Talk:Clifton High School (New Jersey)

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David Null[edit]

There is no evidence that David Null meets the notability standards set at WP:PROF for professors. The link provided does show he is on the faculty, but provides no information that would establish a claim of notability, nor does it establish a connection to Clifton High School (New Jersey). If you have reliable and verifiable sources that would demonstrate notability AND a connection to the school, they need to be added. Without the required sources, the information has to be removed per Wikipedia policy. Alansohn 21:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Again, there is no evidence that David Null meets the notability standards set at WP:PROF for professors or the general WP:BIO standard. The link provided does show he is on the faculty of the Behavioral Sciences and Sociology departments, but provides no information that would establish a claim of notability. Nor does the source provided establish a connection to Clifton High School (New Jersey); typing in CHS and a graduation date does not make it a reliable and verifiable source. If you have reliable and verifiable sources from newspapers, magazines or books that would demonstrate notability AND a connection to the school, they need to be added. I strongly suggest that you review the relevant Wikipedia policies before reinserting this material. Without the required sources, the information has been removed again in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Alansohn 07:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have inserted notability reference. As for documenting graduation from high school, I find it hard to believe you are serious. Graduation from the school is what makes one alumni. It's absurd to expect documentation from "newspapers, magazines or books" for high school graduation. Would you like me to cite the 1965 yearbook? ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupluv (talk • contribs) 07:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I again encourage you to review both WP:PROF and WP:BIO. Based on either guideline, the source provided, which only shows that David Null is on the faculty, would not satisfy the standard to satisfy the Wikipedia:Notability standard. Far from absurd, if you look at the other notable alumni listed, you will see that Ernest Mario, Dave Szott and Ronald F. Maxwell all have Wikipedia articles that demonstrate their notability AND also have sources from newspapers or magazines listed in the school article that show that they attended Clifton High School. A yearbook reference would be very hard to verify, and notable living individuals tend to receive media coverage that would include information about the high school attended. I would be more than happy to assist you in adding the appropriate reliable and verifiable sources that Wikipedia requires. If these sources cannot be provided, the material will be removed, again. Alansohn 07:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I read your comments. They are unconvincing. The notability standard you apply is inappropriate. The appropriate standard is of High School alumni not professors. Further, since I know you did not consult the Journal of Juvenile Law which I cited as a reference, you cannot claim that references for notability are lacking. Finally, nothing David Null ever published or has been published about David Null cites his high school. Those who have multiple univtsity degrees and are faculty at major universities are not likely to be identified by their high schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupluv (talk • contribs) 09:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • You have claimed that David Null is notable based on the fact that he is a college professor. You have provided a source that shows his name in a college catalog and the title of a publication. The WP:PROF standard, a subset of the WP:BIO policy, establishes guidelines for determining the notability of academic figures. It is not sufficient to be a college professor, nor is it adequate to have written articles accepted in a journal. The WP:PROF lays out rather clear and specific standards that must be met, and no evidence has been provided that David Null meets these standards. If Professor Null would not meet these standards on hos own, he cannot be included in any article as a notable. There need to be reliable and verifiable sources showing that he has been covered in newspaper or magazine articles, or in books, all of which would be appropriate sources. If there is no evidence of any source showing that he attended this high school, there is no reason or justification to include him here. I strongly recommend that you review the relevant Wikipedia policies, especially WP:PROF, before reinserting this material. Without the required sources, the information has been removed -- again -- in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Alansohn 15:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notability standards set at WP:PROF for professors are not the notability standards for high school alumni. Please explain how this edit violates the notability standards for high school alumni if you disagree with this edit.Pupluv

  • No matter where an individual is listed, the Wikipedia:Notability standard must be satisfied. For all living people WP:BIO applies, and for professors, the specific standard is WP:PROF. As we discussed last month, there is no evidence that he meets this standard. As Null does not meet this standard, he cannot be included in this or any other article as a notable. There need to be reliable and verifiable sources showing that he has been covered in newspaper or magazine articles, or in books, all of which would be appropriate sources. These sources need to be provided to show that 1) he is notable (by WP:PROF) and 2), that he attended Clifton High School. Without the required sources, the information has been removed -- again -- in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Further addition of unsourced material may be treated as vandalism. P.S. Use four tildes ~~~~ to sign your posts. Alansohn 07:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with both your contentions. 1. The criteria for being a notable HIGH SCHOOL alumni is different than that of being a notable professor so WP:PROF does not apply. To become a professor from a mediocre high school like Clifton High School is a notable achievement. Also, it is not relevant that Null is not notable to deserve a stand-alone article. WP:BIO expressly states that "A person is presumed to be notable enough for a standalone article if they have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Notability criteria is also needed for a person to be included in a list or general article; however, this criteria is less stringent." Publish, reliable secondary sources have been provided to establish Null's notability at least under this less stringent standard. In any case, the criteria for notability should be governed by "common sense". In any "common sensibile" criteria Null is a notable alumni from this high school.

2. You demand documented proof that Null is actually an alumni of this high school. I have examined many, many school articles listing notable alumni and almost never is there documentation of the sort you require. I would be happy to provide many examples of such pages to you. It would seem, that for some reason you wish to apply a criteria that is applied very rarely if ever. In any case, such documentation would be impossible to obtain. It would be quite unusual for an article about a college professor with numerous advanced degrees to discuss the high school he or she attended.

For the latter point, I suggest you enter "high school" and "notable alumni" as search terms. I was unable to find a single high school article that provided independent, verifiable evidence that any of the alumni cited were graduates of that school. Of course I did not examine every school so there may be a few that do. However, they would be a tiny minority.

I have reverted the page under discussion to its previous state and requested Third Party intervention.Pupluv

  • While I wish Professor Null well, I think even you seem to be agreeing that he is nowhere near passing the WP:PROF standard to establish notability. Even if there was some weak semblance of notability and a standalone article was created, you might have a leg to stand on here. While the standards of notability are "less stringent" for inclusion in a list or a general article such as this one, they have not disappeared in their entirety. The sources provided, at best, show that he is a run-of-the-mill teacher (the link provided only shows that he is on the faculty of the Sociology department, but provides no information that would establish a claim of notability) who has written an article in a journal (which is by him, but not about him, which would demonstrate notability). As to your demand for his inclusion in this article, we are supposed to accept upon your say so that he is an alumnus of Clifton High School, without any verification whatsoever that he attended the school. Your insistence that we accept this is based on your claim that in your exhaustive search that you were "unable to find a single high school article that provided independent, verifiable evidence that any of the alumni cited were graduates of that school." In general, note that the fact that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS that violates Wikipedia policy does not grant an automatic license for you to violate the policy yourself. But in this particular case, have a gander at the Clifton High School (New Jersey) article that you are trying to foist Null into, which has five genuinely notable alumni listed: Chris Karcz, Ernest Mario, Ronald F. Maxwell and Dave Szott all have reliable source demonstrating and documenting their attendance at Clifton High School. A fifth notable, Chris Opperman is tagged with "citation needed", indicating that there is no support for his connection to the school and that his entry will be removed if no source is provided. For Null we have nothing but your stamping your feet. I can provide you with hundreds of school articles that provide sources demonstrating that the alumni actually attended the school, but I would hope that this one would adequately disprove your claim that there is not a single high school article that provides the required sources. As you have not provided this required information, as you have been unable to do so despite months of explanations and requests, and as I have more than adequately disproved your claim that no article provides such sources, the entry for Null has been removed, again. Alansohn 12:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I refuse to engage in an edit war that you are apparently determined to start and have , as I stated asked for a Third Party to intervene. My postion on this matter is unchanged. Null is a notable alumni from this high school regardless of whether he is, and I do not concede this, merely "a run-of-the-mill" professor at a major university. Even "a run-of-the-mill" professor at a major university is as notable a high school alumni as someone who plays professional soccer or football for a few years.

Second, you state that the use of citations to establish alumni relationships for the Clifton High School article "would adequately disprove your claim that there is not a single high school article that provides the required sources." I, of course, never made such a claim. Here is what I stated "I was unable to find a single high school article that provided independent, verifiable evidence that any of the alumni cited were graduates of that school. Of course I did not examine every school so there may be a few that do. However, they would be a tiny minority."

The example you provided is of that tiny minority. Wikipedia, however, is based upon consensus standards and if you would merely follow my suggestion and search "high school" "notable alumni", it would be apparent that the consensus is that no such reference is needed.

BTW, contrary to what you stated just today, the references that supposedly prove alumnni standing for Dave Szott are both dead links. The link for Ernest Mario does not indicate his alumni status. There is no link that shows Robert F. Maxwell is an alumni, and in fact I believe he is not. So much for "all have reliable source demonstrating and documenting their attendance at Clifton High School" you claim.Pupluv 20:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please read the Clifton High School (New Jersey) article. The one where you've been trying to insert David Null. Next to every one of the notables listed in this article is a source documenting his attendance at Clifton High School and his status as a notable, click on each source and feel free to verify that the source documents attendance. You stated, to quote your entire sentence, that "I was unable to find a single high school article that provided independent, verifiable evidence that any of the alumni cited were graduates of that school." The article for Clifton High School clearly disproves your claim. Again, the fact that you can find some other article that violates Wikipedia policy, does not justify further violations; that "everybody does it" doesn't work for speeding tickets, income tax cheating or here on Wikipedia. With your system you could stick Null anywhere, as we have to take your say so as the only evidence of his attendance. Wikipedia just doesn't work that way. There is no evidence of notability by any standard and no evidence that he attended this school. Any further efforts to readd him to the article without the required sources will be removed. Again. Alansohn 21:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I carefully explained to you previously, only a tiny minority of Wikipedia articles that list high school alumni cite documentation. Wikipedia is based upon consensus and the consensus is clearly that it is not needed. As for "sticking NULL anywhere", Wikipedia is based upon common sense. Clifton High School is far from being a prestigious institution, why would anyone lie anout it?

Further, as I carefully pointed out to you, even for the the example you cite Clifton High School most of the claimed references for alumni are dead links or there are no links at all. It's really pointless to attempt a dialog with a user like yourself who will not read or respond productively in Talk. Consequently, my request for Third Party intervention.Pupluv 21:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Again, as pointed out to you, all of the links to sources demonstrating attendance at the school for notables in the Clifton High School (New Jersey) article were in the article. The sources you claim were dead links were in the articles for the alumni themselves. For completeness' sake, these links were fixed in those articles, in addition to the sources that already existed in the Clifton High School article itself. Wikipedia:Verifiability, "one of Wikipedia's core content policies", states that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Verifiable in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." That you have found unsourced material elsewhere accomplishes and proves nothing. Again from WP:V, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." Without required sources, "Any edit lacking a source may be removed...", and will be removed, again, if proper sources are nor provided. As suggested, use the Clifton High School (New Jersey) article, and the sources it provides for the alumni listed, as a model. If you have the sources to show he attended the school, add them; if not, the "why would anyone lie about attending the school" is a rather poor excuse for inclusion. Alansohn 05:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am responding to the request for a third opinion. I have moved the above discussion to this page so that any future questions regarding his inclusion/exclusion will have this discussion available.[1] My response will follow shortly. - Mdbrownmsw 14:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At issue, inclusion of David Null here. There are two main issues: notability and verifiability. While questions of reliable sources and original research have some impact, they do not seem to be the main points of contention.

Is Null notable? There are two levels of notability: notable enough for a standalone article and notable enough for inclusion in an article. The first is an easy shortcut. If Null were notable enough for a standalone article, this would not be part of the question. I don't think anyone invovled currently believes he is unambiguously notable enough under WP:PROF or any other guideline for his own article. Unfortunately, this kicks us to the less clear inclusion criteria. All the guidelines really give us is that it is "less stringent" then the overall guideline.

I checked around for guidelines and found little of substance. The best was still quite vague: "As well as satisfying Notability criteria, editors on any particular list of alumni can institute their own policies for deciding who is notable enough for inclusion." So we get to set our own policies, for what that's worth.

Several suggestions have been made re Null's notability: "Even 'a run-of-the-mill' professor at a major university is as notable a high school alumni as someone who plays professional soccer or football for a few years." While I generally agree with the sentiment underlying this statement ("Will the woman who just found a cure for cancer sit down? I can't see this important football game."), I do not see a sustainable basis for this. A major newspaper is a reliable source. Any given day's edition will list dozens of professional athletes, with a mere handful of the best of the publish-or-perish world ever seeing meaningful coverage. It isn't fair, but it is what it is. (Ironic: the first David Null my google search found is a basketball coach.)

"To become a professor from a mediocre high school like Clifton High School is a notable achievement." Initially, I was inclined to view this argument as part of a walled garden mindset or schoolcruft. I have rethought this and have come to the conclusion that the status of the school is completely irrelevant in determining whether or not to include Null. Failing this decision, every such discussion would require detailed analysis and weighting: Joe Blow's notability would have to be weighed against the school's notability/status/whatever. Podunk High would have as many "notable" alumni (anyone who ever learned to tie their shoes) listed as Prominant Research University (only Nobel Prize winners, probably excluding Economics). Either Null is notable for such lists or he isn't.

The "What about article X?" argument was briefly examined and has been refuted. If the editor feels there are legitimate concerns with the inclusions in other articles, I encourage a well-reasoned approach might invovle working with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools in their efforts to establish and apply sound guidelines. While "What about article X?" is a bad way to support disfavored content in article Y, it has it's place in moving from the mish-mash of ways something is being done to a consensous of how we want something to be done.

The reference for Null being "Author of numerous publications in law, urban planning, and social psychology. Authority in American Indian adoption law." is given as "[Journal of Juvenile Law Vol. 9 no. 1 and 2, 1985] Journal of Juvenile Law Vol. 9 no. 1 and 2, 1985". Presumably, this is the "Journal of Juvenile Law" from LaVerne, while Null was a post-doc there.[2] Though the publication in question is not immediately available and the citation given is incomplete, it seems to imply that he worked on the LaVerne Law Review while there. While this is a nice credential for Null's CV, it hardly can be expected to support the claim made. However, I don't think his current work on the Civil Air Patrol[3] really uses that kind of experience anyway. Additionally, there is some confusion re LaVerne Law Review stating that "Volume 9 was a single number (1985)"[4] when the cite in the article claimed "no. 1 and 2".

From the sources presented, I cannot begin to imagine Null's name surviving in the "Notable alumni" section of any school receiving any meaningful scrutiny.

Though I think the above summation is sufficient, it is certainly worth noting that Null as an alumni is not, at present, verifiable. The cites given do not establish this. As previously noted, any editor may demand a reliable source: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.[1] The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question."Wp:v#Burden_of_evidence This burden was not met.

The editor seeking to return Null dismissed this demand with "Wikipedia, however, is based upon consensus standards and if you would merely follow my suggestion and search 'high school' 'notable alumni', it would be apparent that the consensus is that no such reference is needed." However, the current recommendations from the Schools Project says "All alumni information must be referenced. See Wikipedia:Footnoting for technical help. Individual alumni need a citation a) to verify that they did indeed attend the school and b) to verify the statement of their notability in their short one or two line description. If an alumnus has their own article in mainspace, then it is not necessary for their notability to be referenced, as long as it is done on their actual page." Mdbrownmsw 17:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ronald F. Maxwell[edit]

Source cited for Ronald F. Maxwell's alumni connection does not meet verifiability standards. A article from a publicist is "self-publication" and forbidden as a source. "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable_sources." Further, the source itself is questionable because there is no editorial oversioght. "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pupluv (talk • contribs) 07:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm sorry to bother you while you are on your path of vengeance, but a reminder that WP:BIO states that "Notability criteria is also needed for a person to be included in a list or general article; however, this criteria is less stringent." It is becoming clearer and clearer that your recent edits to this article are not a good faith effort to improve the article, but are in fact an effort to excise a pound of flesh for the failure to insert David Null. I strongly suggest that you review WP:POINT before you continue with any more disruption. Alansohn 12:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personal comments are inappropriate. If you disagree with an edit, please use the Grievance process. I'm merely trying to properly apply Wikipedia criteria which, as noted above prohibits self-published sources espevoa;;y for a living person. If you have an independent source for the claim that Maxwell is CHS alumni, please supply it. Pupluv 16:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unlike in your case with David Null, Ronald F. Maxwell is actually notable for his accomplishments and has a Wikipedia article. As specified in WP:BIO, "Notability criteria is also needed for a person to be included in a list or general article; however, this criteria is less stringent." and this source clearly and unequivocally demonstrates a connection to Clifton High School, meeting a standard that you had deemed impossible and had utterly failed to accomplish with David Null. Your persistent WP:POINT vandalism will be dealt with appropriately if you continue with your efforts to disrupt Wikipedia. Alansohn 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • For reasons previously stated, I disagree with your contention that this source provides verifiable. It is essentially self-published and has no editorial review. Your reference above that WP:BIO, "Notability criteria is also needed for a person to be included in a list or general article; however, this criteria is less stringent." is irrelevant. No one denies that Mr Maxwell is notable. However his alumni status has not been verified.

Note that burden of evidence for inclusion of information is with the editor who inserts it. If you have any independent verifiable source for this claim, I again suggest that you supply it. Also, in the interests of Wikipedia standards of behavior, avoid childish threats and submit any disagreement to the Grievance Process.Pupluv 20:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

    • Even you can't possibly believe the crap you're spewing. Your abuse -- which meets the textbook definition of WP:POINT disruption -- has been taken to the grievance process. A well-deserved block should help you focus on productively building an encyclopedia, not childish tit-for-tat revenge based on blatant disregard for Wikipedia policy. Alansohn 20:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for accepting my suggestion to take your complaint to the Grievance Process. Your personal statements deserve no comment. Note that I have placed a Request for Comment on the source in question on the bio page for Ronald F, Maxwell. Pupluv 20:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This defintiely reads as a WP:POINT problem. I note that above, a Rf3O was made, and a 3O given, opposing Pupluv's inclusion of a professor; so he now seeks to remove others. If he succeeds on this, I suspect he would take shots at the pharma exec next. POINTy behavior's unwelcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThuranX (talk • contribs) 21:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was also asked to comment. Maxwell is notable, and that he went to the school is demonstrated from his bio information, which is always accepted for such personal details as an exception to 1st party sources, unless subjected to a good faith challenge. (I can recall once in the last 15 months or so when I could not find a PHD after extensive search based on reasonable other cause for suspicion, and the article was deleted.) David Null, as a full professor at CSU, may or may not be notability--CSU are not research universities and promotion there is explicitly not based primarily on publication, according to their own sources. The way to find out is to write an article on him and see if it survives, not fight about it here.
As for the general standard for mention in Alumni articles, I would personally hold to WP article or clear eligibility for one--e.g. a congressman about whom an article had not yet been written. There is too much potential for spam otherwise. But there is no real standard here, and it is not really wrong to argue otherwise. As for being an alumnus, i think any source acceptable for such bio details would suffice, including a CV. DGG (talk) 03:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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