Talk:Devendrakula Velalar

Controversial Claim

The title of the page Devendra Kula Velalar is a controversial title, the name which is claimed by certain community in tamilnadu called pallars, and this claim is heavily opposed by those communities which already are identified by the velalar name. I have added a disclaimer to this article that the name "Devendra Kula Velalar" is a controversial claim due to the following facts.

Fact#1: There is no community in tamilnadu with the name Devendra Kula velaalar. This name is not officially recognised in the gazette notification or in any of the government community certificates.

Fact#2: The pallar community were never identified as velalar at any point of history. They have not given any proof or reference so far in this article to support their claim. The references given in this page do not provide any substantiation or proof to establish the validity of this name.

Fact#3: The name "Velalar" is a community name and not a occupational name. The pallars are trying to establish a false notion that velalar means farmer, which is wrong. →Rvptiger18 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

This whole article is a duplicate article of already existing article.

Devendrakula Velalar is a duplicate article of already existing article titled Pallar. I request administrator to initiate necessary action to remove this entire page or add a redirect to the page Pallar. This page is filled with disputed claims and is unworthy of being in wikipedia.EruTheLord (talk) 15:07, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Nope it's not an existing article, as pallar doesn't represent the whole Devendrakula velalar community. The Devendrakula velalar community is made up of Devendra kulathar, kudumbar, kadaiyar, kaaladi, pallar, pannadi, vathriyar. What is the dispute in this. You are the one who is making it as a dispute, so explain your statements before removing the existing ones. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 08:12, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

No. Pallar is just a title not community and so are other titles. They are title denoting same community they are interchangeable. Therefore pallar page is enough this is a duplicate and must be removed. You must explain your propaganda about kings caste. You are the one creating controversy by claiming chola kings as Pallars. EruTheLord (talk) 09:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The pair of you need to start providing reliable sources to support your claims here. - Sitush (talk) 15:32, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Uhh I am not claiming the whole chola kings as chola caste, the two kings provided are the one being mention.What you mean by tittle than why is it being recognised as a community in the government records. The anthropology report says all the 7 community are the same and they can be called as Devendrakula Velalar. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 18:26, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Anthropology report doesn't mean a thing. Government has not yet recognised the title Devendra Kula vellalar. EruTheLord (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I note that EruTheLord is socking. That said, I do have doubts about this article so let's start from the top. Please can someone provide a quote from Venkatasubramanian, T. K. (1993). Societas to Civitas. Kalinga Publications Press. p. 74. ISBN 9788185163420. I'm not convinced it is a great source anyway but I'd like to know what it actually says about this issue. - Sitush (talk) 17:09, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, note that we are going to have to bin citation 6 from Shodghanga - we do not use those theses because their quality is so variable. This has been discussed at WT:INB. Also, cite 7 will have to go because it is very clearly taken from a snippet view of the source and thus lacks context - if you cannot see the whole source, don't cite it. - Sitush (talk) 17:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, per what has been said at Talk:Pannadi#Subcaste, the Venkatasubramian source and associated statement really should be removed pending clarification or an alternate source. - Sitush (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes. This is a duplicate article. Already a article exists for pallar. Karikalan2013 (talk) 06:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Citation

Give citation for population distribution it is not having any proof . So I was right to remove it. EruTheLord (talk) 17:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Also remove venkatasubramanian and associated statements.EruTheLord (talk) 17:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

There was proof for the distribution and it was removed from there if I am not mistaken. Why was is it being removed. Explain things here before removing!!! Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 18:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

you mean venkatasubramaniam 1993? That was to be removed.Also use indent. EruTheLord (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Let's revert everything back to how it was first and we will start discussing abt the ones we have to remove, as it makes it easier to understand which one has to be removed and which ones stay. We can come to a conclusion as well regarding this disputes rather then it continues. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 04:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

It's now how it was, let's come to a conclusion together on the disputes mutually then we will take action according to it. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 04:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

It is tedious that way you can provide a better proof and after that you van revert. It is established that venkatasubramanian should be removed. There is no point in reverting. EruTheLord (talk) 05:17, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Now it's messy, as you have removed more than that. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Looks like few other sources have been removed as well, why is it so? Venkatasubramaniam the quote will be provided and then we can discuss abt it. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 05:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

No he also said remove citation 6 and 7. But I did not delete associated statements. Only venkatasubramanian and associated statements were removed. FYI. EruTheLord (talk) 05:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Why was the water float festival removed? Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 10:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Another 2 references was also removed, give your explanation for it regarding the chola kings and water irrigation Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 11:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Citation 6 and 7 were to be removed did you not read the talk page? First read that and come here. EruTheLord (talk) 12:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes I know, which are the particular ones refers to 6&7 from the removed ones? Bcs you have removed more statements, so specify the ones Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 13:57, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

@EruTheLord please discuss before doing changes, as you are removing on your own as usual! Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 17:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Venkatasubramanian and associated statement was to be removed already. That was the consencus. Dont understand your concern. EruTheLord (talk) 18:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I see, he has requested for the quote for it, I was busy a bit so wasn’t able to provide it and we can discuss everything here, I will revert my talk on Sitush talk page and let’s make our discussion here. Mamallarnarashimavarman (talk) 18:28, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Inscription

@DESiegel: (and others.) As a run-of-the-mill US person, I have respect for other people's origin stories. I have attempted to paraphrase the "medieval inscription" noted in the article. If you think this is of use, please substitute if you think that it is good to do so. Or, I will do so later. I would love to see the original, so that I might do a better WP job, etc. As I stated before, it is a charming story. In the current WP article, I believe the word "paddy" refers to rice, and have made the substitution. Best, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 03:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Inscription

An inscription from the medieval period compares the Kudumbar and the Pandya kings. At some point, there was a severe famine in the countries of Chera, Chola and Pandya. Because of the famine, the king of Pandya went to Devendra. The king approached, and "sat on the same level with him [Devendra] and demanded equal privileges with him". As a result, the king returned to earth, accompanied by four devakanniar. He cultivated sugar canes, plantain, palmyra and several varieties of rice, which he brought with him from the heavenly realm. He also resolved the drought in the area, by producing twelve thousand wells in one day. In honor of his accomplishments, he was given the title Devendra Kudumban and "bestowed [given] some privileges".

This legend is used to explain the cultivation of “wet crops”, like sugar cane, plantain and rice, by the Devendrakula Velalar, from ancient times, and their expertise in maintaining such crops.

References

Protected edit request on 1 September 2020

Hi. I'm on the Wikipedia typo team. A space needs to be inserted between the second and third sentences in the section title "Inscription". (I apologize for being xo picky, but that's what the typo team does all day. Thanks. Ira Ira Leviton (talk) 02:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC) Ira Leviton (talk) 02:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ira:  Done. Thanks for pointing this out, and as far as I am concerned you don't have to apologise for being "picky", whatever anyone else thinks; even little things are worth getting right. JBW (talk) 22:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Devandrakula Velalar is not just Pallar

Devandrakula Velalar comprises of pallar and the other 6 subcastes. Redirecting it to pallar isn't the right thing. onel5969 Nandivarman (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Onel5969 (talk · contribs) Nandivarman (talk) 12:54, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• I know that's what the article said before Onel5969 restored it to redirect to Pallar, so I restored the full article. If Onel5969 believes that Devandrakula Velalar is something different from what the article says, Onel5969 should discuss that here instead of unilaterally changing the article back to a redirect. Largoplazo (talk) 15:14, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Deleted

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was Merge as per WP:NOTNP and WP:NOTDICT. Also, it doesn't meet WP:RS requirements of social groups. Kautilyapundit (talk) 15:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

---

Already an article exist for the same ethnic group (pallar). So this article is a duplicate. This can be merged to pallar. Karikalan2013 (talk) 06:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sitush It is a valid one to be merged with Pallar. Because it's like Wikipedia automatically legitimize their name change. In the article, most sources use "Pallar" to describe. You know vanniyars have "Vanniyakula Kshatriya" in the government records. But we can't use the same name on Wikipedia due to the historical records. It will legitimize their Sanskritisation movement.

The same case happened here. Read from "There's a popular saying... Kallar, Maravar, Agamudaiyar turn into Vellalar" in https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Caste_Class_and_Power/OIAyDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=claiming+vellalar&pg=PT113&printsec=frontcover - author is Andre. But Gough and Karashima says the same in this thing. In North India, castes use Varna idiom to claim high status and In south India, castes use Local idiom to claim High status. Kautilyalundit (talk) 15:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Is Devendra Kula Vellalar an officially recognized by the Government of Tamil Nadu? I am not sure, I am just asking. Vanniyar Kula Kshatriya, even though it is a title resulted from blatant Sanskritization done by low caste Pallis to justify their specious claims of being descendants of kings and warrior, they successfully politicked and convinced government to accept it as their title. We need to confirm if Devendra Kula Vellalar is officially recognized as another name of Pallars by government of India/TM before merging the pages. 103.158.244.134 (talk) 15:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This is a recent name change like how "Melakarar" renamed their caste name into " Isai Vellalar" by using political power. Read "A Concise History of South India: Issues and Interpretations, Noboru Karashima" (p 290) and it will reveal how lower castes claim high status through Sanskritisation and politicking. Kautilyalundit (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Read this too https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Party_System_Change_in_South_India/u82MAgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=pallar+vellalar&pg=PT226&printsec=frontcover Kautilyalundit (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment It is clearly a government-sanctioned neologism and part of the long history of Sanskritisation whereby castes try to improve perceptions of their status. I have cleaned up the article but can't see a few of the remaining sources.

The issue with redirecting to Pallar is that it's quite likely we have articles for some of the other six traditional castes named, so we would have to deal with them also. Kudumbar rings a bell, for example.

I have no idea how this would be treated in the context of WP:DICDEF. - Sitush (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Are you sure those are agricultural castes? Don't make everyone doubt your experience.

Yup, It is similar to Sanskritisation. N Indian castes use Sanskritisation to get high status and on the other hand, S Indian castes adopt practices of high castes and imitate them to claim a high status.

Kudumbar is a subcaste of pallar or Devendrakulathar. Kudumbar doesn't have a Wikipedia article.

Kindly read this page from the latest book (it's like poorly written by some newly stepped-out students from an Indian university. Adjust with it.): Caste, Communication, and Power

All the six castes are subcastes of Pallar.

K.S. Singh described the 6 castes as "Devendrakulathan" during his administration period 2

Just search "Devendrakulathan" and "the sub-divisions of the Pallar" on the Google books to know more.

We have two choices:

1. Rename the article into "Devendrakulathan" as how we renamed Vanniyar article (We didn't legitimize them by creating an article "Vanniyakula Kshatriya". Vanniyar's case is similar to this one. They had padaiyachi subcaste article and then we merged it into vanniyar. The difference between the two is Vanniyar used the Varna idiom and Pallar used the local idiom (Similar example is Rajputisation)

2. Redirect the article into the Pallar. The pallar article has a lot about Devendrakula Velalar.

News sources are not reliable to define social groups and lead of its articles. Some copies from Wikipedia. They get money if they write an article for their organization. News reporters have to create an article within the time-frame of the heat of the topic. So they read Wikipedia and raj sources to get ideas to write an article. It will make their process get done quickly. But it is unreliable for social groups except for the reservation topics.

in SI, History (Agricultural labour class) -> do agriculture as a free tenant-> with the money buy land and adopt high caste practices -> claim landowning caste -> rename the caste name

in NI, History (low castes)-> Adopt practices of high castes and perform Sanskritisation -> claim preferred varna status -> add their preferred varna name into their caste name.

Only a few cases are genuine in history. Kautilyapundit (talk) 03:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilyapundit I think you have misunderstood what I said. I have no intention of doing trawling Google for anything based on a vague hand-wave, though, and you're teaching me to suck eggs when it comes to the reliability of Indian newspapers etc + how Sanskritisation plays out.. - Sitush (talk) 04:28, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I had to mention them for other people who will come here to read. Not you. If you were being a pro, you wouldn't have written like that in the lead summary. Did you read the pallar article to write the lead of this article or Did you read any relevant books?

Rewrite the lead summary. I'm requesting, don't be frustrated. Kautilyapundit (talk) 04:42, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning the junk, seriously. Kautilyapundit (talk) 04:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the current situation, I feel there is no need for a merger of this page with the pallar, rather it should be the other way around. Where pallar page should be merged with this page, as pallar and the 6 sub castes have been omitted from the government records. Worldgiant (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

As per WP:RS and WP:NOTDIC for social groups, the current format of the article implies the article should be deleted. Because it has no academic sources and historical records to say those are Devendrakula Velalar.

Any historical refs? No

Academic sources? No

Inscriptional references? No

Independent research papers? No

We do have newspapers only as refs. But to reflect them as a main article, Wikipedia is not a Newspaper.

We have 2 choices:

1. Rename the article as "Devendrakulathan"

2. Merge the article into Pallar.

Sources imply the 6 castes are subgroups of Pallar or Devendrakulathan. The pallar article already has a lot about Devendra kula Velalar and its politicking movement. Sri Lankan Pallar are still being what they have been before. The movement happened in Tamil Nadu only. We can't rewrite history when something involve in Neologism. Kautilyapundit (talk) 14:35, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I would say "No" to the redirect. It is not valid to delete an article with offcial and authentic sources cited including the official anthropology report by the commission appointed to the naming. "Devendrakula Velalar" is not only "Pallar" and is a combination of 6 other communities along with it in Tamilnadu. Moreover the name "Devendrakula Velalar" was announced as part of The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order (Amendment) Bill, 2021 to merge the existing 7 communities into a single entity by a Constitutional amendment which clearly states it to be officially recognised. This could be referred from the official source. It is officially recognised by the Government itself as a single entity. IT SHOULD NOT BE MERGED. Rather it should be improved with more reliable articles and expanded. Thank you. Vendan2211 (talk) 00:05, 01 April 2023 (UTC)

I support merging and DKV has no historical proof 60.243.12.26 (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I support the merger. The claim of Pallar to be named as a subsect of Vellar caste has no historical basis. This is a social engineering project. The GO order is based on a report by Hansraj Verma Committee which the Government of India is refusing to release in public domain stating that the issue is subjudice. A genetic study manufactured by a biased Professor of University of Madras is also not being released in public domain. Another book by K. Senthil "மீண்டெழும் பாண்டியர்', claiming this was highly censored by Government of Tamil Nadu and the censure was upheld by Madras High Court in WP.No.17615 of 2013. K. Senthil claims the word Mallar became Pallar. But மகரம் never becomes சகரம் in Tamil. He has loosely held that Devaneya Pavanar supports this change in Tamil Language whereas Pavanar himself has rightly said that the word Mallar refers to warriors belonging to all castes. Hence the claim by K. Senthil that Mallars belong to only one caste has no historical basis. Gnanamkt (talk) 05:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023

Requesting to add merge tag {{Merge to|Pallar|discuss=Talk:Devendrakula_Velalar#Merge|date=March 2023}} {{Merge to|Pallar|discuss=Talk:Devendrakula_Velalar#Merge|date=March 2023}} Kautilyalundit (talk) 16:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Note: @Largoplazo: given your comment (above), what do you think of the suggestion? M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I would say better if we redirect it to Pallar. Because the sources of this article are poor and editors who might be close with the subject twisted their preferred low-quality sources to legitimize the new name from the Wikipedia community.

As per WP:RS and the WP:LEAD, the sources used to define the article are not reliable. Most of the information about this article already exists on Pallar and some sources used in the article are Raj-era sources (Unreliable for social groups). Since 2020, many suggest this article should be merged into Pallar. Thank you. Kautilyalundit (talk) 08:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lightoil (talk) 00:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I would say "No" to the redirect. It is not valid to delete an article with offcial and authentic sources cited including the anthropology report by the commission. "Devendrakula Velalar" is not only "Pallar" and is a combination of 6 other communities along with it. Moreover the name "Devendrakula Velalar" was announced as part of The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order (Amendment) Bill, 2021 to merge the existing 7 communities into a single entity by a Constitutional amendment which clearly states it to be officially recognised. This could be referred from the official source. It is officially recognised by the Government itself. IT SHOULD NOT BE MERGED. Rather it should be improved with more reliable articles and expanded. Thank you. Vendan2211 (talk) 15:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Not historically supported.

This is a social engineering project. The GO order is based on a report by Hansraj Verma Committee which the Government of India is refusing to release in public domain stating that the issue is subjudice. A genetic study manufactured by a biased Professor of University of Madras is also not being released in public domain. Another book by K. Senthil claiming this highly censored by Government of TamilNadu and the censure was held by Madras High Court in WP.No.17615 of 2013. K. Senthil claims the word Mallar become Pallar. But மகரம் never becomes சகரம் in Tamil. He has loosely held that Pavanar supports this change whereas Pavanar himself has held that Mallar refers to warriors belonging to all castes. Hence claiming that Mallar belong to only one caste by K. Senthil has no historical basis. 27.5.174.155 (talk) 05:05, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Devendra kula velalars bill Officially passed in lok sabha

Pallar is just a subcaste of Devendra kula velalar So merging devendra kula velalars article in pallars will not be appropriate and the word/title devendra kula velalars been historically proved as per anthropological report submitted to Central Government of India just because of that it's historically proved our honourable parliament accepted and passed the bill that the so called 7 sub caste will called under one name devendra kula velalar so as we can come to conclusion that the devendra kula velalar article shouldn't be merged with Pallar article either the pallar article can be merged with devendra kula velalar article that will be the justice. ChinnaVimal (talk) 13:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Pallar which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)