Talk:Celtic Britons

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Celtic Britons article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 2 months

Celts Top‑importance

	Celtic Britons is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Wales High‑importance

	Wales portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Scotland High‑importance

	Scotland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Scotland and Scotland-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject ScotlandScotland articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Pytheas seemingly called the people of Britain and Ireland the Pretanoí or Bretanoí

Source only mentions Britain, not Ireland. Claiming Pytheas called the people of both Britain and Ireland Pretanoí is Original Research unless a reliable source exists for this statement. Tewdar 14:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pytheus is described as travelling all that was accessible so it is not clear that he only used "Britain" for the modern region rather than the whole archipelago. That he circumnavigated these islands isn't original - see the wikipedia article on terminology of the British Isles, for example, and the sole use of αἱ Βρεττανιαι for the peoples of Βρεττανικαὶ νῆσοι, which seemingly included Ireland. Firsteleventh (talk) 16:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, just to add, that piece in Terminology - Historical Aspects is referenced, but I haven't had the chance to confirm that they match the statement. Firsteleventh (talk) 16:09, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Except we're not talking about whether Pytheas travelled to Britain and Ireland or not. We're talking about "do we have a modern authority who states that 'Pretanoí' in this context refers to (the people of) Britain and Ireland". The given source does not do this, and thus the disputed sentence is indeed an original interpretation. Tewdar 16:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is covered in the article with modern references . Sorry if I wasn’t clear Firsteleventh (talk) 19:23, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the referenced Wikipedia piece on the Terminology of the British Isles 👍 Firsteleventh (talk) 19:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-worded the sentence to match the source. – Asarrlaí ^(talk) 20:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll revisit this once I’ve chased down the references given in the Terminology piece Firsteleventh (talk) 21:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the Snyder book is really explicit enough either, but you might disagree... Tewdar 22:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, Snyder is not useful for Pytheas but does cover the debate over Celtic identity and use of Briton, pp. 2-7 - albeit as at 2003. Barry Cunliffe is of more use, I think, in his Ancient Celts (p. 4) in confirming that Pytheas explored the British Isles (as opposed to just Britain) and only refers to a single people - the Pretani who he did not identify as Celts. On p. 146, he goes on the describe the use of gens Hiernorum (Irish people) in Massilliot Periplus. Interesting stuff :-) Firsteleventh (talk) 13:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For me, For him the British Isles lay north of the land of the Celts and were known as the Pretanic islands. There is no suggestion that he regarded the Pretani as Celtic doesn't confirm that Pytheas only refers to a single people when he uses the term Pretani... imagine replacing 'Pretanic islands' with 'British Isles'. Just because we use this phrase doesn't mean we call Irish people 'British'. I want a source that says, very explicitly, that Pretani means people of both Britain and Ireland when Pytheas (or whomever) uses it. Happy New Year! 😁 Tewdar 14:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, we do need something more definitive - I just wanted to provide an update. Happy New Year to you and yours too 😁 Firsteleventh (talk) 14:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Germanic Title Map Image

I know that this will absolutely receive opposition straight away due to the nature of it being an English language Wikipedia page.

However, I’m taking issue with the colouring taken from national and monarchical flags.

Red and Blue are used from a Germanic Anglo-Saxon perspective, in opposition to A Gaelic Goidelic perspective, in relation to Britonnic.

If the red from the Welsh dragon and St. George’s Cross can symbolise non-Pictish Britain, then white can symbolise the Gaelic area of Scotland.

There is in that image a symbiosis of British Celtic culture with Anglo Saxon culture, as if that is the only legitimate form of being British, and if not, then at least Germanic.

Goidelic Scotland should be coloured white. As Alba traditionally means Albion, or Britain. And was used by the Gaels.

Green which has been used to symbolise some outside Irish Gaelic and Goidelic culture has not been complemented by some kind of outside Germanic culture.

These colours are obviously from flags. White is in the Scottish flag. It is the best form of neutrality from what is obviously an attempt at minimising and colouring Britain Anglo-Saxon as opposed to Irishness.

Gaels do not necessarily see themselves as Irish as Anglo-Saxons do not see themselves as German. I can accept that, why can’t you? NoelveNoelve (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notwithstanding blue being the predominant colour on St Andrew's saltire and white being the dominant colour on the modern flag of England - they all postdate the period covered by this article. The original crusader cross of England, for example, was white and only changed to red in 1265. The Saltire was not adopted in Scotland, I believe, until the late 13thC/early 14thC and St. George for England in the 15thC - and even then it was carried alongside that of St. Edmond and the Holy Trinity. There is nothing "germanic" at play here... Firsteleventh (talk) 10:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a very Scottish Gaelic viewpoint, seeing a "Germanic Anglo-Saxon perspective" in the map when it's probably actually closer to a Celtic nationalist persective – but of a Welsh, not a Scottish kind. The Celts from whose language Welsh is descended are shown in the modern national colour of Wales, prior to the arrival of any Anglo-Saxons on the scene, and the Pictish and Goidelic Celts are in the colours of Scotland and Ireland (although Ireland isn't on the map). I don't see how the "white for Alba" argument works for the Isle of Man. Ham II (talk) 11:19, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument is a bit vague but appears to be one of colours on the map having nationalistic associations? I've been looking at this map for years and never made that link. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Technical Editing and Style

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Angeluztb (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Acw055, Aresiaarthurs.

— Assignment last updated by Cfnardone (talk) 20:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]