Talk:Imam Shamil

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Shamil is a really interesting person, and I think that this article really should be expanded and subdivided into different headings. I'm thinking about his origins (I don't know too much about this), his rise to power in the late 1830s, the height of his power in the 40s, the Crimean War and stagnation, and finally defeat and captivity. If no one has any serious objections to expanding the article on Shamil, I'll start the expansion. --The PNM 05:28, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shamil's Nigun

This is probably the same Shamil mentioned in the talks of the Lubavitcher Rebbe:

A story is told of a man named Shamil, a leader of the Georgian tribes that lived in Russia's Caucasian Mountains over a century ago. The Russian army attacked the Georgians, intending to deprive them of their freedom. Unable to vanquish the valiant Georgians in battle, the Russian army leaders proposed a false peace treaty, and thus succeeded in getting them to lay down their arms. Immediately afterwards, the Russians lured the Georgian leader, Shamil, away from his stronghold and imprisoned him.

Exiled and helpless, Shamil yearned for his earlier freedom and fortune. He consoled himself with the knowledge that he would eventually be released and returned to his former position with even more power and glory. His ardent yearning was expressed in a sad yet hopeful song.

Chassidim sing Shamil's melody because its true story is an allegory for the chronicles of the soul. Each soul descends into this world from the heavens, clothed in the body of a human being. Its physical garments, in a sense, are its prison cell, for it constantly longs for the spiritual freedom and fulfillment it knew. It strives to liberate itself from the "exile" of the human body by directing the body's physical activity into the path of Torah and mitzvos, anticipating the time when it will leave this world behind and once again ascend into the lofty spiritual realms.

The Shamil nigun can be listened to from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.224.173 (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Sichos Kodesh of the Rebbe, Simchas Torah, 5719

need references

I just read five different biographies of Shamil, and the one given here is not similar to any of the ones i read. Since he was a local hero it is very hard to find a NPOV text about him, but i still doubt that the one given here is NPOV. References should be given to either make sure that the given information is correct, or to at least give the source of information so that we can see whose POV this is. For instance i find it hard to believe that his sons became Russian army officials, since they were notorious because of their very long war against the Russians. Other sources i found say that they became officers of the Ottoman army, which makes much more sense.SYS64738 09:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Shamil had 5 sons: two served tzar, two served sultan and one died young. Abolen 15:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I still need to see the references to believe that, not only because this idea seems even unlikelier, but also since the objectivity is very hard to achieve regarding historical heroes. There are at least three different stories on the internet about his sons. All should be mentioned and referenced.SYS64738 20:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure, sure. But historical heroes are onе thing, and well-documented army service that ended less than 100 years ago is other thing. Here's biografy of Shamil by Shapi Quaziev (in Russian): Imam Shamil (Hardcopy: ISBN 5-235-02290-4) Abolen 23:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)~

You might want to check out Moshe Gammer's Muslim Resistance to the Tsar. More historical detail than you can shake a stick at.Eva Luna 01:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Would pictures of them in Russian uniform in St Petersburg do? Seriously, his sons' carreers are very well-documented. AllenHansen (talk) 11:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional request for references for the following Shamil while in Russian captivity apparently adopted the line of the Tsar and said that his "compatriots" (many of whom never were loyal to him in the first place, especially the Chechens) should stop fighting as it was pointless. The fight continued, however, as Chechens and Avars dismissed his advice and continued to fight for a couple more years. Shamil's memory now varies from group to group. Among some of the groups that he had considered part of his Imamate (whether they wanted to be part of it or not), like the Chechens, he is regarded as a man who merely went for power, good because he fought the Russia well, but good for nothing else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.28.160 (talk) 01:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The Avar

I just made a small change to the photo caption, since Shamil was in no way a Chechen. He is generally agreed to be an Avar from what is now Dagestan. A popular myth has grown around his 'Chechen-ness' since the current conflicts began in the 1990s.

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I agree that this site needs more references. I am unable to find that Shamil went to Mecca in 1828. I am not disputing that this actually happened, I am just unable to find a scholarly source.

There are no sources as such, but it is generaly accepted. AllenHansen (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

About Baussungur

Stop with chechenian legends about Bayssungur!

Bayssungur from teyp Benoy (teyp of modern chechenian Kadyrov-kollaborants) was NO in Ghunib and NO ONE chechenian was in Ghunib. "Chechenian Warriors in Ghinib" is chechenian Legende--80.237.35.174 09:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No-no, it's not legend! Many historians write about it. For example, Shapiev Kazi, Runovsky (he lived in 19 century and was a sign with Shamil), D.Hozhaev etc.

I can't find a scholarly reference that supports Shamil going to Mecca in 1828. I am not disputing this fact- I just think this needs to be referenced by a scholarly source.

I am going to delete the Abdel Kadir connection. It seems unlikely. a) Abdel Kadir at the time of the meeting didn't have any military knowledge to pass on, as a 20 year old, to the much older more military savvy Shamil. 2) There is no record of Shamil going to Mecca in 1828.

However, Leslie Blanch (in The Sabres of Paradise) writes: "Although it has never been established that Shamyl made a first pilgrimate to Mecca about this time, there is little doubt that he did so, and that he met there Abd-el-Kadir, the fanatic Arab Chieftain, who performed the Hadj in 1828-9. Together these two probably planned their resistance to the Infidel invaders, as part of a widespread Pan Islamic movement." I don't know what Blanch's sources for this are, but it is a widely held view. Certainly later correspondence between Shamyl and abd al Qadir shows a sense of familiarity, and both are photographed together (with the Egyptian Khedive Ismail Pasha) at the time of the opening of the Suez canal. Some versions of the story of this first meeting of Shamyl and abd al Qadir have them together in Damascus as well as in Mecca. And it is known that abd al Qadir took his 'bayat' with the Naqshbandi shaykh Mawlana Khalid in Damascus at this time. Shamyl was, of course, a Naqshbandi (later to become a shaykh of the Naqshbandiyya), and some of Mawlana Khalid's khalifas fought alongside him in the Caucasus. It seems unlikely that, if the two had met at this time, they had talked (as Blanch suggests) about Jihad - it is far more likely that they talked about their respective experiences of the Sufi way. Abd al Qadir had been invested with the Akbarian Khirqa (the mantle of the great Sufi Ibn al-'Arabi) by his father, and his visit to Damascus was also to pay his respects to the 'shaykh al akbar'. Mawlana Khalid lived close to Ibn al-'Arabi's tomb in the Salihiyya quarter of the city, and was also known to have an affiliation to the shaykh.

Chechen politician

I have removed the category 'Chechen politician' from this article. Imam Shamil was born in Gimry, Dagestan, so if he should be listed as a politician at all, he should be listed as a Dagestani politician. Feel free to let me know what you think about this. ForrestSjap 15:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo: Shamil and his sons

Hi, the caption of the photo is totally wrong. Shamil doesn't even appear on the photo. The russian old cyrillic writings on the top tell who the people are. From left to right: Gazi Muhammad's confident, murid Hajio; Shamil's son Muhammad-Shafi; Shamil's sons-in-law: Abdurrahim and Abdurrahman. The biggest caption (bottom) says "Shamil's family". And it says it's a photo (so not a painting by Vassily Tim) and that it was taken in 1860 (so not 1859) in Kaluga (so not St. Petersburg). Would someone please make sure this is corrected (it's been ages I've last edited wikipedia..)

kazim (from az.wikipedia (account doesn't seem to be valid here..)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.236.79.170 (talk) 00:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I finally did it myself. =kazim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.203.17 (talk) 17:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil

From the article 'Crimean War', 'Caucasus theatre' section:

"This was Prince Ellico Orbeliani whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil at Tsinandali."

Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Should something perhaps be included here? Heavenlyblue (talk) 03:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Imagining a Chechen military aristocracy: the story of the Georgian princesses held hostage by Shamil: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02634930410001310535?journalCode=ccas20 Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

A Georgian Princess (Monthly Packet) [A dramatieation] Pages 62-69, 162-169, 260-267, etc.: https://books.google.ca/books?id=gXk3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Prince+Ellico+Orbeliani&source=bl&ots=JuLfn6EleD&sig=OHYQNyePPyE3Vfs0B2yGQD4hgB0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXxu7rrfrcAhVrHTQIHfgMAP4Q6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Prince%20Ellico%20Orbeliani&f=false Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

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Descent and non-English language sources

I see solid sources not in English about the descent of the Imam are deleted. Please explain why with links to the rules, precedents. Now it seems the follower editors of the article are somehow biased. English language can't cover even a fraction of this topic and this rule seems strange, until explained at least. It's like forbidding to support the history of Portugal with Portuguese sources or allowing to support the history of Indonesia in English only. LouisAragon, please help if you can.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Arsenekoumyk I have restored the material. Its deletion was not in line with policy.--Calthinus (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Хаджимурад, the question is discussed here, please raise your concerns and do not remove sources with information from the article like you did here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 09:54, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Хаджимурад I'm asking you again to stop vandalizing the article and pay attention here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)