Talk:Low Saxon

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rreagan007 (talk | contribs) at 17:02, 18 February 2022 (→‎Requested move 26 January 2022). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

How many dialects are being spoken by the angels dancing on the head of a pin, by which I mean ...

The difference between Low and High German was illustrated for me as such: in High German, you have a tissue for your nose; in Low German, you have a snotrag.

I have no idea how these are correctly spelled, but something like High "tassenteuch" vs. Low "schneppeldorf". firepink

I've never heard that before, but that's funny!

As well as being a very precise linguistic criterion... ^^

Two small things: First, Low German is a dialect or group of dialects, not a language. Second, is the reference to Low German as the lingua franca of the Baltic region correct? I find that hard -- but not impossible -- to believe. Just checking that it wasn't a typing error. :-) If it is true, where can I learn more about how Low German spread so far afield? GreenPen

Of course Low German is a language. Why do you differ e.g. Belorussian and Russian? The difference between them might be as small as between Low German and German.
Are Russian and Belarusan even that far apart? High German is no more closely related to Low Saxon than it is to Dutch. (By a forgiving definition, of course, these are all the same language; by a strict definition, they are all groups of several different languages.) -- Toby 17:50 Feb 4, 2003 (UTC)
Low Saxon is even more closely related to Frisian, English and probably Dutch than it is to High German -- User:JanTäufer 14:58 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)
Concerning sound shifts?
Why is there a link to create an Occitan Wikipedia, a Moldovan Wikipedia, a Frisian Wikipedia and many other - dialects or languages?? Why isn't there a link to create Wikipedia in Low Saxon? If you click there you only reach nupedia.com.
Why in terms of cause and effect? Probably because Occitan is a well-known invented language, Moldovan has a country, and Frisian has speakers active in Wikipedia -- any of these is likely to get you a link. Why in terms of justification? None. If you want a Low Saxon link, then find out the official language code and bring to Intlwiki-L. There's no reason that Low Saxon couldn't have a Wikipedia. -- Toby 00:08 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)
And where did you get the idea that Occitan is an "invented" language, Toby? It's directly descended from the Langue d'Oc that was spoken in southern France in the Middle Ages, and if anything, if one doesn't consider it a single language, it's because one considers it to be a language group, incorporating dialects/languages/whatever like Gascon and Provençal. It's not spoken by that many people today, but it was the primary language of southern France prior to the French Revolution, and it was still significantly spoken in many areas into the 20th century. Also, notably, it is quite close to Catalan (which has far more speakers than it today), to the extent that one could theoretically consider Catalan to be simply a divergent sort of it, were one to use a very broad definition of what "Occitan" is. -- Travis 2:48, 2 June 2005 (CDT)

Low German has been the lingua franca in this region because the city of Lubeck was the most important member of the hanseatic league in these days. People there used to speak Lübsch, the local version of Low German. For many Baltic cities used to maintain close trade contacts to Lubeck, traders there were able to speak Lübsch. http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/index-engl.htm http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/po-engl.htm http://www.einst.ee/publications/language/history.html

It is my understanding that Low German was spoken by the peasant class, and that High German would have been spoken by the upper classes. The distinction 'low' vs 'high' is based on the class of people that spoke the language. This info comes from the elder people in my community, which was settled by immigrants from northern Netherlands & surrounding parts of Germany. This provides an explanation why there are multiple dialects that are called Low German and High German.

"Low" and "High" refer to the relative elevation of the traditional regions the languages are from: Low German is from the North, which is at or near sea level, while High German (originally!) came from farther south, which is much more mountainous. This is what I have always heard. -Branddobbe 07:04, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

According to this article (and de:Niedersächsische Sprache, which it was based on), Hamburger is a Northern Low Saxon dialect. Northern Low Saxon language implies otherwise. Is it? -- Toby 18:30 Feb 4, 2003 (UTC)

Hello! When does Wikipedia start a version in Low Saxon? -- Horst

The article on Low German states that initial /k/ /p/ /t/ developed to /h/ /pf/ /ts/ in High German and were conserved in Low German. Can you provide examples for all three sounds? I am not sure, but I think that Engl. heart -- Dutch hart -- German Herz come all from */k-/.
Besides, it is hard to give a clear distinction between language and dialect; so, rather don't take an all-too-strict strict position. -- dnjansen 21:39 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the /k/ to /h/... I've heard it developed to /kx/ in some dialects, but stayed /k/ in others. Examples: koek vs. Kuche (no /k/ to /h/ shift), paard vs. Pferd, tot vs. zu. Also you should note that those shifts were only when the sounds occured at the beginning of a word. They changed to other sounds in other positions. Benji man 21:40, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC) P.S.: All non-German examples given are Dutch.

Plattdüütsch => Low Saxon and East Low German

There is the major problem that Plattdüütsch is not only the name for the northern german slang but for some eastern german and ancient polish slangs as well. Anyone a good hint on how to resolve that other than by having three distinct WikiPedia articles for each of those three terms in all WP versions? -- Alexander.stohr 05:09, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why has the interlanguage link been changed to "Platdüütsch"? The language calls itself "Plattdüütsch", with two ts; follow the link and you'll see that. -Branddobbe 17:44, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

Could you include the amount of speakers?--Arjuna 18:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By which I mean ...

By which I mean, the fact that Low German was a group of dialects does not mean that it was not a language, a similar case to that of modern day Norwegian. Robert Greer (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oldenburgisch

As far as I know, 'Oldenburgisch' (this is the High German name for it, as I do neither know a Plattdüütsch nor an English one) is a dialect of Northern (Standard) Low Saxon just like Bremisch or Hamburgisch. Can anyone here confirm that? I must confess, I am from Butjadingen, which is in exactly that region, and still do not know that. (My parents did not teach me the language when I was a child. Today I'm sorry for that, earlier I did not care :-(.) Besserwissi 17:34, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Again Low Saxon vs. Plattdüütsch

After moving the former Low German languages to Low Germanic languages, I've sorted out the links to that page. Since most links did not refer to that group of languages, but rather to the specifically German varieties, I've changed these links to Plattdüütsch. However, I've also noted that Plattdüütsch doesn't figure in any of the language trees on Wikipedia even though this page, the East Low German page and the Plattdüütsch page all agree that Plattdüütsch embraces both Low Saxon and East Low German.

Furthermore, none of these articles describes what distinguishes the different branches of the Low Germanic languages. It would be a real improvement if someone could mention the distinctive features between the Low Franconian languages and Plattdüütsch in general, and more specifically the differences between East Low German and Low Saxon. -- j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 13:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've consulted the Metzler Lexikon Sprache (ISBN 3-476-01519-X) and the site of the Institut für niederdeutsche Sprache. Both sources agree that the subdivision is as follows:
Currently, this article does not fit neatly in this categorization:
Judging from its content, this article can mainly be identified with the Westniederdeutsch from the above sources. However, based on the above sources, the name West Low German seems to be more appropiate, especially in order to match with the article East Low German.
However, this article–especially in the first paragraphs–also contains certain information that belongs not to Westniederdeutsch, but rather to all of Niederdeutsch (recognition by Germany according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages) or even to the entire group of Low Germanic languages (any of a variety of [...] dialects spoken in [...] the Netherlands).
Neither source includes any dialects from the Netherlands, such as stated also in Westplatt. Please provide sources for the inclusion of dialects from the Netherlands! -- j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 12:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
de:Niederdeutsche_Sprache#Gliederung_des_Niederdeutschen (includes a source) and nl:Overleg:Nedersaksisch#Oost-Nederduits both cast doubts on the division East Low German versus West Low German. Sarcelles (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

See Talk:Low Germanic languages#Requested moves. ― j. 'mach' wust | ⚖ 15:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

West Low Saxon

Should this really link hence and not rather to Westneddersassisch ? Sarcelles (talk) 15:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


10,000,000 speakers? ??

I have lived in various regions of Niedersachsen for over 20 years and have yet to meet a single person who can speak Niedersächsisch. From what source is the number taken? Isomorphismus (talk) 00:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 January 2022

West Low German → Low Saxon – much more popular in the sources, see ngram. Heanor (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's one of these things that go by many names. I'd agree with a change to Low Saxon, for the stated reasons, but I'm also content with the current situation where Low Saxon redirects to West Low German, and the alternative name is given right in the intro. LandLing 21:10, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. This is also the primary name given on German Wikipedia. Bermicourt (talk) 08:45, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME based on the Ngrams. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:02, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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