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A request for Arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution. Before requesting Arbitration, please review other avenues you should take. If you do not follow any of these routes, it is highly likely that your request will be rejected. If all other steps have failed, and you see no reasonable chance that the matter can be resolved in another manner, you may request that it be decided by the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom).

Dispute resolution
(Requests)
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Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Anachronist   16 June 2024 0/5/0
Rio Grande 223   19 June 2024 0/1/0
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Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Venezuelan politics 25 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation none (orig. case) 7 June 2024
Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads none none 4 June 2024
Amendment request: India-Pakistan none (orig. case) 7 June 2024
Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions none none 10 June 2024
Motion name Date posted
Block of Rp2006 18 June 2024

The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and (exceptionally) to summarily review new evidence and update the findings and decisions of a previous case. Review is likely to be appropriate if later events indicate the original ruling on scope or enforcement was too limited and does not adequately address the situation, or if new evidence suggests the findings of fact were significantly in error.

The procedure for accepting requests is described in the Arbitration policy. If you are going to make a request here, you must be brief and cite supporting diffs. If your case is accepted for arbitration, the arbitrator or clerk will create an evidence page that you can use to provide more detail. New requests to the top, please. You are required to place a notice on the user talk page of each person against whom you lodge a complaint.

0/0/0/0 corresponds to Arbitrators' votes to accept/reject/recuse/other. Cases are usually opened at least 24 hours after four net accept votes are cast; that is, four more accept than reject votes. When a case is opened, a notice that includes a link to a newly created evidence page will be posted to each participant's talk page. See the Requests section of the arbitration policy page for details. "Recuse" means that an Arbitrator has excused themselves from a case because of a possible, or perceived, conflict of interest. Cases which have not met the acceptance criteria after 10 days will be removed from this page.

This is not a page for discussion, and Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment. Please do not open cases; only an Arbitrator or Clerk may do so.

See also



How to list cases

Under the Current requests section below:

  • Click the "[edit]" tab on the right of the screen appearing above the section break line;
  • Copy the full formatting template (text will be visible in edit mode), omitting the lines which say "BEGIN" and "END TEMPLATE";
  • Paste template text where it says "ADD CASE BELOW";
  • Follow instructions on comments (indented), and fill out the form;
  • Remove the template comments (indented).

Note: Please do not remove or alter the hidden template

Current requests

GPS does NOT prove Einstein's relativity

Initiated by Uknewthat at 20:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

SlimVirgin KeenanPepper

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

A group of delusional Einstein's groupies is trying to make the world believe that GPS is a proof of relativity theories. Not! so, says science.

Statement by {Uknewthat}

SlimVirgin banned me repeatedly and deleted information I contributed to Hafele-Keeting and GPS pages. After lengthy discussions a deal was struck according to which he "allowed" (one of SlimVirgin's continuous misuses of powers) me to say that GPS is not a proof of Einstein's theories of relativity. However he lied, joining in anger the others who believe Einstein Albert is a Saint. Below reproduced is that denied information, including verifiable scientific references. Please see discussions on the GPS page for complete argument. Thanks.

==GPS==

It is often mistakenly reported that SR and GR theories are critical in operating the NAVSTAR GPS satellite navigation system. However, GPS was never designed to utilize or test either of the two theories. Upon insisting by some relativity physicists in the late 1990-ies, GPS navigation and control messages were included immeasurably small corrections in addition to the originally pre-programmed position corrections (as due to the atmospheric, signal-multipath and other effects). The Hafele-Keating experiment was one of the justifications why these corrections were added in GPS.

However, the GPS relativistic correction is too small to be measured on Earth using even the most precise (geodetic) GPS techniques so-called differential positioning (DGPS), also called the relative or geodetic GPS positioning. Thus in his classical book GPS Satellite Surveying, Alfred Leick writes (p.170): "In relative positioning, most of the relativistic effects cancel or become negligible." This is because the relativity-predicted values, if real, would amount to less than one half of the normal environmental (insurmountable) geophysical noise. Therefore, geometrical differencing in precise positioning cancels out most of the relativistic effects; the GPS system can perform equally superb without SR or GR theories. Hence no known (scientific or commercial) GPS receiver seems to utilize the so-called "GPS relativistic correction" either.

So, prior to 1990-ies there were no such corrections applied in GPS at all, yet GPS worked fine: "...Changes in the designated Master Control Station (MCS), which maintains the GPS master clock, are not corrected for altitude changes, which cause gravitational relativity shifts." [[1]] (Note the date of the reference.)

The above-cited Leick's book is considered by some to be one of the most authoritative sources on GPS geodesy nowadays. It also lists numerous references that show in greater detail why the so-called "relativistic effects" turn out to be irrelevant for achieving the highest (millimetre-level) obtainable accuracy in precision positioning. Similarly, non-geodetic (navigation) accuracy would not suffer to a noticeable degree either, since, if real, the relativistic effects would amount to a centimetre level, which is less than any other single error-source in modern navigation. For instance, the most reliable utilization of GPS in global navigation, the WAAS system, requires no so-called "relativistic corrections" to achieve its metre-level accuracy.

Hence, there is no evidence at the present that either of the Einstein's relativity theories is critical for the operation of the GPS system as used in local (precision) positioning or global navigation, or that GPS could be claimed as a proof of Einstein's theories." Uknewthat 11:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {write party's name here}

(Please limit your statement to 500 words. Overlong statements may be removed without warning by clerks or arbitrators and replaced by much shorter summaries. Remember to sign and date your statement.)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)

Community Ban for User:Brya

Initiated by --Berton 00:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Request for comments. Attempt at mediation refused. The facts occurred in this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Is_a_community_ban_appropriate_in_this_case.3F here] and in this page here compare with this here

Statement by Berton

I request an arbitration against Users Pschemp, InShaneee and Moe Epsilon, based on the fact that these users abused of the sysops power and they had a behavior frankly hostile, threatening me several times of block and blocking User:Brya without previous consultation to the community to see if would be consensus for an indefinite community ban, what clearly demonstrates a violation of WP:Blocking policy. User: InShaneee tried to be frightened threatening of blockade, well that is a total outrage, besides being an insane attitude, because I think we are civilized people and that are not in a jungle, where a wild animal bites the other unaware! We have to solve the differences in a civilized way and not this stupid way. I believe that a punishment for this type of hostile and abusive behavior on the part of sysops should be exemplary. Besides User:Moe Epsilon removed my comments of the page and deleted them.

Statement by Pschemp

Not sure what Berton is playing at here, or why he's started arbitration after statements like "The fact is this Wikipedia is no doubt an example of DIGITAL MAOISM and I will not contribute anymore. Berton 22:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)." There is a perfectly rational discussion about User:Brya going on at the moment on ANI and the project page with the rest of the community, but since Berton disagrees with the rest of the community (and he is the only one) he seems to think that arbitration is needed. It isn't, there is nothing to arbitrate here. Its been made clear that Brya's block is preventative while his subtle vandalism and POV pushing is sorted out. This filing is nothing more than more disruption by a user who isn't getting his way. Certainly that's obvious if you read the ANI and especially the AN thread. pschemp | talk 00:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to note that Improv has a couple facts wrong down there. One, McDarwin started the poll on TOL, not Petaholmes, and the original discussion was started in a very public forum on ANI, and during that discussion the poll was created and linked ot get some more people (who don't read ANI) and are more familiar with the editor to look at it. Calling it obscure and non-public in his closing is thus not quite true. Also, in reply to CBD, at the time I posted my statement, there was no one else who agreed with Berton. I have said all along, the current block is preventative while the community sorts out what is going on only. Again, I'd like to state that the community is handling this just fine, and no one else is up in arms and ranting about Digital Maoism as Berton is. Certainly there is no administrator misconduct such as Berton claims going on. pschemp | talk 21:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Moe Epsilon

  1. If I wasn't rolling on the floor laughing at the this poorly misguided user and this sorry excuse of an RFAr, I would try to be more serious
  2. I am not a sysop, so you cannot desysop me, which sort of proves you don't have your facts straight.
  3. Your statement saying that I deleted comments is technically incorrect. I cannot delete something, again, I'm not an admin. I redirected the conversation to one point so it could stay in one place.
  4. pschemp and InShaneee were in the right to block a disruptive user how has committed vandalism, engaged in non-NPOV discussions, and inserted original research into Wikipedia. Sysops don't need approval for some things and this is one of them. They are now conducting a Straw Poll to determine what the length of the block should be.
  5. The only purpose of this RFAr is cause more attention to Berton and the banned user and goes against WP:POINT.
  6. The only thing this RFAr could serve as is evidence of how disruptive Berton has been on WP:AN/I, WP:AN and now WP:RFAr. He has completely blown a tiny issue out of proportion and is causing unneeded stress to the community.

Statement by Petaholmes

I started the discussion about a community ban for Brya since he has, and continues to violate several key wikipedia policies like OWN, NOR, CIVIL; I thought it was an obvious case that did not need ArbCom intervention and previous attempts at mediation have been refused. Everyone who commented on AN/I, with the exception of the party asking for arbitration, supported a ban. I think this is clear case of the community enforcing accepted standards of behaviour; nothing has occured out of process; I urge the ArbCom to refuse this case.--Peta 02:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by InShaneee

I don't see that there's much that I can say here; the above users are completely in the right that this is a big, loud, noisy WP:POINT violation. I exchanged I think two comments with this user, I haven't blocked anyone related to this case, I never recieved any request for mediation, this all happened, what, yesterday? And frankly, I hope this user IS blocked following this case as he is wasting everyone's time by demanding that we 'be made an example of'. Yes, I did warn Berton he was on his way to a block, mostly because he showed up on AN:I making wild accusations relating to the 'digital maoism' essay he'd recently posted to his userpage. No community consensus to block? I could have sworn that's precisely what the entire AN:I thread that started this was about! In summary, I can't have abused my sysop powers when I haven't applied any, and Berton has no idea whether I live in a jungle or not. --InShaneee 16:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CBDunkerson

This is an odd case. A user who had never before been blocked or even, so far as I can see, warned of a possible block is placed under an indefinite community ban... normally I'd be crying foul, but given some legitimate concerns of possible 'sneaky vandalism' involving arcane details of botanical taxonomy and widespread strong animus towards the user I think pschemp made the right call in blocking until it could get sorted out. That said, upon review I do think the charges of 'vandalism' have been overblown and that Brya has likely been 'acting in good faith', if in a contentious way. Berton's strong objections to the block, some incivil comments (e.g. "monster") around it, and threats of himself being blocked are thus also somewhat understandable. Less threats / intimidation / hostility on all sides would be a good thing. Brya seems willing to discuss the issues relatively calmly and I think that is the best course for resolving this. Contrary to some of the statements above, Brya does seem to have a few supporters (e.g. Berton, JoJans, TeunSpaans) and several people who support the block, but are less than happy about it. I don't think any of the incivility in this case has risen to the level of requiring ArbCom attention, but there may be some value in reviewing Brya's conduct and coming up with a more 'official' remedy. There was a RfC back in June which covered some of the issues involved. --CBD 18:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Improv

My involvement in this is minimal and nonpartisan. Petaholmes started a vote on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life for a community ban on Brya. I closed the discussion using templates, noting that this resembled QuickPolls (a very old, now-abandoned way users once were banned through simple community votes) too strongly, and was problematic for many of the same reasons QuickPolls were - that Brya did not have ample opportunity to defend himself (being blocked), that bans should come from careful arguments by policy or trusted judgement (admins in some cases, ArbCom, etc). I hope that closing that poll that way was appropriate, but if it was not, I am open to correction by the Arbitration Committee. --Improv 19:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I started a discussion on AN/I. Someone else made a poll on ToL. --Peta 12:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/0/0/0)

  • Accept. Seems to be just enough disagreement about this that a more binding decision by arbcom after considering the evidence may be helpful. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bowling for Columbine

Initiated by PPGMD at 21:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

A RFC and a mediation cabal case have been tried, I skipped the Med Committee because I simply think it would be a repeat of the mediation cabal. All users listed above were notified on their talk page.

This case is pirmarily about the application and meaning of Wikipedia policies as applied to political critics on the Bowling for Columbine page.

Statement by {PPGMD}

This started recently when Schrodinger82 used WP:RS as a reason for removing much of the criticism of the film Bowling for Columbine. When attempting to argue in favor of the inclusion including citing policies that are much more relavent, he engages in Wikilawyering finding little technicallities that support his position rather then following the spirit.

He argues with WP:RS that they are self published/personal websites, we offer to switch them to their books or articles they wrote in National Magizine; he argues that they aren't notable, we argue that they are showing google searches, New York Times Best Seller list, et al; he argues that they aren't experts in film editing, we argue that such expertise is not needed as it's a political movie. It goes back and forth like that.

Here are some of the policies based on who he uses them: WP:RS - A guideline written mostly for citing factual information, no nessarily written for citing political opinions, but the spirit is that you should cite sources that have a reputation of being good. He argues that via the expert clause the critics must be experts in films of some sort.

WP:V - He interpets this as to mean that we must be able to verify that what they are saying is true, not that they said it like the policy says.

WP:NPOV - The user claims on a technicality that since the critics are not experts in film editing, or in any other film making aspect that their viewpoint is not one that matters for this article. We feel that this neglects that fact that the movie makes a political point and this viewpoint is held by a significant minority, thus criticism transcends film making as they aren't trying to argue that Moore used the wrong angle, film stock, or any other particulars to a film maker.

Those are the relavent policies, the user also cities other policies which are out of place in this dispute. Attempts in outside opinions simply end up with Schrodinger saying that they are wrong and citing policies.

I have attempted to propose a compromise as I agree with some of his points, for example I felt that the criticism section was too long and was giving Undue weight to the Pro-gun critics, and I suggested a much shorter version of the section that simply cites Hardy and Kopel as critics and follows all the Wikipedia policies. Schrodinger82 rejected this compromise.

Ultimately I would like to get a ruling on the policies and how they apply in particular to the criticism of Hardy and Kopel. Links:

Response to JzG: Yes it is for the most part a content issue, but it's one that is unlikely to get resolved via any method available to us. The discussion with the user goes round and round. If Wikilawyer is an offense then I support it's actionable, but I don't see anything that shows it's an actionable offense, just seen as a bad idea. Evidence that we have attempted to solve the content issue can be seen above in the Mediation Cabal case, and in the talk page, there are extensive discussions, none going anywhere.

Statement by User:JzG

I'm unclear what's supposed to happen here. The original version was grossly unbalanced in favour of criticism, the vast majority of which completely missed the point (hello, this is satire! it's not supposed to be a balanced and scholarly treatment, or 100% factually accurate in every tiny detail). The current version is better. I don't see the problem. Oh, and it's a content dispute. Where's the evidence of user conduct issues to arbitrate? Guy 21:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mangoe

I came into this as an observer from the Wikipedia:Expert retention effort and its child guideline, Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Except for a minor formatting fix and the removal of a dubious categorization, I have not edited the article. I am largely interested in this out of a concern over the principles that Schrodinger82 is trying to establish.

He is pushing four points:

  • That only film makers and critics may cited as critics of a documentary. I do not accept this theory, and I do not believe that the public in general accepts it. In general the factual content is fair game for anyone who cares to do the necessary fact-checking, but it is especially appropriate for those familiar with the field to do so. And in the case of political and social commentary in a documentary, it is reasonable for writers from the major political and social commentary media (in this case, National Review') to respond.
  • That David T. Hardy and Dave Kopel are not sufficiently notable to merit mention as critics. Those who follow the wikilinks will find articles on both men in Wikipedia, and both are there cited as Moore antagonists. In any case citations in the general media can be found where they are taken as noted opponents to Moore, and these citations have been supplied.
  • That majority acclaim for the documentary negates adverse reviews, no matter how prominent the reviewer. I found it trivial to find negative reviews, includng that in the New York Times. It seems to me that the picture of near universal acclaim is exaggerated.
  • That the statements of Hardy in particular are defamatory and that therefore we cannot recount them. It is clear to me that we can repeat them as long as we make it clear that it is Hardy speaking, and not Wikipedia. (It also seems to me that the claim is exaggerated.)

All of this is part of a strategy to essentially deny that there was any substantial criticism of the film. It is a profound misrepresentation of the reality that Moore is a figure of deepest political controversy. There have been some attempts to rectify prior issues with the article (particularly its structural flaws) but Schrodinger82 is burying the talk page in wikilawyering to prevent efforts from advancing. I am particularly concerned to see that the principles by which he opposes edits do not get taken as precedents for policies or guidelines. I confess that I have already edited Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines to reflect some of the points I have made here; there have been no subsequent changes to the guideline, however, and I think that most people would accept the additions I have made. Mangoe 03:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that I concur with the fifth point raised by Ken Arromdee. Mangoe 12:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ken Arromdee

I think that most if not all of Schrodinger82's removals were inappropriate.

It's hard to fully analyze his reasons for removing everything he removed, because of the huge quantity of text he's written and quoted. But his main reasons--as far as I can tell--seem unjustified. I think Mangoe has summarized them pretty well, though inevitably a few points weren't covered. It seems to me that Schrodinger82 doesn't want to see Moore criticized and is grasping at straws trying to find rules to justify removing the criticism.

However, I'd add a fifth point to Mangoe's four. Schroedinger82 is also pushing the idea:

  • That since he can argue against the criticism, it is less worthy of inclusion. Much of what he has written on the talk page consists of attempts to state where, in his opinion, the criticisms are flawed. Apparently, he thinks that if he can successfully argue that a source's criticism is flawed, the source itself must be a dubious source, and therefore is prohibited under Wikipedia:Verifiability. I feel this is inappropriate; you can't call a source dubious because it gives the wrong answer to a question that is the very reason you're consulting the source. Moreover, we're actually using Hardy and Kopel as a source for "prominent commentators make this criticism", not "these criticisms are correct", so giving bad criticism doesn't make them into bad sources anyway.

As for compromises, I feel that the suggested compromise by PPGMD at Compromise Version Proposed is terrible. It's nearly identical to the version with all the content deleted, with just a brief mention of Hardy and Kopel added. It leaves out many of the controversies and gives the reader few details about what people criticize the movie for. It isn't really a compromise at all.

And I don't believe that the original version violates Undue Weight. The original article had lots of criticism and not much support because much of the criticism is so on-point that it's very hard to dispute. In other words, the article is mostly criticism because the substantive source material is mostly criticism. While there are certainly lots of sources that praise the movie, most of them praise the movie in a general way and don't try to say, for instance, that Moore's association of the NRA with the KKK was factually accurate--because any source who tried claiming that would look very foolish.

I would accept a compromise that removed the Bushnell material (at least until Bushnell is professionally published or quoted in professional publications), though most of it is also said by Hardy or Kopel and should be sourced to them if possible instead. I also wouldn't mind if a "support" section was added to oppose the "criticism"--at least, if anyone *could* find sources supporting Moore on some of the points for which he has been criticized. For instance, JzG has said that the movie doesn't need to be accurate because it's satire. If a commentator could be found who defended the movie on the grounds that it's satire and doesn't need to be accurate, this could go in a "support" section.

Ken Arromdee 04:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved user Jossi

I came across this only today. My concern relates to original research: the editors that have created this article are reporting directly about a primary source (the documentary). As such, the choice of quotes and commentary is original research of the editors of the article. For this article to be compliant with WP content policies, the article needs to report just basic information about what the documentary is itself, and leave it at that. If there are reports by reliable sources that describe this documentary or the controversy surrounding it, these can be used in the article, if properly attributed. Wikipedia is not an investigative journalism site, or an advocay site. It is an encyclopedia that reports what secondary, reliable sources have said about a subject. It is not the role of editors to describe primary sources, in particular when the subject is controversial. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Schrodinger82

The question is whether or not including the cited sources meet current Wikipedia guidelines. I have repeated cited dozens of relevant passages from Wikipedia showing that they do not, and repeatedly asked them to cite their own passages showing that they do. They have yet to do so. The only passages that have been cited have been grossly cited out of context (e.g., citing a passage saying that that pop-culture articles don't need peer review, while ignoring the fact that it also says that standards for RS still apply. Citing a passage saying that we can cite professional journalists, while ignoring the fact that it specifies only "well known" journalists, and that caution must be exercised even then.). Currently, the criticisms section makes up for roughly 50% of the article, but 100% of the opinion. The plot outline is neutral. We have a length criticism section, but no prasie section, despite the fact that an outstanding 96% of professional film critics have given this movie a positive review. This, despite the fact that Hardy and Kopel do not meet the standards as professional film critics or as regarded as subject matter experts on the factual statements, despite the fact that they are vastly in the minority in terms of their opinion, and despite the fact that they aren't commenting on statements of facts in the first place. Most of the removed criticism is in reference to arguments that Moore never actually makes. For instance, Ken comments that " If a well-known criticism of Moore is that he blames the NRA for not cancelling uncancellable events, that can go in the article." The problem is, Moore never actually blames the NRA for this in the movie, so why should we include a criticism of something that he never actually did? I think that's a pretty impoirtant point, don't you?

The main problem is that the parties involved have never established a clear standard within Wikipedia standards that Hardy and Kopel have met, that haven't already been met by those in the majority. For instance, Kopel is a professional opinion journalist? The same goes for professional movie critics. Hardy has published a book? Many film experts and critics have published as well, many of them in an academic context. Academy Awards are nominated by your peers within your own category, meaning people who have produced entire films. At what point do you say, "Yes, not only do the critics deserve 100% of the viewpoints like they have now, but they also deserve to have their section twice as long? as it is currently?" The fact is, Wikipedia standards are very clear. When you post potentially defaming comments on a living person, the standards are higher, rather than less. Stating that "Moore claims that the B-52 plaque" says the following is a comment on the movie, and can be factually verified. Stating that "Moore's movies are fictional and uses misleading edits" is a comment on Moore's character, reputation, and integrity as a film maker, and is a subjective comment. Again, WP:V standards are clear on this matter, otherwise, you would see people posting whatever rumors they can from the National Enquirer, because "Well, we're not saying that Sharon Stone had a threesome with aliens, it's the national enquirer saying that!" The exception is when these accusations becomes a news story in itself with actual consequences. For instance, if the Academy Awards was reconsidering it's decision because of Hardy, that would be worth reporting. But right now, all we have is "some guy on the internet believes." In that case, NPOV guidelines further add that you don't give undue weight to minority opinions.

PPGMD attempts to bypass current standards on RS, by arguing that Hardy backs up up his points and is a reputable source. For instance, he claims that "if you ever read Hardy's site you will see that he quote reviewers (not average joes but professional film reviewers) that come to the conclusion that Moore is attempting to draw viewers to." So I decided to humor PPGMD and check for myself. The number of "professional film reviewers" cited? Zero. Hardy's sources include a user review on popcornmonsters.com, a socialist website on geocities, and a user comment on blogcritics.org . All of this points to dubious reliability with poor research skills. The fact that PPGMD could walk away from this believing that Hardy cited "not average joes but professional film reviewers" shows a severe lack of scrutiny, that needs to be reinstated. Further, the fact that David Hardy would cite reviews to prove his point shows that he himself believes that they are the best judge of deception, so why can't we consult the professionals directly, and leave Hardy out of this? PPGMD claim that RS doesn't cover political opinions, therefore, we don't need to follow any rules regarding them. In response, I should point out that:

  • RS does mention partisan sources, so yes, I think that it does apply.
  • While I don't think you have to be an expert on documentaries to dispute the factual content of the film (Provided that you're an expert on the factual content), I do think you would need to be an expert on documentaries to make a claim that "this film doesn't qualify as a documentary." Particularily when the documentary filmmaking community strongly disagrees. If Hardy and Kopel's assessment is valid and deserves to be noted, then it shouldn't be hard to find a recognized authority in the industry who agrees with it. I don't think that we would ever cite Morgan Spurlock as an expert when it came to defining US Policy, and I don't think that we should cite Hardy as an expert when it comes to defining documentaries.
  • While the movie may have political views, that does not warrant a response in itself. You would not, for instance, see Alberto Gonzales's views on torture listed on the page for "Critical Mass" episode of "Stargate Atlantis," even though that episode seems to express the political view that torture is wrong. Most books and movie are to some extent political. Allowing political commentary on their pages sets a dangerous precedent.
  • If such commentary is important, then it why not leave that to pages that discuss the controversy directly, rather than on the page for BFC? WP:NPOV has clear guidelines for this, labeled "Making necessary assumptions."
  • Where exactly is the extent of BFC's political commentary to begin with? Can anyone list any specific policies that Moore is advocating for? If we can't even determine what Moore is advocating, then why do we need any political commentators in the first place?
  • What makes Kopel and Hardy recognized autorities on those policies to begin with? For instance, if Congress was debating a new law based on the above policies, would any of the major news stations stations invite Kopel and Hardy to share their expert opinion on the subject?
  • PPGMD and other have claimed that we need to report the controversy, but have yet to establish what the threshhold for controversy actually is. Simply saying "Moore made a film, some people didn't like it" is not a controversy in itself. I mean, you might as well introduce sections to the "Casablanca" section, stating that some people think that the film is overrated.
  • Has BFC ever gone beyond just expressing political views, and being the center of a political issue? For instance, "Huckleberry Finn" has been at the center of debates on censorship. This has been highly contested within the context of school libraries. Hence, you could bring in commentators who agree with or against it's banning. Uncle Tom's Cabin has been credited by Abe Lincoln for causing the civil war. Can the same be said for BFC?

As for the complaints of user misconduct, so far, PPGMD and others have yet to cite a single policy/guideline that I'm violating. In fact, Mangoe's main complaint is that I have "come up with a novel way to lawyer around the restrictions of disruptive editing by twisting other policies," in other words, the fact that I am following the policies in a way he doesn't like. Their main acccusation isn't that I am violating policy, but that I am biased, because I think that giving 75% of the article to a non-notable, non-expert minority viewpoint is too much. This failure to AGF makes any attempt to make create consensus impossible. I should also point out that Mangoe has admitted to not even having watched the film and has relied entirely on Anti-Moore sites for his viewpoints, so the accusations of bias are highly ironic. His comment that we should include the NYT review violates the standards of "undue weight," unless he's saying that the NYT is notable enough so that we should include what it says in every film article on Wikipedia, period. The fact that he would go so far as to rewrite the WikiProjects Style Guidelines just to suit his own ends, with no attempt at discussion or consensus on their talk page, with no real film background or major participation within the WikiProjects Film commnity, and again without even having seen the film in question, is greatly disturbing. But even by your new standards, your arguments still don't apply, because because you're not referring to direct statements of fact from the movie.

Ken, I would like you to cite anywhere that I have pushed this idea that "'since he can argue against the criticism, it is less worthy of inclusion". Find a direct quote. You can't, because I haven't. My point all along has been that Hardy and Kopel have are dubious, non-authorative sources that don't meet the standards for reliability and reputability, and in Hardy's case, doesn't do basic fact checking. Thus, they do not meet the basic standards for inclusions. Does that mean that I can argue against the specific points as a result of that? Well, sure. It's pretty easy to come up with arguments against dubious, non-authorative sources that don't meet the standards for reliability and reputability, and don't do basic fact checking. But I have never once stated that we should remove them as sources because I could argue against them. Further, if Wikipedia states that we shouldn't include sources of dubious fact checking, and I show examples where their fact checking is dubious, then it's a completely valid point. The other thing is this. PPGMD was the first to bring up the point. My response was, "All of this is completely tangential, but..." Key phrase their is "tangential." Do you know what a tangent is? Geometrically, it's about as far away from the core as you can get. My argument was not contingent on this point, despite the fact that you claim that it is

But further, now you're contradicting yourself. If I do argue against your points, then you claim that that should somehow invalidate my stance that they don't meet Wikipedia standards, even though I already said that my entire argument was merely tangential to the discussion, except to prove that Hardy performs dubious fact checking. But if I don't argue against your points, then you'll claim that "many of the Hardy and Kopel criticisms are damning, and impossible to counter. And, as a result, nobody tries." So how am I supposed to respond? Note that nowhere in your argument do you state how Hardy's claims meets Wikipeida guidelines, and why he shuld be included in the first place. Your NRA/KKK argument is a strawman, because I have never disputed the inclusions of that. The fact is, you can't demand a "pro" source rebutal to something that was never news in the first place, and Hardy/Kopel were never "news," and therefore never warranted a "pro" response in the first place. You're never going to see Newsweek run an expose and point-by-point rebutal against someone who's biggest claim to fame was a single segment on "WAVE TV," because no one would know who Hardy was, and fewer will have read his site. You're not going to find anyone writing a book disputing Hardy, because most people don't care. But it's not hard to find people who are to David Hardy what David Hardy is to Michael Moore. So if we can include people far less notable than Michael Moore in response to Moore, then why can't we include people less notable than David Hardy in response to Hardy? Just because a comment goes uncontested on the Internet by the mainstream press doesn't magically make it true, and doesn't magically make it notable. I should also point out that Moore has placed a short response on his page, which Hardy has yet to counter. By your own standards, that's must be because Hardy knows that Moore is right. And if Hardy knows that Moore is right, then why is Hardy notable? Think about it. BTW, by defending the claims based on the fact that they "are damning, and impossible to counter", you are pretty much admitting that these claims are defametory, and presented as true. Good job.

One more note: "Controversy" is defined as "a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion." Controversy has to involve some sort of prolonged debate or dispute, presumably among people who would have something specific to debate over (e.g., a specific policy or decision.) Hence, "one side X, the other side doesn't care, except in passing" does not constitute an real controversy. Similarily, if the controversy is limitted to internet blogs and web pages, then it doesn't really qualify as a public controversy, and therefore isn't very notable. We have no evidence that the Academy Awards even considered revoking Moore's award on the basis that it didn't fit the standards of a documentary, much less that there was a "prolonged dispute over it." No prolonged, public dispute means no controversy, and no controversy means nothing to represent. -Schrodinger82 09:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {write party's name here}

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/0/0/0)

Black People Article

Initiated by --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

administrator/moderator Jossi [2], user Zaphnathpaaneah et al.

dispute resolution have been tried with this article already!

There are black people outside of Africa and the Western Hemisphere who are historically black. Despite evidence given, it has been ignored.

Statement by {Zaphnathpaaneah}

I have taken great effort to resolve this endless and mindless dispute regarding the Black People article. However time and time again, reasonable action is met with predictable yet unreasonable results.

  • I created a page called What is a Black person (mirroring the successful What is a Jew page which had helped clear up confusion in the Jewish page. Someone decided to retitle the page "Definition" of a Black person, thereby again, altering the language in such a way to distort the direction of the article.
  • I agreed with the silly use of "Irish" in the article as there are people known as "Black Irish", however again, there were editors that wished to disrupt and would put "Black Irish" more prominently in the page than any group of black people.
  • I stayed out of the discussion for days at a time, and others stepped in, and as before, efforts to honestly resolve the dispute were met with ignorant assumptions that there are simply no native black people outside of Africa and slavery-imported descendants in the Americas.
  • Moderator Jossi therefore asked that I present reputable references.

I presented http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/11/27/2003212815 [3]. http://academic.reed.edu/formosa/texts/Reclus1884.html [4] These articles discuss the historical indigenous inhabitants of Taiwan. Widely known to be the ancestors of all the other black Asians of the pacific rim. Clearly in the article multiple times the writers describe the people as "black people". Jossi's response to this evidence? "According to one of the articles the "Formosan Negritos, survivors of an old race now almost entirely extinct". It does not say anything about these being "black people". What we need is a reliable source that describes what is considered to be "black people". If there are no such sources, then this article needs to go to AfD. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) " What Jossi does is ignore what's in the article "According to the native reports, some dwarfish black tribes also dwell in a highland region towards the south. " [5] 2nd to last paragraph. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My request is that the arbitrators agree to retain the inclusion of asian groups long historically considered to be black, with no prejudice. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jossi

I am not a "moderator", but someone that got involved by the request of an active editor of that article, to look into disruptive editing patterns of some users. My view is that this is a content dispute that is and can be further resolved by involved editors by applying the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process. RfArb are the last resort for disputes and the ArbCom does not deal with content disputes. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Whatdoyou

Zaph asks editors to considers Asians Black with no prejudice but he shows prejudice against the Black irish who were also historically described as Black. They too were discriminated against and described by terms like "White Negroes" and "niggers turned inside out".[[6]]. I think the entire Black people article is POV and should be redirected to the much better cited Definitions of black people article. Zaph acts like he's on a mission from God to tell the world who is truly Black, but unless your skin is the color of charcoal, none of us are truly black. Black is just a social/racial category that's been applied and defined in different ways, hence the Definitions of black people article is more encyclopedic and less POV.__Whatdoyou 15:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kobrakid

Zaph may consider South Asians/Pacific Islanders black but here are a bunch of actual cited definitions of black people that clearly contradict the idea that South Asians are black:

  • The U.S. census say a Black is “a person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro,"or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.[[7]]"


  • Dictionary.com and thefreedictionary.com defines "Black person" as "a person with dark skin who comes from Africa (or whose ancestors came from Africa) [syn: Black, Black person, blackamoor, Negro, Negroid][[8]][[9]]


  • Sally Satel of the Policy Review stated “The entities we call ‘racial groups’ essentially represent individuals united by a common descent — a huge extended family, as evolutionary biologists like to say. Blacks, for example, are a racial group defined by their possessing some degree of recent African ancestry (recent because, after all, everyone of us is out of Africa, the origin of Homo sapiens)."[[10]].


  • Page 42 of the abridged version of "Race, Evolution, and Behavior" states: "In both everyday life and evolutionary biology, a 'Black' is anyone most of whose ancestors were born in sub-Saharan Africa[[11]].

Just because zaph can find a source describing South Asians as black does not make it an undisputed fact that deserves undue weight in wikipedia. Here's a very reliable source (nobel prize winner) saying bill clinton is black[[12]] but that doesn't make it an undisputed fact. Kobrakid 23:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by {write party's name here}

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/0)

  • Please provide evidence of a conduct dispute. Reject until then. Dmcdevit·t 19:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

JJay

Initiated by Arbusto at 17:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

JJay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [13]

I can't even engage this user who removes my messages from his talk. I wanted to do an rfc, but as an admin pointed out there needs to be others in the dispute, and this user only makes a few edits (as explained below) and no one else is involved.

Statement by Arbusto

JJay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) does not contribute to actual articles (since I opened this at the AN/I JJay has editted a sex toy article), but merely votes in afds. Recently, he has almost exclusively limited his activites to stalking my afds. This includes the current Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Geneva Theological Seminary. There is only two articles he has been concerned with in the last 7 days: One is a sex toy afd and the other is my afd.

This user has been doing this to my edits since April and most recently confronted him on his talk and he gave this reply: "If you nominate articles for deletion you should expect to encounter differing points of view." Independently another admin addressed his behavior, but that admin had to step away from wikipedia.

Examples of the disruptive behavior in my afds in the past few weeks:

Clearly this user is stalking me.[15]

Trying to address these issues with this user is not possible as he removes comments from his talk page and does so repeatedly.

Currently, the user claimed to have links to prove WP:V of an article I put up for deletion. User won't supply them, and having a 6+ month history with him I believe he is lying. He has exhausted WP:AGF and is being disruptive. Arbusto 17:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved party W.marsh

To simplify things and so I can understand the issue better, I've broken it down by complaints raised.

  1. JJay removes comments from his talk page. This is not very civil, but it's not vandalism or anything blockable either. Arbusto didn't mention it, but JJay calls him a troll repeatedly, which could be taken as a personal attack.
  2. JJay does not contribute to articles, based on the claim that he's just editted one article in the past week. This fails to mention his past year of making productive edits to a wide range of article. JJay clearly makes a considerable contribution to articles.
  3. JJay votes in a lot of AfDs. That's simply not an inherently bad behavior by any definition.
  4. JJay is stalking Arbusto, primarilly by voting often in AfD's nominated by Arbusto. This is a trickier one, but at a glance it seems just as plausible that JJay votes in a lot of AfDs and Arbusto unavoidably runs into him a lot. Even if JJay is just voting in "Arbusto's AfDs" (unlikely), "following someone around" in itself is not blockable, it has to be combined with other problematic behavior. It seems his comments in the cited AfDs are arguments for keeping the articles, not harassment of Arbusto. JJay often expresses unpopular views, he often argues with Arbusto... this is not harassment, it's a difference of opinions.

JJay has been somewhat incivil, okay. Maybe that, in combination with possibly Wikistalking Arbusto, is enough for ArbCom to look into this. But it's a pretty big maybe, I personally don't think JJay is trying to be disruptive, or has done anything warranting arbitration. On WP:PAIN it was mentioned that Arbusto should be the one being looked at, no opinion on that yet. --W.marsh 21:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (somewhat) uninvolved party Brianyoumans

I looked at the examples given above by Arbustoo; I think they are good examples of how Arbustoo manages to get into arguments with people by agressively pushing his opinions in AFD discussions and elsewhere. I think that JJay has been provoked into saying some things he shouldn't have.

I think Arbustoo has a bad habit of refusing to accept other people's opinions in discussions, demanding more and more verifiability until the person just gives up because they don't care that much about the subject. If you look at almost any AFD he initiated, you will find him agressively challenging many of the "keeps". (For instance: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Geneva Theological Seminary, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Texas Baptist College, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Longview Baptist Temple) His responses are usually not unreasonable, but he seems to insist that everyone who makes a vote opposing him document their views. On the other hand, he sometimes AFDs things without doing proper research himself in advance as to notability. (See, for instance, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Darrell Bock)

Someone should admonish JJay that he really should leave things on his talk page. Brianyoumans 22:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Please limit your statement to 500 words. Overlong statements may be removed without warning by clerks or arbitrators and replaced by much shorter summaries. Remember to sign and date your statement.)

Statement by uninvolved party Dr Zak (talk · contribs)

My involvement with User:JJay is small - I ran into him several months ago at Nude beach, trying to cull the overabundance of external links the page then had. [16], also see Talk:Nude_beach#External links. JJay has a penchant of including trivia beyond the point of absurdity, and this is also borne out in his edits to the external links guideline, see Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_3#Edits_from_User:Aaron_Brenneman and especially Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_3#Protected where he doesn't contribute to help the discussion advance.

One must grudgingly admire the subtlety of the trollery. It has been an ongoing problem for a while, and it needs to stop. Dr Zak 04:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/1)

  • Comment - there appears to be some incivility here on both sides, but I don't feel convinced that this is enough to make an arbcom case. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requests for clarification

Requests for clarification from the Committee on matters related to the Arbitration process. Place new requests at the top.

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eternal Equinox: clarification on what to do for other user/ Extraordinary Machine

I'm having a major ongoing issue regarding an inappropriate block and a massive misuse of sysop abilities, and I wouldn't be surprised if one thinks I'm simply placing this here because User talk:Velten was protected not long ago. I am editing from an IP address because the original operator of User:Eternal Equinox wants to return to Wikipedia, but does not want to use the same account as I (User:Hollow Wilerding) currently am. I'll understand if this is removed, but there's no other way to ask this as of now.

While I'm here, I'd like to request something of the arbitration committee. In the past few weeks, I've been receiving increasingly abusive blocks from User:Extraordinary Machine which range from reasons such as "removed a template that I think should have stayed there" to assuming that I've edited from an IP address when it can't be proven. Again, I'm sure this will be ignored and removed altogether, but his abuse has got to stop. I'd provide diffs, but most are currently on User talk:Velten and I'm not up to it since this is likely not going to stay here. If I'm going to be placed on an ArbCom decision, there are going to be circumstances under which I can become blocked, because EM has so far abused it to his likening, which is evident through the following:

  • First I made two edits to Loose (album) and Promiscuous (song) where we held a debate. Extraordinary Machine kept reminding me that I'm not supposed to engage in edit wars, but I was trying to express my view on the matter. He then went ahead and blocked me for a week because of this and called it "harassment".
  • He gives me three-weeks worth of a ban for this and this. How in the world does this warrant a block?
  • Because an IP address (74.117.11.247 (talk · contribs)) edited Cool (song) with a similar edit summary to mine (which I do admit, find somewhat peculiar, and wonder if someone's out to get me), I'm positive Extraordinary Machine used this as an excuse to restart the three-week ban over again. I don't even know who this person is!

I've already waited two a half weeks based on his original ridiculous block. I'm not waiting again for something I didn't do. Can the ArbCom please do something? Thatcher131 (talk · contribs) said that he was concerned about this block and that it wasn't within the ArbCom's scope, which if I look at WP:RFAR/Eternal Equinox, is over two weeks the original punishment. This user is now deliberately trying to keep me away.

Could something be done? 64.231.64.221 20:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Highways

What would the proceedure be for getting off probation? There were four users placed on probation, SPUI, PHenry, JohnnyBGood, and myself. SPUI did have some run-ins at WP:SRNC, but has left. PHenry has not edited since the conclusion of the case. JohnnyBGood has drifted away from highway articles a bit, editing other articles. (but in effect not doing any mass moves). I started WP:SRNC, and the poll has concluded, and mass moves are being done to move the pages to the agreed upon locations. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current probation is worded
2.1) Should SPUI, JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, and PHenry disrupt the editing of any article which concerns highways he or she may be banned by any administrator from that article or related articles. All bans are to be logged...
I have to ask—what would you do differently if the probation were not in effect? What specific benefit would accrue to Wikipedia if the probation were lifted? As long as the parties involved continue to behave civilly and avoid the destructive behaviour that led to the arbitration in the first place, the probation won't be tripped.
I'm extremely pleased to see things finally being worked out. I remember the bad old days with the move warring, and the blocks, and the bloody stupid namecalling, and the pages and pages of sniping on WP:AN, and the borderline wheel wars that resulted, and the month it took to deal with the arbitration from submission to close. I'm enjoying the peace and quiet. I really don't want to go back to that mess, and I'm quite comfortable leaving the probation in place; I like having a remedy in place that encourages participants in the naming debacle to think twice before opening a new can of worms. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, the only thing that bugs me is the word "probation." I have to ask, if there was no probation, wouldn't it be the same? Considering that if other users did the same actions they would be blocked too? I'm not asking for the probation to be removed right now, I'm just seeing how I would go about it. In reality there is a new user who is trying to open another can of worms related to the naming convention stuff, but he finally realized that he was getting nowhere. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If a new editor (or a 'new' editor) shows up in the highway naming disputes, I would be inclined to give that editor one polite, friendly, civil, and patient explanation of the current situation and the arbitration from which it arose. There's no reason, after all, to bite a newbie who innocently stumbles on the dispute.
If the polite and friendly explanation didn't work – and I wouldn't proceed if that condition hadn't been met – I for one would be willing to entertain, support, and enforce community-imposed article bans on parties not explicitly mentioned in the existing arbitration. (Such bans would best be requested/proposed on WP:AN/I.)
I can't see how the solution to bad behaviour by new parties is lifting restrictions on the old parties. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well my concern is I'm wondering what difference the probation makes, if anybody can be blocked. Not that I'm asking for it now, though. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Probation does two things (as I see it). First, it allows an otherwise good editor to be banned from specific articles that he disrupts while allowing him to edit other articles and without having to block his account entirely. For example if Joe Smith is passionate about birds and Star Trek but only disrupts articles about birds, he can still edit Star Trek articles. There is very little precedent (as yet) for a community imposed article ban, so this would be difficult to apply to new editors. Second, it lifts somewhat the need to take an editor through all the prior steps of dispute resolution. A new editor who is disruptive needs to be treated per WP:BITE and helped, guided, hand-held, or whatever, until it becomes absolutely neccessary to impose sanctions. A prior editor on probation is on notice that, having gone through the dispute process in the past one way or another, is not entitled to the same gentle and forgiving treatment. (No opinion on the issue lifting probation in this case.) Thatcher131 12:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Warren Kinsella

I hate to be a pill, but in this case, two arbitrators amended the prinicple

  • A set of users or anonymous editors who edit in the same tendentious pattern or engage in the same disruptive tactics may be presumed to be one user. The provisions of an arbitration decision may be enforced on that basis.

with the addition

  • Yes to this when the ArbCom has had time and reason to come to grips with a situation. It is not a great idea for individual admins to apply the same reasoning, on the fly. Mistakes then get made.

Arthur Ellis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is under a 5 day block for disruption and sockpuppetry. 64.230.112.190 (talk+ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)) today performed characteristic vandalism, including calling Warren Kinsella names [17] and blanking a section of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement [18]. Two other IPs 142.78.190.137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 64.230.111.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), which are consistent with Ellis' venues and manner, also edited articles from which Ellis is banned. Based on the findings in this case, should this IP be treated as an Ellis sock (in which case triggering enforcement against Ellis), or should they be treated as de novo vandals. Thatcher131 20:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another wrinkle for clarification. The arbitrators' ruling is
"Arthur_Ellis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned indefinitely from Warren Kinsella and articles which relate to Canadian politics and its blogosphere. Any article which mentions Warren Kinsella is considered a related article for the purposes of this remedy. This includes all talk pages other than the talk page of Mark Bourrie.:
"Today one of the IPs mentioned above made this edit, removing the Warren Kinsella section from the Bourrie article. This edit raises the question whether Mark Bourrie is still covered by the ban. Bucketsofg✐ 22:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I assume that means he is banned from all related article and talk pages including Mark Bourrie but not Talk:Mark Bourrie. Thatcher131 00:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the exception is to permit him to comment on the article about himself. Fred Bauder 20:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That is my reading of the remedy. FloNight 05:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still wondering whether to hold Arthur Ellis responsible for the contributions of the IPs. Thatcher131 05:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's the judgement call of the administrator who is familiar with the problem and the edits. If you are reasonably sure it is him, go for it. Fred Bauder 20:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Fred. Thatcher131 18:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more request for clarification.

"Arthur_Ellis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned indefinitely from Warren Kinsella and articles which relate to Canadian politics and its blogosphere.:

Does that include the Rachel Marsden page? Marsden has been involved in Canadian politics. Geedubber 23:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does. Dmcdevit·t 15:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Sathya Sai Baba

Statement by Andries

  1. Does not linking to purportedly unreliable websites also include the homepages of critics with their own articles of Sathya Sai Baba e.g. Robert Priddy (see [19]), Basava Premanand, M. Alan Kazlev (see here [20] one of the webpages on the website authored, owned, and maintaind by Kazlev, linked to in his Wikipedia article), Sanal Edamaruku, Babu Gogineni, the late Abraham Kovoor, and the late H._Narasimhaiah? If the answer is yes, how can this be reconciled with a seemingly contradictory guideline WP:EL that states "Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if there is one"? SeeWikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/#Robert_Priddy for a description of this dispute. (amended 09:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC))
  2. Does not linking to unreliable website also include wikipedia user pages such as user:Andries See [21] #Do unreliable websites also include the websites created and maintained by user:SSS108 especially for Wikipedia. In certain cases such as this one [22] the webpages on this website are simply copies that SSS108 took from the webpages of exbaba.com [23]
  3. Is it okay to use webpages with copies of reputable sources on purportedly unreliable websites as convenenience links in the references. See e.g. here [24]If the answer is no, how can this be reconciled with a seemingly contradictory guideline Wikipedia:Citing sources regarding intermediate sources that states "A common error is to copy citation information from an intermediate source without acknowledging the original source." (amended 11:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC))
  4. User:SSS108 removed a lot of information from the article talk page [25] that I had moved from the article [26] to the talk page [27]. In spite of my request to do so he did not justify in specifics why this removal was either justified by WP:BLP or the arbcom decision regarding posting external links. I object to mass removals of information from the talk page that are not motivated in specific terms if and where it violates WP:BLP or the arbcom decision. SSS108 stated the intention to remove more of my future comments from the talk page [28] Is SSS108’s or my behaviour a violation of talk page etiquette?
  5. This may not be the place for it, but I also want to express my concern about the number of disputes between SSS108 and me on the Sathya Sai Baba article and related articles that seem to increase in the course of time. If it continues like this, then I will file two requests for comments per week without any end in sight. Regarding Pjacobi's request to step aside, I would like to point out that I am by far the greatest content creator on all articles related to Sathya Sai Baba during the past years. In the weeks that I was away from the article no new content or hardly new content was added to any of these articles. Andries 16:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC) amended 18:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andries 13:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC) added question about contradictory guidelines. 11:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC) added new point expressing concern about the number of disputes. 16:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC) 18:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SSS108

  • Point 1: Wiki pages about a certain person can include a link to his/her homepage. The link Andries was/is trying to include on Robert Priddy's Wiki page is not his homepage. It is an Anti-Sathya-Sai-Baba Site (one of three maintained by Priddy). Priddy's homepage is already listed on his wiki page.
  • Point 2: Andries agreed to the neutral geocities site in mediation with BostonMA [29]. This site does not link to or promote any pro/anti site. Furthermore, the articles that Andries claims were taken from the exbaba site are not copyright protected to the exbaba site (nor were they ever originally published on the exbaba site). Therefore, the exbaba site cannot claim copyright status to the articles in question.
  • Point 3: If the reputable sources in question are duplicated on (never originally published on) biased, partison and controversial websites (such as the exbaba and saiguru sites), I think WP:RS prohibits this. Also, JzG expressed the opinion that citing these sources on any non-reputable website is a copyright violation [30] [31] [32].
  • Point 4: See FloNight's Thread [33] & Tony Sidaway's Thread [34] & My Thread [35].
  • Point 5: Pjacobi requested both Andries and me to step aside from the Sathya Sai Baba article [36]. I expressed my willingness to do so 3 times [37] [38] [39] . Andries has not expressed any willingness to step aside even once. Andries is reintroducing controversial edits without obtaining consensus. Andries should step aside and let other editors work on the article and he would not have to be repeatedly challenged. I am not the only editor disagreeing with Andries. All the other editors disagree with him about his recent edits. Even the person who responded to his RFC [40]. Yet Andries is still fighting it. SSS108 talk-email 07:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony Sidaway

I want to comment here on my dual role in this matter. My first response on this was that it seemed to be a matter for administrators to resolve, and I investigated as an administrator and warned Andries politely in my role as an administrator that in my view and that of other admins he was contravening the ruling in the arbitration case.

Andries has come back politely with what amount, in my view, to clear signals that he requires much closer direction on this matter. I suggested that clarification from the arbitrators might be a good way of resolving this matter, and his query here is the response. Andries has shown by his responses and actions that he is eager and willing to comply with the arbitration and in my role as a clerk I commend his queries to the Committee, While this is clearly a dispute that could have become very rancorous, it seems to me that Andries is doing his best to avoid that path and seek clarification. I also commend SSS108 for his civility in the course of expressing a difference of opinion in a forthright and honest manner.

I hope that this is not "crossing the streams". I hope it's clear that my views as an administrator and as a clerk are quite distinct. My regard for both participants here is very high. Their honesty and civility is impressive. --Tony Sidaway 02:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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