Talk:Palestinian genocide accusation

It is not a genocide. Statistics show that the Palestinian population is growing constantly — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamiBuzaglo (talk • contribs) 

More section than article

This reads like a section in a relevant article rather than its own article. The title isn't a term of art, but is being used as a target for links in other articles as though it is. It's referenced in a handful of documents with a divergent set of definitions [by which standard the list of genocides would be long indeed] and doesn't need its own entire section in the navbox. – SJ + 22:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed rename + merge

Proposed merge into Israel and apartheid, in a new section about allegations of genocide. The title should be something like the Ukrainian example linked in the last section. – SJ + 01:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Update: Comments on that page pointed out that apartheid and genocide should not be conflated. The merged section moved to Criticism of Israel#Allegations of genocide, which includes a proportionate description of the allegations without undue weight. I changed the link in the proposal accordingly. – SJ + 21:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with a merge. Drmies (talk) 01:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• I also agree with a merge. IshChasidecha (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with a merge.

The title is very one sided. YZM1987 (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

What would you propose renaming it? If you wish, you can create page entitled ‘Genocide against the Israelis’. I think that what you do not perhaps see is that this article is not objectively saying that the violence is genocide, but that some people think it is. The lede even says it is a view, not the certain truth. Scientelensia (talk) 16:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Having an article with this title, and a redirect from an even more inappropriate title, promotes a phrase and concept into search results that mostly appears in highly polarized political propaganda. While there might indeed be more sources for a page on 'Genocide against the Israelis', considering what has passed for political speech in the past few decades, that is likewise not an appropriate title or concept for an encyclopedia article.

The proposal is to merge with an existing page, which both contains many paragraphs that were copied here (there's no reason to conflate apartheid with genocide), offers historical and semantic context, and has an established group of editors to provide feedback. I have made a quick summary + merge, including a few references for each in the merged section. Please be careful about giving undue weight to rare views. – SJ + 20:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

See what you are saying, but this is by no means a rare view. Scientelensia (talk) 21:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

also agree with merge SamiBuzaglo (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I also support the merge Yotamsahar (talk) 19:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support merge, appears to be fringe and doesn't meet GNG on its own.

A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 04:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with merge. Also support renaming to something along the lines of "Accusations of Genocide in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", as the article talks about both directions, yet the title incorrectly refers to only one. omervk (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Then there can be two pages. The allegations against both sides of genocide are separate and should be treated as such. Scientelensia (talk) 09:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree:

• there have been other separate pages on genocides before.
• this article has a different subject

Scientelensia (talk) 12:04, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There are other pages on alleged genocide. The severity and significance of this subject cannot be undermined, which is why we should not merge this article. To merge this subject is to dismiss it. Scientelensia (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support merge. WP:FRINGE WP:POV as stands. Loksmythe (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support merge. Zanahary (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support merge, framing of article prevents WP:NPOV. Marokwitz (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Support merge. Mistamystery (talk) 16:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do not support merge.

  For people who agree, see the discussions below and the discussions in the Apartheid in Israel article, where the conversation was temporarily moved. Scientelensia (talk) 16:36, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do not support merge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1810:CC17:DA00:E1A5:9B83:17AB:DCDC (talk) 21:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Alright, adding a better balance of views and merging into Israel and apartheid#Allegations of genocide. Please move discussion to the talk page there. – SJ + 20:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on that talk page. I find your actions deeply troubling and also simply wrong. Scientelensia (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Please don't remove the banner for a discussion in progress. Your recent additions made this article more unbalanced, with innuendo and misstated data. – SJ + 21:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Misleading viewpoint, blatant tropes of New Antisemitism

The claim that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians is not only factually incorrect but is also deeply problematic and should be seen as demonization of the Jewish State in a larger attempt to delegitimize it. Genocide, as defined by international law, involves the deliberate and systematic extermination of a specific ethnic, religious, or racial group. Labeling Israel's actions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as genocide not only mischaracterizes the complex and highly sensitive situation but also unfairly vilifies the Israeli people as a whole. Such an accusation overlooks the broader context of the conflict, which is rooted in longstanding political, historical, and territorial disputes. Accusations of genocide not only undermine the genuine struggles of those who have suffered from real genocides (such as the Jewish people themselves) but can also be seen as a form of demonization against the Jewish state, invoking harmful stereotypes and perpetuating harmful biases. Constructive dialogue and a nuanced understanding of the conflict are crucial for any meaningful efforts towards peace and resolution. See more on New Antisemitism here. Untruthful and damaging claims that Israel is committing genocide should not remain on a site which is supposed to remain neutral and report objective truths. IshChasidecha (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Your entire post reads like a blog post. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place where you post your personal opinions. We follow what the reliable sources say. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

This article never actually states that it is a genocide, just that a view of it being a genocide exists. Your post reads like a very biased post.

You must try and separate the fact that the Jews have suffered genocide before from the fact that they can commit it now, potentially.

Saying that Israel has committed genocide is not inherently anti-Semitic, as if Israel was not made up of Jews it still could commit a genocide. Scientelensia (talk) 12:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, nobody is blaming the entire people of Israel for the crimes. Scientelensia (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Anyone "could commit genocide." The same anyone "could murder Christian babies." But when thisdemonizing claim is so blatantly false, it's just a modern day blood libel. IshChasidecha (talk) 19:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Again, nobody said the view is inherently true. Also, your opinion seems to be highly biased. Scientelensia (talk) 08:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed the article is rife with misinformation as well as manipulation of facts in order to support ideologies. I fear this article may be a ploy to legitimize the actions of Hamas. This article has anti-semetic motives. Homerethegreat (talk) 19:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

What facts are wrong? Who is supporting a terrorist organisation? What is anti Semitic? Saying that Israel has committed genocide is not inherently anti-Semitic, as if Israel was not made up of Jews it still could potentially commit a genocide. Scientelensia (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Not Genocide

This article is inaccurate, as it falsely claims that there was an attempt to annihilate the Palestinian people. In contrast, there is a documented intention in Hamas' covenant, which explicitly states its primary goal is the annihilation of Israel. Therefore, this article lacks a factual basis and appears to be blatant pro-Hamas propaganda.שלומית ליר (talk) _ שלומית ליר (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The existence of a strong anti-Israel sentiment in Hamas's propaganda does not preclude Israel from trying to infringe upon the rights of Palestinian people. Both statements may be true as they are not mutually exclusive. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 16:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between rights infringement and genocide. 176.231.102.238 (talk) 16:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article is "Genocide against Palestinians is a characterization of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict which argues that Israel has carried out and/or is carrying out some kind of genocide against the Palestinian population, sometimes related to the view that Israel is a settler colonial state."

By doing this, the concept of genocide being committed is acknowledged but neither outright confirmed nor denied. The article merely states that some scholars, activists, and groups have dubbed various Israeli activities as genocide. Whether or not it is genocide or not, it is Wikipedia's goal to accurately and comprehensively cover the various opinions on the topic, hence the existence of this article. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 16:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Novo Tape is correct :) Scientelensia (talk) 15:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Add appropriate content and sources here: Genocide against Palestinians#Rejection of characterization Scientelensia (talk) 16:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, please remove the unrelated images of skulls from Rwanda and the picture of an Orthodox Jew with a flag. These images do not pertain to the subject matter and serve only to reinforce the propagandistic elements in this entry.שלומית ליר (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

What is propaganda? You seem to have a heavy bias. Scientelensia (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

You asked this before below and this is my answer. Read your question below to contextualise this:

That they can be found in Israel bears little resemblance to the subject matter. I invite you to put similar images which relate to Israel on other pages, if you wish, although not this one, as that would be insensitive. Also, the skulls image belongs to the template of genocides and is automatically added when one adds this template to the page. The coffins image symbolise the tragedy of the matter. Even if you do not like Palestinians, you must see that this scale of death, whoever caused it, is a tragedy. The image of the man shows that not all Israelis oppose Palestine. And also, what is wrong with being “ultra-Orthodox”? You sound like you may hold a prejudice in this regard; if so, please say why, if not, I issue my apologies. Scientelensia (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, no matter one's opinion. It is nigh impossible to assert that Israel is commiting genocide against Palestinians and Arabs. I fear much of the text of this article was written with clear political interest, especially concerning the circumstances of its publication (the war between Hamas and Israel). Homerethegreat (talk) 19:37, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

You seem to have an anti-Palestinian bias. Remember that the article presents a SUBJECTIVE VIEW which is presented as such and is not inherently true!! It is presented as an ‘alleged genocide’! How can people not understand this? If you like, you can create an alternate page, e.g ‘Genocide against Israelis’. What do you think, @Novo Tape? Scientelensia (talk) 20:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of Article

This article is clearly politically motivated and against Wikipedia conventions. I propose this article be deleted. Due to the circumstances of the publication of this article. It is very possible that it was written with the intention of influencing people's opinions on the war between Hamas and Israel. Homerethegreat (talk) 18:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Highly lack of WP:NPOV, poorly sourced. In addition to the timing, seems like an ugly attempt to justify the terror attack and the Re'im music festival massacre. A shame that this piece of antisemitic propaganda is gonna probably stay here until a vote. Just shows how messed up and horrible is the bias in English Wikipedia. I'm not gonna be suprised if The Holocaust article or articles related to it are the next ones who are gonna be effected. Trying to rewrite history through Wikipedia. dov (talk) 19:19, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

You do realise that the creator of this article Buidhe, is in fact, one of Wikipedia's most prolific writers about the Holocaust and genocide generally? I really don't think this was a bad faith creation, maybe it wasn't the best idea, but "antisemitic", really? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. And people can add more info to the page, reducing any possible POV, rather than deleting it. Scientelensia (talk) 08:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I support the restoration of this page. For more, see the section about the merge here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israel_and_apartheid Scientelensia (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

(The next section down) Scientelensia (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

If it is so (" that the creator of this article Buidhe, is in fact, one of Wikipedia's most prolific writers about the Holocaust and genocide generally").

then it is not clear the lack of standards of the value's visibility, for example in the pictures in it. About showing a picture of skulls from the Rwandan genocide it is misleading. In addition, a picture of a non-representative anecdotal case of a Jew with an ultra-Orthodox appearance who supports a Palestinian demonstration as encyclopedic evidence for what? Even showing coffins in which it is claimed that they belong to unarmed dead can be found in Israel about jews as well and how is this an example of the issue? מי-נהר (talk) 17:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

That they can be found in Israel bears little resemblance to the subject matter. I invite you to put similar images which relate to Israel on other pages, if you wish, although not this one, as that would be insensitive. Also, the skulls image belongs to the template of genocides and is automatically added when one adds this template to the page. The coffins image symbolise the tragedy of the matter. Even if you do not like Palestinians, you must see that this scale of death, whoever caused it, is a tragedy. The image of the man shows that not all Israelis oppose Palestine. And also, what is wrong with being “ultra-Orthodox”? You sound like you may hold a prejudice in this regard; if so, please say why, if not, I issue my apologies.

If you wish you can create an opposing page (e.g. Genocide against Israelis) Scientelensia (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you'll find that it's the other way around, and the Re'im music festival massacre is being used in the ugly attempt to justify the litany of sins and war crimes that we now see unfolding in Gaza. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I do support the restoration of this page. For my thoughts, see the section about the merge here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israel_and_apartheid Scientelensia (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

(The next section down) Scientelensia (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Using the adjunct 'ugly' on an "attempt" rather than a massacre is where the problem starts. dov (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure it is not lost on you that I was using your own turn of phrase. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:09, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Please do not state that those who are not Pro-Israel are also anti-Semites, as this is deeply alarming and untrue. Many clearly do not understand the concept that those who are against Israel are not inherently anti Jews. Scientelensia (talk) 09:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Add appropriate content and sources here: Genocide against Palestinians#Rejection of characterization Scientelensia (talk) 16:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

100% agree. Is there any way to make the process move quicker of addressing this issue? IshChasidecha (talk) 19:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:Israel_and_apartheid#Allegations of genocide – SJ + 20:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Where people tend to go wrong.

It is not a genocide. Statistics show that the Palestinian population is growing constantly — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamiBuzaglo (talk • contribs)

This comment above demonstrates how people go wrong in this matter, blinded by the contentious subject matter. The article clearly states that the genocide is a “view”, thus acknowledging the subjectivity of the subject rather than calling it the objective truth. Do people understand this? Scientelensia (talk) 15:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, populations can grow due to a high birth rate even when there are frequent deaths. Scientelensia (talk) 17:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Less, if there was any, bias:

I have added this sentence to the lede: The characterization has been rejected by many, but not all, Israelis.

Feel free to add such sentences in order to contextualise the article. Scientelensia (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of Article

Clearly breaches codes of neutrality. Raises serious concerns of abuse of power in order to manipulate public opinion regarding current Israel-Hamas war. Raises serious concerns regarding potential political motives that seeks to legitimize Hamas actions against Israelis.

Due to misinformation, breach of neutrality as well as potential political motivation; I propose this article be deleted as soon as possible. Homerethegreat (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

No, because ... sources Iskandar323 (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Not a reliable source Drsmoo (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Please read my message to you on your talk page and reconsider your actions. Scientelensia (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality.

I have tried hard to make the page more neutral. What else can be done? What does everyone think? I believe it may be time to remove the neutrality notice.

Before you answer, read my opinions on the matter here: User talk:Homerethegreat#Israel and Palestine. This is in response to a specific user. Scientelensia (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2023 (UTC)