Talk:Airwolf (helicopter)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Comparison table

I added a comparison table to the Bell 222 per request at the bottom of the Specs section. -Fnlayson 04:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Does the Bell table with the 222, 222B, 222UT data stay or is that needed for something? -Fnlayson 01:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No, we can take it out. - BillCJ 02:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the crew and passenger entries on the comparison. In episode episode 4 Proof Through the Night, Airwolf cannot fly with five total personnel onboard, and the weapons pods must be removed to allow the added weight of two additional unseated people they need to squeeze into the helicopter.Angel the Techrat 02:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Over-broad headers

I've removed the over-braoad OR and refimprove headers from the top of the article because the page already has 8 citations, with 2 major sections sourced fairly well. Please use more-specific section an inline tags where needed. Thanks. - BillCJ 04:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of the sources are from what appears to be a fan site, and does not meet the requirements of being a WP:Reliable Sources. Eight citations is really not that much for the amount of details or length of this article. Meerkat Manor, for example, is not nearly as technical but about the same length and it currently has 21 unique citations. Adequate citations is important, particularly on topics in the TV area where fancruft is common. Citations help establish the article's legitimacy.

Also, two of the citations are on the same sentence (so really just one) and one is not a reference at all but a side note that appears to be original research. That brings it down to six. The section "The Airwolf Helicoptor" only has citations on sentences in the first two paragraphs, while the bulk of the section has none. The Bell 222 is the opposite, no citations in the first part, only in the last two paragraphs. The spec section has no citations in the specifications at all (the note saying see talk page is inappropriate, and not a citation). The missiles section has no citations at all. I thought a single OR and refimprove was appropriate, but at your request I've put a refimprove in all of those sections and I've now given you a more thorough explanation. AnmaFinotera 04:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Article Delete

I think this article should be deleted under the rules of notability and all the fictional information moved to the Airwolf article.Camilo Sanchez (talk) 03:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to file an AFD if you want, but when you do, you need to be very specific about how this article in non-notable per WP policies on notability. It won't get deleted just because you say it needs to be. - BillCJ (talk) 04:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles on fictional/fantasy aircraft

Television (fiction) shows have over the years depicted fantastic aircraft and other vehicles, like cars, than can do all kinds of impossible maneuvers, literally violating the laws of physics (Airwolf, Gerry Anderson's Skydiver, even Blue Thunder; and how about the Street Hawk attack motorcycle?). They also depict these aircraft as maintainable by one super-talented person who knows everything about computer science, mechanics, metallurgy etc. (but whose greatest appeal is sometimes that she's a young, well-endowed woman who tends to walk around in not very much clothing). I haven't done a full search on such a topic, but maybe we should create an article listing all of these.Raryel (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)Raryel

You mean something like List of fictional vehicles or List of fictional aircraft? - BillCJ (talk) 21:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Observations vs. analysis

It is one thing to describe the capabilities of Airwolf as seen in the show, but quite another to analyze and critique it's stated capabilities. The former is actually bases on the show, using the show itself as a source - that seems to be allowable, though I'm not all that comfortable personally with that. The second is just uncite original research and/or synthesis, neither of which are permitted per WP policies.

Aoother problem with the recent additions is that the questions raised are easily answered by someone who has seen most of the episodes in the show. Examples:

Airwolf was also maintained and repaired by, essentially, one person, and the show, of course, never fully explained how the airwolf team obtained spare parts and fuel, nor how the helicopter made its flights from its secret base to places such as eastern Europe.
- It's implied early on in the show's run that most of that is supplied by the Firm (or FIRM/F.I.R.M.).
While Airwolf is stated to be capable of in-flight refueling, episodes that feature long flights do not get into where Airwolf actually refueled.
- Usually in mid-air, hence the name "mid-air refuelling receptacle", as described by Moffet in the pilot. The probe is mounted on the right side of the nose, and Moffet describes it as the only vulnerable point on the aircraft.

Anyway, the text is not really the place to ask those kinds of questions, unless you're citing a published source covering the show/aircraft. We do actually need some sources like that, but most are over 20 years old, and probably hard to find. Some magazines and newspapers now have back issues availabe online that go that far back, so we might be able to track some down. - BillCJ (talk) 20:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Recall that the pilot is at odds with the firm (he stole the helicopter). Of course the firm doesn't steal it back. Oh well, I guess disbelief is suspended everywhere,eh?75.54.121.94 (talk) 21:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Recall that the firm does try to steal it back on several occasions. I get the impression you haven't seen as much of the show as you think. - BillCJ (talk) 21:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The firm doesn't try very hard. Maybe you should watch a few episodes again!Raryel (talk) 22:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that's the point! Also, comments go after the person's signature, and preferably at the end of the section. Anyway, the article is not a fan forumfor discussing or critiquing the show. If it's actually in the program, we can put it in, but speculation and synthesis have no place, and analysis must be based on reliable sources. Feel free to take out anyhting else you feel does not meet that standard. These types of articles are magnets for fans to add things to, and it's a constant battle to keep them trimmed. I think the lifting body statement was just a comment on the aerodynamic shape, not any claim that the 222 was a lifting body, as you seemed to tak it. But it's borderline commenbetween observation and ORt, so I won't put it back in, as it's kinda self-evident anyway. - BillCJ (talk) 23:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

A random note

There was a documentary on British tv channel channel 5 called Strangelove: My Car is My Lover where a guy said he had sex with the helicopter and showed pictures of himself kissing it. Might be worth a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.141.74 (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

No! Already been discussed on Airwolf talk page. -Fnlayson (talk) 03:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Missile questions

The pilot mentioned “nuclear-tipped shrike missiles”.
The, season-one, opening credits listed:

2 Bullpup missiles • 12 Sidewinder missiles • 10 Sunburst superfast missiles • 4 Agile missiles

The, season-two, internal controls list three missile types: [1]

Copperhead • Redeye • Hellfire

So we know that Airwolf had the following:

Sunburst anti-missile Flares (×10)

SEASON ONE

AGM-12 Bullpup missiles (×2)
AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles (×12)
AIM-95 Agile missiles (×4)
AGM-45 Shrike missiles

SEASON TWO

Leaving the following questions:

What is a “nuclear-tip” ?
The Shrike is an anti-radar anti-radiation missile, so was “nuclear-tipped” just a dramatic description for the senator during the pilot-episode demonstration, or are we to believe that Airwolf actually had tactical nuke warheads ?
1. How many Shrikes does Airwolf carry ?
Does Airwolf fire howitzer shells from the ADF Pod, or is the Copperhead something else ?
1. How many Copperheads / Redeyes / Hellfires does Airwolf carry ?
2. Does she still have the first-season missiles in season-two ?
Did Airwolf have stealth ?
Often mentioned by fans, but she still had to fly below-the-radar in the first-saeson.
1. Did actual stealth get added in seasons 2–4 ?
2. Or, was stealth used to describe the silent hover/flight mode ?

—MJBurrage 13:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC) Updated based on feedback below —MJBurrage 10:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a military weapons genius or anything, but I have to say, if memory serves me, the first time in my life that I ever heard of a "hellfire missle" came from this show when I was a kid and watched it religiously with Knight Rider and Street Hawk. So yes, I'm pretty sure Airwolf had Hellfire Missiles. I don't know exactly when or where it was mentioned, but I think it's safe to say she had them since they are designed specifically for helecopters (per the Hellfire article). Cyberia23 07:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Sunbursts were not missiles, but a type of flare. They usually "pop a sunburst" when a missile was fired at Airwolf. — Pixel8 21:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

According to my bootleg copy of what I assume to be the tech bible for the series (dated "Oct 11, 1984"), Airwolf is armed with (quote)

CHAIN GUNS -

Four 30-millimeter machine guns (2 per wing pod).

Rounds fired per minute - variable.

CANNON -

Two 40-millimeter cannon (1 per wing pod).

Rounds fired per minute - variable.

NOTE: Shell casing ejected from these weapons are recovered and retained until landing.

MISSILES: ADF Pod-launched -

HELLFIRE -- 6 Short-ranged air-to-surface.

REDEYE --- 12 Short-ranged air-to-air.

COPPERHEAD- 6 Long-ranged air-to-surface (tank-buster).

[description of ADF Pod and its feed system deleted]

MISSILES: Side-launched -

FALCON -- 4 Long-ranged air-to-air missiles carried two to a side in compartments at either side of the ADF Pod. They are self-guided or manually guided.

NOTE: After launch, any missile can be aborted in flight.

Exactly how many Falcon missiles does Airwolf carry and from where do they launch? I'm asking cause I was just the third season episode Where Have All the Children Gone? on SciFi. In the episode Hawke and Dom have to shoot down a MRV missile before it blows up DC, only they come to realize that their going to have to destroy all eight warheads individually cause they can't reach the missile in time before it releases the warheads. And they use Falcons to do so. So that's eight they've got to use, only Hawke missed like three or four times. Meaning he fired eleven or twelve Falcons, all of which came out of the tubes of the ADF. At one time he fired three at once. And yes, I'm positive he fired Falcons cause he asked Dom to arm the Falcons and the switch Dom hit clearly read Falcon. -annonymous 5/23/07

They also used Falcon's in the final sequence of second season episode "Firestorm", from the ADF pod.

-anonymous 5/26/07 (end quote)

The "FALCON" is a reference to the AIM-4 Falcon, specifically the AIM-26 Falcon, which was nuclear armed. DocWatson42 09:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In answer to the question about stealth, the "tech bible" mentions (under "IN-FLIGHT SYSTEMS"; quote–end quote):

A.S.P.J. - ADVANCED SELF PROTECTION JAMMER -

A radar-jamming system that sweeps ahead of the aircraft.

The "DEFENSE SYSTEMS" section (quote–end quote):

DECOY SYSTEMS -

SUNBURST DECOYS -

Flares ejected rearward to attract heat-seeking missiles.

CHAFF DECOYS -

Canisters ejecte rearward that explode, showering

bits of aluminum to confuse radar-guided missiles.

NOTE: These systems are stored together and launched

from the rear of AIRWOLF's avionics bays (port/stbd).

I.R. SUPPRESSORS -

Venetian blinding the exhaust emissions.

I.R. JAMMER -

Produces omnidirectional radiation of infrared energy

to disable IR tracking. An automatic system that needs

no missile approach warning. IT snaps on when scanned

by IR detectors.

RADAR JAMMER -

Produces multi-leveled decoy signals to confuse radar.

"Stealth" is not explicitly mentioned, nor is a "silent hover/flight mode". DocWatson42 08:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

"Stealth" is mentioned in the series, however... Airwolf has some stealth features mainly in the form of electronic jammers. The SR-71 also had stealth features, but could be seen on radar. It just depends on the conditions and situation. Airwolf's main advantage is high speed NOE flight to avoid detection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CK 7684 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Wing guns

There was a fan-produced tech manual that gave different details, but the plans shown on-screen state that the machine guns are .50 cal, and the cannon are 30 mm. —MJBurrage • TALK • 01:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The fan-produced tech manual, as you put it, was actually created by the show's Co-Producer, Carol Gillson in conjunction with Andrew Probert as a writers' bible. It was re-packed by the Airwolf Fan Club UK during the late 1980s/early 1990s as the 'AIRWOLF BIBLE'. SF 00:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I wonder why everybody keeps claiming that the machine guns are 30mm - they're smaller than the two cannons and look like M1919 machine guns, which would make them .30cal and the discussion would turn out to be a misunderstanding ;-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.183.244.238 (talk • contribs).

I think the machine guns are 30mm in the same way that Airwolf is supersonic :) - BillCJ 20:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

How true. What should one expect from a TV show where the actors constantly push the wrong (clearly labelled) buttons? Adjusting the radio frequency by turning the chaingun ROF knob... FURFFU! :-)

That was actually down to the shows "action" film editor, Leon Ortiz-Gil not having enough time to edit the aerial footage every week. These were in the Linear Editing days remember. They were under so much pressure to deliver the can to CBS every week that they just didn't have time to check it. Same for the above with the guns-in-guns-out bloopers. It was simply overlooked by Leon, Don Bellisario etc., it was nothing to do with the actors. SF 00:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The quad machine guns clearly are old-fashioned .30cals like the ones used by the Army as COAX or vehicle-mounted guns prior to the M60, and the cannon muzzles look like on a Bofors gun. I won't even comment on the idiocy of labeling Copperhead as AGM...

The four chain guns are .50 cals (shown on screen many times), they look unusual, because they were custom modified for filming. The actual barrels were hard to see on camera at a distance and so "barrel cooling sleeves" were added to make the barrels look larger. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 03:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

ADF Pod

I'd like to talk about the ADF pod. All Directional Firing was a great intention and all by Andrew Probert, Charles R. Davis and Gary Lee, but it was never shot doing a full 180 degrees on the show. Only time they ever shot tube-moving footage was by mid-3rd Season, specifically aerials in episodes like 'The Deadly Circle', 'Kingdom Come' and a few others. I'd suggest that the 180 degrees be changed to 90 degrees only and that is all that was ever shot for real. SF 00:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)