Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests

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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 20 Apr 2024 04 May 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Conflict of interest management 13 Apr 2024
Mzajac 7 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing none (orig. case) 30 April 2024
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4 none (orig. case) 13 May 2024
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation none (orig. case) 13 May 2024

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/How-to

Current requests

Christopher Walter Monckton, Third Viscount Monckton of Brenchley

Initiated by the subject at 28 August 2007

Involved parties

The subject

The subject is the maker of the request. He and others have repeatedly tried to prevent posting of libelous material in a section entitled "philosophical and/or political views" which has been inserted into his biographical entry. At present, for instance, there is a reference to an article by George Monbiot, but no reference to the strongly-worded correction which the newspaper in question was compelled to print the following day. The subject has contacted the complaints team, and has given warnings that libel proceedings will follow if the libelous material continues to be posted. All attempts to prevent the libels, including a recent but now-withdrawn full protection of the page, have been unsuccessful. Balancing material is repeatedly removed, and hostile material inserted, to create a false, unfair, and detrimental impression of the subject's competence.

Statement by the subject

To settle this matter, and to prevent future libels, I should be grateful if my biographical entry were deleted altogether from Wikipedia. Accurate biographical entries are available in Who's Who, Debrett's People of Today, etc., so the Wikipedia entry is not needed. I am mortally ill and do not want my reputation degraded so unfairly at the close of my life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mofb (talk • contribs)

Comment by uninvolved Sam Blacketer

See Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley and its talk page. The reference above to a "strongly-worded correction which the newspaper .. was compelled to print" in fact refers to Christopher Monckton's own reply, which was printed in The Guardian on page 37 on 15 November, 2006; the above gives the incorrect impression that it was a newspaper correction rather than a 'right to reply' which The Guardian did not endorse. The piece was printed in a column called "The Response" which is described by the paper in the following terms: "The Response column offers those who have been written about in the Guardian an opportunity to reply". Sam Blacketer 11:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)


Bharatveer

Initiated by Moreschi Talk at 14:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

(substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a party is an administrator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

[1]

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
Given the nature of request, mediation is not really relevant: this is a long-term behaviour pattern, not a dispute over one single article, or even a set of articles. User has been warned ad nauseam about his conduct, and given his block log he must surely be aware of problems. I doubt an RFC would accomplish anything. Moreschi Talk 10:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Moreschi

I'm coming to this from what's virtually an external perspective - one brush with this user at Out of India theory excepted.

Bharatveer (talk · contribs) has a long history of disruption of Wikipedia, particularly on India-related articles, and Hindutva-related ones in particular. He's been blocked 5 times for 3RR violations, most recently by myself a couple of days ago. To a certain extent, however, the 3RR blocks serve to hide a massive amount of edit-warring - a review of his contributions has shown that in some weeks over half his edits are reverts. This is in addition to persistent incivility and personal attacks, which continue to this current date. User:Moreschi/Bharatveer documents some of the problems. Even when not violating 3RR, he will simply not leave the edit-warring alone. I am asking the arbitration committee either to consider supervised editing and revert limitation, or a ban for a year. Moreschi Talk 14:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bakasuprman

Moreschi has already been criticized for poor admin judgment for an illegitimate block of myself in June, undone with the support of legitimate admins in the community. The real issue is that he is irreconcilably biased against the political viewpoint he supposed Bharatveer to espouse. The fact that no RFC/mediation has been brought is another signal that this is a witchhuny against bharatveer. I urge arbcom to reject this case.

Clerk notes

  • Bharatveer is currently blocked for a week: he should probably be unblocked to participate in this. Moreschi Talk

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)


Dalmatia

Initiated by Isotope23 talk talk at 16:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Article Jakov Mikalja should also be took in consideration. One of key examples.

Statement by Isotope23

There is an ongoing dispute between numerous editors pushing several POV's at Dalmatia related articles. The problem is that the core content disputes are not being resolved because a number of these editors have resorted to disruptive edit warring and gaming the system, sometimes in tandem with fellow editors, in an attempt to get their POV represented in the articles. I can point to a few recent examples:

[3], [4], [5], [6]

[8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]

User talk:Isotope23/Archive 10#Direktor and Albania Veneta

These are just from the last few days and only from a few articles... there has been more of this sort of behavior at other related articles and it may not be simply restricted to the editors I've named here; there may be related editors who's contributions to this edit warring need to be considered. The reason I'm bringing this before the committee is that it would seem from the recent article RFC diffs I've show, that a User conduct RFC on these editors will likely just devolve into a messy squabble that won't resolve anything. It appears to me that the only way this will get resolved is if someone else steps in.

Statement by DIREKTOR

First of all, I must say I am truly sorry things devolved into this. However, the problem really appears to be unsolveable by other means. Here's my side of the story.
The matter involves Dalmatia - related articles that have become veritable battlegrounds between the Croatian (Slavic) faction and the Venetian (Italian) faction (mostly consisting of one user, Giovanni Giove).

Now here we have a user, Giovanni Giove, that attempts to make the history of Dalmatia and its cities (Zadar, Dubrovnik or Ragusa) sound as Italian as possible. Without regard to the following facts: 1) Dalmatia is part of Croatia, 2) Dalmatia was Italian for a period of 377 (1420 - 1797) years (and a few cuturally almost insignificant, much shorter periods before the largest one, in total amounting to circa 400 years of Venetian rule), 3) the latin culture (mixed with the Slavic) before that period was not Italian, but Dalmatian (unless of course Roman Empire = Italy, as was frequently stated by this user's classic Mussolini rhetoric). 4) Inernational names that happened to be used for Dalmatian cities in (mostly the first three quarters) of the 19th century have no significance when writing about things and events not of that period (like the Republic of Ragusa, for example).

I would also like to make this clear: the user employs unorthodox methods in pursuing his view. Giove's standard "modus operandi" includes slandering other people to Administrators he thinks he can sway or that he thinks might have sympathies for his "plight". Besides this his tactics include starting RfCs immediately after editing articles in hopes that he might be able to convince others (preferrably Admins) that anyone who touches his version afterwards is an agressor or vandal and he an advocate of "peace". That's the way he tries to make things stick. He then uses painfully obvious and childishly plain sockpuppets, like the one that stated the "FASCIST ITALY was great" on my talkpage, or the one that filed a complaint against me, an apparently independant bystander that simply could not stand my tyrannical ways any longer, imagine. Just have a look at the new victim he thinks might be biased in advance: Steel359. I of course will not stand by and let him slander me, so I have to respond. And so it goes on... Recently this user started 2 RfCs, according to his tactics and (besides editing the text and calling others who do the same vandals due to the RfC) then actually began editing other people's comments therein (against the rules, I believe), according to some invented "rules" of his own about what info someone may or may not add to the RfC. He seems to persist in the belief (despite being numerous times advised to the contrary) that if he posted the RfC, he now has the right to change what is written there to his liking. He has a very liberal view on pesonal attacks: he called it a personal attack, for example, when a user complained about his removing and/or editing of other people's comments. He deleted the complaint promptly off the RfC, of course. Thanks. P.S. Welcome to the Balkans! DIREKTOR 17:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zenanarh

I'm not on the parties list, anyway since I've been involved in this matter I'll write a few words here. Nobody's happy about this, on the other hand something should be done to stop such unacceptable situation concerning a several articles about Dalmatia and Dalmatian cities. A group of us (Croatian users) are having continual problems with Giovanni Giove on these articles. We are not some organized group with purpose to push our POV. In the contrary, Giove's behaviour created a group of us with same problems.
Zadar article as example: I really don't like to get personal but in this case I should be a little bit, fact is that Giovani was using extreme POV source [16] - Italian Irredentismo page for editing this article. If you are not familiarized with Italian irredentism... well it's quite enough to say that it would be the same as if Neo-Nazis edit Jews article by using Mein Kampf as source. Maybe not the same but pretty close... Every my attempt to edit objective data was stopped and reverted by mr. Giovanni. All my edits were followed by relevant sources (scientific researches published by "University of Science and Arts" in Zadar). He simply ignored any of my comments and sources acussing me for being a "Croatian nationalist". Why? Just because I disputed his edit? When I warned him a few times not to use POV sources he accused me for personal attacks. It's absolutely the same pattern which he uses with other users too.
One of my first experiences with him was this: [17],[18], precisely he inserted template:suspected sockpuppet on my user page and accused me of being a sockpuppet of some other banned user with no any reason and without any explenation where his suspicions came from! It was a few days after I was logged for the first time on Wiki and day after I have come with rich sources [19], [20] which were disputing some of his edits about the population of the city, Zadar article. As you can see he didn't contributed to the discussion on the Talk:Zadar. He simply tried to solve his problem of my "existance" by marking me as somebody else's sock puppet. According to WP:HARASSMENT (section: "User space harassment"): "Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page..., placing 'suspected sockpuppet'...on the user page of active contributors...and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.".
Another example of his behaviour: first RFC was started at the Zadar talk page [21] where he wrote this comment: You have not intoduced the sources!!! After all my hard work with presenting sources (and work of other users too). It's transparent at the talk page. This user simply doesn't want to see other people's work and he's absolutely blind for other users sources. He acts like it doesn't exist. Here you can see just a little part of his argues with other users: [22], see section "Why such words?". Actually all that page is a kind of dossier.
Now the best of all comes: his "conduction" of 2 Requests for Comment on the articles Republic of Ragusa and Zadar that he started. In both cases the same thing. Example - Zadar RFC: he firstly changed the article into his version [23], [24], immidiately after that he put the tags [25] and started RFC [26]. When other users wrote their first comments he interfered by changing it.
Any of our attempts to find some solution was stopped in the beggining, this person simply doesn't collaborate neither on the talk pages, neither in the articles.
After all I really don't know what to say, so a part of my comment here is copy of my comment on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Thanks. Zenanarh 18:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Giovanni Giove

user:DIREKTOR is a flamer and an alleged multi banned user [27], and it is enough to check his behaviour in his different edits. The situation was hard, due the different POVs between Italy and Croatia. But after him is totally degenerated. I can answer point by point to the alleged accusation by Zenanarh. I am the only Italian user here, to edit Dalmatia's articles, a (formerly) mixed region, inhabited by Italians, Croats and Serbs. The official POV of Croatian history is to deny the simple presence of Italians, presented as a 'Croatian of Italian language' (pro-Italian). I NEVER used 'Irridentismo' talk page, that was not an extreme movement, but just the counterpart of the Slavic Illyrian movement. In the history of Zara/Zadar my main source was Britannica1911, whose content was significantly altered by user:DIREKTOR, with no kind of discussion. Zemarth just inserted Kbytes of questionable copy&paste with no conclusions and comments. If a paragraph is questionable I edit a line and I insert the source.

  • My proposed version of Zadar's history is here [28]. It was TOTALLY sourced (from Britannica). The sense was totally respected. The sources presented in a proper way. It had a first a massive revert by user:No.13, see [29]. Shortly later (see [30]) user:DIREKTOR started his own undiscussed and unsorced edits, to impose Croatian POV, later defended with edit wars.Giovanni Giove 11:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A recent example of the attitude of Zenanarh to impose Croatian POV[31]
  • Two significant comments on Marco Polo talk page [32]. The article was previously vandalized by user:Factanista, sockpuppet of user:Afrika paprika
  • Here DIREKTOR remove sources to claim the official language was not Italian [33](as quite well known). Despite several requests, he never presented a source to attest that Dalmatian language was the official language.

Statement by Kubura

Despite numerous invitations to discuss (on article talkpages Talk:Jakov Mikalja, Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik, even his talkpage User talk:Giovanni Giove#Why_such_words.3F) matters where we couldn't make consensus, user Giovanni Giove ignored them.
Even when I begged him to do so Talk:Jakov Mikalja#.3D.3DEspecially on article Jakov Mikalja. All his actions were editing in form he wants to be, with ignoring otheruser's invitations. He even childishly rejected any answers given (see Talk:Jakov_Mikalja#Works_about_Jakov_Mikalja.
All his "discussion" with opponents is "you're vandal", "you'll be reported to admins", "end of discussion", "dispute is over", "now it's referenced", that's vandalism", "that's falsificiation", "that's not a trustable source... see also his answer User talk:Giovanni Giove#Dispute_is_over.
We had cases of Giovanni Giove's edit-slaughter (edit-slaughter: while opponents respect the rule "don't do anything on the article till consensus made on Rf..", at the same time, vandal-slayer freewillingly and with attitude "who-cares-for-idiots-that-obey-the-rules-and-do-nothing", edits the article the way he wants it to be, or POV-ize it). His recent edit without discussion (on article Jakov Mikalja was [34], and after user Zmaj's revert (note:rv back - user Giovanni Giove reverted the edits of a total of 8 editors), Giove again made his actions [35]. Both his actions were made Aug 27. Of course, he gave no explanations on talkpage.
He belittles the sources from small nations (especially Croats), even if those are scanned pages (of original documents, not just scientific works) and catalogue search results from the libraries of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts or from Faculty Philosophy from Zagreb. Here're the sections with scans and catalogue results Talk:Republic_of_Dubrovnik#Illyrian_language, Talk:Republic_of_Dubrovnik#Croathood_of_Dubrovnik_and_translations, Talk:Republic_of_Dubrovnik#The_name_of_the_country
When I gave him the source Talk:Jakov_Mikalja#Works_about_Jakov_Mikalja in Italian, published by local Italian Academy of Sciences and Arts, he gave childish denying answer, and later didn't answered at all. But he did edited.
He turns the articles into his propaganda about his ideas about Croatian language history (he makes his original research there, instead discussing it on proper page). I gave him long descriptive message, but invain. All answers I got was "Stop to play Kubura. Now the article is totally referencied. Your personal opinions about the therm 'serbocroatian' are meaningless here. Most funny thing is, that he speaks against the sourcesite which he gave as his "trustable source". See Talk:Jakov Mikalja#Sources_in_Italian.
I've explicitly warned him on his behaviour many times (just type Ctrl+F and type "warned" on Talk:Jakov Mikalja, Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik and User talk:Giovanni Giove. Kubura 15:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All your sources has been surpassed by my sources about the Serbocroatian language.. Finally I shall remember that you are famous (even in Italian wiki) for your extreme nationalistic ideas. Finnaly I want tell you a futher time, that your edits about the 'Croathood..." and so on are useless. We do not deny the city was Slavic (and Italian), on the other side YOU simple deny the presence of the Italians in all Dalmatia and Ragusa--Giovanni Giove 16:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved DarkFalls

The conflict of the ethnicity issues between the Croatian and Italian users in this debate started in the article, Zadar. After attempting to stop the edit warring on Zadar many times [36] [37] [38], I started an RfC regarding the article [39]. After the request for comment obtained no result and the edit warring on many other articles began, I started a mediation request regarding the articles involved. This can be viewed at Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Rejected/28#Zadar or at this deleted revision. After the mediation request was rejected, the edit warring reappeared in many articles (Mainly those that Isotope mentioned) Relevant discussions by the involved parties to my talk page are listed:

Other articles also involved include:

All of these articles have generated much heated discussions and edit warring over the ethnicity of the people and the historical and current ownership by Italians/Croatians. For Zadar, the main conflict was over POV differences, and the naming conventions of the article needs to be clarified (The name of Zadar in history and whether the current name (Zadar), or the historical name in time of Italian occupation (Zara).)

You forgot to mention:
--Giovanni Giove 21:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by semi-involved Adam Bishop

They were (and to some extent still are) also edit warring over Fourth Crusade (but strangely, not the Siege of Zara article). They have mostly stuck to the talk page since I threatened to block them all (very un-wiki-like, I know!).

Clerk notes

This case now has 4 votes to open. Absent further developments, to be opened on Tuesday. Newyorkbrad 20:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (4/0/0/0)

User:Vintagekits

Initiated by User:SqueakBox at 21:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

I have informed all mentioned parties of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

SirFozzie offers unblock conditions

Statement by User:SqueakBox

I am not directly involved in the dispute but as nobody has so far brought this case to arbcom I am going to be bold. VK was recently indefinitely blocked in a case that has brought up many strong feelings from editors who believe this block is both wrong and partial given that this case involves various parties editing two subject areas, Irish republicanism and the British nobility. There have been many arguments and blocks and nastiness on both sides and IMO the arbcom needs to pass judgement on the case and take whatever remedies it feels necessary, SqueakBox 21:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Vintagekits

Statement by retired User:Gold_heart

Before I begin, I would like to draw attention to the sterling work carried out by the Editors, Admins, and the Arbitrators of Wikipedia. It has been a pleasure to work with the many who have given their time, dedication and knowledge to this great world endeavour, and I am certain that all good people here will bid them success. Duty has now called on the Arbitration Committee to decide on matters of such crucial importance, so important indeed that the solution could fundamentally change some of the workings of Wikipedia into the future. Again we sit here at this moment in time, and ask the Arbitrators to perform that task, on our behalf.

Vintagekits (Vk), a bright, intelligent editor with over 12,000 edits to his credit was last month, thrown a “buoy made of lead” , and was told to swim, i.e. the “SirFozzie parameters”,. He had on many occasion been the recipient of the infamous ”argumentum ad hominem” tactic, that regressive style of personal attack that causes so much anger, and anguish on Wikipedia. No doubt, Vk became quite discomposed on at least one occasion as a consequence of these ongoing attacks, however I must also give him empyreal recognition and credit for the many many times he showed exemplary calm, dignity and restraint under the barrage of extreme provocation. Though the arguement of ”post hoc ergo propter hoc” (it happened after, so it was caused by), can quite correctly be reasoned for here, nevertheless it cannot be positively sustained as part of an overall solution in this particular instance, yet it can quite naturally assist for mitigation purposes. As has been noted, Vk had been goaded as a direct consequence of the stringent conditions recently imposed by the “SirFozzie parameters”. The relevant articles are usually Northern Ireland related, and doubtless, the long struggle there for civil rights and the resultant armed conflict is well known to many of us here at Wikipedia. This conflict goes way back to the Plantation of Ulster in the seventeenth century. With a political agreement now in place, and not everyone contented, there is the distinct possibility that some political agendas within Northern Ireland are entering a new phase here in cyberspace, via www.en.wikipedia.org. Consequently, differences of opinion have played a factor in the manner in which some of these articles are presented. There are a couple of handfuls of editors involved, chiefly from United Kingdom and to a much lesser extent from Ireland, who have clashed on occasion. But really this is very far from an edit-war, and relationships are overwhelmingly cordial most of the time. Nevertheless, with the “SirFozzie parameters” applied, Vk found himself with a Sword of Damocles dangling over his head, and this “sword” could only terminate with an inevitable fall, and accordingly it did. Can we afford to lose VK? In my opinion no. With over 12,000 edits, and rarely in big trouble, I argue for Vk to stay.

There is a solution in my mind, and may I offer it here. This would involve the nomination of a panel of ”3 wise Admins” to look after unforeseen events. I propose the nomination of the now familiar admins, SirFozzie and Alison, and one other admin, (but not Rockpocket as he is seeking a permanent block). Vk would be allowed his opinion on the establishment of the three, but not have the final say. Then in the event of a major transgression, and with the approval of at least 2 of the ”3 wise Admins”, Vk could be the subject of a punitive block for some hours, or at max a week. Any longer than a week’s block, an outside admin would be required to deliberate on the matter at hand. Ideally, these penalties would never need to be invoked. These measures would hopefully assist with the “conflict resolution”, and create a desirable outcome leading to the following. (1) Would remove the psychological pressure, and the feeling of victimhood away from Vk, thereby acting as a cushion, and leading to calmer editing. (2) Would also lead to greater respect, and caring among the Wikipedian community. (3) Would build confidence between the involved British and Irish editors. (4) Would send out the message that "mob rule" does not work on Wikipedia. (5) Would ensure a fairer system of jurisprudence, and not a continual “block threat” – This whole issue is so vitally important, because if Wikipedia loses editors like Vk, there will be another culprit, and another culprit, year after year, after year, thereby irreparably damaging the Wikipedia project. Can Wikipedia continually sustain this? I believe that it cannot.

By way of illustration, this running saga reminds me of Victor Hugo’s great novel, ”Les Misérables ”. An editor makes a faux pas, and is never to be left at peace, now pursued by Javert type characters, forever watching his every move, and ready to pounce for the least of infringements. Even Jean Valjean, Hugo’s hero, would have resigned to despair with the chivvy that Vk had to endure, I suspect.

To conclude, my suggestions could go some way to help repair this contravention. Following the passing of some time, things will settle down and all will be forgotten about. New editors will come on stream, and some will be looking for guidance, and who better to help them, but the old hands? I believe that this is the time to grasp the opportunities, not to forestall, and not leave them to wither unsung. .- User:Gold_heart17:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Extra Comment. Some weeks ago I retired from Wikipedia, and scrambled my password. I believe that this issue is important, and thus my reason for this one final interjection. I feel that rudeness is quite prevalent, and there are many many editors who sometimes and unnecessarily resort to thus, including some of the Admins. In most cases it can add to the cut and thrust of discourse, and is quite easily forgiven, and at other times it can get out of hand. And that applies to many of us.- User:Gold_heart17:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Rockpocket

As far as I recall my first major involvement in an administrative capacity was when another editor approached me for assistance with some convincing evidence that Vintagekuts was recruiting meatpuppets off-wiki. The clearly stated purpose of this was to votestack on Afds. This editor expressed to me that he would rather remain anonymous for fear of threats of retribution from Vk (with time this precaution came sharply unto focus). I offered to present the evidence on his behalf. The evidence can be viewed at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Vintagekits and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Vintagekits. The latter report was closed by Will Beback (talk · contribs) with the conclusion "it is clear to me that these accounts are either sock puppets of VK or are meat puppets controlled by him. I will block these accounts indefinitely. VK has been blocked seven times since January, and also has a proven history of using sockpuppet accounts." [40] An ANI discussion on what action to take (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive262#Vintagekits, redux) generated consensus on a one week block followed by civility parole by SirFozzie (talk · contribs). This had limited success; SirFozzie blocked Vk for further "WP:CIVIL violations" within a month [41] and I issued several warnings, including one [42] for a typical attack [43] (Note: Vk appears to think that the swapping of, or addition of letters disguises his regular use of the word "cunt" in reference to other editors [44].) Just over a month after being placed on civility parole I blocked Vk for 31 hours for a number of attacks, culminating in this edit (which is typical of his combative attitude towards Wikipedia). This resulted in further attacks, threats, paramilitary rhetoric and so, on. So I indef blocked and immediately asked for an independent review at AN (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive97#Block Review - Vintagekits). The consensus, including Vk's mentors, was to maintain the indef block. In the meantime, the abuse continued by email, along the same lines, but with the added threat of personal violence against me and some hints that he indended to get revenge off wiki.I can forward them to ArbCom on request.

After an apology from Vk (the tirade was alcohol induced, apparently) and a campaign by a number of supporters to unblock him, Vk was unblocked by myself on his explicit agreement [45] to a self imposed ban on certain articles, to avoid conflict and uphold the "utmost level of civility" meaning he was "going to have to be on your best behavior no matter what" [46] [47]. Although Vk's ban was in the area of Irish Republicanism, it was made clear to him that the point was to avoid conflict, and wiki-lawyering around this would not be acceptable. Indeed, in this spirit he agreed to consult an admin before editing "articles tangential the subject-specific ban (like contentious British issues such as the Falkland and Gibralter)." [48] Despite this, and fully aware that the prior conflict on Republicanism articles had spilled over onto articles about baronetcies, Vk waited less than 24hrs before editing an article on Sir George Dick-Lauder, 12th Baronet [49] Inevitably, Vk found himself in conflict on this subject before long, leading to a block by BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs). In the immediate aftermath of this, it was reported that Vk sent abusive emails to both his mentor Alison (talk · contribs) for not supporting him, apparently, and to BrownHairedGirl. This was just eight days after Vk had been unblocked, having been indef blocked for the exact same behaviour. At this point Alison then indef block Vk again for "making clear threats regarding another editor's home address" [50], but for obvious reasons did not elaborate. I reviewed Vk's recent edits, identified two edits that appeared suspect and contacted Alison privately to confirm those were the reason for the indef block. She confirmed to me they were. With this information to hand, and considering Vk was already on parole from an indef block, had sent abusive emails yet again and has a long history of seriously disruptive editing, incivility, sock- and meat puppetry, I believe Vk's negative impact on the project grossly out-weighs any benefit he may offer. I propose he remain blocked indefinitely and placed among the Wikipedia:List of banned users. I am aware of a history of disruptive editing from a number of other editors named in this request, and support an ArbCom inquiry into those editors also. I do not believe I, personally, have used sysop tools in anything other than a neutral manner, in an effort to protect the project from disruptive editing. Rockpocket 22:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Kittybrewster

I am one of many Users who has interacted at some stage with User:Vintagekits. I have found him to have been persistently provocative in attacking articles created or edited by me and others, some of which were articles about baronets. It seems he is deeply opposed to anything connected to the British establishment, titled people, etc. He has threatened to and has tagged numerous articles nn or fact or afd. Other users have waded in to back him up in this, including numerous editors some of whom are members of the Irish Republican project (notably User:One Night In Hackney, User:Domer48, User:Derry Boi) and editors who are not (e.g. User:Padraig, User:Giano II and User:SqueakBox) Other SPAs and possible meat/sock puppets have emerged from time to time, some of whom (eg User:Thepiper User:Stramash) are still around. Some of those were invited by Vintagekits specifically to assist in vote-stacking at afds. At no stage has VK accepted any responsibility for his own actions and for drumming up support off-wiki.

Wikipedia is not a battleground. Nor is it a soapbox.

After this had been going on for several months a few administrators were drawn in, all of whom are listed above (I think). They have done a superb job in trying to stop this dissolving into total chaos but they have been accused by VK and others of having been partisan. I don’t believe those accusations.

My analysis is that VK is a very angry person who should have been restricted to writing articles about boxers – where I am told he contributed constructively and uncontroversially (I have no view on that). He was allowed past his first indefinite block on condition that he behave impeccably in future. He has failed to do this and administrators blocked him indefinitely as a result. Other editors (User:Giano II and User:Squeakbox) claim VK may have been provoked or goaded into resuming his poor behaviour. They claim they want to achieve a full inquest to ensure things have been fair. From what I have seen the admins concerned have been fair and patient to a degree.

  • The more I think about this, the more I think the answer is 42 – but what is the question? Somebody summed it up a long time ago but I have forgotten where that analysis is. Broadly I think there are four questions

1. Is VK’s block appropriate? 2. Was he pushed into his behaviour? 3. Are SqueakBox, Giano_II and Vk himself seeking to become famous for a moment by expanding this mess (under the guise of fairness for all)? 4. If so is an expanded enquiry appropriate?

Statement by User:SirFozzie

I am not really much surprised that this case has made its way to ArbCom. I have recently returned from an attempted vacation (and still on a semi-sabbatical from WP due to health issues). My two cents.. as I said on the Great Irish Famine ArbCom.. this is one of the biggest long-term edit warring groups I have ever seen on Wikipedia, both in terms of numbers and in terms of people. We have the whole smorgasboard of ill done deeds.. threats, edit wars, sockpuppets, POV Pushing.. you name it.. it's happened in this group. I strongly urge the ArbCom to take the issue, and take whatever means necessary to end this war, once and for all, even if it means blocking everybody (and I do mean EVERYBODY.) Half-measures will mean that we have to do this again, eventually. SirFozzie 21:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Statement by User:SirFozzie

What you are seeing with the sniping and issues between the groups is generally what goes through the whole set of articles. Members of both sides have dug in, and the resulting edit wars have forced several people to retire (like User:Gold_Heart, and others (like Vintagekits) who've basically blown themselves up when it comes to WP editing. We see statements, like the one below from User:David Lauder (since removed) where it's assumed that if a user is Irish, then he or she automatically supports Vintagekits, or if they support Vintagekits, they're Irish automatically. This is why I urge ArbCom, even if they determine there's no action that needs to be taken on Vintagekits (confirming his indefblock/ban), to accept this case for user conduct issues across the whole chain of editors. SirFozzie 20:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, i confirm that the IP address is User:Gold_Heart) SirFozzie 23:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Alison

I'm in the process of writing this up. In the meantime, to answer Paul August; all my evidence has been forwarded to Fred Bauder, as that is the extent of my permission here. As Fred is on the ArbCom, can you please check in with him regarding what I've sent? Note: the two edits in question (the rationale to my blocking) have been oversighted since this afternoon - Alison ☺ 03:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Giano

I found this problem when I was involved in the investigation into the validity of Kittybrewster's own family pages, many of which have been deleted. He has never forgiven me. As I have no great political interest in either Ireland or England I have been able to view this problem quite dispassionately. Similar problems are occurring on other Wikis. The problem is complex, two groups - one symbolised by Vintagekits and one by Kittybrewster are at war. Neither are the leader of their group but both are among the most vocal.

Vintagekits (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is Irish and proud of it. Some in his group undoubtedly have republican sympathies. All quite legal and acceptable, if not greatly liked in the old British establishment. Today, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness men who Margaret Thatcher would probably have cheerfully shot are both now entertained at 10 Downing Street where their views are seriously debated. Times change and Wikipedia has to reflect that.

Kittybrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his friends are British and proud of it. Some of his group undoubtedly have establishment sympathies. Indeed they have deliberately identified themselves with the old type establishment, and more importantly the Anglo-Irish aristocracy. The traditional "enemy" of the "downtrodden" Irish.

The problem is that they both want to edit each others pages, both scream POV - was a baronet, or a freedom fighter, murdered or was he killed can result in months of bitter acrimony. Was the "freedom fighter" a "terrorist" or a glorious hero and so it goes on. Anyone caught up in this is labelled a Republican by Kittybrewster's gang. They even made a template to put by "suspect editors" names. The name calling from both sides is appalling. Some admins have tried to put a stop to this, but as they were largely Irish themselves their neutrality was questioned. Ireland is a very divided country. Adding to the confusion both sides use multiple sockpuppets. Kittybrewster's group were found guilty of vote stacking etc. on one of their baronets deletion pages. I don't have the diffs but I fully expect the Irish group have been equally guilty.

Vintagekits is his own worst enemy, quick to anger, he engages his mouth before his brain. This has been seized upon and he has become the chief target for goading. Kittybrewster has indeed been blocked and warned repeatedly to stop goading him - However he and his friends do not. Kittybrewster and his friends advertise a lot of personal information on Wikipedia, real names, schools, backgrounds and locations. They seem more real than some other and more reticent Wikipedians, and it seems that in the heat of the moment blinded by rage Vintagekits lashed out and blurred reality with the anonymity of Wikipedia. In the course of this he made, I am told, some very serious threats indeed. (I have not seen them)

The question is what to do with Vintagekits - is he a bad lad, an evil man or a hot tempered Irishman? I think he is a combination of the first and last and he needs a very severe warning and/or a short ban. Permanently banning him and Kittybrewster will solve nothing as others just like them will arrive. These editors and their friends have to be forced to keep away from each other and certain pages. That is the only long term solution.

I'm aware much of this case is in camera and sub-judice, but I think it is breaking no secrets to say Kittybrewster was not the one to whom the threats were made, but that person at times in his behaviour too has been suspect. The above can be verifiable by diffs found here [51]. Giano 09:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • The more I look into this case, the more strange the undercurrents seem to be. The Arbcom either has to accept this case and make a thorough investigation into exactly what has been going on, or leave it alone - unblock Vintagekits and let the whole bunch fight it out between themselves. The secretiveness of this case is alarming, there can be no harm in making it being public knowledge exactly what VK said, to who he said it and where he said it. The precise details which would identify the RL identity recipient can be with withheld. The fact that Vintagekits is not even allowed to defend himself here is also worrying. My own dealings in the last 12 hours have greatly increased my own suspicions. Giano 08:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Kittybrester's post above "Are SqueakBox, Giano II and Vk himself seeking to become famous for a moment" I think even the Arbcom will unanimously agree I am quite "famous" enough already. So no Kittybrester, you are quite wrong there. Giano 10:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Newyorkbrad

Disputes involving Vintagekits have been brewing for several months. Vintagekits, an Irish editor, appears to have a strong aversion to articles about British nobility and titled commoners, such as baronets. This has brought Vintagekits into conflict with editors on WikiProject:Baronetcies such as Kittybrewster, who I believe self-identifies as a baronet in real life and who has written articles about numerous members of his extended family, some of which have been proposed for deletion on notability and/or sourcing grounds. Some editors had the initial reaction that these articles were being sought out and proposed for deletion on ideological grounds; however, further investigation led by previously uninvolved editors such as Giano and Mackensen, revealed that serious reason did exist for concern about these articles, justifying at least to some degree Vintagekits' position. Harsh language and other user conduct during that dispute was regrettable but that dispute, in and of itself, is probably too stale to be arbitrated.

The particular dispute quieted for awhile but I gather from Vintagekits' talkpage that he has been involved in some other controversies, also generally related to disputes between Irish and British editors. There were some prior blocks and, after discussion, unblocks and several admins including but not limited to Alison and SirFozzie have made strong good-faith attempts to salvage the situation, which regrettably seem to have been unsuccessful.

Most recently, Vintagekits clearly crossed the line of acceptable discourse very seriously in his edits cited above by Rockpocket. It is clear that some administrator action was warranted based on those edits, particularly in view of the conditions of his prior unblocking. There remains the issue of whether an indefinite block, as imposed by Alison, was the appropriate response. Alison has asserted on Vintagekits' talkpage that, in addition to improper comments such as those quoted above, Vintagekits has made very serious threats (in two edits now oversighted) involving another editor's real-life identity and address, mandating a definitive and permanent block. There have also been references to a series of abusive e-mails; it is not clear to me whether Vintagekits has admitted or denied having written these. Other editors on the talkpage have acknowledged that Vintagekits made at least some highly inappropriate edits but have urged that he was, to an extent, provoked into doing so.

On Vintagekits' talkpage, Alison has also stated that she believes that based on his conduct, it would be inappropriate for Vintagekits to be unblocked even for the limited purpose of participating in an arbitration case. My understanding is that Alison has communicated privately with one or more arbitrators concerning the content of the threats. Beyond that, neither I nor probably any other user can intelligently comment here because I have not seen the evidence and it does not seem appropriate to post it here.

The questions with which the arbitrators are presented, then, are (1) should the evidence against Vintagekits be considered privately or on-wiki and how should all interested parties be heard; (2) does the evidence against Vintagekits support an indefinite block or a formal ban; and (3) does this case present an appropriate vehicle to discuss any other issues beyond the narrow one of whether Vintagekits should remain blocked. Newyorkbrad 22:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by One Night In Hackney

This case goes far deeper than the conduct of one editor, the currently indefinitely blocked Vintagekits. While his conduct has at times been deplorable, the many, many breaches of policy by his opponents are plain for all to see. For well over six months there has been a campaign of disruption and POV pushing by a group of British (and assorted other) editors on articles related to The Troubles. Some of the Irish editors are equally to blame, very few people have clean hands in this case. In effect since the end of outright conflict in Northern Ireland, Wikipedia has become the new battleground between those believing the views of the British public are what should be presented as NPOV and Irish republicans wanting their side of the story to be told equally and fairly, or in some cases a biased Irish republican viewpoint.

For my part, my editing has been misinterpreted by many editors. Many consider me a POV pusher biased in favour of the Provisional IRA, when the truth is I'm as English as they come. I have probably contributed as much in terms of sourced content to articles relating to Irish republicanism as any active editor. There are currently two articles under the Irish Republicanism WikiProject that are good articles, and I wrote, re-wrote or sourced 90% of both of them. If my editing was as biased as certain editors claim, they would never have passed GA. One administrator who holds a strong anti-Provisional IRA viewpoint has said privately to me that my editing was totally neutral, and anyone seeking to find much evidence to the contrary will have difficulty in doing so.

I am no longer an active Wikipedia editor, so if anyone wishes to spend their time hunting down evidence to blacken my name it will be an exercise in fulility, and there is ample evidence to refute any claims. However the conflict across articles has intensified since I stopped editing Wikipedia, and something needs to be done to get many editors back on the straight and narrow and improving the encylopedia in constructive ways. For this reason I implore the Arbitration Committee to accept this case to examine the conduct of all involved.. One Night In Hackney303 22:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Sam Blacketer

Earlier this year I was involved in trying to (unofficially) mediate between Vintagekits and some other users over Norman Stronge, Hugh Fraser, 1st Baron Fraser of Allander and divers Baronets. I can't comment on the more recent issues brought up but I did form the view that Vintagekits' tendency to view edits through the prism of the Anglo-Irish conflict was very damaging and made it very difficult for him to function effectively in a neutral encyclopaedia. I also felt he unduly personalised his dispute with Kittybrewster. However, he was able with some guidance to see others' points of view and move on. This case has many of the aspects of an 'appeal against community ban' which the committee takes up if there's a reason for believing the ban may be excessive. Pace Squeakbox, it may be that a wider finding would be of assistance. Sam Blacketer 22:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Scolaire

I have had relatively few dealings with Vintagekits. What communication we had, I found him to be a genial character, but very sensitive and quick to take offence. Reading through many of the debates he was involved in (although in general I did not get involved myself) I have the distinct impression that certain editors knew exactly where his breaking point was, and steered him relentlessly towards it. Maybe the ugliest example was the editor who contributed anonymously as 84.13.156.208 and who tried to provoke Vk even as he was attempting to get himself unblocked. I find the whole section "Champagne" on User talk:Kittybrewster, culminating in this diff very disturbing. At best it is a show of very undignified gloating by four or five editors (and not btw what talk pages are intended for); at worst it looks like a conspiracy. To come down hard on somebody who doesn't know where to draw the line, while those who know how to "play the game" get off scot-free (pun not intended!) would be very unfair. Scolaire 15:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Counter-revolutionary

I have been away for the past few days and have returned to find myself listed as an "interested party". My experience of Vintagekits has left me with the impression that he is a most discourteous and deliberately provocative editor. He has made many comments which, if the parties involved were still alive (such as in the case of Sir Norman Stronge, would have been libelous; such as accusing him of funding terrorism (a wholly false claim). He has also made provocative statements such as this [52]. I know there are many more, which I cannot locate at the moment, the above are just an example of the sort of editor he is. None of us are without fault but VKs seems to go out of his way to cause trouble. That is all I have to say on the matter.--Counter-revolutionary 17:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:David Lauder

It is fascinating to read some of the remarks on this page. I support the comments of User:Rockpocket and User:Counter-revolutionary above. It is laughable to suggest that Vintagekits is just another editor doing good work who has been misread. It is also more than apparent that his overwhelming supporters are Irish Republicans, plainly shown by a glance at their user pages. I have nothing against Irish Republicans (my first delightful girlfiend was from Limerick) but I do not believe that Wikipedia is the correct forum for them to present their anti-British case. Nor do I think it is a forum for editors such as Vintagekits whose user page blatantly displays serious POV prejudices which, when put into operation, must cause instant disruption and grief to Wikipedia. More importantly, if you examine the contributions logs of Vintagekits, you will see that he generally sticks to an Irish Republican agenda. But any editor challenging his view of things on such pages means that Vintagekits will instantly move to articles that editor has created or made substantial contributions to with a view to bullying tactics of a varying nature, right up to AfDs, once he has located a Wikipedia 'guideline' he thinks he can rely upon.

I am really not interested in Irish affairs at all and it is ridiculous to try and sort opponents of Vintagekits into some sort of cabal similar to his. I strayed into 'his arena' of interest maybe once or twice and was penalised accordingly. I then found where he was attacking the contributions of another editor (User:Kittybrewster) under the usual guises and I foolishly entered my feelings on the AfD pages only to bring Vintagekits sneering remarks down on my head, with several of his collegues in tow, likewise. His behaviour towards other users who fail to support him is constant bullying, unpleasantness, and unkindness. He fails all the usual WP tests of civility, good faith, and no personal attacks, direct and indirect, for which has has already had several blocks, one of those being an "indefinite" block which, amazingly, was not. His latest block should be upheld.

Lastly, there is at least one editor above who has had the audacity to state he is "uninvolved" when he has consistantly supported Vintagekits in the past. I think he should at least correct that heading. David Lauder 21:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Recuse. Picaroon (t) 22:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Recuse from any clerk activity in this case. Newyorkbrad 22:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/1/0/2)

  • Reject, no basis is presented which would justify unblocking Vintagekits Fred Bauder 23:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I request that Alison please send all private information regarding this matter to the ArbCom mailing list. Paul August ☎ 03:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept to examine the full situation. Mackensen (talk) 00:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are 30 named parties to the case. Do you want to keep it that broad a case or narrow it down some? FloNight♥♥♥ 11:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:DreamGuy

Initiated by Dicklyon at 16:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
  1. Well documented in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/DreamGuy 2#Evidence_of_trying_and_failing_to_resolve_the_dispute
  2. More recent attempt via Mediation Cabal: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-08-17 Photo editing (closed due to DreamGuy's objection)

Statement by User:Dicklyon

The currently open conduct RFC (Wikipedia:Requests for comment/DreamGuy 2) is the best description of the conduct problem. Through continual incivility, DreamGuy manages to alienate every editor that he comes into the slightest conflict with. He has convinced himself that his position is always right, and therefore the others are just "problem editors", justifying his conduct. His statements indicate that he is in denial that any part of his problem with "problem editors" is due to his conduct.

At the end of the talk page there, he firmly rejects our last attempt at content mediation as well, involving a long-running dispute about the use of the term "photoshopping" for photo editing, which he started on March 9, 2007 by blanking the photoshopping article and redirecting it to Adobe Photoshop. All other editors of those articles have converged on a redirect to a small section in photo editing, but there he insists on removing the referenced content and replacing it with a statement that photoshopping simply means using Adobe Photoshop.

Many others who signed on to the conduct RFC had similar complaints about his involvement in articles they care about. I am willing to stipulate that he was sometimes on the "right" side of disputes, in that a final consensus was reached that agreed pretty much with his position. However, his incivil involvement appears to have always made it harder to get there, not easier. On the photoshopping question, however, he is clearly in a minority of one against a number of editors who have made good faith efforts to understand and study his policy concerns (undue weight, neologism, reliable source, etc.) and his position, and to a mediate and reach a consensus. His participation in such processes seems to be a simple rejection, calling everyone names for disagreeing and going about it all wrong. Few editors have yet found a way to work with him, other than to give in and let him have his way. Numerous complaints, three conduct RFCs, several AN/I complaints, etc. have not led to anything like resolution or progress.

DreamGuy also likes to "ban" people from his talk page, claiming "harassment" when they try to discuss things with him, or when they warn him that they're going to file a complaint, etc. He routinely removes talk comments with no response other than an abusive or dismissive edit summary. His User talk:DreamGuy page states his bad-faith attitude clearly: "Note: If you are here to leave personal attacks, false accusations of vandalism, a long tirade about why your cat photo or article about yourself should be left alone as you and only you wanted, nonsensical rationalizations of why vampires, ancient astronauts, werewolves, "creation science" and so on should be treated as completely real and so forth, do not bother, as I'll either just remove them right away or simply point you to the appropriate Wikipedia policy which you should have read in the first place."

This kind of conduct costs wikipedia tremendously in terms of the time, effort, and good will of good editors who deal with DreamGuy. His mode of interaction needs to be changed or stopped.

What I would like this arbitration case to achieve if accepted?
  1. DreamGuy should as a minimum agree (and be held under penalty of blocking) to stop being incivil, to stop asserting a consensus when he's alone against a majority, to carry on dispute discussions on talk pages (including his own) instead of in edit summaries, and to respond as if other editor's actions are in good faith.
  2. DreamGuy should be compelled to remove the blatant assertion of his own assumptions of bad faith from his user talk page. Hopefully, a genuine assumption of good faith can be found to underlie these conduct changes.
  3. DreamGuy should agree to mediation of the photoshopping/photo editing/Adobe Photoshop dispute, pending finding a mediator who knows nothing of him or his history. With respect to this and other content disputes, he must stop asserting that the mediation process is worse than the deadlock that it is intended to help solve, or that other editors don't respect policies.

Statement by User:DreamGuy

Statement by User:Cool Blue

Incivility has been an ongoing issue with DreamGuy. This conduct has been going on for quite sometime.

I'd like to point out specifically March 9, 2007, where DreamGuy deliberating redirected a page to Adobe Photoshop without any consensus or discussion. Any topic that he finds the least bit undesirable, he takes some kind of extraordinary means to, in someways get rid of it; see here. The issue with Photoshopping has been going on for quite sometime now.

I've did a little bit of mediation work with the Mediation Cabal, and was looking for a case to mediate at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases when I accepted a case at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-08-17 Photo editing. I have had negative interactions with DreamGuy in the past, but could not recall any details, and did not recall the negative interactions until DreamGuy objected, so I accepted the case anyways. I had started doing some preliminary work with two other editors, and reviewed an alternative version, when I received a message from DreamGuy stating he objected to me as mediator, and the Mediation Cabal system alike. Normally, that's how the process works, but he came forward, without any recent, previous confrontation here. I'd like to point out one passage "The ide that you can go to my talk page, ask if I want to be a party, and if not you'll remove my name and make a decision anyway is a complete misrepresentation of how mediation is supposed to work. As you seem more interested in forging ahead to a solution with or without my input, I question your ability (or perhaps willingness) to act as a fair and uninvolved mediator here. You should remove yourself as a mediator, as you cannot go forward without this being completely a sham process. Considering that it's also been clear from the start that I think "Mediation Cabal" protocols (when they are actually followed, which you did not do) are contrary to the standard rules of Wikipedia (one individual person with no background shows up and tries to determine consensus on his own? that's nonsense), the people involved *know* this and the mediation attempt was clearly made in bad faith. But, hey, thanks to your screw up in not following the mediation rules, you've only gone to prove my point on why I don't trust it." It's only a myth that the mediator needs to ask all parties before-hand, as proved here. When I explained this to DreamGuy he responded "If you intend to try to mediate in the future, you should read up on the basics of mediation. "Mediation is purely voluntary. All interested parties must be willing to accept mediation. If any interested party does not accept mediation, we cannot help." is just a starter. The mediation process here is flawed and full of people who have no business pretending to be mediators, but at least most of them read the rules before jumping in." I am aware of that, and when DreamGuy didn't want to participate I closed the case, following all guidelines of the Mediation Cabal.

As per Dicklyon above, I also feel that the message on his talkpage is unnecessary.

His attitude needs to change. Period.

Statement by ElC

This looks rather one-sided, both on the part of the initiator (whom I agree with on the content front, incidentally) as well as from an unofficial mediator who, by his or her own words, may not have been entirely objective and might have accepted a case prematurely. This is a good time as any for me to reiterate my unease of the Mediation Cabal (I note that an MC member, Ideogram, who recently launched and quickly withdrew a prior RfAr on DreamGuy, has recently been placed on a one year community ban); I always prefer formal mediation. As the admin chiefly monitoring the RfC, I've been struggling to keep it from being disrupted by editors mostly hostile to DreamGuy (examples: [54] [55]) and although, DG was not entirely satisfied with me, either, I must say that if this treatment is the norm for him, I rather understand his talk page disclaimer (I don't approve of it, but it isn't that different than several others I know). Let me go beyond photoshopping, then, and discuss the conduct RfC.

As mentioned elsewhere, although the certifiers did not directly participate in disrupting this request for comment attempt, I do not feel they did enough (leaving it pretty much all up to me) to combat this negative atmosphere; moreover, they often seemed to argue that the focus should be placed exclusively on DreamGuy (I made it clear that, on Wikipedia, everyone's conduct is subject to review, at any time; there's no license for people to be uncivil simply because they are charging "reckless incivility" against the subject of an RfC). Conduct RfCs are not free-for-alls.

Members of the Committee, I've been struggling for long now to keep conduct RfCs from degenerating into indictment-like pages, where little if any prior or ongoing dispute resolution efforts are undertaken and illustrated (you may have only seen me act in high-profile RfCs, such as the Kelly Martin ones, and so on, but my work on that front has been extensive). This RfC was no exception. It started with editors violating the certification rules, continued through threaded discussions and top-page notices on the project page, and kept going down hill from there. Only thorough refractoring on my part kept the project page comprehensible and free from revert warring, but even this wasn't enough as unproductive discussion was simply diverted, mostly but no means entirely, to the RfC's talk page, where it appeared to me that several editors were already set on treating it as a step toward arbitration, arguably to impose punitive measures on DG, rather than a genuine dispute resolution attempt.

In this extension, I note the sheer volume of DreamGuy RfCs and RfArs; one of the former, which I recently deleted was created by-now two banned users who failed to undertake any efforts at dispute resolution (and yet, it was allowed to stay, with people "commenting," for years). This RfC wasn't quite as bad in some ways, but was worse in others. As I told Daniel Case (the author of the second diff I cited; and no, I do not retract my astonishment upon learning that he as an admin): "If this is the sort of expression that DG is ordinarily subjected to, that would work explain many things." Someone on the RfC has compared DreamGuy's with RickK's treatment, a comparison which, I, as someone who on several occasions personally spoken with Rick on what made him leave the English Wiki, is an apt one. El_C 19:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TexasAndroid

It was stated a number of times, in a number of ways, at the RFC, that incivility against DreamGuy does not justify DreamGuy being incivil back. And I fully agree with this: DreamGuy's incivility is not justifiable in any way by the actions of others, and should be fully subject to review and possibly sanction by this RFAr process.

But that said, it really is a two way street. If the hands of those that bring this RFAr, or who piled on DreamGuy at the RFC, are not clean in the matter, then others should be just as subject to the review and sanction by the RFAr process. So, assuming that this case is accepted, while I fully expect to see DreamGuy's actions to be scrutinized, I would hope that the actions of those that have been incivil towards DreamGuy are given just as close of a scrutiny as DreamGuy's own actions. There certainly appear to be unclean hands on both sides of this one. - TexasAndroid 20:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thespian

It is said that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. People will, over the next little while, repeat over and over that while people have violated WP:CIVIL towards Dreamguy, of course they, themselves, were not innocent. This will be used both in his defense, and as an argument against him (and you will see, in the investigation of this, a number of people who start out civil, if contentious, and wind up as rude as Dreamguy is).

I first encountered Dreamguy on Otherkin and Therianthropy. Now, please note, I'm not a terribly unbiased editor; you'll find I once commented that The current self-identifying therians don't want to be mistaken for otherkin because, well, a lot of people think that otherkin are nuts. But to be honest, if someone says to me, "My soul is actually that of a panther," I'm going to think the same (therians never seem to realize that their soul is that of a boll weevil).[56] However, I have friends who are furries and Otherkin, I'm involved in fandom, and I know that a moderate voice could be used between the people who want to treat it as completely real and the people who want to treat it as a psychosis. Indeed, I said as much about the articles being edited by self-defined therianthropes[57], but that also applies to anyone who has an extreme view on the subject.

Eventually, there was an issue with external linking to the WikiFur project at Wikia. I was not severely attached to either side; I was more pro towards allowing the link, because things in the softer sciences, humanities, etc., are quite simply not as rigorously citable, and I do feel that if people are looking up an obscure term like therianthropy, there's a very good chance they encountered it, at this time, through the Therian or Otherkin communities. The link is, in my opinion, useful and relevant to the audience for that page. But I wasn't going to go to a throwdown WP:OWN issue over it. The link was added, removed, discussed briefly on the talk page, and readded, and it was solid. And then Dreamguy removed the entire section[58] after returning to the page after a little over eight months away (12 Oct 2006[59] - 28 May 2007[60]). No one really knew who he was, he just showed up, ignored the varied consensus that people on the page had been working for on a tricky subject, and started making up rules, such as a declaration that 'competing wikis absolutely DO NOT meet WP:EL guidelines.' [61] He was asked to come to the talk page where other discussion of the links had been had, and discuss his change but he instead decided that his non-existant rule was all he needed, and talk was irrelevant[62] (please note that regardless of whether Dreamguy believed Mermaid was blind reverting, Mermaid had been consistantly around making an edit or two every month on the page while Dreamguy wasn't - this wasn't someone who was just wikistalking him, though Dreamguy claims otherwise, and perhaps they have elsewhere. It was certainly not the case here). Bryan Derksen pointed out that this wasn't just Mermaid from the Baltic Sea, and attempted to get Dreamguy to speak with other editors on the project.[63]

I can continue outlining this bakklewheep, but the page history is easily browsed at this point.

Now, I present you with this: first thing I ever said to Dreamguy. I think, all told, it was moderate and polite. I did say I felt he sounded aggressive (but if you read up...well). He never responded to me. Over the next couple of days, he kept firing off pretty randomly at people. Now, please note, I genuinely believed that he was editing in Good Faith, even if his random attacks and use of edit summaries to editorialize on other editors were stretching it - I believed that Dreamguy's editing was IGF, even as his meta-behaviour was becoming unacceptable. After a couple days of several editors being in consensus that all the EL links that Dreamguy had removed were good removals, except for WikiFur, and him abusing anyone who reinserted it, I filed a MedCab on Therianthropy (not, please note, on Dreamguy, but instead a way to simply get someone completely random to come in and straighten out the issues). I was a newish experienced editor at the time (nearing 1000 edits), and I've realized since that an RfC would have been a better option. That, however, didn't seem to matter. Though the mediation was intended for the whole page, and for all editors (and I was only slightly biased by my inclusionist tendencies to want to leave resources available, and not because I was passionately wanting the link to stay), Dreamguy decided that because the argument did mention it was 'a number of other editors, including myself, Bryan Derksen and more' and 'Dreamguy' as the sides, it was actually Mediation against him. He refused the mediation, and closed the case by himself. You can see it here.[64]

Dreamguy often refers to any attempt to speak with him by someone who disagrees with him as harassment. At one point, he referred to the recent RfC about him as such. I asked him how people were expected to have civil conversations with him considering his banninations from his talk page, his abuse in edit summaries, his attacks on people who try to disagree with him on talk pages.[65] He never responded to me. When the subject of this Arbitration came up, I noted that I still believe that he's editing in good faith, but that when doing something for the first time (the MedCab), he attacked me and indeed I felt he gamed the system to take advantage of a new editor and avoid the process.[66] He never replied. I asked at one point what was going on, because he doesn't seem to be enjoying Wikipedia these days; indeed, he seems to be holding on tenaciously though it's making him bitter and angry, and discussed the fact that Dreamguy just plain seems to dislike a lot of the people that he works with on Wikipedia, which is problematic because while you don't need to befriend them all, you do need to be able to collaborate with them.[67] He never responded. Indeed, my 'squeaky wheel' metaphor back there refers to this -- I often feel like the only way you can even get Dreamguy's attention these days is agreeing with him or sinking to his level of incivility - my comments, which were low key even when I was angry, simply don't hit his radar.

Despite the fact that Dreamguy abused me a fair bit with his napalm-like accusations at WP:EL that everyone who disagrees with him were 'pro-furry' and more, I've stayed fairly clearheaded on this, as Wikipedia is enjoyable and stimulating, but Not the Most Important Thing In The World. However, I have admitted on WP:AN/I that I no longer edit pages that I see Dreamguy has been editing, simply because the chances of being dragged into fights as he lays down edicts seems to escalate on any page he works on. It would be pleasant to add to several pages he works on, but it's just simply not worth it to have to deal with the anger and incivility that comes when you try and do anything he disagrees with. --Thespian 06:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ghirla

It looks like a certain clique of editors seeks to impose punitive measures on DG, no matter what, although their own behaviour merits closer examination. I don't think any of the people casting stones at DreamGuy would do any better if they found themselves hounded to an even remotely similar degree. There have been no good-faith attempts at dispute resolution, rather a sustained campaign to have their opponent chastised for real or imaginary offenses. This is not what dispute resolution is about. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Wizardman

There is, of course, two sides to this story. Those who find DreamGuy incredibly destructive and hurtful to the wikimedia community, and those who feel that DreamGuy, though uncivil, has been given a very bum deal. While I agree more with the former, (DreamGuy's lack of RfC support says I may be in the majority there) I feel that the latter is skewing the situation a bit, and that it's not about him retaliating so much as him being a problem here. Of course ArbCom has to accept this case, it's about time this guy is at least looked at by ArbCom. To say that there have been no good-faith attempts as resolution is flat out wrong, there was just an RfC that was clsoed only when both sides really started attacking each other. That just means we need to bring this here even more. I note that even the people on his side note that he's been abusive and incivil, so the sooner this is accepted and taken care of, the better Wizardman 15:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alucard (Dr.)

There is a history of accusations that have been thrown around on all sides about lack of civility, POV editing, wiki-stalking, sockpuppetry, questioning motives/intent, edit warring and the like, to the point where certain articles are now a hostile editing environment, which I see as counter to the spirit of Wikipedia. Various remedial procedures have been attempted and have failed. Discussions about content issues are tinged with anger. Whether DreamGuy or the various people that contributed to the RfC are found to be at fault is, as far as I am concerned, academic at this point - this needs to stop, for the good of the encyclopedia. According to my understanding of the dispute resolution process, I see this as the logical next step, and am pleased that the scope is to look at everyone involved, rather than just one person. I encourage this case to be opened. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 19:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also note similar-style edit-warring with accusations is going on in the article Adobe Photoshop. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by clpo13

While it is true that DreamGuy is often a good editor, his attitude when he comes into conflict with other editors is really quite a problem. This is only natural when one does anti-vandalism and anti-spam work, as DreamGuy does; however, when an editor objects to his/her edits being called spam or vandalism, DreamGuy does not appear to stop and take their complaints into account. He merely brushes them off and goes on his way, even going so far as to remove their comments to his talk page as "harassment." Now, I will not deny that certain editors (myself included) involved the various dispute resolution processes are guilty of the very things DreamGuy is accused of. The case may very well be one of the pot (or pots) calling the kettle black. But the fact still remains that both the pot and the kettle are black, meaning that there still exists a problem that needs to be investigated. If that means repercussions for editors other than DreamGuy, than so be it. As Alucard said, a hostile editing environment is completely against what Wikipedia is about, and extreme attitude by even a single editor (even if there are some understandable reasons for it) doesn't help things at all. --clpo13(talk) 08:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bryan Derksen

I'm not a party to the current Photoshopping dispute but I did participate in the RfC (I was directed to it by an editor who had referenced a mailing list posting of mine in it and I felt I should clarify what I'd said there) and have had occasional disputes with DreamGuy in the past. I was a significant participant in the Therianthropy external link dispute described by Thespian, for example. See Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/DreamGuy 2#Procedure question (about halfway down the section, a text search for the string "my past interactions" should jump to the correct spot) for brief descriptions of how DreamGuy and myself each perceived a major event in the incident, along with direct links to the source material so one can judge it for one's self.

DreamGuy's taken on a number of unenviable tasks in tidying up articles that tend to draw "crankish" or otherwise difficult contributors, and over the years has clashed with a lot of editors that probably needed to be clashed with. However, in my opinion he's developed the attitude that everyone who disagrees with him is someone that needs to be clashed with. I pride myself on being good at discussion but in my past encounters with DreamGuy I've found that there seems to be no way to disagree or compromise with him in a civil manner. He's very quick to make assumptions of bad faith on the part of other editors and is completely confident of his own position's correctness in the face of widespread disagreement, even going so far as to refuse to acknowledge that there is disagreement to begin with. It's unfortunate that it's come to arbitration but I think his bad behavior is causing more problems than his good editing makes up for and there seems to be no other way to address it.

Statement by mikaul

Background: my limited interaction with DreamGuy has concerned the troubled photo editing article, in which I started out broadly supporting his objections over content. I have been drawn into this wider misconduct issue as it seems I'll be unable to progress the article until it's resolved. I've found constructive dialog with him has gone from difficult to impossible, despite a number of significant early compromises which have cut down the section in question to comply with DreamGuy's expressed main objections (WP:NEOLOGISM, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS) There is still no indication that he is in any way happy with the proposed amended version. My last request that he (specifically) review this [68], plus a direct request on his talk page, have been ignored. This isn't new or surprising re this editor and seems to me to be very much in line with his wholly exclusionist editing style; looking at his contribs, he concerns himself almost entirely with removal of controversial content, often regardless of the weight of opinion against such removal, to the extent that partial inclusion of said content is not a negotiable solution, or at least this has been the case at photo editing. I have no problem with exclusionist editing generally, if there is a willingness to accept a compromise position in the face of clear opposition. DreamGuy has shown no such willingness, and the photo editing page is paralyzed as a result.

Desires: I would hope this RFAr softens his hardline exclusionism and elicits a modicum of respect for the opinions of fellow editors, in particular that AGF become more prominent in his interaction with them. I second calls to reopen mediation on the photoshopping issue: refusal to accept this (overseen by a neutral, informed 3rd party) is surely unacceptable.

Concerns: I'm concerned, primarily, that without mediation, the article remains in jeopardy, should the lock be removed. A secondary concern is that this process (RFC, MEDCAB, and now RFAR) has created an atmosphere of persecution which has in turn provoked an astonishing display of rhetoric in his defence which (from where I'm sitting) swings from genuine grievance to paranoid delusion and is in danger of seriously misrepresenting the intent of other editors (vis absurd claims that editors are "stalking", "grouping together" or "ganging up" against him re. photo editing) This clever but frankly Machiavellian manoeuvring has attracted some well-meaning support from editors who appear to have taken his protestations largely at face value. Sure, there is impatience and intolerance creeping in, but it's more due to exasperation [69] than bloody-mindedness. Please, read carefully between the lines here, as fantastical claims of cloak-and-daggers are little more than smoke-and-mirrors. Far from rabid persecution, I'm convinced that the only real desire here is that people be allowed to edit in peace. Amen.mikaultalk 09:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Noted that there are now 4 votes to accept this case. Absent further developments, should open Monday night or Tuesday morning. Newyorkbrad 03:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (4/0/0/0)

Requests for clarification

Place requests for clarification on matters related to the Arbitration process in this section. Place new requests at the top.

Zen-master

The year-long ban on Zen-master (talk · contribs) has recently expired. IIRC, one of the actions that resulted in his ban was his perennial harping (and creating multiple Policy Proposals) against using the term "conspiracy theory" in articles. It took him less than a week to drop back into his old behavior, as evidenced on this "new" proposal (now userfied), canvassing, spamming edit warring, and pointless debate. Frankly I find it hard to find any edits in his contribs log that do not relate to his POV pushing. I suggest that his presence is not only a net negative, but an overall negative to the project. >Radiant< 13:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk note: The prior decision involving this user is at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zen-master. Newyorkbrad 16:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some users are trying to ban me because of what I discuss on discussion pages, is that really a bannable offense? Resubmitting a proposal after 2 years have elapsed is perfectly acceptable under Wikipedia policies as far as I know. Also note some editors are trying to ban me because I discovered that the race and intelligence article utilizes a racism inducing method of presentation, see the scientific racism article. If you think the phrase "conspriacy theory" is neutral feel free to disagree with me, but please don't try to ban me just because I don't think it's neutral. zen master T 16:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the one-year ban was converted into an indefinite block on August 27, 2006 by user:Samuel Blanning on account of "evasion via sockpuppetry indicates no inclination to serve ban." See Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Zen-master. On August 8, 2007 user:Zscout370 unblocked the account, "giving him another chance". In a related action, this user's account on Wiktionary was blocked due to POV pushing in the "conspiracy theory" entry.[70] Among other things he'd been using the Wiktionary definition, that he'd written, to support his assertions about its use on Wikipedia. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I was blocked on wiktionary allegedly for my behavior on Wikipedia according to the admin that blocked me on Wiktionary, Connel MacKenzie, who has yet to list and explain how any wiktionary edits are indefinitely blockable offenses. I'd also like someone to explain how any of my Wikipedia edits, especially me recent edits, could be considered blockable offenses? Why aren't any users complaining about me linking to any of my edits? Answer: because none violate policy. Just because a coordinated group of users don't like my User:Zen-master/Conspiracy theory title neutrality proposal doesn't mean you should let them block me over it. zen master T 19:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually you were blocked for sending a rude email to Colin (a very senior admin over there)Blueboar 20:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true, my email to his wiktionary account had the same tone as my post to his Wikipedia discussion page here. And I only emailed him after he had already blocked me indefinitely. I've pasted below my posts to his Wikipedia discussion page:
Why did you block my Wiktionary account?
Hello Connel MacKenzie, please list and explain here what wiktionary edits for "Hollow are the Ori" are in any way blockable offenses? Why did you make the block indefinite?
If there are any other wiktionary.com admins reading this page please look into this case. zen master T 21:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Please stop spreading falsehoods that my email to you regarding your unjustified block of my wiktionary account had a bad tone. The tone of my email to you was the same as my tone is here. I repeat my request for you to list and explain here how any of my wiktionary edits are indefinitely blockable offenses? zen master T 23:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Why aren't any of the editors complaining against me listing any recent Wikipedia edits of mine that could be considered blockable offenses? Why is there a group of coordinated users conspiring against me and my proposals? I repeat my request for someone to list and explain how any of my Wikipedia edits, especially recent ones, are blockable offenses? Recently all I've been doing is pretty much discussion on discussion pages, how is that a blockable offense? zen master T 20:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Radiant's original message links to specific problems with your edits. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
None of those edits list anything that violates policy, normal wikipedia edits. And please link to specific edits rather than just article history. And how is debate on a proposal page a blockable offense? It's a very sad state of affairs if someone can be blocked for alleging that a phrase used in article titles isn't neutral. Feel free to disagree with me but don't block me because we disagree. zen master T 20:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disrupting Wikipedia is a legitimate cause for a block. Your edit warring at 9/11 Truth Movement was not productive, and may have violated WP:3RR, or at least come very close to doing so. You've been blocked ten times for 3RR violations previously. You edit-warred before your ban and you don't seem to have changed your behavior. Spamming and canvassing are also disruptive. Pointless debate is not productive either. Can you explain why you asked for your block to be overturned and what productive edits you've made since your return? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The burden of proof is on you to try to make a case for why I should be blocked, not the other way around. zen master T 21:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zen-master's behavior is the same as it was before his ban: Edit-warring, and trying to ban the phrase "conspiracy theory" from article titles. Zscout370 unblocked to give him another chance, and Zen-master has chosen not to take it. Tom Harrison Talk 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was wrongfully banned the first time around and it looks like I will be wrongfully banned again. I followed wikipedia policy in making my proposal that the phrase "conspiracy theory" is not neutral enough for use in article titles, it's a very sad state of affairs if making an unpopular proposal can get someone banned. zen master T 21:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about agreeing to stay away from any page (in any namespace) dealing with conspiracy theories? I don't think a complete ban would be necessary if these pages were voluntarily avoided. Chaz Beckett 02:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about discussion pages? I actually prefer to have the entire arbitration committee fully review this case and re-open the original case since it was and is wrong. zen master T 02:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, discussion pages seem to be a big part of the problem. I personally don't believe you're going to accomplish much by attempting to re-open the case, but it's your choice on how to proceed. Chaz Beckett 02:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So someone can be banned for discussion on discussion pages? This is ludicrous. The principle of neutral presentation should prevent the use of language such as "conspiracy theory" that is ambiguous, discrediting and deceiving at a subtle unconscious level. No one has made a case as to how any specific recent edits of mine are blockable offenses. zen master T 02:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I may cite Kosebamse's law, "People of strong opinion are not banned or blocked for promoting strong opinions. Eventually, they are banned or blocked for violating social standards in the attempt to defend their views." >Radiant< 07:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying there is a social standard against discussion on discussion pages? That is ridiculous. Just because you "strongly disagree" with my User:Zen-master/Conspiracy theory title neutrality proposal doesn't mean that's a blockable offense. zen master T 14:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[71] was my reasoning for unblocking the account. Sorry if I cannot provide more details, since I don't keep IRC logs. Whatever actions the ArbCom or other decisions make, I will not oppose them. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When is the full arbitration committee going to start reviewing this case and re-open the original arbitration case? zen master T 14:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have indefinitely (re)blocked Zen-master. Tom Harrison Talk 14:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And honestly, unless he promises to reform, I don't see any reason to overturn that at any point in the future. Some users (unfortunately) are lost causes. I think he is one of them. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 06:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personal Attacks

Many arbitration cases have endorsed the principle that making personal attacks on Wikipedia is not acceptable. Is the introduction of off-wiki statements largely unrelated to Wikipedia or its editors at a request for adminship for the apparent purpose of disparaging the candidate's moral character, as occurred at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Crockspot#Q15, considered to be a personal attack? If so, what remedies, if any, are available when it is reasonably believed that a request for adminship failed as a direct result of the presentation of such personal attacks therein, and off-wiki canvassing for oppose votes containing repetitions of such personal attacks? John254 00:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Bmedley Sutter, there is information on Wikipedia Review strongly suggestive that he received that negative information from the banned user Fairness and Accuracy for All. I have already blocked and warned Bmedley Sutter for another post that was a proxy edit for FAAFA and for taunting Crockspot. I did not know at the time about the RfA issue. If Bmedley Sutter continues to post content at the request of FAAFA he can be banned for a year under the prior case, and I will also extend FAAFA's block, which I forgot to do before. Any Admin who wants to issue a longer block or ban against Bmedley can do so; if no other admin unblocks, it becomes a community ban unless he appeals.
Regarding the RfA, contact the bureaucrats and ask them to reconsider, pointing out that WR was used to canvass against it. I do not believe it is within ArbCom's jurisdiction to overturn a closed RfA and declare a winner, you'll have to talk to the bureaucrats. Thatcher131 00:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am grateful that the candidate's comments were brought to light, and apart from whatever offenses Bmedley Sutter has committed, I thank him for linking to them. Editors' off-wiki behavior is often used when evaluating their conduct, and I see no reason why simply pointing out what the candidate has said can be construed as a personal attack. The only reason this is being suggested is because the candidate's statements were so vile. After the off-wiki comments were brought to light, the community consensus rapidly turned (see graph at right) and I would be appalled if a bureaucrat decided to ignore this obvious will of the community. ←BenB4 03:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. If there is serious reason to question a candidate's moral character, we should be thanking the people who introduce such evidence. -Amarkov moo! 04:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Would a more succinct expression be "Any stick will do to beat a dog?" Tom Harrison Talk 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A more succinct expression unfortunately is that the community, upon learning that the user in question had used racist and homophobic epithets, decided that the user in question was not fit for a position of leadership on the website. The RFA more than anything is a statement for better or worse on what the current users of this website consider to be acceptable social behavior by potential administrators. It not within ArbCom's purview nor of any Steward or Beurocrat to supercede the decision of the userbase in a matter like this. Having "conservative" administrators, or as you put it on the RFA talk page, (paraphrasing) "not promoting someone to admin because they don't share your social justice is a problem" isn't in fact a problem. If the community doesn't trust a user, so be it. They don't need to be an admin.
As for whether Crockspot's inappropriate behavior on the Conservative Underground was admissible evidence for RFA, why not? Are not such things admissible evidence for matters such as RFAR? 88.73.104.70 18:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, they're not. ArbCom does not consider off-wiki behavior unless it relates directly to disruptive behavior on-wiki. Someone who has a blog attacking X will not be sanctioned here if their behavior here is generally good. Someone who runs a web site attacking X who edit wars and is uncivil with respect to X-related articles is likely to be sanctioned, but would be anyway based on behavior. RfA voters can have their own standards, of course, but that has generally been ArbCom's position. Thatcher131 19:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but there's also a difference in what's being judged; Arbcom's charter is to review abuse cases or conflicts on-wiki. Requests for Adminship is looking at whether we (the community) trust user X with the mop and a few potentially moderately dangerous permissions bits. Someone who's behaved well on-wiki but In Real Life has deeply held fringe opinions or beliefs which most may find offensive or troubling may not be someone we want to mop. Past good on-wiki behavior by someone with past bad off-wiki behavior is still potentially a real problem.
There's a legitimate serious policy problem here, a collision between on-wiki user privacy standards (including encouraged use of pseudonyms, etc) and the rest of the world. I find myself troubled by the implications in both directions. And glad again that I don't bother to hide my identity here at all (not that this helps resolve the policy question raised...). Georgewilliamherbert 19:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While I do not support posting on a banned users behalf, the question of if an admin is racist or homophobic is in fact directly linked to if they can be trusted to be impartial. While I do not particularly approve of the source, the information was obviously seen as valuable to those who were "support" and changed to "oppose." --SevenOfDiamonds 04:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So when the RfA fails and Bmedley posts "Crockspots, this is a message from an "old friend". He says: (quote) " PWNED ! LOL ! REMEMBER ANDY ! " " to Crockspot's talk page, that's ok too? Thatcher131 11:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure why this is under my post, as I was addressing the issue of the RfA and the contents of a racist nature posted there, admittedly by Crockspot on the CU forum. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no, acting in an obnoxious, gloating manner rubbing somebody's defeat in their face is not a good idea regardless of the merits or demerits of either side in the controversy. This is entirely independent of the issue of what facts ought to be brought up during the debate itself, however. *Dan T.* 18:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the question is, what would have happened if the question had been added by a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of FAAFA. Obvious indef block based on using sockpuppets to evade his ArbCom-imposed one-year ban. But instead he fed the information to another editor (proxy editor or meat puppet) who posted it. What should happen to the proxy editor? Thatcher131 19:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
More worrysome and general problem: What do we do when a well known admin or longtime user in good standing comes across off-wiki information of equal import to a pending Request for Adminship, and posts it in a more polite manner to the RFA page?
It's easy to say "This was FAAFA using a proxy, just deal with that", but the policy issue of the information itself... yuck. Georgewilliamherbert 19:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have written Wikipedia:Make personal attacks at requests for adminship as a satirical critique of the present trend of making personal attacks against RFA candidates. John254 11:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The pseudoscience category precedent

The pseudoscience RFAr contained some rulings related to the use of Category:Pseudoscience (specifically, principles 15, 16, and 17) that are being used in the arguments in a CFD for Category:Denialism. There are obvious similarities between denialism and pseudoscience, e.g. both present arguments that run contrary to what is widely accepted. However denialism is arguably a more strongly pejorative term and is less well-defined (to the extent that no one has identified any dictionary that defines it). While Timecube may serve as "obvious pseudoscience" deciding what is "obvious denialism" (aside from say Holocaust denial) would be difficult and there isn't exactly a community of experts to turn to for deciding what is or isn't denialism.

Given that a substantial fraction of the argument at this CFD is based on drawing parallels to Category:Pseudoscience, I think it might be helpful if one or more of you would express an opinion on whether or not you find those parallels compelling in this instance. Dragons flight 22:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming of User:COFS

As per the proposed remedies on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS, the user has requested renaming prior to the completion of the case. Do you want us to do it now or hold off until the case is closed, or case closed and any ban finished? Secretlondon 19:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer to see it done now rather than waiting. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree. Nothing gained by waiting.
James F. (talk) 15:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Paranormal Clarification on the use of qualifiers as discussed in various holdings

Five arbitrators voted to take on the Paranormal case; the two who stated their reason for taking the case indicated it was for "conduct issues". Of the 29 principles, findings of fact, and remedies that passed, most did deal with conduct issues; however, an important minority dealt with some of the content that has been at the core of the protracted disputes about paranormal-related articles. I apologize for the length of the following explanation of what I see as the core content paradox within the ArbCom holdings, but I have used examples in order to, I hope, make the situation as clear as possible:

The Wikipedia article on psychic raises issues with the recently closed Paranormal ArbCom. Finding of Fact #5, "Cultural artifacts", states: ""Psychic" or "clairvoyant" and similar terms are cultural artifacts, not people or things which necessarily exist. A psychic may not have psychic abilities, nor does use of the term imply that such abilities exist." Principle #6.2 states, in part, "Language in the introduction of an article may serve to frame the subject thus defining the epistemological status. Examples include ... "paranormal", "psychic" ... or "parapsychological researcher". ... "Purported psychic" or "self-described psychic" adds nothing."

Lemma 1 the Arbitration Committee sees the label "psychic" as a cultural artifact. Saying that Jeane Dixon is a psychic does not imply that she has psychic abilities or powers, or even that such abilities or powers exist. This is true to such an extent that clarification, such as "Jeane Dixon is a self-described psychic", is disallowed.

In reading the article on psychic, however, I became confused and concerned. The psychic article's lede itself states that psychic denotes paranormal extra-sensory abilities that are inexplicable by "known natural laws". This doesn't seem like a typical cultural artifact, in that this statement implies that there may exist some unknown natural law to explain it (i.e., the description invokes science, not culture). However, several sentences later we learn that the existence of this ability is highly contested. Does this resolve the situation?

No. While this skepticism helps a reader understand that psychic abilities may or may not be real, it still leaves the reader with the impression that "psychic" means "someone with scientifically inexplicable powers" - it's just that now we recognize that such people may not exist. That is, thus far, the word "psychic" has always been used to mean "someone with paranormal powers". The infobox on the right side of the page is even more explicit: "Definition: An ability or phenomona said to originate from the brain, but to transcend its confines. Primarily in relation to Psi" (see the box on the righthand side of the article).

Lemma 2: So what is a psychic? The article repeatedly indicates that a defining feature of a psychic is "an ability". There is no ambiguity. It does not say that psychics have an apparent ability. It does not say that psychics may or may not have abilities. It says that a psychic has these abilities.

Imagine that instead of psychic we were talking about a rare device, the PerpetualMotionMachine (psychic). An article states that the PerpetualMotionMachine is an infinite (paranormal) power-output device (ability). The article also has an infobox that defines PerpetualMotionMachine as "A device or product that originates from the Midwest and is capable of infinite power-output." At this point, it's pretty clear that a crucial quality of any PerpetualMotionMachine is that it is an infinite power-output device. Then, I get to the sentence, "the possibility of infinite power-output is highly contested." Now, I still believe that PerpetualMotionMachines are infinite power-output devices, but now I recognize that the term "PerpetualMotionMachine" may have no real-world referent. I now understand that there may not be even one single PerpetualMotionMachine, but if there were one, a defining quality of it would be that it could output infinite power.

Likewise with the paranormal article. It asserts that psychic powers are paranormal abilities, inexplicable by known natural laws. It also tells me that there may not actually be any psychic abilities in the real world. However, from the definitions, I still gather that if there are psychic abilities in the real world, then they cannot be explained by known natural laws. The phrasing here does not strike me as a simple cultural artifact. Just reading the sentence, I am inclined to think that scientists of various disciplines must have looked into this and decided that known natural laws cannot explain the results.

This is in contrast to the holdings of the Arbitration Committee, which found that the term psychic is just a cultural artifact. The Committee held that "psychic" may not imply that the "a psychic" actually has scientifically inexplicable abilities. Therefore, even if a psychic does exist in the real world, they may not have psychic powers. ArbCom: "Psychic means someone who has, or claims to have, these powers. These powers may not exist, but the term still refers to real people." Article: "Psychic means someone who has these powers. These powers may not exist, and in that case the term has no real-world referent."

Lemma 3: The ArbCom's operative understanding of psychic differs in a subtle but crucial way from the psychic article. Actual paranormal powers are an intrinsic quality of a psychic according to the psychic article (although the existence these powers is contested), whereas paranormal powers are not intrinsic to the ArbCom's understanding of psychic (so even if these powers don't actually exist, there still may exist psychics).

A comment was made on the psychic talk page that I think exemplifies the potential for confusion: "When we call a person a psychic we convey a constellation of meanings, all or only some of which may apply. We might be saying the person has psychic powers, performs on stage as a psychic, makes their living doing readings, fraudulently bilks people out of money by claiming paranormal abilities etc. The word has "a" meaning which is multifaceted and contradictory, and all notable ones should be contained somewhere in the psychic article. One part of the meaning of "psychic" is that a person has powers. Another part is that the person may be self-deluded or a fraud. Another is that the person may be an entertainer, comforter, psychologist..... All of these things, or any one of them, may be conveyed by use of the term psychic. It is largely up to the reader to decide which is appropriate."[72] Such a multifarious term could reasonably, from time to time, be misunderstood.

For consideration: Due to subtly different interpretations, there exist diverse understandings of the word psychic which persist, even within Wikipedia. Judicious, appropriate, and infrequent qualification of "psychic", "paranormal", and similar terms should be allowed when such qualifications are contributory to the clarity and meaning of the epistemological status of a subject. This is especially true given the content of the psychic article. This is suggestion is closely in line with Principle #6.1, and Findings of Fact #6, #8, #9, but somewhat at odds with Principle #6.2 and Finding of Fact #12.

Thank you, Antelan talk 08:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heaven, Soul, and a whole host of other terms that refer to something that may or may not exist do not bother saying that it is "claimed" to exist. Only terms that show up on a skeptical watchlists do. It's an issue on Energy (spirituality) but not on obscure terms that don't make it to the list like Prana. Psychic is a cultural artifact because everyone in the world already has an opinion on whether or not psychics are real, or totally bogus. Wikipedia does not have to inform them that psychics may not exist. They are quite aware of it already. No one will realistically read a technical definition at Wikipedia of psychic that says it refers to "supernatural forces, events, or powers" and walk away thinking "Holy cow, Wikipedia says psychics are real!" It's not even plausible. They have already formed their own opinion. All the other encyclopedias, dictionaries, etc. that don't bother saying that it may not exist don't waste the reader's time, or insults their intelligence, by pointing it out. If nothing else, it fails to meet the notability standard. --Nealparr (talk to me) 09:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


When we call a person a psychic we convey a constellation of meanings, all or only some of which may apply. We might be saying the person has psychic powers, performs on stage as a psychic, makes their living doing readings, fraudulently bilks people out of money by claiming paranormal abilities etc. The word has "a" meaning which is multifaceted and contradictory, and all notable ones should be contained somewhere in the psychic article. One part of the meaning of "psychic" is that a person has powers. Another part is that the person may be self-deluded or a fraud. Another is that the person may be an entertainer, comforter, psychologist..... All of these things, or any one of them, may be conveyed by use of the term psychic. It is largely up to the reader to decide which is appropriate.
So to state it the way I have at other times that the meaning of the word "psychic" is "A psychic is someone who has psychic powers, but those powers may not really exist," is not quite accurate. Rather, the word psychic conveys many meanings. The two most important to skeptics and believers, however, are the two I stated- powers and doubt about thier reality. Both of those meanings are contained in the word psychic, and both are reflected in the current Psychic lead, which is well-framed per the ArbCom. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 19:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice prose, but I'm still not buying it. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for giving it your consideration. Antelan talk 00:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who are you talking to? Me or Antelan or Nealparr??

The psychic article says "People who are thought to have these abilities or to be able to produce these phenomena are often called "psychics". " Thus, if we call someone a psychic, is is saying just what Antelan says it should say: "psychic" = "thought to have these abilities," and of course the full understanding would be that the person might or might not. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Antelan's was the nicest. --Nealparr (talk to me) 21:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes, that's true -it was very well done- and UninvitedCompany said "still," which must have been referring to his having not bought it before either. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Saying someone is a psychic is the equivalent of labeling them a faker. It is not necessary to say they are a faker so long as they are labeled as a "psychic". Fred Bauder 13:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification on ED

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not an ED troll, but an interesting question was raised at a recent DRV (see bottom) for it. In Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MONGO, it was ruled that ED links and material is banned from Wikipedia. However, it was questioned in the DRV that even if reliable sources that established notability were found, would it come in conflict with the ArbCom ruling in that case? Kwsn(Ni!) 04:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The ED article itself has clearly posed internal problems for us. I think the turning point for me would be this: Are there sufficient reliable sources about ED which demonstrate that ED so clearly inside our inclusion guidelines that our project would be incomplete without it? If that were the case, I myself would support an amendment to the MONGO decision to permit an article. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my goodness. Well, I can't see much more reason to edit this website if the arbitrators are going to support the recreation of an article about that website which has attacked a number of our contributors in ways that simply cannot be put into words. Oddly enough, the article on me there is hardly one of the worst.--MONGO 22:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relax. We have lots of articles about things, people, and organizations we don't like, and your concern is hypothetical since there aren't reliable sources covering ED. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In my own opinion, the ArbCom way overstepped its proper bounds in imposing a flat and absolute link ban, and this has had ongoing pernicious consequences; one of them has been to turn me from a strong supporter of Wikipedia to somebody who's largely disillusioned and disgruntled, because of my scuffles over this silly policy. Also, labeling people "trolls" for disagreeing with a clique here is hardly productive. *Dan T.* 18:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You don't see us linking pages to uncyclopedia all the time. Having links to ED in individual pages outside of the ED article (if it is re-created mind you) is pointless. Part of the reason for the ban is the numerous amounts of attack pages on the site, how would you feel if someone posted the link to a page blatantly attacking you on your userspace (talk included). Regarding the "trolls", in a nutshell, what they are doing is trolling, just not on-wiki. Kwsn(Ni!) 17:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd find it funny, actually... a while back when I was on both Daniel Brandt's Hivemind and Jeff Merkey's Merkeylaw, with some silly attacks on me in both places, I actually linked to them on my own userpage to laugh at them, something that wouldn't be permitted these days under the silly "no links to attack sites" policy. *Dan T.* 19:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To each their own then. Kwsn(Ni!) 19:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No attack sites was rejected. Or at least the form I have seen was - people seem to be thinking it IS actually policy though! ViridaeTalk 05:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If the article on Daniel Brandt can be a redirect, then surely anything ED-related can be a redirect also. What he's done carries far more clout and legitimacy than what they've done. DurovaCharge! 16:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Instantnood3

The arbitration committee has closed the above case.

Restrictions applying to Huaiwei:

The above is the shorthand restrictions placed on Huaiwei after an ArbCom case more than a year ago. Several months ago, it was found that Instantnood was not only being generally disruptive but also running farms of sockpuppets to disrupt votes/discussions and Instantnood is now permanently banned. Huaiwei hasn't been in any other kind of dispute resolution before or since the Instantnood issues.

It's clear to me that while Huaiwei was wrapped up in Instantnood's belligerence (as were a half dozen others on the periphery) it was Instantnood's wiki-stalking of Huaiwei (which continues with sockpuppets even now) that caused the problem, and not a general problem with Huaiwei as an editor. Without the instigation of a bad actor, Huaiwei is an excellent and dedicated Wikipedian who has been with the project for several years. These restrictions and potential punishments hang on him like an albatross.

I'd like ArbCom to review Huaiwei's contributions since the permanent banning of Instantnood and remove the previous restrictions.

SchmuckyTheCat
  • You mean, like, the six blocks for edit warring he's received since then, most recently a month ago? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 07:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Instantnood was banned on 16 April. Huaiwei was blocked only one time after Instantnood was banned. --Kaypoh 09:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, Huaiwei has one 3rr with one user that is not Instantnood. I think the sequence of that one was, slow revert, Huaiwei realized he went over and reported it, both got blocked. He was also using the talk page to try and work out what was going on with someone belligerent.
One instance does not justify such harsh restrictions. SchmuckyTheCat
Well, that one instance is not the justification, the entire history is. I'd like to see three clean months before I support lifting the restrictions, though. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I believe that in a similar situation recently, the committee voted that someone's probation from a prior case would be ended if he remained out of trouble for a specific period of time. That might work here. Newyorkbrad 16:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: See motion in arbitrator voting section, below. Newyorkbrad 05:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make and vote on such motions. Other editors may comment on the talk page)

Huaiwei (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Note: See also the discussion in Section 2 above.

I move that the restrictions, now over a year old, from the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Instantnood 3 case on editor Huaiwei be lifted. While Huaiwei appears to have been involved in some edit wars and has received a number of 3RR blocks, I do not believe that the probation and limits on participation remain relevant at this point.

As there are presently 13 active arbitrators (of whom one is abstaining), a majority is 7.
Support:
  1. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. James F. (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Paul August ☎ 13:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Kirill 17:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
  1. First, I would like to see a clean block record for at least 3 months and no evidence of edit warring. FloNight 11:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose, per FloNight. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain:
  1. As I suggested above, I'd like to see a bit more time. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand

With the passage of time and Betacommand's continued contributions to Wikipedia, the Committee hereby restores Betacommand's administrative privileges under these stipulations:

  • Betacommand may not operate any bot that utilizes administrative privilege without prior approval. For the avoidance of doubt, the term "bot" is to be construed broadly to include any full or partial automation of the administrative functions not already in widespread use by other administrators. Prior approval may come from the Bot Approvals Group (BAG), or for bots that provide partial automation that would not ordinarily require BAG approval, this committee.
  • Betacommand must observe the notification requirements and delay periods specified in policy prior to deleting images.
As there are presently 13 active arbitrators (of whom one is abstaining), a majority is 7.
Support:
  1. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Raul654 15:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
  1. Uncomfortable with this, given his continually controversial behavior. Kirill 17:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Paul August ☎ 03:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain:
  1. Abstain until I discuss with Betacommand by email his views on blocking established users. FloNight 21:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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