Talk:Aspen Dental

Requested edit

I’m Amanda Hauptfleisch, Senior Communications Coordinator with Aspen Dental. We have concerns with the neutrality of this page. Specifically, the latter sentence of the introduction section and the entire “Criticism” section appear to fall outside Wikipedia’s neutral point-of-view guidelines, in addition to being completely unsourced. We welcome constructive criticism and dialogue, but ask that the community take a look at revising or deleting these sections to comply with Wikipedia best practices.--Amanda aspendental (talk) 19:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

{{Request edit}}

Extended content

We propose making the following updates and additions to the "Today" section of the article. Please let us know your feedback. Thanks! --Amanda aspendental (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Today Aspen intends to hire 700 workers this year as part of a plan to open 60 locations across the country. Response <ref name="Henrietta" /> is a press release generated by the company itself. It is not considered a reliable reference. Additionally, its content does not contain the information "Aspen Dental recorded approximately 2.2 million visits at more than 330 office locations in 22 states in 2011: Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin." nor "Aspen Dental Jobs is a professional career resource offering dentists, dental specialists, hygienists, lab technicians and support staff to search dental professional openings online within Aspen Dental’s network of 330 office locations in 22 states across the U.S." Possibly the information is in links included in the press release, but if they are they should be used as the reference rather than the press release. User:Fred Bauder Talk 22:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Changes I've drastically pruned back the 'criticism' sections as they do not quote any references. The above section headed 'Today' looks a little promotional in tone so I wouldn't include it as it stands. . . Mean as custard (talk) 20:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Aspen Dental Mean as custard, I've revised the copy (below under "Today"); hopefully it reads more neutral. Please let me know what you think. Thanks! --Amanda aspendental (talk) 14:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC) Today Aspen Dental recorded approximately 2.2 million visits at more than 330 office locations in 22 states in 2011: Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin. Dental Service Organizations (DSOs) such as Aspen Dental have experienced growth in recent years as more dental professionals have sought administrative service and support to their practices, in light of the volatile economy and increasingly complex insurance industry. Aspen intends to hire 700 workers this year as part of a plan to open 60 locations across the country. Response <ref name="Henrietta" /> is a press release generated by the company itself. It is not considered a reliable reference. Additionally, its content does not contain the information "Aspen Dental recorded approximately 2.2 million visits at more than 330 office locations in 22 states in 2011: Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin." nor "Aspen Dental Jobs is a professional career resource offering dentists, dental specialists, hygienists, lab technicians and support staff to search dental professional openings online within Aspen Dental’s network of 330 office locations in 22 states across the U.S." Possibly the information is in links included in the press release, but if they are they should be used as the reference rather than the press release. User:Fred Bauder Talk 22:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I've revised the copy above based on your suggestions to read more neutral. Please let me know what you think. Thank you! --Amanda aspendental (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not a matter of neutrality, it is a matter of locating reliable published sources that are not generated by Aspen Dental or its officers. Most of this information is not particularly controversial. Just basic information that needs to be in the article. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I take that back, information that there are lots of job opportunities and that the firm is expanding could be considered promotional. Third party sources are preferable to links to the company job search site or anouncments by your president. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I've collapsed the proposed content of the page to separate discussion from the proposed content. You can easily view the proposal by clicking the "show" button on the right side of the "Extended content" box. Nyttend (talk) 13:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

New draft for review

As a representative for my employer, ADMI, I am here on Wikipedia to put forward a new draft for the Aspen Dental Wikipedia article. Per the disclosure at the top of this talk page, I will not edit the article directly because of my conflict of interest. Instead, I've saved a proposed draft at a subpage of my user space: User:Stephanie from ADMI/Aspen Dental.

I am seeking help from independent volunteer Wikipedia editors to review this draft, establish that it meets guidelines, and implement changes appropriately. Here are some of the issues I hope to accomplish with this draft:

• differentiate ADMI from Aspen Dental-branded practices; at present this is confusing at best, and misleading and incorrect at worst
• correct and expand the section about the company's history
• replace the current "Operations" section by moving details about the company's history into the appropriate section and creating a section about the business model and services
• add information about community programs, corporate sponsorships, and spokespeople

A key goal throughout preparation of this new draft is to ensure that the article remains neutral and presents a full, balanced view of ADMI and Aspen Dental. I'd like to note that critical commentary has been retained and even expanded where appropriate, to provide greater context. For instance, the new draft includes mention of all of the major legal cases involving Aspen Dental rather than just the two currently included, and provides a complete and up-to-date view.

I am happy for someone to review the article in its entirety and move over, or we can break the draft into sections to address separately. Similarly, I am happy to answer any questions or address any concerns from editors. Just leave a message here or on my talk page. In addition to this updated text, I plan to add new images to better illustrate the article and will follow up with those soon. Thanks in advance for your help. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 20:31, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Stephanie. I am rejecting this draft as written because it still presents Aspen Dental from the perspective that the company wants customers and investors to see it from. These are a few of the issues I've identified.

• The draft claims that "According to a 2013 study by Syracuse University's Martin J. Whitman School of Management, each practice location supports ten employees and has an "economic impact" of $1.3 million." I have seen this claim repeated on so many different press releases and news sources that I suspect Aspen tells reporters this factoid every time they give an interview. However, I have not been able to find the original study from the Whitman School of Management. While I am sure the study exists, there are so many different ways to quantify "economic impact" that I need to see the methodology of the study to understand what the study authors originally meant.
• In the draft, there is no mention of the legal controversies in the lead paragraph, whereas the current article does have a mention. According to MOS:LEDE, the introduction should be a summary of the article. When so much of the article is discusses the legal issues, the history of the lawsuits should not be erased from the introduction.
• Too much of the draft relies upon quotes from Aspen. This includes the quote about "comprehensive care that addresses both your short- and long-term dental care needs", which is promotional and should not be included in a Wikipedia article. Also problematic is the inclusion of two statements that ADMI released in response to litigation. The draft clearly gives undue weight to what Aspen is saying about itself. You have expanded the critical commentary, but most of the expansion is to give Aspen a rebuttal.
• This draft talks a lot about the settlements, but very little about the problems that led to the lawsuit. I read the Frontline article that you linked to in the draft, and many of the practices it describes—credit cards for customers, revenue targeting for dentists—are not discussed in the draft at all. Details about the allegations made by plaintiffs are scarcely to found. Again, this is a problem with undue weight; specifically, the draft minimizes the concerns raised by journalists and the consumers who filed lawsuits.

And there are other issues too, but since the problems I've mentioned above are more pressing, I'll hold off on discussing them for now. I appreciate your compliance with Wikipedia's COI guidelines by not editing the article directly. But to be blunt, there are some serious issues with balance in the draft, which will take a lot of work to fix. Perhaps it would be better to propose incremental changes. Altamel (talk) 05:06, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

@Altamel: OK, I understand your concerns about the draft, and given the complication involved, I will be offering specific individual requests to address issues in the current version. Thanks for taking the time to review the draft, even though I didn't get the answer I was hoping for. I hope you'll participate in subsequent edit requests, if you are interested. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 21:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Request to clarify the distinction between ADMI and Aspen Dental practices

On behalf of my employer, Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI), and following the above discussion, I'd like to propose an update to correct the article and clarify the distinction between ADMI and Aspen Dental practices. The current version of the article discusses Aspen Dental and ADMI as one entity, even though ADMI is a separate company that licenses the Aspen Dental brand name to individual dentists / practices. As seen in the full draft, I propose adding the following content to the "Operations" section in order to make the article more accurate:

Each Aspen Dental-branded practice is owned and operated by a licensed, independent dentist. Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI) offers business support services to these contracted practices using the Aspen Dental brand. The company's headquarters are located in DeWitt, a suburb of Syracuse, New York. The firm operates a practice support center out of the headquarters location, carrying out non-clinical work such as human resources, IT support, marketing services, and training and development. In addition to the New York-based practice support center, the firm also has "regional representatives" located in states with Aspen Dental-branded practices.

Markup

Each Aspen Dental-branded practice is owned and operated by a licensed, independent dentist. Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI) offers business support services to these contracted practices using the Aspen Dental brand.<ref name=Noles>{{cite news|last=Noles|first=Corey|title=Aspen Dental says 'open wide' to Missouri|url=http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog/health-care/2015/05/aspen-dental-says-open-wide-to-missouri.html|accessdate=January 27, 2016|work=St. Louis Business Journal|date=May 19, 2015}}</ref><ref name=About>{{cite web|title=About|url=https://www.aspendental.com/about|publisher=Aspen Dental Management, Inc.|accessdate=January 25, 2016}}</ref> The company's headquarters are located in DeWitt, a suburb of Syracuse, New York. The firm operates a practice support center out of the headquarters location,<ref name=Reinhardt11>{{cite news |title=Aspen Dental is expanding practice-support center |author=Eric Reinhardt |url=https://www.nexis.com/docview/getDocForCuiReq?lni=52JD-J8W1-JD2T-F247&csi=8399&oc=00240&perma=true |work=The Central New York Business Journal |date=March 11, 2011 |accessdate=April 28, 2016}}</ref> carrying out non-clinical work such as human resources, IT support, marketing services, and training and development.<ref name=Duffett05/> In addition to the New York-based practice support center, the firm also has "regional representatives" located in states with Aspen Dental-branded practices.<ref name=Reinhardt11/>

References

With the addition of this text to the "Operations" section, I'd like to request an update to the article's lead. I propose the following text:

Aspen Dental practices are independently owned and operated dental offices that share a common brand name, supported by Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI) – which is headquartered in East Syracuse, New York, in the United States.

Again, reviewing editors are welcome to reference the full proposed draft in order to see this content in context. Please let me know if you have any questions. @Altamel: Feel free to share your thoughts. This specific edit request focuses on areas of the draft that you did not have any noted concerns about, so I hope it can be an uncontroversial first request that provides some much-needed clarification in this article. I welcome your thoughts and will respond to additional concerns in subsequent edit requests. Thanks for your consideration. 72.90.89.180 (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

 Not done: Hi Stephanie. Again, the draft glosses over a point of controversy. Several lawsuits were filed in the past alleging that Aspen Dental branded practices are not independently owned and operated, contrary to what the company claimed, and are therefore in violation of state licensing laws. See article from Syracuse.com, "Lawsuit: Aspen Dental uses dentists as sham owners in illegal business model". You are correct that I did not mention this concern in the initial draft review, but there were a number of problems and I only mentioned the most visible ones. Stephanie, please be sure to log in when making edit requests. Thank you. Altamel (talk) 15:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Altamel: Thanks for your reply, and for the reminder to log in before responding. I am not looking to avoid this material if it is necessary to differentiate ADMI and Aspen Dental-branded practices, but right now the information presented is incorrect. I am simply trying to improve the article's accuracy. What do you think is needed so far as mentioning the lawsuits when seeking this update in the "Operations" section and introduction? Would it be appropriate to include a short mention along the lines of the wording you used "Several lawsuits were filed alleging that Aspen Dental... "? Or is more detail required, even though the full details would ideally be included in one place elsewhere in the article? Your feedback would be helpful. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 19:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Request to improve the article's "History" section

While waiting on further input on my previous request, I'd like to go ahead with another, which I am hopeful is less controversial. Again, this is on behalf of my employer, Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI). As seen in the full draft, I propose replacing the first two paragraphs of the "History" section with the following content in order to improve the article:

Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI), the Dental Support Organization that supports the Aspen Dental brand, was founded in 1998 by Robert Fontana, who continues to serve as chief executive. Fontana had completed business school in 1991 and worked at Upstate Dental in Syracuse, New York for a few years. ADMI's predecessor was founded in 1981 and supported dental practices in Upstate New York. It was a founding member of the Association of Dental Support Organizations (ADSO). After predecessor company Upstate Dental merged with East Coast Dental in December 1997, the resulting firm was launched as Aspen Dental Management, Inc. in 1998.

There were more than fifty Aspen Dental offices within five years of ADMI's establishment. In 1998, there were 13 offices, and by April 2007 there were 106 branded practices in Arizona, Connecticut, Indiana, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. The company was initially headquartered in Salina, New York but in 2006 moved to a new headquarters near Syracuse in DeWitt. The new headquarters was designed to include a training center to cater for both Aspen Dental employees and other firms' training events. ADMI plans to move into a new facility in downtown Syracuse in 2017 and add up to a further 400 employees by 2020.

Markup

Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI), the [[Dental Service Organizations|Dental Support Organization]] that supports the Aspen Dental brand, was founded in 1998 by Robert Fontana, who continues to serve as chief executive.<ref name=Frontline/> Fontana had completed business school in 1991 and worked at Upstate Dental in [[Syracuse, New York]] for a few years.<ref name=Breslow>{{cite web|last1=Breslow|first1=Jason M.|title=Aspen Dental CEO Bob Fontana: "We're Big Advocates for the Patient"|url=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/aspen-dental-ceo-bob-fontana-were-big-advocates-for-the-patient/|publisher=PBS|accessdate=January 26, 2016|date=June 26, 2012}}</ref> ADMI's predecessor was founded in 1981 and supported dental practices in [[Upstate New York]]. It was a founding member of the Association of Dental Support Organizations (ADSO).<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160403141715/http://theadso.org/about-adso/mission-history/|accessdate=March 26, 2016|publisher=Association of Dental Support Organizations|title=About ADSO}}</ref> After predecessor company Upstate Dental merged with East Coast Dental in December 1997, the resulting firm was launched as Aspen Dental Management, Inc. in 1998.<ref name=Tampone07>{{cite news |title=Aspen plans rapid expansion |author=Kevin Tampone |url=https://www.nexis.com/docview/getDocForCuiReq?lni=4PX1-HJR0-TXVX-K01T&csi=8399&oc=00240&perma=true |work=The Business Journal - Central New York |date=September 7, 2007 |accessdate= April 27, 2016}}</ref> There were more than fifty Aspen Dental offices within five years of ADMI's establishment.<ref name=Frontline/> In 1998, there were 13 offices, and by April 2007 there were 106 branded practices in Arizona, Connecticut, Indiana, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.akron.com/20070419/wsl84.asp|title=Aspen Dental opens Fairlawn office|first=Stephanie|last=Kist|date=April 19, 2007|work=Leader Online|accessdate=February 24, 2016}}</ref> The company was initially headquartered in Salina, New York but in 2006 moved to a new headquarters near Syracuse in [[DeWitt, New York|DeWitt]].<ref name=Tampone07/> The new headquarters was designed to include a training center to cater for both Aspen Dental employees and other firms' training events.<ref name=Duffett05>{{cite news |title=Aspen Dental building new headquarters |author=Claire Duffett |url=Https://www.nexis.com/docview/getDocForCuiReq?lni=4NXJ-J6T0-TXP1-32K2&csi=8399&oc=00240&perma=true |work=The Business Journal - Central New York |page=3 |date=December 16, 2005 |accessdate=April 27, 2016}}</ref> ADMI plans to move into a new facility in downtown Syracuse in 2017 and add up to a further 400 employees by 2020.<ref>{{cite news|title=Aspen Dental says Downtown move could lead to 400 new jobs|url=http://www.localsyr.com/news/aspen-dental-says-downtown-move-could-lead-to-400-new-jobs|accessdate=June 6, 2016|publisher=[[WSYR-TV]]|date=May 17, 2016}}</ref>

References

Details about the new facility could be placed at the end of the section, if strict chronological order is required, but I will leave that up to the reviewing editor(s). This proposal is to add more clarity and detail about ADMI's history, and is not intended to cover its legal issues, which should be discussed in more detail separately. In the full draft I suggested originally, you can see what might be added on that topic and I'd be happy to return with a further request on that later. For now, I'm trying to find some straightforward updates that are easier for editors to review.

As a reminder, reviewing editors are welcome to reference the full proposed draft for more context. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you! Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

@Oceanflynn: Noticing that you made some edits, I have been reviewing the details and wanted to discuss with you. While I may come back with some more things later, these are some proposals that are hopefully simple and uncontroversial:

In the "History" section, you may want to add the citations provided in my full draft.

Also, there is a sentence kept from the original text but is now redundant: In 1997, an investor acquired Upstate Family Denture Services, Inc., Upstate Denture Labs, Inc. and East Coast Dental Management, Inc. In 1998, Upstate Dental and East Coast Dental merged; the merged company was renamed Aspen Dental Management, Inc. The existing citation for this is a dead link, and the details are replaced by the next paragraph.

As a last note for this section, are you open to adding the details about the HQ move in 2006 and plans for 2017? You can see that information in the full draft linked above.

My main question about the "Operations" is whether you feel any of the new text I've proposed in my draft can be used. Right now, the section simply retains and expands on what was originally in the article but the details could be updated.

As a last point for now, in the "Controversies" section, I see you added in wording about the October 2012 suit but did not add that it was dismissed in 2015. Could this be added? My proposal here was: The United States District Court for the Northern District of New York dismissed the case in 2015.

To remind again, reviewing editors are welcome to reference the full proposed draft for more context. This request is on behalf of my employer, Aspen Dental Management, Inc. (ADMI). Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you! Stephanie from ADMI (talk)

 Done Hi Stephanie from ADMI, thanks for your edit request. I want to send my apologies for taking this long to get to your edit request. Unfortunately, there is quite a long backlog which is taking quite long to get through. I do thank you for your patience, however, and I'll try and review your edits today. I've been catching up with the previous discussion, but I'm accepting this edit request (involving the replacement of the first two paragraphs of History on the article). If there's anything I've left out, submit a followup edit request and ping me and I'll take a look at it for you. All the best, st170e 16:12, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

@St170e: Thank you for reviewing this edit request and the additional requests below. I appreciate your help. I just see one problem. With the addition of this text, the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of the "History" section are now redundant. Would you mind removing the 3rd and 4th paragraphs (starting at "In 1998" and ending at "Rhode Island")? Then I think we are set. I understand there is a long edit request queue. Your apology is not necessary, and thanks again for your help. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 14:11, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done @Stephanie from ADMI: I've performed this for you now. st170e 14:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

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Request to remove redundant content

I have submitted two edit requests above, but in both cases reviewing editors did not respond to my follow-up questions and concerns, so I am trying to find the best way to move forward. I recognize that Wikipedia editors are volunteers, and appreciate their time and assistance thus far, but unresolved concerns remain, so I plan to submit a series of short, specific edit requests in an attempt to improve the article.

As I mentioned in the above edit request, there is a sentence kept from the original text but is now redundant: In 1997, an investor acquired Upstate Family Denture Services, Inc., Upstate Denture Labs, Inc. and East Coast Dental Management, Inc. In 1998, Upstate Dental and East Coast Dental merged; the merged company was renamed Aspen Dental Management, Inc. The existing citation for this is a dead link, and the details are replaced by the next paragraph. Is there an editor who is willing to remove this sentence? @Oceanflynn: I am pinging you just in case you want to discuss. Thanks for your consideration. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 22:10, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

 Already done Hi Stephanie from ADMI, thanks for your edit. This has already been performed per the above edit request. st170e 16:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Request to add conclusion of 2012 suit

In the above edit request, an editor added in wording about the October 2012 suit but did not add that it was dismissed in 2015. My proposal here was: The United States District Court for the Northern District of New York dismissed the case in 2015. Could this be added to the "Controversies" section? The section seems incomplete, if not misleading, otherwise. @Oceanflynn: I'm sorry for the multiple pings, but I just want to make sure you're aware of the ongoing discussion(s) in case you want to contribute. Thanks again. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 04:01, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

References

 Done st170e 16:14, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Request to add 2006 headquarters relocation and future plans

Please see the edit request immediately above for context about why I've submitted this series of edits.

In the above edit request, I asked if an editor would be willing to add information about the company's headquarters relocation, plans to build a new facility in Syracuse in 2017, and a future staff expanson. I propose adding the following text: The company was initially headquartered in Salina, New York but in 2006 moved to a new headquarters near Syracuse in DeWitt. The new headquarters was designed to include a training center to cater for both Aspen Dental employees and other firms' training events. ADMI plans to move into a new facility in downtown Syracuse in 2017 and add up to a further 400 employees by 2020. Is there an editor who is willing to add this content to the "History" section, as seen in this full draft? @Oceanflynn: I am pinging you just in case you want to discuss. Thanks again. Stephanie from ADMI (talk) 04:04, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

References

 Already done I've already performed this edit per the above edit request. If there's anything I've left out, let me know. All the best, st170e 16:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

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Almost impossible to get record transfered to another Dentist office.

Im not receiving the urgent assistant I need from office personal. 2603:9001:303:2257:FF32:FE48:88BB:83F6 (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Infobox edit request

Hello editors, I'm Annie, and I'm here on the Aspen Dental article to propose a handful of edits that will (hopefully) improve it significantly through quality sourcing I've collected that is currently not in the article. To be completely transparent, I work for TAG (The Aspen Group), the parent company of Aspen Dental, and I explained in detail my COI on my user page here: User:Annie_at_TAG. I understand this article has a history of failed COI edit request attempts from many years ago. I hope the new available sources will better aid this attempt and that some of the structural problems with the article can be addressed in the future.

I've put together a simple request for my first proposed edit that updates the Infobox. Specifically, I made the following updates:

• Cited Chicago Tribune to add that Robert Fontana is the Chairman as well as the CEO.
• Cited that same Chicago Tribune article to update the amount of offices the company operates from 350 to 1,100.

Please read below:

Infobox draft
Aspen Dental Company type Subsidiary Industry Corporate dentistry Dental support organization Founded 1994 (1994) Founder Robert Fontana (CEO and Chairman) Headquarters Chicago, Illinois, U.S. Number of locations 1,100 offices Area served United States Services Manages branded Dental practices Website www.aspendental.com

References

Please let me know if there are any problems with this proposed update. I'd love to get editor feedback on this. Thank you so much, and I'll be around to respond. Annie at TAG (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The reference indicates that the 1100 locations are for the Aspen Group, not Aspen Dental. They are spread over "Aspen Dental, ClearChoice, WellNow and ChapterSM." Also, the designation as chairman is only in a photo caption so could use a better source. LizardJr8 (talk) 00:20, 22 November 2024 (UTC)