. If being covered in the body is a reason to leave something out of the lead, the lead would not have a purpose. The born in South Africa detail establishes context. It would disorientate the reader to say Musk moved to Canada at 17 without mentioning where he originated from. We could remove the moved to Canada detail too and give the impression that Musk was born in America and for some reason attended a Canadian university for a couple years, but this would run contrary to WP:LEAD as the reader would have to read the whole article to have an overview of the topic. Hrodvarsson (talk) 14:05, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
"South African-born" and "Canadian" have been removed from the opening paragraph per MOS:BLPLEAD. I don't think anyone is suggesting also removing the information from from the second paragraph of the lead. Rosbif73 (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Looks fine the way it is now. I am always amazed at the amount of effort some people put into trying to label famous people as being from their favorite country. Don't they have anything better to do with their time? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Casting aspersions and making insults on Wikipedia, while criticizing someone else for the use of their time? Alright, have a nice day fella. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Okay, I am fine with removing "South African-born" from the opening paragraph if there is strong opposition. I was responding to the suggestion of removing the born in South Africa detail from the "lead" entirely. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Rei Would you like to comment here? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

This is so typically Wikipedia - Musk is South African, not just South African born and yet that information isn't in the lead. He isn't "American" by any normal persons interpretation of what that means. That he holds multiple citizenships is information that should be in the article not the lead. The lead, as present, is not just misleading - it is incorrect.

79.69.114.153 (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no clear direction on this issue, unfortunately. The convention across all high-quality articles is something like this: "[Name] (birth-death) is/was a [nationality] [type of person] who...." With people like Musk, there's no specific instruction on how to handle the nationality part. WP:BLPLEAD only talks about including birthplaces in the lead, like saying "[So-and-so] was born in New York City and...", or like in certain European-language encyclopedic conventions in which they include birthplaces and death places in the person's date range (check the German Wikipedia article for any famous person to see examples of this). Here, I think "is a South African-American" or "South African-born American" is best. Musk grew up entirely in South Africa and still has a pronounced South African accent, and this seems most appropriate to him personally.  White Whirlwind  咨  01:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It's SouthbAfrican/Canadian GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:31, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

"Controversy" section?

Elon has been involved in a lot of Twitter drama lately, is it worth it to mention those conflicts? XYZt (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

See WP:CRITS for details, but putting a grab bag or garbage dump section at the bottom of any article us usually a bad idea, for many of the same reasons as WP:MISCELLANY/Trivia sections, or WP:POPCULTURE sections. It is a kind of POV fork, and it arbitrarily takes content out of chronological order, or whatever other system the rest of the article is using. Most bios describe the person's life in chronological order, so at whatever point in time they were criticized or involved in a controversy is where that content belongs. Or if you have one section where all the SpaceX stuff is, then all the SpaceX controversy goes there, not off somewhere else. If another section is all Tesla, then the Tesla controversy belongs there.

Because of the special reluctance that Wikipedia has to include negative content about living persons, I'd wait a few days to a few weeks, or even more, before adding this stuff, and only if citing the best quality sources. It is not urgent that a Wikipedia article be up to the minute current with the latest headlines.

All that being said, yes. The twitter drama and cave rescue drama does belong in the article, in a appropriate section, and after the dust has settled. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

It's already notable. The Musk tweet just made the Financial Times, one more RS and it's definitely noteworthy enough to pass BLP as is. Two if you want to be super-sure - David Gerard (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Whoops, shoulda checked: Guardian, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, CNet, Fortune, Buzzfeed News, Sydney Morning Herald ... it's international news at that. There's no reasonable cause to delay this a few weeks - David Gerard (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, that's technically true. There are good enough sources to include this stuff. But that doesn't necessitate that you have to add it today. Any negative fact about a living person can turn out to be something else tomorrow: mistaken identity, hacked account, ulterior motives. It's very rare and unlikely, especially when a professional publication has fact checked it. But it does happen. And there is run of the mill nuance, mitigating facts that come to light once there is time for detailed investigation.

On the other hand, what reasons do we have to feel like we have to add this content immediately? None. If the article fails to mention this controversy for a few days, even for a few weeks, so what? In some sense, it helps remind everyone that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, which is always helpful.

The fact that it is covered in every major news outlet around the globe ensures that nobody has missed out on this news. It isn't as if leaving it out of this article will mean someone is unaware of it. It only underscores that WP is not a newspaper and should never feel the slightest pressure to keep up with the very latest developments.

So whatever we write today might be minimally adequate, but what we write in two days or ten days will be significantly better. I would say the same on any BLP. Be a sloth. Take your sweet time. Wikinews is a great outlet for those itching to write something right now this second. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

What isn't new is his use of Twitter to enter into extended insult trading, which seems pretty important to the article in terms of fleshing out what kind of character he is. The latest development is that he calls <a diver>, one of the leading British cave experts on the site and a key planner in the rescue, a "pedo" by Twitter to his 22m followers without a shred of evidence, because <the diver> had the temerity to denigrate Musk's proposals. [19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesinderbyshire (talk • contribs)
We will wait and see what comes out of this. If he has exposed someone who is a "pedo" then we should be thanking him instead of saying an insult trader. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
It's outrageous that Musk can label someone like this and that is taken as a fact waiting to be disproven here in Wikipedia. Did I miss the takeover by the Cult of Musk? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
If you are going to find the Cult of Musk on Wikipedia then you have come to the right page, but even still such people must follow the sources and not their own research. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
"If he has exposed someone who is a "pedo" then we should be thanking him instead of saying an insult trader." How can you say that? He provided absolutely no substantiation for the assertion, and he HAS removed the offending tweets. He made the comment, and unlike what the article says, <diver> is as of the date of this post still considering legal action. "... <diver> considered legal action against Musk over the tweet." is extremely premature, and clearly NOT substantiated by the link. It needs to be sorted out. Part of the problem is the US Speech Act, which prevents libel judgments in the UK and elsewhere being enforced in the US on the grounds that they undermine American standards of free speech.--Terry Patterson (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I suggest a rule of thumb, for hot news: why not hold off until enough time has passed for monthly publications to cover the events? Daily news reporters don't have time for much deliberation, but after the monthlies weigh in, we've probably heard it all. It's not mandatory; I'm only saying it's a wise practice. By that standard, there is no reason not to add details about Musk's history of insults and ill-considered tweets. The sourcing is there: [20][21][22][23][24][25]. (I'm not saying these are the sources you should cite; just giving examples)

Considering again what the role of an encyclopedia is, nobody should come to this article to catch up on the latest news about the cave rescue controversy, but someone who is reading about that in the news is very likely to turn to an encyclopedia for history and context about Musk's outbursts in years past. It's practicality the definition of encyclopedic (keeping a close eye on the rules of BLP). --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

This is coming across as special pleading - David Gerard (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
What pleading is necessary? You aren't forbidden from going ahead and adding this content now. I've observed that such an impatient approach to BLPs creates unnecessary drama that wouldn't happen if editors took their time, but if you don't agree, you're allowed to go ahead with it now. You might want to consider that writing full coverage of unforced verbal errors by Musk over the years would plant you on firmer ground against anyone who would criticize it. If the article contains full context, adding coverage of the cave rescue kerfuffle makes all the more sense.

Controversy garbage dump sections are still dumb though. Put it up in the main body of the article, not tacked on to the end. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

this is ridiculous of course the article should be up to date sometimes I think people are you get too obsessed with the rules and what Wikipedia is not to realize that Wikipedia should be up-to-date. It seems to me that Wikipedia is so concerned about blp standards that it's made a common mistake which is it's going to fall and no negative information can be added because God forbid there actually be negative information about a living person GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of Thud

Should we remove Thud as one of Musk's projects? Doesn't seem to be anything other than the tweets he sent out, and articles covering those tweets. ⠀TOMÁSTOMÁSTOMÁS⠀TALK⠀ 16:36, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Ancestry

According to ethnicelebs.com (which cites geni.com, genealogy.com and wikitree.com):[26]

Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, Transvaal, South Africa. He now lives in the U.S.

His father, Errol Graham Musk, is South African-born, and has English, Dutch Afrikaner, and French Huguenot, ancestry.

His mother, Maye (Haldeman), a model and dietician, is Canadian-born, from Regina, Saskatchewan, and has English, and some German and Swiss-German, ancestry.

His first name, Elon, is likely after the middle name of his own maternal great-grandfather, John Elon Haldeman.

Elon is the brother of Kimbal Musk, a businessperson, and Tosca Musk, a producer and director.

Elon has six children with his former wife, Canadian author Justine Musk.

Elon’s paternal grandfather was Walter Henry James Musk (the son of Harry Musk and Lucy Frances Champion). Walter was born in Pretoria, South Africa.

Harry Musk was born in Exning, Suffolk, England, and was the son of Eliza.

Lucy Frances Champion was born in Caledon, South Africa, the daughter of John Irish Champion and Jacoba Louisa Theron.

Elon’s paternal grandmother was Cora Amelia Robinson (the daughter of John Robinson and Breghie Elizabeth Theron).

John Robinson was born in Liverpool, England, the son of Levi Robinson and Matilda Marsh.

Breghie Elizabeth Theron was born in Beaufort West, South Africa, the daughter of Johannes Nicolaas Theron and Amelia Elenora van Vuuren.

Elon’s maternal grandfather was Joshua Norman Haldeman (the son of John Elon Haldeman and Almeda Jane Norman). Joshua was born in Minnesota.

John Elon Haldeman was born in Illinois, the son of John O. Haldeman and Evaline [?]

Almeda Jane Norman was born in Minnesota, the daughter of Joshua Norman and Almeda [?]..

Elon’s maternal grandmother was Winnifred “Wyn” Josephine Fletcher, the daughter of Harold Fletcher.

Way too much detail for a Wikipedia BLP, but I wanted to document the claim here in case the website goes down. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I iterate my belief that "extended genealogies" are poor material for biographies of living persons. Ancestry.com now has given me on the order of four hundred+ notable likely relatives (i.e. with Wiki articles, at least) and I find such lists to be fun, but not encyclopedic. Where the relatives are not even notable, not even fun. Collect (talk) 13:15, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Agree. Totally useless for inclusion in the article. Useful as a quick reference for use during the endless debates on this talk page of the form "His paternal grandfather was from Freedonia and his mother spent 3 years in Elbonia, so that makes him a South African-Elbonian-Freedonian-American". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:07, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, genealogy sites are usually not WP:RS as they're made up from user submissions - and I've seen plenty of stuff on them that is compete nonsense. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:26, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Not reliable, to the point we've given it to a bot User_talk:XLinkBot/RevertList#EthniCelebs.com. --Ronz (talk) 17:11, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Nationality

Arguments, where policy based, largely focused on different interpretations of MOS:BLPLEAD and MOS:OPENPARABIO with some editors citing these as providing guidance on the basis that opening sentences should not be overburdened, while other editors cited the lack of specificity in these as evidence of flexibility in approach. Ultimately, neither argument was stronger than the other and - with 14 editors registering decipherable opinions - no option received a majority of support, let alone a consensus. The discussion closed with Rosbif73 suggesting that it might be worth revisiting the MOS:BLPLEAD and MOS:OPENPARABIO guidelines to achieve consensus on a better solution, or at least clarify the existing guidance and this is probably the next step, realistically, at which time the phrasing of the opening sentence here could be reexamined. Chetsford (talk) 00:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the opening sentence describe Musk as:

  1. a South African-born...
  2. an American...
  3. a South African-American...
  4. a South African-born American
  5. (other) or
  6. nationality omitted?

THE DIAZ userpage • talk • contribs 23:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Survey

  • D. MOS:BLPLEAD gives very few guidelines on how to describe a multi-citizen, but it seems that Musk is obviously notable for his works in the United States as well as his being from South Africa (vocality on South African issues and speaking with a heavy accent). He's notable for being from South Africa, and also for being a U.S. citizen. THE DIAZ userpage • talk • contribs 23:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
  • D. Second choice B or F. In particular, I reject any attempt to call him Canadian based upon the two years he spent in Canada with the express purpose of making it easier to become an American citizen or based upon his US-born English/German/Swiss mother. BTW, "African-American" has an existing meaning which makes "South African-American" confusing to many readers. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Modified 17:12, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
  • F. (i.e. as today, with no mention of his nationalities and place of birth in the the opening sentence, but details given in the second paragraph). Musk's place of birth and his citizenships are not the primary factors that make him notable and thus do not belong in the opening sentence. They are, however, sufficiently notable facts about him to be worthy of inclusion in the second paragraph of the lead. MOS:BLPLEAD and more specifically MOS:OPENPARABIO mentions birth place, though not nationality: Birth and death places, if known, should be mentioned in the body of the article, and should appear in the lead if relevant to notability, but not in the opening brackets alongside the birth and death dates [my emphasis]. Also note MOS:LEADSENTENCE: Try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • B. MOS:OPENPARABIO recommends including "the country of which the person is a citizen" for context. D is justifiable, but I'd argue that Musk is far more notable for being an entrepreneur than for being South African-born, and the second paragraph already starts with his place of birth. The article itself does not mention Musk's views on South Africa or his accent. C0617470r (talk) 09:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • F. It reads perfectly well as it is, and doesn't try to cram massive amounts of information into the first few sentences. Black Kite (talk) 11:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • D or B, per guideline 3 of MOS:OPENPARABIO. I argued for "South African-born American" above and I personally prefer that option, but just "American" is fine. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • B as per C0617470r. ⠀TOMÁSTOMÁSTOMÁS⠀TALK⠀ 01:01, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
  • C or D. His dual citizenship must be respected and acknowledged. WWGB (talk) 01:28, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Whatever option (listed or otherwise) most accurately reflects the WP:WEIGHT of descriptors used in sources, obviously. This inquiry is long on proposals but short (that is to say, complete devoid of) any objective, policy and source-based explanation of the value of those options. Respondents are therefore responding with completely subjective assessments based on idiosyncratic criteria, with predictably scatter-shot results. But policy is abundantly clear on how this determination is meant to be made; not on our best independent rational of which option makes sense, but rather how WP:reliable sources describe the subject in general.
If respondents can be provided with some degree of understanding of the sources here (which should have been a part of the previous discussion of this matter before; incidentally, some degree of talk page effort to iron the issue out should have preceded as well) then they will be able to make an objective policy-based determination of that issue. If things proceed as they have been, on the other hand, this discussion is doomed to a no-consensus outcome (and even if it doesn't end that way, its result will be very flimsy against future challenges as not based in policy but rather just the random outcome of idiosyncratic voting). Snow let's rap 06:35, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Are we talking about the same person? Maye Musk, Canadian born? I agree with your above comment which is why I wrote but South African Born Canadian American is ridiculous. The lead as is is just fine. Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
My apologies. I misremembered what I wrote on this page earlier: "His mother, Maye (Maiden name Haldeman) Musk, was born in Canada but moved to South Africa when she was two years old. She has English, German and Swiss, ancestry, and her father and mother were both born in the US. If ancestry is the way to determine nationality, you might as well call Elon Musk a Frenchman.".
Note to self: Next time, smoke crack AFTER editing Wikipedia... --Guy Macon (talk) 01:34, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
  • NOTA He is an American citizen who, apparently, also has South African and Canadian citizenship. Handling tri-nationality in a short sentence is nigh impossible. One might be able to say Musk was born in South Africa and now also has Canadian and American citizenship. Which is as close to being accurate as anything. Collect (talk) 13:10, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
  • F. The details are explained well enough in the following sentences. No need to cram all that stuff into a single sentence. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
  • D - C is awkward and the others leave out important information. Seraphim System (talk) 04:05, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

The main problem with including one or more nationalities is the endless edit wars that we have seen, with American, Canadian and South-African all being added and removed repeatedly from the opening sentence. By relegating this information to the second paragraph, where it can be explained properly, it becomes less contentious. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

That suggestion makes a lot of sense to me, but as someone who has responded to dozens of random RfC notices to these BLP nationality debates over the years, I can tell you that getting editors to forgo any mention of nationality in the lead is probably a WP:SNOW no-go, more's the pity. Snow let's rap 06:39, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Were those RfCs for historical figures of disputed nationalities, or cases like this where someone is clearly at least a dual national? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:49, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Most edit wars about nationality are caused by someone
[A] insisting` that someone belongs to their favorite nationality (they tend to do this on multiple BLPs),
[B] Insisting that the information b`e in the infobox, lead, or both, and
[C] `edit warring and treating the article like a WP:BATTLEFIELD.
In this case, pretty much nobody has a problem with American or South African, and I doubt that anyone would suggest removing either if not for the nationality-pushers trying to label him as Canadian based upon his two-years in Canada.
"Elon made his move [to Canada] after he graduated high school. Though he already felt like an American, he'd done research and concluded that it would be easier to obtain American citizenship as a Canadian immigrant rather than as a South African one."[27]`--Guy Macon (talk) 14:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Honestly though, Guy, you're only strengthening the case for why it may be smartest to either avoid the nationality label in the lead entirely or replace common nouns with a concise description of where he has been a resident. Because your line of analysis, while perfectly rational and reasonable to my ear, is nevertheless nothing short of pure WP:Original research: "Look, we have a source saying that he only viewed Canada as a means to an end. Ergo, he was never a "true" Canadian." Ok, fair enough, but another person may have a definition of citizenship, residency, or other aspect of nationality which views intent to stay as irrelevant. And in order to litigate that point, you each have to fall back on increasingly convoluted and subjective arguments pulling more and more facts and more and more personal analysis. That's just not how content decisions are meant to be made on this project.
And yet, that's all that's happening here, outside of Rosbif's suggestion; pretty much every single !vote selection above is just each editor selecting the flavour of WP:OR theory that makes the most idiosyncratic sense to them, without a single reference to WP:RS or WP:WEIGHT, which is how policy actually directs these questions be established. The choices here, if people were following policy, are either go with what the sources converge on by way of convenience or just eschew simple descriptors and opt for detailed coverage, either in the lead or omitted until later. But nationality is clearly something that blindsides editors via sympathetic reactions (even those that insist they are not of the class usually subject to it) at a high rate, because fully one-in-three times that I arrive at one of these nationality-in-the-lead RfCs by notice, the discussion is proceeding much as it is here. And the consequence is what you are seeing here: the !votes are all over the place precisely because the objective WP:WEIGHT test, that usually converges experienced editors on a common shared methodology for analysis, is completely absent, and everyone is instead employing their favourite "common sense" WP:OR metrics. And when you have a number of choices in an area of plurality of perspectives like this, it pretty much guarantees a "no consensus" deadlock.
In a couple of weeks, when a closer does in fact cap the discussion as no consensus, local editors here should instead try re-approaching this matter through the standard WP:WEIGHT process. If that can't succeed because the sources are too vague or too inconsistent, I would suggest the only option left will be to cobble the descriptions together into a summary of Musk's immigration history. Snow let's rap 03:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
You make some very good points. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! I've been known to get my foot on the ball every once in a while. :) Snow let's rap 04:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Given the above, and the fact that this isn't the first time nationality has been an issue in BLP opening sentences, might it be worth revisiting the MOS:BLPLEAD and MOS:OPENPARABIO guidelines to achieve consensus on a better solution, or at least clarify the existing guidance? Rosbif73 (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Musk was a Canadian citizen at birth

If his mother is Canadian. He is a Canadian at birth.

That's how the laws work--162.216.46.182 (talk) 05:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

No, that is not how the laws in Canada work. Ignoring the fact that you have confused "Canadian" with "Canadian citizen", if you were born outside Canada and at least one of your parents was born in Canada you are eligible for Canadian citizenship. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate (Proof of citizenship) - adults and minors. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship.
And no we are not going to call Musk a Canadian. He was a South African at birth and is currently an American. This has been discussed extensively on this page. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

It's my understanding that citizenship is automatic. Kind of like how Ted Cruz was a Canadian citizen at birth (he later had to renounce this). I don't care about identifying Musk as a Canadian, but his infobox said he became a Canadian in 1989 (before I changed it to 1971)

"There are many laws and rules that affect if your children are Canadian. Most children born to Canadian parents before April 17, 2009, were citizens at birth. "

Check out this link: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=365&top=5

--Wiseoleman17 (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

If you believe that Canada forces Canadian citizenship on citizens of other nations without the person in question applying for Canadian citizenship, you are mistaken. The following countries do not allow dual citizenship and may consider being a Canadian citizen as valid grounds for revoking an existing citizenship in that country: Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan, Burma, Bahrain, Botswana, Japan, China, Czech Republic, Fiji, India, Indonesia, Ecuador, Estonia, Iran, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Japan, Peru, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Chile, Kiribati, Korea, Kuwait, Latvia, Singapore, Slovakia, Ecuador, Lithuania, Solomon Islands, Spain, Fiji, Malaysia, Mauritius, Netherlands, United Arab Emirates, Romania, Mexico, Nepal, Venezuela, Norway, Zimbabwe, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Are you not familiar with the Ted Cruz situation. He was born in Canada to an American mother and Cuban father. He was a natural born American. However, being born in Canada he was also automatically a Canadian at birth. He had to renounce his citizenship a few years ago even though he never formally made an application. Admittedly this is a different situation as he was born in Canada. But the point is you can be granted citizenship automatically. Also, South Africa in absent from you list --Wiseoleman17 (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Of course South Africa isn't on the list. South Africa, like the US and Canada, allows dual and triple citizenship. But the government of Canada did not make its laws just for Elon Musk. They made them for everyone, including those who were born in countries that do not allow dual citizenship and who have at least one Canadian parent. If Canada just made them citizens at birth, they could be denied citizenship and deported by the country that doesn't allow dual citizenship. It is very likely that the Supreme Court of Canada would void any such law if it existed, which it doesn't.
The reason why the Canadian laws say you are automatically a citizen if, like Ted Cruz, you are born in Canada is because this is unlikely to cause any problems with citizenship in any other country. I know of no county that does not allow dual citizenship that also automatically makes a person born in another country a citizen. As far as I can tell every such country either has a rule saying that in such cases you have to apply for citizenship and renounce your citizenship in the other country or a rule saying that in such cases you are not eligible to be a citizen. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs to understand that when it's edited correctly, it should remain so. Musk is a Canadian citizen since birth. His mother was born in Canada and even if he claimed citizenship in 1989, the 2009 changes to the law retroactively and automatically made him a Canadian citizen since birth. That 1989 date needs to be changed to his birth year date of 1971 and left alone. There is nothing to debate. This is straight from the Canadian government:

First generation born outside Canada who was granted Canadian citizenship before April 17, 2009 [paragraph 3(1)(h)] Citizen’s date of birth: between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977

Paragraph 3(1)(h) recognizes as Canadian citizens persons born outside Canada to a Canadian parent between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977, and who did not become citizens by descent, but who were granted citizenship under section 5 of the 1977 Act before April 17, 2009. Under this paragraph, such persons are recognized as citizens by descent as a result of the legislative amendments on April 17, 2009, instead of citizens by way of grant [pursuant to subsection 3(6)], and their citizenship is retroactive to their date of birth [pursuant to paragraph 3(7)(e)]. --SCan1867 (talk) 00:22, 02 September 2018 (UTC)

Nobody cares about your WP:OR concerning your interpretation of Canadian law. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate (Proof of citizenship) - adults and minors. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship.
If you want to claim that Canada forces citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship and who may lose their citizenship of the country they were born in because they were forced to become Canadian citizens against their will, find a reliable secondary source that supports your claim. And why you are at it, please explain the purpose of Canada's form CIT 0001 and explain why it is that Musk filled out that form at the age of 17. Why would he apply for and be granted Canadian citizenship if he was already a Canadian citizen? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)


First off, all countries impose (force) citizenship on people. Nationality Law allows countries the right to determine who their citizens are. For example, in the United States, people born within borders of the country are automatically citizens. They are not asked if they want the citizenship or not, the United States automatically recognizes those people as citizens (whether they want it or not). If they don't want it, they have to renounce the citizenship and pay over two thousand dollars. Second, at the time Musk applied for the citizenship, the law was different. The Canadian government changed the law in 2009 and 2015. As I quoted directly from the official Canadian government website, they did in fact make all Canadians in the first generation abroad automatically and retroactively citizens back to the date of birth. Therefore, those people who became citizens earlier that were in the first generation abroad (i.e. Musk in 1989) are no longer recognized as being citizens from that date. They are now recognized as being citizens since birth (which for Musk is 1971). There is no need for any other sources. It's right there. You clearly do not know anything at all about Nationality Law and what the words automatic and retroactive mean. Yes, countries do grant citizenship to people without their consent all the time and they do change their laws. And yes, even though at the time he had to file the paperwork to become a citizen, his citizenship is no longer recognized as beginning on that date, but now it is recognized since his birth, and that is without consulting him. SCan1867 (talk) 04:22, 07 September 2018 (UTC)

Read WP:OR and WP:RS, then provide a citation to a reliable secondary source that backs up your claims. You might also want to find a reliable secondary source explaining why an alleged "Canadian citizen since birth" would feel a need to apply for citizenship using Candian form CIT 0001. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Early Childhood

Was just noticing that the text of the last sentence of the first paragraph is identical to the text of the second paragraph. One of either should be struck.

Edschminke (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Have made this an edit protected request (what edshminke means is that the last sentence ("He has a half-sister, and half-brother.") of the first paragraph of Elon_Musk#Early_childhood is the same as the text of the last sentence of the next paragraph)Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 Done; that whole paragraph was duplicated. Yunshui 雲水 13:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

"Musk responded to Mark's censure" should read "Musk responded to Zuckerberg's censure". LeverageSerious (talk) 11:46, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

 Done Yunshui 雲水 13:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
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