Talk:Choekyi Gyaltsen, 10th Panchen Lama

Yabshi Pan Rinzinwangmo was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 November 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Choekyi Gyaltsen, 10th Panchen Lama. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Yabshi Pan Rinzinwangmo was copied or moved into Choekyi Gyaltsen, 10th Panchen Lama with this edit on November 18, 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Page move

Sorry for moving this page around so much. It's hard to know what name to use, as this man is mostly known as "the previous Panchen Lama". I'm considering moving it to Choekyi Gyaltsen for simplicity. He probably is the person best-known by that name (with nothing affixed to it), even though he has a longer formal name and there is at least one other Choekyi Gyaltsen. Or, maybe this page should just move to 10th Panchen Lama (that would imply a style change also affecting the Dalai Lama and Karmapa articles). - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that sounds good. This article used to have a really nice picture, he was at a table with 3 others, I think. Oh wait, here it is: [1] [2] [3]. That's one of the good things about Wikipedia mirrors. If we could find a copyright status (and a source) for the image, then we'd be set. —Khoikhoi 00:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which do you prefer, Choekyi Gyaltsen or 10th Panchen Lama? The latter is probably how he's best known.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer Choekyi Gyaltsen, 10th Panchen Lama for consistency (like Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama) —Khoikhoi 00:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not consistency with Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (the 16th Karmapa), though? I suggest we think outside the box and come up with a more suitable standard if necessary.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that all the Dalai Lama (and Panchen Lama) articles current have the suffix at the end, so if we're going to move one we should move the rest of them. —Khoikhoi 01:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

True, but it might take a long time to figure out where all those pages should get moved to. Personally, I think there's something to be said for including the "14th Dalai Lama" in the article about that person, even if it's an exception, because he is so very widely known as simply "the Dalai Lama".—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 01:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see what you're saying. However, we need to keep the article about the office of Dalai lama. I guess the suffix isn't really necessary however. —Khoikhoi 01:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edit by Ran June 2005

May I ask why Ran added the communist chinese version of who the next Panchen Lama is? It is interesting, to say the least, that you out of nowhere come and just add that and now claim that you are neutral? Couldn't you add some info on the Panchen Lama? This is yet another example of what Ran is after. Ran is a chinese nationalist in a sheep skin. I have collected few examples. Meet me at my talk page. Me 02:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Something you may not know. The Panchen Lama usually finds or helps find the next Dalai Lama. Do you see the chinese motive now? I hope you do. The issue on who the real Panchen Lama is needs to be addressed. Me 02:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A reminder: Please keep your discussion within the topic. Calling Ran a Chinese nationalist while he abruptly denied it, and mentioning 'few examples' (which means some do not come from this article) is absolutely off-topic, and is personal attack. It does not help to improve the article. Aranherunar 03:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Link to propaganda

I think this link should be removed: The passing away and last words of the Tenth Panchen Lama (China.org.cn)

It is untrue propaganda which surely is not right to be linked to here, unless it is made clear that it is propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodlandjustin (talk • contribs) 10:47, 19 April 2007

Any sources for your claim? If not, keep the link. —Babelfisch 06:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blnguyen has deleted the links once again, with the comment "rm propaganda links". I've re-inserted them. Please discuss. —Babelfisch 03:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blnguyen has removed the links once again and deleted the information I had inserted about the link to the excerpt from the book by Yukiyasu Osada, this time just with the comment "revert". This is totally unacceptable. Please discuss. Do you really think that the article by the "International Campaign for Tibet" is not "propaganda"? Don't remove the links and the information about the link to Kotan without discussing that issue here first. —Babelfisch 06:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The international campaign for Tibet is marked as a lobby group. I don't see how this compares to what the PRC have done seeing as they installed their own Panchen Lama. PRC has no freedom of press or any of these. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So any links to Chinese media should be deleted? I don't think so, and I've re-inserted the links. If you want to delete them, please explain how they violate Wikipedia policies. —Babelfisch 05:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blnguyen has once again deleted the two links, without answering in the discussion, just with this comment:[4]

rv, yes, they are an enemy group. We don't need an external link to a Hamas biography on Ariel Sharon

This might be your political opinion, but the links don't violate Wikipedia policies. I've re-inserted them. —Babelfisch 03:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with B-fisch that cannot be treated as a straightforward fact that the Chinese government is "the enemy group". The relationship of the Panchen Lama to the Tibet patriot side and to the Chinese government is complicated to say the least. Certainly, the Panchen Lama had been closely allied with the Chinese going back at least to the 9th Panchen in the early 1920s.

Looking at the links in question, I think the china.org.cn is clearly propagandistic. I think the question should be whether the savetibet.org link is also propaganda, and whether propaganda should be completely excluded from the external links section. As for the au.china-embassy.org link, it doesn't seem very specifically informative, and I don't see the point of including it.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 03:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

house arrest + travelling around?

You can read the following:

In October 1977, he was released but held under house arrest in Beijing until 1982.
In 1978, after giving up his vows of an ordained monk, he traveled around China, looking for a wife to start a family.

It is not possible to travel around, when you are under housearrest! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.187.245.100 (talk) 14:20, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The last speech

The article has a quotation from the last speech, but I have read the whole speech and I believe that the quotation is false. In the speech there is condemnation of the cultural revolution, but every word was politically correct, for me to see. No poisoned arrow. --86.221.81.139 (talk) 19:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The same: The critical comments are in reality 25 years older. At that time the Panchen Lama was sceptical about the results in Tibet. He was punished as the article correctly describes it. But later he was rehabilitated and for years before dying he was completely in line with the CCP and the Peking government. And his last speech is perfectly in line. But somebody (the Dalai Lama?) has pretended that he repeated his critical comments in the last speech. That was of course in order to give rise to rumours about a murder committed by the murderous communist government. I do not intend to correct the article because this error is done on purpose and is systemic. The same error appears in the article in french. It would be a never ending task to correct that. All the wiki articles about tibetan affairs has a part of systemic errors. The facts are - for me to see - that before his death the Panchen Lama was a most valuable asset for China. --86.221.104.213 (talk) 13:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Mio Nielsen, France.[reply]

Still the same: How is it possible that the Panchen Lama was first jailed and later in line with the government? That's very simple. At the moment of his last speech a great number of leading chinese politicians had themselves been imprisoned during the cultural revolution. After the fall of the gang of four the Panchen Lama found himself on the winners side !

The article mentions two sources asserting that the Panchens last speech was critical against China. So critical that it could have triggered a murder. On the other hand, the article has a link to the text of the speech, which, in my eyes, is completely in line with the chinese political correctness of the moment. Could this last document be a fake? That should be easy to prove, since there were 30000 people present and, I suppose, cameras and microphones. Is the issue of importance? Yes. Its a prolongation of the cold war and hence a major geopolitical question. If I am correct, the 10 Panchen Lama could, if he had lived, have made a lot of reluctant tibetan people collaborate with the Beijing government. So I ask the wikipedians who are following this article to investigate the matter ! --86.221.42.95 (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)Mio Nielsen, France.[reply]

I repeat: the quotation in the article supposed to be from his last speech is in reality dating from before the cultural revolution. The place given to the rumours of murder should be balanced by a consideration of the facts. A good parallel would be to suspect that de Gaulle was murdered by the french government with the explanation that the Vichy government had actually sentenced him to death ! Its so utterly ignorant of the realities, that I suppose that the whole article is supervised by some sort of cold war agitators. --86.221.87.38 (talk) 12:55, 22 April 2016 (UTC)M.N.[reply]

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Panchen Lama and Jigme Phuntsok

There's a record of meetings and visits and teachings and travels between the Panchen Lama and Jigme Phuntsok that creates a different story than the story portrayed in this page. These notable events begin in 1980 at Larung Gar then recur in 1987-89+/- as mentioned in the bio here. Adding the notable info to this page would also require adjusting the sections - imo, which could use more NPOV titles. Thoughts? Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:30, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added info &RS. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The daughter and INHERIT

The section on the daughter reads like heavy promo, and might conflict with no INHERIT policy. Thoughts on that also? Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should propose a page for her, due to INHERIT issues. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]