Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests
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Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2017
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I am requesting arbitration. Here's the situation: circa 2015 i tried to open a Wikipedia page for famous DJ Carnage. I was, however, rudely marked as "not suitable for an encyclopedia by the user Bbb23, despite the page being created a year later by another user: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_(DJ) Now, looking at his profile, it is clear he enjoys classic music and opera, which usually goes against Electronic music. Therefore, in "retaliation" for creating a page for a DJ, who plays music he probably dislikes, decided to mark my page as "unsuitable for an encyclopedia", which clearly makes no sense considering the page was in fact created.
I can understand somebody doesn't share my music tastes, I deal with that every day. However, it is no excuse to prevent the creation of a Wikipedia page for an artist of a genre you dislike. Vthebeast (talk) 07:35, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- This is the wrong forum for your concern. Arbitration is an extreme final step in the dispute resolution process, and it appears you have not even so much as discussed it with the user concerned or any other user. Please see dispute resolution. —KuyaBriBriTalk 07:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- (uninvolved editor note): I do like both styles of music (why not?) and highly doubt that this experienced administrator would like every electronic music article deleted for WP:IDONTLIKEIT... I wholeheartedly agree with Kuyabribri. If the issue is really discussing Bbb23's suitability, then you may try WP:AN, but beware of WP:BOOMERANG. I suggest to first try anything that doesn't involve the unnecessary attention of other administrators first (I even suggest the WP:Teahouse at this stage). If you opened an arbitration case, it would likely be closed immediately. — PaleoNeonate — 08:35, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Vthebeast: I sent you an invitation on your talk page. Enjoy, — PaleoNeonate — 08:41, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Vthebeast: Boomerang is right. Your two sentence stub contained no sources and was marked for deletion by another editor. You were informed by who and why here with no response from you. Then more than two years later you show up charging misuse of admin tools because of some perceived bias. I suggest you read WP:AGF and participate constructively here by working to improve the current article or creating new articles that meet our notability guidelines. --NeilN talk to me 08:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
WP:COSMETICBOT update
I'm not really quite sure where to post this, but WP:COSMETICBOT has been updated per this RFC. This is just a courtesy notice to WP:ARBCOM in light of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis. I feel this should probably be logged somewhere (Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log?), but clerks/ARBCOM can handle that if it's needed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:58, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Headbomb: Belated thanks for the update :) Come to think of it, I'm not sure if there's a typical mechanism for logging community actions following a case, but I'll take a look. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
- After asking around, it's not just me being forgetful; we apparently don't in fact generally log these. But we should! So I did, in the case enforcement log here. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:25, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
"Community encouraged" type remedies
Prompted by the above section, I did a quick scrape of cases from 2009 to 2017 with remedies involving "encouraging" (urging, advising, etc) editors to do some reasonably specific actionable task ("have an RfC" as opposed to "be more civil"), to see what the followup looks like for this type of case outcome. I'm probably missing a few remedies, but more importantly, I'm probably missing a few RfCs. Watchers, feel free to fill them in! Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Clarification request: Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection (May 2017)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_11#Arbitration_motions_regarding_extended_confirmed_protection
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- BU Rob13 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by BU Rob13
Way back when extended-confirmed protection (ECP) was first created, the Committee developed a motion about how extendedconfirmed as a user right interacts with discretionary sanctions and other specific remedies. Among this motion was a prohibition on individual administrators removing "extendedconfirmed" either as a discretionary sanction or to avoid an arbitration enforcement procedure. At the time, this prevented 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag, as ECP was only allowed in areas defined by the Committee.
Since then, the community has developed its own protection policy for applying ECP, but no policy is in place about adding or removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag. I had assumed the original motion prevented administrators from unilaterally removing the flag, since even removals unrelated to sanctioned areas would have unintended consequences on an editor's ability to edit those areas. Xaosflux pointed out to me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd like to clarify this. Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases? If no, are such removals acceptable in the absence of any community policy to the contrary / do they fall under admin discretion? ~ Rob13Talk 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad: The original motion by the Committee is linked above as the case/decision affected by this ARCA. The original RfC to allow admins to apply ECP to combat disruption occurred here. ~ Rob13Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: I'll preface this question by saying I'm undecided on this issue, so this is rhetorical, not my viewpoint. Vigilant Admin revokes Disruptive Editor's extendedconfirmed flag because they disruptively edited through ECP (e.g. edit-warring through ECP, etc). Disruptive Editor happens to participate in the Israeli-Palestinean conflict topic area in a constructive manner. Almost all IP conflict pages are under ECP solely because of the ArbCom motion requiring that all editors in that topic area have 500 edits and 30 days on-site. What happens now? Disruptive Editor is functionally topic banned from the IP conflict topic area under the existing ArbCom remedy and its current method of implementation. The only possible method to address this would be to remove ECP from any articles Disruptive Editor wants to edit in the IP conflict topic area and handle enforcement via blocks, but that is inconsistent with the current guidance at WP:ARBPIA3#500/30.
Basically, I see this as under ArbCom's purview because it either turns an existing ArbCom remedy into a de facto topic ban on certain editors or affects enforcement of the remedy. ~ Rob13Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- If the Committee doesn't see this as within its scope, I'm perfectly fine with that, but we still need to know what happens in the situation I outlined above. Does an editor whose extendedconfirmed flag was removed for reasons unrelated to arb enforcement become pseudo-topic banned from the IP conflict topic area, for instance, under current ArbCom remedies? If the answer is yes, that's fine, but it needs to be clear. ~ Rob13Talk 05:04, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- Alright, Opabinia regalis. If that's the answer, I'm fine with that. It probably means WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 can/should be re-written to ban editors without the extendedconfirmed flag from editing in the topic area, since that is simpler and more accurate. Future remedies restricting editing in such a way should also use such language. (And to be clear to other Committee members, I'm not and have never asked the Committee to control extended-confirmed protection itself outside arbitration areas - not sure why some people are commenting about controlling ECP. This is about the flag itself, which affects arb matters no matter why it's removed).
- @Mkdw: That's conflating the extendedconfirmed flag with extendedconfirmed protection (ECP). They are different. The Committee should absolutely not interfere with community based extendedconfirmed protection. No-one is arguing that. It's more questionable whether the Committee can/should interfere with removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag, which is currently used as the basis of arbitration remedies. I can certainly understand why arbitrators would say the extendedconfirmed flag is outside their jurisdiction - that is one reasonable view. That's very different from saying community-based extendedconfirmed protection is outside their jurisdiction, which is the only reasonable view on that separate issue. ~ Rob13Talk 23:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Xaosflux
My understanding is that only alterations of this user permission related to arbitration remedies are under the control of the arbitration committee - and that any other use is up to the community. Even directly related to use against sanctioned articles, administrative removal of this access has occurred, following community discussion, in instances where the prerequisites have been "gamed" (not as a discretionary sanction). My suggestion would be that the community should further discuss the revocation guidelines and process regarding this access group and document the administrator expectations. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Mz7
I'm inclined to agree with the arbitrators so far and say that the Committee cannot restrict revocations of the extendedconfirmed right outside of arbitration enforcement.
With that being said, I am not sure I like the idea of removing the flag as an enforcement measure for either community policy or arbitration. The extended confirmed flag was not intended to be a "special" user right, such as rollback, for example. If rollback is abused, the natural response is to simply revoke the rollback right. However, I see extended confirmed differently: revoking it as an enforcement measure is beyond the role that the community had originally envisioned for it, which is merely a technical checkbox that ticks for editors that have made 500 edits with 30 days account registration.
If an editor is truly editing disruptively (e.g. violating a topic ban, edit warring), we would use a block to prevent and deter further disruption. Revoking extended confirmed to respond to disruptive editing strikes me as a kind of "partial" or "lesser" block, which, as far as my knowledge goes, is unprecedented. Despite the absence of community policy regarding this, I would strongly advise administrators to wait until the community has discussed whether this kind of enforcement measure is acceptable before unilaterally applying it. I don't see it as part of admin discretion. Mz7 (talk) 04:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Beeblebrox
All other user rights that can be granted by a single admin can also be revoked by a single admin. This is as it should be and I believe we are in the realm of unintended consequences here. I believe the committee should act to clarify that its past standing on this issue either now invalid or only applies to arbitration enforcement actions. Again, I don't believe this was the intent but the committee appears to have created policy by fiat, which is not how it works. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection: Arbitrator views and discussion
- @BU Rob13: Could you please give us links to the policy pages and other discussions you are referencing? Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- With regard to revocation of extended-confirmed status, my understanding of the status quo is that it should not be removed as a sanction for poor-quality editing (e.g. in lieu of a topic-ban). However, it should be subject to removal when it was obtained illegitimately by gaming (e.g. with 500 trivial sandbox edits) in the first place; that is a different situation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad:, these are the motions from immediately after last year's rollout of the extendedconfirmed user group and protection level. (According to the history and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Motions, they were archived to the talk pages of the affected policies, but the links no longer work because the talk pages themselves have been archived; the protection policy one is here and the user right one is here.) Grnklaagheq!%$@# why do we do this, in the alternate universe where I'm Queen of Wikipedia, all arb business gets its own subpage in arbspace so it's actually searchable and doesn't have linkrot grumble mutter everybody get off my lawn. @BU Rob13:, your interpretation is how I originally wanted to do it last year (in fact, I wanted to make it technically irrevocable to remove the temptation), but after discussion the conclusion was that arbcom could only regulate admins' discretion to revoke the user right on matters directly under our scope, i.e. AE/DS matters. If an admin wanted to remove the user right due to disruption on pages that are ECP'd for other reasons, it would be up to the community to decide if that's acceptable. Personally, I think that's an undesirable inconsistency likely to lead to confusion (as this request shows). On the other hand, I feel less strongly about revoking EC now that we've had some experience with the system. On the third hand, I'm not sure that my change of view is actually well-informed or if it's just creeping complacency. The proliferation of user rights, and thus of opportunities for admins to try to "pull rank", doesn't seem to have slowed down any. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- BU Rob13 The argument I made last year (which I'm no longer so convinced of) is that ECP would never have come into existence as an option without the 30/500 remedy from the PIA3 case. There was never a community consensus for a new protection level; it was pulled out of someone's ass as an ad-hoc gamergate AE action and worked well enough that it was scaled up the next time a remedy was needed for a topic area beset with persistent, disruptive, and frequently offensive socking. Since the availability of ECP is 100% a consequence of an arbcom decision, that means that a) its general use is arguably still "our problem", and b) the part where arbcom makes policy even though it's not technically supposed to already happened when the PIA3 remedy was passed. As for your specific case, I think it's the same as any other user right - if you're disruptive using it for one thing, and you can't/won't stop the disruptive behavior, then you risk losing the ability to contribute even in other areas where you're not disruptive. We don't talk about a "topic ban on templates" if someone edits templates productively but loses their TE right because they edit-warred to put pictures of squabbling children in the ANI editnotice. Just kidding, actually I'd give that person a barnstar ;) Of course I hope that we see a great deal of caution from admins looking to remove the right for any reason other than gross abuse (500 sandbox edits repeatedly posting "I like pie" and so on), because the ability to unilaterally tell another editor "you're not good enough to sit at the big-boy table" has a high potential for toxic effects. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:51, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- Just to sum this up, I think there is consensus here that removing the extendedconfirmed user group outside an AE/DS context is out of our domain and up to the community to sort out. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:00, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- BU Rob13 The argument I made last year (which I'm no longer so convinced of) is that ECP would never have come into existence as an option without the 30/500 remedy from the PIA3 case. There was never a community consensus for a new protection level; it was pulled out of someone's ass as an ad-hoc gamergate AE action and worked well enough that it was scaled up the next time a remedy was needed for a topic area beset with persistent, disruptive, and frequently offensive socking. Since the availability of ECP is 100% a consequence of an arbcom decision, that means that a) its general use is arguably still "our problem", and b) the part where arbcom makes policy even though it's not technically supposed to already happened when the PIA3 remedy was passed. As for your specific case, I think it's the same as any other user right - if you're disruptive using it for one thing, and you can't/won't stop the disruptive behavior, then you risk losing the ability to contribute even in other areas where you're not disruptive. We don't talk about a "topic ban on templates" if someone edits templates productively but loses their TE right because they edit-warred to put pictures of squabbling children in the ANI editnotice. Just kidding, actually I'd give that person a barnstar ;) Of course I hope that we see a great deal of caution from admins looking to remove the right for any reason other than gross abuse (500 sandbox edits repeatedly posting "I like pie" and so on), because the ability to unilaterally tell another editor "you're not good enough to sit at the big-boy table" has a high potential for toxic effects. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:51, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think it's appropriate for the Arbitration Committee to dictate how ECP is applied (or removed) outside of arbitration remedies. As I see it, we only have the authority to impose the limits we imposed in that remedy when they are a part of a set of restrictions created for a particular arbitration case. Applied more broadly, this would be a case of the Arbitration Committee dictating policy. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: You do have an interesting point about the possible grey area of an administrator removing the extendedconfirmed flag from a user who has been disruptive on articles that are 500/30-protected (but not by arbitration decisions) and who actively edits articles under arbitration-related 500/30 protection. I think it's reasonable to trust administrators to make this kind of judgment call if and when it comes up, and either err on the side of caution and pursue other resolutions, or at least provide a solid justification for the removal based on the editor's behavior in the articles protected outside of arbitration decisions. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
- I think we can provide clarification on ECP in regards to ArbCom remedies and sanction areas only, and I'm inclined to agree with Xaosflux that the community must decide how they'd like to handle it in all other situations. Mkdw talk 03:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: The main question in your initial statement was:
Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases?
- I don't think anyone thought you were asking the Committee to control areas outside arbitration areas, but it's a point of clarity needed to answer your question which asks about "all cases" (including outside arbitration areas). We're saying it's not and why (being it's outside our authority on the matter). Mkdw talk 21:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: I've been talking broadly about ECP meaning to include XCON, which I could have been more specific or accurate about, because my point is that anything outside an ArbCom area relating to ECP including how the user right is managed should be in the hands of the community. It's for the community to decide, in those cases, whether it's managed at the discretion of administrators or not, and not something ArbCom can answer or motion into existence. The best I think this ARCA could do is highlight that gap and the community could seek to put something in place. That's why I've put an emphasis about jurisdiction. If that makes sense. Mkdw talk 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that in regard to ECP we do not have the authority to control it outside Arbitration remedies that include it. In all other cases it is up to the community. Doug Weller talk 18:45, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13:, I don't interpret the motion as preventing " 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag". If we meant it that way we would have worded it that way. We gave. as you point out, two instances of when it couldn't be removed, "as a discretionary sanction" and "as a means of bypassing arbitration enforcement procedures". I don't read that as forbidding an Administrator from removing ECP from someone whose only edits are sandbox edits. At least for me, one of the reasons for 500 edits is to aid new users in understanding our policies and procedures and to interact with other editors, and 500 sandbox or other trivial edits don't do that. Doug Weller talk 14:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- While the original motion was designed to handle how the new permission would be handled with regards to ArbCom related matters (with its usage outside ArbCom matters to be determined by the community), its usage and scope has grown significantly since then. In response to your question Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases?, the answer is no (although like OR, my preference as an editor/administrator would for it to have been technically irrevocable). It was only intended to prevent removal as a discretionary sanction or to avoid having to enact a topic ban. It may be worth reviewing the merits of that motion again, as the usage of Extended Confirmed has spread well beyond its original intended use. --kelapstick(bainuu) 04:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the others. Use outsides Arb remedies is a matter for the community, unless the specific matter should happen to come within jurisdiction for some reason.I'm glad we were able to find something the community considers more generally useful, but that's up to the community. DGG ( talk ) 01:21, 21 May 2017 (UTC)