Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Chicdat (talk | contribs) at 10:04, 22 July 2021 (→‎Requested move 15 July 2021: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Former featured article candidateWar in Afghanistan (2001–2021) is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
March 13, 2010WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Typos

First paragraph, last sentence "andwas" appears as one word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.35.95 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 19 June 2013

Under Casualties and Losses on right hand side "but reports suggest a higher number compared to coalition forces" may read better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.91.1 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 20 March 2014

"2001: Overthrow of the Taliban" - boming should be bombing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.22.30 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 9 May 2014

Map of current military situation

The map of the current military situation in Afghanistan is over a year old. I know that not that much has changed since then, but it would be nice if someone could upload a new one and make that reflected in the caption. I'd do it myself except I have no idea how. Thanks. Display name 99 (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I second this request, what is going on in the country? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Someone working for someone probably removed this one https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Taliban_insurgency_in_Afghanistan_(2015–present).svg to lessen the negative PR impact of their forces withdrawing after a 20 year conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.137.44 (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

End of the war

Various sources are reporting the 18 years war has ended after the truce was signed with Talibans on February 29, and now troops are just being withdrawn: [1], [2], [3] , [4] and so many more. According to sources any further actions by Talibans would be insurgency but the war itself has ended with the February 29 deal. Well just pointing out, not an editor of this article so its upto editors of this article to decide. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The withdrawal has begun, but I'd say the war is ongoing at least until all coalition forces have left Afghanistan. Even then, Taliban and ANDSF may continue to fight. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In that case it will be civil war/insurgency. But the international war should be over with foreign troops withdrawal, like the Iraq war (2003-2011), Soviet-Afghan war (1979-1989), etc. Dilbaggg (talk) 04:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm I see what you're saying, make sense. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with much of this The conflict ended for Western forces as far back as 2014 when Resolute Support became the new mission (Advise, Train, Assist). Combat missions officially at that point. Since then its been only minor involvement from Western forces. It has been a largely Afghan Government vs Taliban/Insurgency/Opposition conflict for many years now

Njofallofall (talk) 06:24, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Allied losses

Total dead in the infobox for Allied casualties should be 73,925+. I did the math. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:1D2:DEEE:5BB6:814A (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you have done it then edit it. No one pay heeds to everything on talk page. Khalidwarrior (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Taliban losses?

There are of course no real estimates of Taliban losses. However, there are various sources that have compiled different numbers for different periods. None of them are truly cohesive though

The Watson Institute for example, undercounts Taliban losses. and I will provide reasons as to why that is the case...

take for example the 2016 Estimate https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2016/War%20in%20Afghanistan%20and%20Pakistan%20UPDATE_FINAL_corrected%20date.pdf

This gives a tally 42,100

if we also take the 2019 Estimate https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2019/Direct%20War%20Deaths%20COW%20Estimate%20November%2013%202019%20FINAL.pdf

You will notice that the tally of 42,100 is also used.

The Newest estimate (Which is used within both the Taliban Insurgency, and War in Afghanistan article) give the new estimate of 51,191

Which only incorporates 2 separate 4 month reporting periods for the Ministry of Defense as stated within the source https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/figures/2021/Human%20and%20Budgetary%20Costs%20of%20Afghan%20War%2C%202001-2021.pdf "From July 1 through November 5, 2019, Afghan National Defense Forces reported killing 10,259 militants/insurgents/terrorists and reported killing 10,091 from 6 November to 13 April 2021"


This is a clear undercount, simply considering even from 2016-2019 there were no additions. Within the 2014 version, they admit that any estimates are likely undercounted, and no records are actually kept https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2015/War%20Related%20Casualties%20Afghanistan%20and%20Pakistan%202001-2014%20FIN.pdf


However, I would like to highlight that various sources do give Taliban losses for certain periods of time For example, the "Taliban at War: 2001-2018" specifically page 261 by Antonio Guistozzi gives yearly totals (according to Al Somud) from 2002-2016 (omitting 2013) Overall, we can see nearly 80,000 Taliban deaths during that reporting period.

On top of this, the Ministry of Defense has at times given yearly totals, or various seasonal estimates Take for example this article https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/officials-count-around-30000-war-dead-afghanistan-year Which states in the year 2016, there were 30,000 deaths in the Afghan War, 18,500 of them Taliban Also various reports from the MOD can be found here https://mod.gov.af/en/press-release or also the Twitter account (which tends to be updated more often) https://twitter.com/MoDAfghanistan We see that in this month (June) alone so far over 1,300 Taliban have been killed in ANDSF operations?


I think it would be interesting to incorporate these numbers because as I highlighted above.. the Watson study is very flawed (at least in regards to Taliban figures) However, I am unsure about how to do that They could very quickly increase the Taliban fatalities of the war well over 100,000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Njofallofall (talk • contribs) 05:51, 11 June 2021 (UTC) Njofallofall (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Regards to Afghanistan territorial control map. How can we define it as accurate or impartial?

I add this information also in the Taliban Insurgency page (and Taliban insurgency detailed map page), but I found it relevant here. In this case, I am speaking specifically to the map that comes from the "Taliban Insurgency detailed map" page which can be seen in the section for 2019 in the War in Afghanistan article

Going through the edit sections of this map I have noticed that there has been a heavy reliance on a singular source for the updates? Specifically, an anonymous Twitter account by the name of "RisboLensky" Which seems to be quite a questionable source? (Especially given the accounts political takes on certain issues which seems to be the opposite of impartial).

The fact of territorial control is that it is a contested issue (and often confused as to what "Control" means). There are various sources that give different standards Some of them clearly being Pro-Taliban, and others clearly being Pro-Afghan Government. ^ both of which are sources upon themselves. Each claiming to control the majority of the country.


Various other outsider sources apply different standards, and have come to different conclusions. (Which clearly at times can be debatable to the methodology)

For example, https://www.longwarjournal.org/mapping-taliban-control-in-afghanistan Which applied would give a completely different map lays out a methodology (though a questionable one) that deals with issues

Or perhaps the SIGAR reports (which will return in June) https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2021-04-30qr-section2-security.pdf <-- as you can see it will return to reporting territorial control the last territorial control report was this one https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2018-10-30qr.pdf None the less it will be returning, and will likely provide a different answer IF I supplied the SIGAR map of June 2021, will that then be added and updated to this map?????

There are also other sources that compile claims such as https://afghanistan.liveuamap.com/ which also highlights territorial control or various other sources that give completely different stats https://feminist.org/our-work/afghan-women-and-girls/taliban-controls-3-of-afghanistan/ ^ older of course, and I dont mean for you to use it.. but an example of how "Control" can be used to develop narrative as opposed to reality.

The List is honestly quite endless... and I am curious why we should take this map seriously when it seems to rely heavily on an anonymous twitter account? which absolutely discounts MOD reports https://mod.gov.af/en/press-release and seems to have a great deal of personal bias on certain issues JUST A few examples from the past couple of days......... proving it lacks impartiality and clearly has a lean on this issue.

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397834662492479490

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397901353268228096

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397816361850748929

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397463526810210306

https://twitter.com/RisboLensky/status/1397459159650557954


These are just from the last couple of days, and random ones I could find These are not the comments of an impartial source. RisboLensky has a clear Taliban leaning, and is far more likely to report their claims. While ignoring other claims, and highlighting their own political views ^ this is what I have noticed while going through the claims, though I could be wrong.


So I ask Why are the majority of updates on this page of a singular anonymous twitter account?

This account is used as a source well over 700 times, since October 2018 which in that period saw only slightly above 1,000 separate edits. It makes up the vast majority of claims??????


While all other sources (which give completely different accounts) are completely ignored? Why is this? TRULY Why is an anonymous twitter account with 7,000 subscribers and a self claimed "Marshal and all inclusive, comprehensive and verified troll. Polytheist magician" the very basis of this map???

I find it very silly. Njofallofall (talk) 06:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Njofallofall - The map is out of date anyway since it hasn't been updated since 2019. I agree that if the map is sourced to anonymous Twitter comments then it is not reliably sourced. Time to delete it. FOARP (talk) 09:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
FOARP - Thank You so much for taking the time to deal with this.

Sadly, the same map is still used on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_insurgency and as you can see from the edit history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Taliban_insurgency_detailed_map&limit=500&action=history This anonymous Twitter account is STILL used as the main source for updating this map. There are plenty of more reliable sources that can be used (Some of which I have labeled up above). Njofallofall (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Muttawakil's supposed unconditional offer to hand offer Bin Laden over

I've struck the section discussing this. The only source is IPS which is not an established news service, but instead an NGO. Even taking the source at face-value, this appears to be reporting of how Muttawikil himself described what happened ten years after the fact, and is not corroborated by any other source. FOARP (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Result (as of 30 June 2021)

The result should be "Withdrawal of U.S and their allied forces from Afghanistan" instead of "Withdrawal of U.S forces from Afghanistan". Yamato Bismarck Hood Iowa (talk) 07:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the sole victory condition for US and Allies was complete destruction of the Taliban, we should think about posting it as Taliban Victory. They have endured and seen America and Allies driven out. Taliban win.
The war continues and although the Taliban are gaining ground they haven't won. Other countries & private military companies could join to support the Afghan government. Jim Michael (talk) 15:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We can't base a wiki article on things that could happen, only on what has happened. Furthermore, any private military contractors conducting what would amount to illegal non-state actor action would be acts of terrorism, not war. The Taliban have driven America out, and the sole victory condition America and NATO allies attached to their combat operations was the destruction of the Taliban. The Taliban have won, and America has lost another landwar in Asia.
It would be legal for the Afghan gov to hire PMCs - many countries have done so in various wars. Unlike the Taliban, PMCs aren't categorised as designated terrorist groups. Jim Michael (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How could you say the war is over just because an actor pulled out? The Afghan government still exists and is still fighting the Taliban. There are also other militias who oppose the Taliban for one reason or another that are still fighting too. Wowzers122 (talk) 22:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From the look of things, the Taliban have consolidated control over 3/4s of Afghanistan, essentially being restored to their 1996 extent of territorial control. Most of the government enclaves are isolated and besieged. Would say that’s probably significant to the outcome of the war: that a belligerent reversed near all the coalition gains before the withdrawal is even over. Perhaps it’s worth noting in the results that most of Afghanistan is under Taliban control.131.96.223.33 (talk) 19:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Haymaker

Article needed: Operation Haymaker. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:01, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 July 2021

War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → Afghanistan War (2001–present) – I have two reasons for this move. First, Afghanistan War has 384 million Google hits, and War in Afghanistan has only 304 million, so WP:COMMONNAME applies here. Second, Afghanistan War is shorter and easier to type. 🐔 Chicdat  Bawk to me! 10:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Google hits are a poor metric for determing the common name, and 384m vs 304m is not a very significant difference. Both NGrams and a quick look at the article's references show that the common name is indeed War in Afghanistan. It's also already sufficiently concise. Lennart97 (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If you use quotation marks in your google search you will get 17 million results for "War in Afghanistan", and about 2 million for "Afghanistan War". My preferred title is actually Afghan War but that also has only 2 million results. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It could result in confusion with the Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)ImperatorPanda (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. I'm sorry but calling it "Afghanistan War" is an extremely biased name from an American perspective (we need something neutral for an international audience). The ex-Soviets for example call the Soviet-Afghan War also as "Afghanistan War". And then on top of that there are the Civil Wars (1989-2001) which further confuses matters. --Weaveravel (talk) 15:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drug trade photos

I think it's over the top to have three consecutive images about opium production in this section. One image should suffice. GreenCows (talk) 20:29, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done! --Cerebellum (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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